Rules question: AK-47

Just a quick question about the AK-47 If a minion armed with a AK-47 dodges as their first strike and then gets an additional strike via superior quickness or the cel version of hell for leather, are they then entitled to the optional additional provided by the AK-47? Card text would seem to indicate yes as the have still struck with the AK, but I'm not entirely sure. Any thoughts or rulings around about this? Cheers Sutekh_23

[ quoted text not captured ] "A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat." [6.4.3]

[ quoted text not captured ] What about the "this additional strike card does not count against this vampire`s additional strike effect limit for this round"?? As I see it you should be able to use AK-47 additional after using both of this cards: Hell-for-Leather, Combat, anarchAnimalism/Celerity/Obtenebration, C , [TR] Requires an anarch. Only one Hell-for-Leather may be played at a given Discipline each combat. [ani] Strike: dodge, with an additional strike. [cel] Additional strike (that doesn't count against the limit). [obt] Play if this anarch is ready and the opposing minion is not. The opposing minion's controller burns 2 pool. Quickness, Combat, 1 blood, Celerity, R , [Sabbat:R, SW:R, FN:PA] [cel] Additional strike. [CEL] As above, but this additional strike card does not count against this vampire`s additional strike effect limit for this round. A vampire may only play one Quickness each round. ----- AK-47, Equipment, 5 pool , R , [LotN] Weapon. Gun. 2R damage each strike, with an optional maneuver each combat. When bearer strikes with this gun, he or she gets an optional additional strike this round, only usable to strike with this gun.

[ quoted text not captured ] True, unless the card breaks those rules (which are the 2 cards I am referring to) You still comply with the cardtext of the AK by striking with it, or are "not counted towards additional strike limits" cards somewhat misleading? Cheers Sutekh_23

sutekh_23 wrote: > On Oct 16, 1:49 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> sutekh_23 wrote: >>> Just a quick question about the AK-47 >>> If a minion armed with a AK-47 dodges as their first strike and then >>> gets an additional strike via superior quickness or the cel version of >>> hell for leather, are they then entitled to the optional additional >>> provided by the AK-47? Card text would seem to indicate yes as the >>> have still struck with the AK, but I'm not entirely sure. >>> Any thoughts or rulings around about this? >> "A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per >> round of combat." [6.4.3] > > True, unless the card breaks those rules (which are the 2 cards I am > referring to) Very good. > You still comply with the cardtext of the AK by striking with it, or > are "not counted towards additional strike limits" cards somewhat > misleading? Not misleading at all. Explicit, even. So, what was the question, then?

[ quoted text not captured ] the question is the same as it was from the start, do "non restrictive" adittionals allow you to access the inherent additional from the AK? Like

On Oct 15, 12:05 pm, sutekh_23 <beck...@aapt.net.au> wrote: > On Oct 16, 2:53 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > > True, unless the card breaks those rules (which are the 2 cards I am > > > referring to) > > > Very good. > > Not misleading at all. Explicit, even. > > > So, what was the question, then? > > the question is the same as it was from the start, do "non > restrictive" adittionals allow you to access the inherent additional > from the AK? Like You answered your own question above (card text). -witness1

[ quoted text not captured ] I think the question has to do with this: is there just one opportunity to gain additional strikes, or can you gain an additional strike (that doesn't count against the limit), then strike with it, and then gain another additional strike? Can you keep alternating between striking and gaining additional strikes as long as you have available additional strikes that don't count against the limit? Or do you have to gain all the additional strikes you can immediately after the first strike resolution, and then use those strikes in succession (obviously with a resolution step in between each strike declaration)? The rulebook seems to say the latter, but even if that is true, is the AK an exception to this, because gaining the optional additional strike happens as part of the resolution of the AK's strike? Obviously, the question only applies to using the AK (or Kpist) after using a different strike first and then additional striking with Hell for Leather (cel) or Quickness (CEL) or something else (?) that doesn't count against the limit.

[ quoted text not captured ] Essentially this is the same question as "If I play HFL or Quickness at CEL, may I play Blur/Pursuit/cel Acrobatics afterwards?" The answer is yes. So yes for AK47...

