Madness Network Weirdness

This happened last night in the pub, when we were all a little bit merry, and i think we probably played it wrong technically, though overall it worked out ok. i was Anam's predator. She had the Madness network out. At the end of my turn, she did some Madness Network actions. In response to the first of these actions i second traditioned Lucian awake, but did not block. Then, when her actions were over, i bled [GtU] using lucian as MY Madness network action. Eventually we convinced ourselves that this was illegal because i had played a reaction card when it was still my turn. i think, in fact, that this WAS alright. However, i'm far from sure that Lucian had not already bled on that turn, so the action would have been illegal under NRA, and also i am not sure about using the Madness Network in this way. thoughts? clarifications? abusive comments about sleazy malky decks? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <8mbah1$b7v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] OK, i've been using Networks for years and think i can help. First off you use it at the end of the minion phase, _not_ at the end turn. Secondly, 'A ready untapped minion can play a reaction card in response to an action taken by another Methuselah's minion' Rulebook 1.6.3 (5). So that was OK. NRA applies to vampires using network actions, so you have to keep track. If it didn't, things would to totally horrendous. However, NRA only applies to each indivial's turn so if you can find a way to untap your Malkav you can use it to do the same action on different players turns (shortly before the rest of the table beats your head in). If more than one player has Malkavians that wish to act (and they don't have to be ready- they can leave torpor etc) then precedence to act goes clockwise around the table staring with the controller of the network. Problems usually arise with OOT Masters like Rotchreck (sp?-mangled), Archon Investagion and DI which the victim players can not use because it is her turn. People always forget this. Although with Archon Investigation it does make for good entertainment when you remind them. matt. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8mbah1$b7v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, legb...@my-deja.com wrote: > This happened last night in the pub, when we were all a little bit merry, > and i think we probably played it wrong technically, though overall it > worked out ok. > > i was Anam's predator. She had the Madness network out. At the end of my > turn, she did some Madness Network actions. In response to the first of > these actions i second traditioned Lucian awake, but did not block. Then, > when her actions were over, i bled [GtU] using lucian as MY Madness > network action. Eventually we convinced ourselves that this was illegal > because i had played a reaction card when it was still my turn. i think, > in fact, that this WAS alright. However, i'm far from sure that Lucian > had not already bled on that turn, so the action would have been illegal > under NRA, and also i am not sure about using the Madness Network in this > way. > > thoughts? clarifications? abusive comments about sleazy malky decks? *Boo, hiss* Sleazy Malk decks suck! (Will that do?) With the untapping, my thinking is that even though it was still your go, it was outside of your minion phase, so none of your minions were _acting_. With this being the case, surely you should be allowed to react in the normal manner. As long as Anam went first, then all should be equitable. As for the subsequent action, it depends what Lucian did in his normal turn - if he bled, then surely the golden rule about repeat actions applies. Ho hum DH UGPOW [ quoted text not captured ]

legb...@my-deja.com wrote: > i was Anam's predator. She had the Madness network out. At the end of my > turn, she did some Madness Network actions. In response to the first of "At the end of my minion phase, she...", you mean (Madness Network text). > these actions i second traditioned Lucian awake, but did not block. Then, "... but the block attempt failed (because the acting minion went to 3 stealth, for instance)", you mean. Second Tradition requires a block attempt. > when her actions were over, i bled [GtU] using lucian as MY Madness > network action. Eventually we convinced ourselves that this was illegal > because i had played a reaction card when it was still my turn. i think, You are free to play reaction cards on your own turn - reaction cards are not restricted by whose turn it is. Reaction cards can only be played in response to the actions taken by other Methuselahs' minions, so are typically played on those other Methuselahs' turns, but if those other Methuselahs' minions take actions on your own turn, you are still free to react. > in fact, that this WAS alright. However, i'm far from sure that Lucian > had not already bled on that turn, so the action would have been illegal > under NRA, and also i am not sure about using the Madness Network in this > way. It would be illegal. Madness Network actions can only be taken after you have "finished all of [your] minion phase actions." meaning that you are not going to be taking any more actions this minion phase. Even if you could, Madness Network also specifies the ordering to apply if more than one Methuselah wishes to take actions: clockwise. Meaning the standard "clockwise from the active Methuselah" - so you would have to take your Madness Network actions first (if you could take them at all). Then your prey, then your grand prey, etc. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In article <39895D31...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > legb...@my-deja.com wrote: > > i was Anam's predator. She had the Madness network out... [snip] > > Even if you could, Madness Network also specifies the ordering to > apply if more than one Methuselah wishes to take actions: clockwise. > Meaning the standard "clockwise from the active Methuselah" - so you > would have to take your Madness Network actions first (if you could > take them at all). Then your prey, then your grand prey, etc. > Wow. I never knew that. That's actually really important as you get doubley screwed. The first chance you get to launch any reply actions will be at the end of your prey's turn. That's quite odd and not that intuitive in this case. I see where the 'active Methuselah' clause comes from, in that other cards that start actions round the table operate in the same way. It's odd because it's one time where the active player is not always the controller of the card generating the effect. Interesting rules post. hmm. matt. [ quoted text not captured ]

i've tried to understand what you guys have written but now i'm even more lost that last night. (maybe its possible i'm taking way too many drugs..maybe not) did we do it right last night? or not? please answer. anam

