Contesting kills me--help!

I'm building a new Pander deck, which will have Gratiano as a star player. Basically, if I don't get Gratiano into play, I fully expect to lose that game. Of course I plan on making absolutely certain via Effective Management and 3 copies of Gratiano that I draw him. I'm just worried someone else will draw him too. Any advice? I practically can't pass votes without him, so I don't believe Praxis: Solomon will help, and I don't have Temporis (nor will I graft it on) so that's right out too. I could play Thanks for the Donation, but that's hard to defend, and I don't think Betrayer will go far enough nor do I see any other options. Anyone got any ideas? -- Brian

[ quoted text not captured ] Cairo Int'l Airpor can be used -- swarm over any uncontrolled vampire owned by anyone playing Lasombra who gets more than three counters on him. Detection, Fame, Haven Uncovered, Pentex Subversion, anything to make Gratiano less appealing for your opponent to pay to contest him. Or even needling him into torpor with your weenies (plus Ivory Bow, Improvised FT, trap and Molotov, or whatever) might help. But those only help if the other guy gets Gratiano out before you do.

[ quoted text not captured ] its an inherent risk in choosing a very popular vampire if it really worries you include Praxis: Solomon. Cryptic Rider, Dia los Muertos, common grovelling and backstabbing can pass it. Maybe you already have a Legacy of Pander going. Never say you can't pass a vote. include golconda maybe and offer your opponent to blow up his copy or face an contest. as a pander deck you can probably weasel yourself to some sort of arrangement by offering con boons or whatever. remember, your opponents probably won't enjoy contesting either. Frede

LSJ wrote: <snip lots of preventative measures> LSJ's right, prevention is after all better than cure. And to ensure you do get Gratiano first try recruitment instead of, or supplemental to, the effective managements...

LSJ wrote: > firstconform...@aol.com wrote: > > I'm building a new Pander deck, which will have Gratiano as a star > > player. Basically, if I don't get Gratiano into play, I fully expect > > to lose that game. Of course I plan on making absolutely certain via > > Effective Management and 3 copies of Gratiano that I draw him. I'm > > just worried someone else will draw him too. > > > > Any advice? I practically can't pass votes without him, so I don't > > believe Praxis: Solomon will help, and I don't have Temporis (nor will > > I graft it on) so that's right out too. I could play Thanks for the > > Donation, but that's hard to defend, and I don't think Betrayer will go > > far enough nor do I see any other options. > > > > Anyone got any ideas? > > Cairo Int'l Airpor can be used -- swarm over any uncontrolled vampire > owned by anyone playing Lasombra who gets more than three counters on > him. Yeah, but only works if your *prey* is playing Lasombra. :-) If one of your cross-table allies is playing Lasombra then they probably won't bring up a Gratiano if you've already got one in play. They might even be happy about it if you've got some Con. Boon in your deck and are willing to throw an occassional one their way. Ultimately, though, I'd just roll the dice and hope for no other Gratiano. If I need to adjust when another Gratiano comes up, I'd make the adjustment with deals or threats rather than devoting card slots to the effort. -Robert

In message <1150212368.4...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, firstco...@aol.com writes: >I'm building a new Pander deck, which will have Gratiano as a star >player. Basically, if I don't get Gratiano into play, I fully expect >to lose that game. Of course I plan on making absolutely certain via >Effective Management and 3 copies of Gratiano that I draw him. I'm >just worried someone else will draw him too. > >Any advice? Alter the deck's construction. One example of a similar deck that springs to mind is a Salubri deck that Rob Treasure used to play some years ago. 3 copies of Matthias were the Salubri content. The rest of the deck was a lot of Dominate weenies. This worked well because when he didn't draw Matthias, he could cycle cards like Spirit Marionette, relying on swarm bleed to see him through the bad times - as well as having a useful army of support vampires for bounce, hunting etc. the rest of the time. Similarly, if things don't work out with Gratiano, you'll want to have a deck that still has something left. For example, if Gratiano is (repeatedly) rushed, you're going to run out of combat defence some time. Then he dies. Then your deck dies. So use other tactics to help out. A scattering of, say, Computer Hacking can help. If you have specific disciplines, you can go for those too. Of course, you may be using Pander for Legacy of Pander, with Gratiano to help pull that off, but it may be possible to work the deck differently - perhaps just using a few Crusades instead, on a wider clan-spread of vampires, but all Sabbat and with better disciplines. If you're trying to get votes passed, an early bleed (to get the Edge) and the vote from a political action card very early can help. You won't be contesting Gratiano at that point hopefully, since it would hopefully be your second turn. And lo, you suddenly have an Archbishop - and are things looking quite so shabby then? Other cards like Bribes can help. Bribes in particular is good. First, you gain a pool. Second, it very often gets people saying "Oh, go on then" to get a pool, rather than anything else. And so on. What you want will depend on your deck. But if someone throws a Protect Thine Own on Gratiano, pushed to the limit and with a Closed Session, do you just pack up and go home? If people see that Gratiano is a key vampire, they will target him - so you should be providing yourself with more or better (more secure) options. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