On Oct 15, 1:16 pm, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> wrote: > Essentially this is the same question as "If I play HFL or Quickness > at CEL, may I play Blur/Pursuit/cel Acrobatics afterwards?" > > The answer is yes. So yes for AK47... Except that, as Chris points out above, it isn't the same as that. It's the same as "If I play HFL or Quickness at CEL, may I strike with (whatever), see what my opponent does in response to that (ie, resolve that strike), *then* play Blur/Pursuit/cel Acrobatics after resolution of that first additional strike." Which hasn't been answered, because LSJ's apparent implications, and most of the answers given in the thread so far, seem to ignore that distinction, and say yes, despite the rulebook explicitly saying "Additional strikes are announced (gained) and performed (used) only after the first pair of strikes are completed." (6.4.3) Which could be interpreted as "you can't generate them before then." It could also be interpreted as "You only get one chance to generate them." The clarification that's being missed is on the rulings page - however the link from it is broken. "# If you have any pending (additional) strikes, wait until those strikes are resolved before gaining further additional strikes (if you are allowed to use more than one additional- strike-gaining effect in a round). [LSJ 20001206]" So yes, after HFL allows you to add. strike with an AK47, you can use the additional strike it gives you. Provided that's still the proper ruling, which it seems to be. - D.J. - D.J.

[ quoted text not captured ] But it is not the same question. It's a similar question to "can I play a strike, then use Quickness, then play another strike, then play Blur (presumably after replacing the strike and drawing into the Blur". The answer, according to the rulebook, appears to be no - it says that additional strikes can only be played after the first strike resolution of the round. If that is true (and it's possibly a little vague, so that sequence might be legal, but I don't think it is...), then there's a question of whether or not AK is an exception to that.

On Oct 15, 12:39 pm, Meej <dj...@comcast.net> wrote: > > The clarification that's being missed is on the rulings page - however > the link from it is broken. "# If you have any pending (additional) > strikes, wait until those strikes are resolved before gaining further > additional strikes (if you are allowed to use more than one additional- > strike-gaining effect in a round). [LSJ 20001206]" > > So yes, after HFL allows you to add. strike with an AK47, you can use > the additional strike it gives you. Provided that's still the proper > ruling, which it seems to be. > Oh, okay. I missed that clarification.

6.4.3. Strike Additional Strikes: Some cards and effects allow a minion to make additional strikes during the current round of combat. Additional strikes are announced (gained) and performed (used) only after the first pair of strikes are completed. The acting minion decides whether or not to gain additional strikes before the opposing minion, as usual. Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike phase and resolve strike phase in which only the minions with additional strikes may play strike cards. All additional strikes take place at the same range. This is repeated as necessary. A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat. Additional strikes are announced (gained) and performed (used) only after the first pair of strikes are completed. Does this mean you can not gain additional strikes after the second strike? Does this mean you can not gain additional strikes unless both minions make a strike? Or if there are three initial strikes (winged second)

On Oct 15, 3:24 pm, matt...@gmail.com wrote: > 6.4.3. Strike > > Additional Strikes: Some cards and effects allow a minion to make > additional strikes during the current round of combat. Additional > strikes are announced (gained) and performed (used) only after the > first pair of strikes are completed. The acting minion decides whether > or not to gain additional strikes before the opposing minion, as > usual. Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike > phase and resolve strike phase in which only the minions with > additional strikes may play strike cards. All additional strikes take > place at the same range. This is repeated as necessary. A minion > cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per > round of combat. > > Additional strikes are announced (gained) and performed (used) only > after the first pair of strikes are completed. > > Does this mean you can not gain additional strikes after the second > strike? "# If you have any pending (additional) strikes, wait until those strikes are resolved before gaining further additional strikes (if you are allowed to use more than one additional- strike-gaining effect in a round). [LSJ 20001206]" > Does this mean you can not gain additional strikes unless both minions > make a strike? Or if there are three initial strikes (winged second) No. -witness1

Forgive me if I'm a little dense on this, but here's what I understand to be the conclusion: There is only one additional strikes phase per round, so if your first strike is with a non-AK-47/Kpist strike, you can not gain the additional strike you would get from those weapons. In this case, you would have to strike with the AK-47 as your first strike, then do Quickness and/or Hell-For-Leather to get 3-4 strikes that turn. Does this jive with what you all were saying? Brandon

[ quoted text not captured ] It is my understanding that you can not gain additional strikes if you have strikes pending. The wording could be as simple as that, although it must be after initial strikes. Matt

[ quoted text not captured ] Nope; you've got it backward. There are any number of "generate additional strikes, declare them, and resolve them" steps in a round, provided a minion can keep generating "does not count" strikes. But you need to finish resolving a batch of pending additional strikes before you generate more. Hence, the initially-proposed Dodge - HFL to strike with AK-47 - AK-47's inherent additional to strike with AK-47 chain works. And works if you tack a Quickness in there, too. But if you initially strike with the AK, and the other minion does something then generates an additional that (for some reason) you expect to be a S:CE, you can't play your HFL and Quickness just to cycle them, as you've already got a pending additional strike. At least, that's how I understand it. - D.J.

