I really hate cards that can only be found in the starters. What if you
want more of a specific card. You have to buy several starters just to
get multiple copies of one card. Why can't all the cards be included in
the starters?
Shadowdragon
The Lasombra wrote:
>
> There are 162 cards that only appear in the starters for the Camarilla
> Edition. This is the list.
>
> http://www.thelasombra.com/lists/cam_starter_only.htm
>
> .44 Magnum
> Aisling Sturbridge
> Akram
> Alexandra
> Amadeo
> Anatole, Prophet of Gehenna
> Arcanum Chapterhouse, Alexandria
> Arika
> Arson
> Ascendance
> Awe
> Banishment
> Barrens (The)
> Bindusara, Historian of the Kindred
> Blessing of Chaos
> Blood Doll
> Blood Fury
> Blythe Candeleria
> Bomb
> Brachah
> Bribes
> Bureaucratic Overload
> Burning Wrath
> Cairo Int'l Airport
> Calebros, The Martyr
> Carrion Crows
> Catatonic Fear
> Cauldron of Blood
> Command of the Harpies
> Computer Hacking
> Consanguineous Boon
> Conservative Agitation
> Constanza Vinti
> Cornelius Ottavio
> Corpse Minion
> Daliyah
> Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro
> Disarm
> Disarming Presence
> Disputed Territory
> Distraction
> Donal O'Connor
> Dread Gaze
> Effective Management
> Elisabetta Romano
> Elysium: The Palace of Versailles
> Etrius
> Fake Out
> Fame
> Fast Hands
> Fear of Mekhet
> Flak Jacket
> Flamethrower
> Forced Awakening
> Forest of Shadows
> Forgotten Labyrinth
> Fractured Armament
> Francois Villon
> Gird Minions
> Greger Anderssen
> Guard Dogs
> Gwendolyn
> Harrod
> Hawg
> Illegal Search and Seizure
> Information Highway
> Intimidation
> IR Goggles
> Isabel de Leon
> Itzahk Levine
> Jan Pieterzoon
> Javier Montoya
> Judah
> Kindred Coercion
> Kindred Segregation
> Kiss of Ra (The)
> Klaus van der Veken
> Laurent de Valois
> Leandro
> Leather Jacket
> Lextalionis
> Life Boon
> Louvre, Paris (The)
> Magic of the Smith
> Makarios, The Seducer
> Marcellus
> Marijava Ghoul
> Marked Path
> Meat Cleaver
> Mind Numb
> Misdirection
> Mob Connections
> Muaziz, Archon of Ulugh Beg
> Murat
> Mustafa Rahman
> Nakova, Advocate of Golconda
> Nikolaus Vermeulen
> Nosferatu Performance Art
> Ohanna
> Oxford University, England
> Peace Treaty
> Political Backlash
> Precognition
> Protect Thine Own
> Protracted Investment
> Psychic Projection
> Pulse of the Canaille
> Pursuit
> Pushing the Limit
> Queen Anne
> Radeyah
> Ranjan Rishi, Camarilla Scholar
> Raziya Samater
> Rebekka, Chantry Elder of Munich
> Redirection
> Regilio, The Seeker of Akhenaten
> Resilience
> Restoration
> Revelations
> Reversal of Fortunes
> Riposte
> Rolling with the Punches
> Rumor Mill, Tabloid Newspaper (The)
> Rutor's Hand
> Sacrament of Carnage
> Sacrificial Lamb
> Sawed-Off Shotgun
> Scorn of Adonis
> Scorpion Sting
> Scouting Mission
> Scrying of Secrets
> Secure Haven
> Seeds of Corruption
> Short-Term Investment
> Shotgun Ritual
> Side Strike
> Sigrid Bekker
> Song of Serenity
> Soul Burn
> Speed of Thought
> Spiridonas
> Sport Bike
> Spying Mission
> Stutter-Step
> Suhailah
> Swallowed by the Night
> Terror Frenzy
> Theo Bell
> Thought's Betrayed
> Trap
> Unnatural Disaster
> Vasilis, The Traitor of Don Cruez
> Vast Wealth
> Ventrue Directorate Assembly
> Victoria
> Victoria Ash
> Volker, The Puppet Prince
> Wake with Evening's Freshness
> Wasserschloss Anif, Austria
> Watenda
> Wilhelm Waldburg
> Zoe
>
> Carpe noctem.