firstco...@aol.com wrote: > I'm building a new Pander deck, which will have Gratiano as a star > player. Basically, if I don't get Gratiano into play, I fully expect > to lose that game. Of course I plan on making absolutely certain via > Effective Management and 3 copies of Gratiano that I draw him. I'm > just worried someone else will draw him too. Do what everyone does, if an ally plays the same clan: talk. At the moment you notice someone plays Lasombra (by bringing out a small Lasombra or by discarding an OBT card), tell him you absolutely need to have Gratiano otherwise you will not survive or make pressure. In Germany people usually speak in riddles in that situation ("I need the Lasombra eight cap with the many votes.") But good players always know, whats going on. Frank

Of all the options suggested, I would recommend: 2x golconda 2x praxis: solomon as the most card efficient approach. Golconda has a lot of general utility, to keep players in the game, dish some punishment out, and in the ultra-cornercase to manage your pool before a Parity Shift or Personal Involvement. If a contest is likely, Praxis Solomon means you can make a deal with someone somehow. Unless your using 4+ effective management, I would include 4 copies of Gratiano - when I build solo vamp decks I use 4-5 copies if I feel I need them in my opening draw. I'm curious to see what sort of Pander/Gratiano deck you're building. Once you've tested it out, consider posting it (or just email me if you don't mind). Cheers, d [ quoted text not captured ]

If a vampire with Fame goes to torpor and then gets CONTESTED, what happens if that vampire comes back into play in the torpor region? Is the 3 pool effect of Fame activated? I believe the burn 1 during untap is not avoidable by ordering the untap, because once the Famous vamp, Gratiano in this case, came back into play the Fame effect would have to be resolved (it isn't in play to be ordered around before then). So if you choose not to yield a famous vamp in torpor and win the contest, do you have to burn 1 or 4 pool in celebration? [ quoted text not captured ]

On 14 Jun 2006 07:32:26 -0700, "d" <david.cor...@gmail.com> wrote: >If a vampire with Fame goes to torpor and then gets CONTESTED, what >happens if that vampire comes back into play in the torpor region? You start paying 1 pool per turn for a famous vampire in torpor. Any card that returns from being contested is turned face up in the untapped during the untap phase. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/ Section 4.1 If all other copies of a card you are contesting are yielded, then the card is untapped and turned face up during your next untap phase, ending the contest. >Is the 3 pool effect of Fame activated? Nope. >So if you choose not to yield a famous vamp in torpor and win the >contest, do you have to burn 1 or 4 pool in celebration? One.