In message <1efe27f1-5242-47bc...@h60g2000hsg.googlegroup s.com>, Meej <dj...@comcast.net> writes: >On Oct 16, 5:24 pm, brandonsantac...@yahoo.com wrote: >> Forgive me if I'm a little dense on this, but here's what I understand >> to be the conclusion: >> There is only one additional strikes phase per round, so if your first >> strike is with a non-AK-47/Kpist strike, you can not gain the >> additional strike you would get from those weapons. In this case, you >> would have to strike with the AK-47 as your first strike, then do >> Quickness and/or Hell-For-Leather to get 3-4 strikes that turn. >> Does this jive with what you all were saying? > >Nope; you've got it backward. > >There are any number of "generate additional strikes, declare them, >and resolve them" steps in a round, provided a minion can keep >generating "does not count" strikes. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=outline only has one time slot in which you can gain additional strikes. You repeat announce strike and resolve strike for each pair, but you don't repeat "gain additional strikes", according to that text. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

[ quoted text not captured ] There is no such thing as the "additional strike's phase" there is only a source of additional strikes, and you can only have one source of additional strikes per round. If you use the AK-47 then you get a Mandatory additional strike that can only be used with the AK-47, which is interesting because if you struck hands then did an inferior blur and struck with the AK-47 then you would set up a contradictory effect to the rules by card text. You would have used your single source of additional strikes (i.e. Blur) but then you have added an effect which gives you a mandatory additional strike as there is no "may" in AK-47's card text. AK-47 has "queued" a second source of additional strikes. You can not use the second source of additional strikes as you are limited to only one. Does that make sense? Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

Are the 4.0 rules the newest set? When was it released? Should I ignore rulings previous to it (on the same subject)?

On Oct 16, 4:07 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > If you use the AK-47 then you get a Mandatory additional strike that > can only be used with the AK-47, which is interesting because if you > struck hands then did an inferior blur and struck with the AK-47 then > you would set up a contradictory effect to the rules by card text. > You would have used your single source of additional strikes (i.e. > Blur) but then you have added an effect which gives you a mandatory > additional strike as there is no "may" in AK-47's card text. While you're right that there's no "may" in AK-47's card text, there is the word "optional." So there is no rules contridiction here. Brandon, to answer your question, here are a variety of examples: 1) Legal: 1st strike: AK-47 2nd strike: AK-47 play Quickness 3rd strike: whatever you want (could be AK-47 again) 2) ILLEGAL: 1st strike: AK-47 play Quickness (you can't gain additional strikes while you have additional strikes pending. Compare to #1 above) 2nd strike: AK-47 3rd strike: whatever you want (could be AK-47 again) 3) Legal: 1st strike: Hell-for-Leather at ani for dodge and an additional strike 2nd strike: AK-47 3rd Strike: AK-47 4) Legal: 1st strike: Hands play pursuit 2nd strike: Hands play Quickness 3rd strike: Hands 5) ILLEGAL: 1st strike: Hands play pursuit play quickness (you can't gain additional strikes while you have additional strikes pending. Compare to #4 above) 2nd strike: Hands 3rd strike: Hands 6) ILLEGAL: 1st strike: Hands play quickness play pursuit (you can't gain additional strikes while you have additional strikes pending. Compare to #4 above) 2nd strike: Hands 3rd strike: Hands 7) LEGAL, and the most confusing: 1st strike: AK-47 play Quickness (this is OK if you give up the additional strike that the AK grants, since it's optional. Compare to #2 above) 2nd strike: whatever you want (could be AK-47 again) (only 2 additional strikes total) So, in #7, if the opposing vamp had 1 blood and you wanted to cycle your quickness, you could, but only if you give up the optional additional strike that the AK-47 gives. I hope this helps, and I hope I didn't make any mistakes with my examples. :) I feel pretty confident about them... Ira AK-47 [LotN:R] Cardtype: Equipment Cost: 5 pool Weapon. Gun. 2R damage each strike, with an optional maneuver {each combat}. When [ quoted text not captured ]