>
> Lasombra
>
> http://www.TheLasombra.com/cardlists.htm
On Wed, 09 Oct 2002 03:52:43 GMT, Shadowdragon <mtbed...@rogers.com>
wrote:
>I really hate cards that can only be found in the starters. What if you>want more of a specific card?
You buy them as singles, same as any card in the boosters.
>You have to buy several starters just to get multiple copies of one
>card.
This is why trading exists. All of the cards in the Camarilla Edition
starters are reprints from prior sets, or are included in the
boosters. If you really need one specific card, you can trade for it
with people that have the older sets.
>Why can't all the cards be included in the starters?
I assume you mean boosters here.
Simplicity. With only 1 sheet for commons, 1 for uncommons, 1 for
vampires, and 1 for rares, it is very difficult for the printers to
mess up distribution and packaging. With multiples of any of the
sheets, you increase the likelyhood that the printer will do bad
things to your game.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
http://www.TheLasombra.com/cardtrader.htm
The Lasombra wrote:
>
> On Wed, 09 Oct 2002 03:52:43 GMT, Shadowdragon <mtbed...@rogers.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I really hate cards that can only be found in the starters. What if you
> >want more of a specific card?
>
> You buy them as singles, same as any card in the boosters.
... or you buy boosters from the sets in which those cards originally
appeared. The CE starter-only cards are all reprints from previous sets.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
The Lasombra wrote:
>
> On Wed, 09 Oct 2002 03:52:43 GMT, Shadowdragon <mtbed...@rogers.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I really hate cards that can only be found in the starters. What if you
> >want more of a specific card?
>
> You buy them as singles, same as any card in the boosters.
But they end up costing more then if you get them in boosters. Well,
maybe not for commons but definitely for anything else.
>
> >You have to buy several starters just to get multiple copies of one
> >card.
>
> This is why trading exists. All of the cards in the Camarilla Edition
> starters are reprints from prior sets, or are included in the
> boosters. If you really need one specific card, you can trade for it
> with people that have the older sets.
>
OK so the CE decks are ok if the starter only cards can be found in
previous boosters, but the Sabbat Wars and Final Nights aren't. Trading
cards is fine if you have people to trade with. No one else in my area
collects V:TES. I have to drive one and a half hours to find a store
that even sells V:TES cards. I play in the occasional tournament but
those are all more then an hours drive away as well. Trading online is a
hassle and with shipping and postage costs it can end up being very
expensive. Besides, finding people willing to trade starter only cards
is hard. Once they trade away their starter only cards the only way they
can get them back (if they want to get them back for some reason) is to
buy more starters.
> >Why can't all the cards be included in the starters?
>
> I assume you mean boosters here.
> Simplicity. With only 1 sheet for commons, 1 for uncommons, 1 for
> vampires, and 1 for rares, it is very difficult for the printers to
> mess up distribution and packaging. With multiples of any of the
> sheets, you increase the likelyhood that the printer will do bad
> things to your game.
>
Oops, yes I meant boosters. That's what I get for trying to rant late at
night after a busy day :)
The cards in the starter decks have to be on a sheet somewhere don't
they? Why didn't they just include those sheets with the ones that were
going into the boosters? If the sheets are already made up where is the
harm in printing extra copies for the boosters? I don't know anything
about printing cards so I don't know if this would be more expensive to
do, or cause more problems with printing or something.