> If a contest is likely, Praxis Solomon means you can make a deal with > someone somehow. I've found this to be true for any deck that the table ISN'T scared of; however, when playing Panders, people won't work with you. It's like they see the orange and they just go crazy. > Unless your using 4+ effective management, I would include 4 copies of > Gratiano - when I build solo vamp decks I use 4-5 copies if I feel I > need them in my opening draw. I am. I'll paste the decklist below. > I'm curious to see what sort of Pander/Gratiano deck you're building. > Once you've tested it out, consider posting it (or just email me if you > don't mind). Here you go: --------------------------------------------- 3 Gratiano DOM obf OBT pot 8, Lasombra 1 Miguel Santo Domingo cel for POT PRE 7, Brujah Antitribu 1 Lena Rowe aus obf pre 3, Pander 1 Mitchell, The Headhunter obt pot 2, Pander 1 Gillian Krader ani dem 2, Pander 1 Christine Boscacci dom vic 2, Pander 1 Royce dom 1, Pander 1 Olga Triminov vic 1, Pander 1 March Halcyon for 1, Pander 1 Huang, Blood Cultist pro 1, Pander 1 Feo Ramos aus 1, Pander 1 Basil obf 1, Pander 1 Angela Decker pre 1, Pander Library: (76 cards) ------------------- Master (30 cards) 2 Blood Doll 1 Creepshow Casino 2 Dreams of the Sphinx 8 Effective Management 1 Elysian Fields 2 Fear of Mekhet 2 Information Highway 2 Obfuscate 1 Parthenon, The 1 Political Hunting Ground 3 Powerbase: Madrid 1 Purchase Pact 2 Storage Annex 1 Waste Management Operation Action Modifier (22 cards) 2 Cloak the Gathering 2 Elder Intervention 4 Forgotten Labyrinth 7 Lost in Crowds 7 Private Audience Political Action (18 cards) 3 Cardinal Benediction 7 Consanguineous Boon 2 Domain Challenge 2 Kine Resources Contested 2 Legacy of Pander 1 Rumors of Gehenna 1 Year of Fortune Reaction (3 cards) 3 Deflection Equipment (3 cards) 3 Sargon Fragment, The The biggest problem I have right now is that I spilled a huge cup of water in my car when I stopped suddenly, which also sent my cards flying into the huge puddle of water. :( If you have any idea where to buy common Sabbat singles, or Sabbat vampires, let me know! I need a Forgotten Labyrinth, Consanguineous Boon, Royce, etc. Lucky I have like 8 Legacies of Pander, eh? Anyway, about the deck, the idea is that Gratiano with Cardinal title and/or Powerbase: Madrid is a lot of votes, but Private Audience means you pretty much automatically pass whatever it is you're calling. LoP is only for when votes are close and it would get you vote-lock; other than that, discard it, or people will gang up on you. Bring out Gratiano, then lots of panders, then Con Boon for pool gain until you can oust opportunistically or pay for Miguel and oust with brute force. I've actually won two qualifiers with a version of this deck that used !Malks instead of Gratiano, but it got stuck when people had too many Sabbat votes. This Gratiano build was made specifically to address that. Really, !Malks with other +vote solutions may be better, cause the basic obf on Gratiano kinda sucks, I'd rather have !Malks with more votes, but I can't think of anything that I'm not using, besides Crusades, which will probably fail. Suggestions welcome. -- Brian

firstco...@aol.com wrote: > The biggest problem I have right now is that I spilled a huge cup of > water in my car when I stopped suddenly, which also sent my cards > flying into the huge puddle of water. :( If you have any idea where > to buy common Sabbat singles, or Sabbat vampires, let me know! I need > a Forgotten Labyrinth, Consanguineous Boon, Royce, etc. Lucky I have > like 8 Legacies of Pander, eh? > I assume this is so you can keep your Pander deck to a "pure" Sabbat-only build? If so, I have a fair number of Sabbat commons and would be glad to swap out card-for-card, since I typically don't care what card version I own. (The only exceptions are things like Smiling Jack, where I greatly prefer the CE artwork, and a few of the commons that got much better art in the Sabbat set.) Post or e-mail a list of which cards you need, I'll see if I can help you out, either at Origins or via mail. - Pat patrick dot lusk at comcastNIHILSPAMANI dot net

I put a huge stack of college textbooks on top of the cards, and I feel that today is the first day the whole stack is guaranteed to be completely dry! Some cards weren't able to flatten completely under the books, and are wrinkly or warped. Others lost their firmness, seemingly for good. Two Effective Managements actually smell like they have mold on them, so they're garbage. Overall, I saved many more of them than I thought I would have been able to, especially thanks to the wonderful Sabbat cardstock. Let's just say that if you have a Sabbat card which gets soaked in water, and it is next to a card from Gehenna, then the Gehenna card will get ruined from the water and the Sabbat card will be fine. > I assume this is so you can keep your Pander deck to a "pure" > Sabbat-only build? It's not all-Sabbat anymore, just as close to it as I can get. Some of the cards (like Effective Management) weren't printed in Sabbat. > If so, I have a fair number of Sabbat commons and would be glad to swap > out card-for-card, since I typically don't care what card version I > own. (The only exceptions are things like Smiling Jack, where I greatly > prefer the CE artwork, and a few of the commons that got much better > art in the Sabbat set.) Alright, well perhaps you could suggest cards which you'd like to swap set-for-set, and we could do that, too. I don't like the CE Smiling Jack, for example. > Post or e-mail a list of which cards you need, I'll see if I can help > you out, either at Origins or via mail. Alright, I'm not going to Origins, but I'll send you an email right now. [ quoted text not captured ]