[snippity snip] > > these actions i second traditioned Lucian awake, but did not block. Then, > > "... but the block attempt failed (because the acting minion went to 3 stealth, > for instance)", you mean. Second Tradition requires a block attempt. mmmm...mmmmmmm Very interesting thread. My head hurts. Reading down i'm curious to know where Deflection type cards sit along side Second Trad. as a LOT of players have been using it lately. eg. I use Second Tradition to wake in response, do I 'have' to attempt the block ? and is the +2 intercept mandatory ? If so when (if at all) in the action/wake/reaction dynamic can I choose to deflect? Rob T --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.166 / Virus Database: 79 - Release Date: 20/06/00

"Rob Treasure" <Rob.Tr...@btinternet.com> wrote: > Reading down i'm curious to know where Deflection type cards sit > along side Second Trad. as a LOT of players have been using it > lately. Hopefully, they've been using correctly. > eg. I use Second Tradition to wake in response, do I 'have' to > attempt the block ? and is the +2 intercept mandatory? Yes and yes. That's been true for both the VEKN and NJL since 7/7 at least. (the difference is that in the NJL, the Prince must be tapped to use it.) > If so when (if at all) in the action/wake/reaction dynamic can > I choose to deflect? After your block attempt has failed. Regards, Noal McDonald -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] No, for three reasons: Madness Network actions occur during the active Methuselah's minion phase, not at the end of her turn. Second Tradition requires a block (and cannot just be used to untap and watch). You cannot make use of the Madness Network on your own turn. After you have finished your (normal) minion actions, your Prey's Malks can take actions, then your grand-prey, etc. until your get to your predator (clockwise around the table), after which point the Madness Network actions cease. [ quoted text not captured ]

Rob Treasure wrote: > eg. I use Second Tradition to wake in response, do I 'have' to attempt the > block ? and is the +2 intercept mandatory ? If so when (if at all) in the > action/wake/reaction dynamic can I choose to deflect? Yes. Yes. After your block fails (i.e., after the acting minion's stealth surpasses your intercept, or when some other effect cancels your block, like Elder Impersonation.) See the on-line official text of Second Tradition: "+2 intercept. Also usable by a tapped Prince or Justicar, even if intercept is not yet needed, to untap and attempt to block with +2 intercept." [ quoted text not captured ]

Can I 2nd Trad to untap a vampire and "attempt to block" an action which I cannot block (eg. through day op)? What if I could not block it because it was across the table (not predator or prey), and I had an eagle sight available to use. Could I untap through 2nd Trad, and decline to play the Eagle Sight, hence untapping without blocking? What if I claim to use the 2nd Trad to untap in the hope that I will replace the 2nd Trad card with an eagle sight, which would enable me to block? In article <3989C886...@white-wolf.com>, [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 03:14:40 GMT, hel...@my-deja.com wrote: >Can I 2nd Trad to untap a vampire and "attempt to block" an action >which I cannot block (eg. through day op)? If you do not have the opportunity to block, or cannot make the attempt to block the action, then you cannot play 2nd Tradition, which requires an attempt to block. If someone Day Ops an action, you can't 2T after the Day Op hits the table. >What if I could not block it because it was across the table (not >predator or prey), and I had an eagle sight available to use. Could I >untap through 2nd Trad, and decline to play the Eagle Sight, hence >untapping without blocking? You would have to play Eagle's Sight *PRIOR* to playing 2nd Tradition in order to gain the opportunity to block the action. Then you could attempt to block with 2nd. There is a gotcha in this, yes - if you're tapped, you cannot play Eagle's Sight, and therefore cannot play 2nd Tradition to untap - you'd have to Wake, Eagle's Sight "as if untapped", and THEN play 2nd Tradition to actually fully untap yourself. Anneke's special gets around this, since she always has the opportunity to block. Enzo's special would as well if he had a Writ of Acceptance and a Praxis. >What if I claim to use the 2nd Trad to untap in the hope that I will >replace the 2nd Trad card with an eagle sight, which would enable me to >block? See above. Can't go in that order. =) -- Derek Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta

>Yes. Yes. After your block fails (i.e., after the acting minion's stealth >surpasses your intercept, or when some other effect cancels your block, >like Elder Impersonation.) yeah but a lot of people just wake and auto deflect. does that mean know that they have to attempt to bloke no matter what, so that if there is no stealth, they then can't deflect?? regards anam

[ quoted text not captured ] Wake and deflect is fine. (Not sure what "auto" deflection is.) But your can't Second Tradition and Deflect without a block attempt (that eventually fails) - Second Tradition (unlike Wake) requires a block. See the card text (posted elsewhere this week, and available from the White Wolf web page). [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 07:39:36 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> >Wake and deflect is fine. (Not sure what "auto" deflection is.) > this is autodeflect. wake up, no bloke, just immediatly deflect. >But your can't Second Tradition and Deflect without a block attempt (that >eventually fails) - Second Tradition (unlike Wake) requires a block. See the >card text (posted elsewhere this week, and available from the White Wolf web >page). thanks, thats sorted some problems out. cheers anam