Shadowdragon
Shadowdragon wrote:
> The cards in the starter decks have to be on a sheet somewhere don't
> they? Why didn't they just include those sheets with the ones that were
> going into the boosters? If the sheets are already made up where is the
> harm in printing extra copies for the boosters? I don't know anything
> about printing cards so I don't know if this would be more expensive to
> do, or cause more problems with printing or something.
A booster is composed of X cards from the common sheet, Y cards from
the uncommon sheet, and Z cards from the rare sheet (and, for sets
with vampire sheets, with W cards from the vampire sheet).
Those sheets were full - no room on them to hold the starter-deck-only
cards.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3DA59E10...@white-wolf.com...
> Shadowdragon wrote:
> > The cards in the starter decks have to be on a sheet somewhere don't
> > they? Why didn't they just include those sheets with the ones that were
> > going into the boosters? If the sheets are already made up where is the
> > harm in printing extra copies for the boosters? I don't know anything
> > about printing cards so I don't know if this would be more expensive to
> > do, or cause more problems with printing or something.
>
> A booster is composed of X cards from the common sheet, Y cards from
> the uncommon sheet, and Z cards from the rare sheet (and, for sets
> with vampire sheets, with W cards from the vampire sheet).
>
> Those sheets were full - no room on them to hold the starter-deck-only
> cards.
It could in theory be composed of X cards from the two (or more) common
sheets, etc, though, right? If the "starter deck" sheets were also
used as "common" (or "uncommon" etc) sheets for the boosters?
That wouldn't exactly make the booster-cards easier to collect, though,
since there could be a lot more different cards that could appear in
boosters (and ratios would become somewhat odd depending on what cards
appeared how many times on the starter sheets).
Josh
short sheeted
[ quoted text not captured ]
You could collate any way you like (put 90 cards from the rare sheet
in each starter, for example), sure.
But switching from 5C/3U/2V/1R to 2C/1U/1V/1R/1PB/1PM/1PN/1PTo/1PTr/1PV
is clearly not a good idea.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Shadowdragon <mtbed...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3DA3A934...@rogers.com>...
> I really hate cards that can only be found in the starters. What if you
> want more of a specific card. You have to buy several starters just to
> get multiple copies of one card. Why can't all the cards be included in
> the starters?
This past weekend I made a spreadsheet that shows the other end of the
spectrum: Cards in BOTH the Precons and Boosters. IIRC, there are 85
cards that fit into this category, including three rares: Kine
Dominance, Telepathic Vote Counting, and Psychic Veil.
The Brujah starter has the most cross-over cards with something like
48 (Rushes and combat mainly) and the Ventrue has the least with 33
(lots of Fortitude prevent and some OOP Masters). I'll post a list of
them when I get home.
Jeff
Shadowdragon <mtbed...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3DA3A934...@rogers.com>...
> I really hate cards that can only be found in the starters. What if you
> want more of a specific card. You have to buy several starters just to
> get multiple copies of one card. Why can't all the cards be included in
> the starters?
Here's a breakdown of cards in BOTH the Pre-Cons and Boosters. I
wanted to compile this list because these cards are a bit more common
than cards that are only in the boosters as far as trading goes. As
you can see, 88 cards (out of the 285 card set) were duplicated in
both (mainly staples). The Brujah had a whopping 48 cards duplicated,
with lots of strength in the uncommons (11). The Ventrue had the next
largest number of uncommons (8) and the Tremere had least (3). In
total, there were 230 cards out of 540 possible (90x6) which are in
both the Pre-Cons and Boosters.