> There is no such thing as the "additional strike's phase" there is > only a source of additional strikes, and you can only have one source > of additional strikes per round. After looking at the outline that James mentioned, it seems like there is only one opportunity to gain additional strikes per round. i.e. a: round begins, b: set range, c: Strike 1. Announce Strikes 2. Resolve Strikes 3. Option to gain additional strikes 4. "Resolve steps 1-2 above for each additional strike. [6.4.3.3]" then presses, etc. This seems to indicate that if you opt for additional strikes, you are chained into steps 1-2 for each strike, otherwise it should say something like "repeat C(strikes) for each additional strike." So then after you finish steps 1-2 for each additional strike, return to step 4 and presses. > If you use the AK-47 then you get a Mandatory additional strike that > can only be used with the AK-47, which is interesting because if you > struck hands then did an inferior blur and struck with the AK-47 then > you would set up a contradictory effect to the rules by card text. > You would have used your single source of additional strikes (i.e. > Blur) but then you have added an effect which gives you a mandatory > additional strike as there is no "may" in AK-47's card text. AK-47 > has "queued" a second source of additional strikes. You can not use > the second source of additional strikes as you are limited to only > one. Here's the link to WW's card text for AK-47: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=Cardlist_A#AK_47 Interestingly, it says you gain an "optional additional strike this round, only usable to strike with this gun." And if I decline that additional strike in favor of Blur at CEL, Quickness at CEL, and HFL at cel, can I gain 4 additional strikes? 3 more AK-47's and an RPG later(say it's round 2), your opponent has received 14 damage. How about some Target: Vitals now? 24 damage? Ow.. Why am I using AK-47 again?

> 3) Legal: > 1st strike: Hell-for-Leather at ani for dodge and an additional strike > 2nd strike: AK-47 > 3rd Strike: AK-47 Ira, this is not legal as you are using two sources of additional strikes, Hell-for-Leather at ani and the AK-47's add strike. LSJ can you clarify?

[ quoted text not captured ] Correct. The ani version doesn't say the additional doesn't count against the limit, so it counts against the limit.

On Oct 16, 7:51 pm, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> wrote: > 7) LEGAL, and the most confusing: > 1st strike: AK-47 > play Quickness (this is OK if you give up the additional strike that > the AK grants, since it's optional. Compare to #2 above) > 2nd strike: whatever you want (could be AK-47 again) > (only 2 additional strikes total) > > So, in #7, if the opposing vamp had 1 blood and you wanted to cycle > your quickness, you could, but only if you give up the optional > additional strike that the AK-47 gives. Hmm. Question: Let's assume Ira's #7 above - I strike AK-47, opt not to gain that additional strike, and play Quickness. I then strike AK-47 with Quickness's add'l strike. Since I have just struck with the AK-47, and haven't used a "counts" source of additional strikes, does that 2nd AK-47 strike also give me the option of an additional strike, like the first one did? In other words, does denying to take the option the first time it's presented somehow keep it from being presented again? (I believe that AK-47, Quickness to strike AK-47, then AK-47 enabled additional strike for a third AK-47, should be legal, but I want to confirm.) - D.J.

Meej wrote: > On Oct 16, 7:51 pm, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> 7) LEGAL, and the most confusing: >> 1st strike: AK-47 >> play Quickness (this is OK if you give up the additional strike that >> the AK grants, since it's optional. Compare to #2 above) >> 2nd strike: whatever you want (could be AK-47 again) >> (only 2 additional strikes total) >> >> So, in #7, if the opposing vamp had 1 blood and you wanted to cycle >> your quickness, you could, but only if you give up the optional >> additional strike that the AK-47 gives. > > Hmm. Question: Let's assume Ira's #7 above - I strike AK-47, opt not > to gain that additional strike, and play Quickness. I then strike > AK-47 with Quickness's add'l strike. Since I have just struck with > the AK-47, and haven't used a "counts" source of additional strikes, > does that 2nd AK-47 strike also give me the option of an additional > strike, like the first one did? Yes. > In other words, does denying to take the option the first time it's > presented somehow keep it from being presented again? No. > (I believe that AK-47, Quickness to strike AK-47, then AK-47 enabled > additional strike for a third AK-47, should be legal, but I want to > confirm.) Confirmed.

[ quoted text not captured ] So, does that also means that, in a given round, you get just only and only one "gain additional strikes" window phase, that occours just after the first pair of (canonical) strikes are completed ? And therefore you can't use/play other effects that gives you (furthers) additionals strike *after* you already resolved an additional strike ? thanks Emiliano, NC Italy

[ quoted text not captured ] No. Indeed, the above explicitly says that is not the case and that the exact opposite is true.

[ quoted text not captured ] Thanks for the good catch - that's just a lesson to me to quote card text when I reference cards! :) Sorry for my mistake. In that example, I intended for the Hell-For-Leather to not count against additional strikes, and thus be the cel version. Ira

[ quoted text not captured ] Ok, so you can go on gainining additional(s) after *any* strike (even additional ones) are completed. I find rulebook is a bit confusing here then: "Additional strikes are announced (gained) and performed (used) *only after the first* pair of strikes are completed." I would suggest a reword of that, to better explain that you can gain strike just *not* only after "the first pair of strike is resolved", but after *any* pair of strike is resolved just my two cents Emiliano

[ quoted text not captured ] So long as you don't alredy have more additional strike pending, yes. > I find rulebook is a bit confusing here then: Yes. That ambiguity has been pointed out. [ quoted text not captured ]