Jeff
BruMalNosTorTreVen X Sum
Legal Manipulations C Action 1
X 1
Concealed Weapon C Combat 1 1
X 2
Mighty Grapple C Combat 1
X 1
Minion Tap C Master 1
1 X 2
Acrobatics C Combat 2
X 2
Haven Uncovered C Master 2
X 2
Blur C Combat 3
X 3
Thrown Gate C Combat 3
X 3
Enchant Kindred C Action 5 2
X 7
Thrown Sewer Lid C Combat 5
X 5
Flash C Combat 6 3
X 9
Bum's Rush C Action 7 5
X 12
Enhanced Senses C Reaction 1 1 3
X 5
Surprise Influence C Reaction 1
X 1
Disquised Weapon C Combat 2
X 2
Read Intentions C Combat 2
X 2
Dementation C Master 2
X 2
Elder Impersonation C Modifier 2
X 2
Cloak the Gathering C Modifier 4
X 4
Confusion C Modifier 4
X 4
Eyes of Chaos C Modifier 4
X 4
Telepathic Counter C Reaction 4
X 4
Telepathic Misdirection C Reaction 4
X 4
Lost in Crowds C Modifier 6 4
X 10
Army of Rats C Action 1
X 1
Canine Horde C Combat 1
X 1
Secret Horde C Master 1
X 1
Shattering Blow C Combat 2
X 2
Aid from Bats C Combat 3
X 3
Boxed In C Combat 3
X 3
Increased Strength C Combat 3
X 3
Night Moves C Action 3
X 3
Undead Strength C Combat 5
X 5
Sideslip C Combat 1
X 1
Saturday-Night Special C Equipment 1
X 1
Kine Resources Contested C Political 2
X 2
Social Charm C Action 3
3 X 6
Aire of Elation C Modifier 3
X 3
Ancilla Empowerment C Political 3
X 3
Bewitching Oration C Modifier 4
4 X 8
Spirit's Touch C Reaction 4 3
X 7
Blood to Water C Combat 1
X 1
Aura Reading C Combat 2
X 2
Walk of Flame C Combat 3
X 3
Deflection C Reaction 3
X 3
Harass C Action 4
X 4
Conditioning C Modifier 4
X 4
Apportation C Combat 5
X 5
Theft of Vitae C Combat 5
X 5
Camarilla Exemplary C Political
1 X 1
Indomitability C Combat
2 X 2
Bonding C Modifier
2 X 2
Seduction C Modifier
2 X 2
Domain Challenge C Political
2 X 2
Majesty C Combat
3 X 3
Govern the Unaligned C Action
4 X 4
TOTAL TOTAL TOTAL 37 36 31 28 33
24 X 189
Psychic Veil R Action 1
X 1
Dominate Kine R Action
1 X 1
Telepathic Vote Counting R2 Modifier 1
X 1
Blood Hunt U Action 1
X 1
Rampage U Action 1
X 1
Infernal Pursuit U Combat 1
X 1
Psyche! U Combat 1
X 1
Wooden Stake U Equipment 1
X 1
Warzone Hunting Ground U Master 1
X 1
Anathema U Political 1
X 1
Immortal Grapple U Combat 2
X 2
Taste of Vitae U Combat 2 1
X 3
Muddled Vampire Hunter U Ally 1
X 1
Asylum Hunting Ground U Master 1
X 1
Elysium: The Arboretum U Master 1
X 1
Precognizant Mobility U Action 2
X 2
Behind You! U Combat 1
X 1
Slum Hunting Ground U Master 1
X 1
Owl Companion U Retainer 1
X 1
Raven Spy U Retainer 1
X 1
Charming Lobby U Action 1
X 1
Dragon's Breath Rounds U Combat 1
X 1
Society Hunting Ground U Master 1
X 1
Second Tradition: Domain (The) U Reaction 1
2 X 3
Voter Captivation U Modifier 2
1 X 3
Graverobbing U Action 1
X 1
Academic Hunting Ground U Master 1
X 1
Pulling Strings U Reaction 1
X 1
Uptown Hunting Ground U Master
1 X 1
Kindred Restructure U Political
1 X 1
Elder Kindred Network U Reaction
1 X 1
Freak Drive U Modifier
2 X 2
TOTAL TOTAL TOTAL 11 5 5 6 3
8 X 38
GRAND TOTAL GTOTAL GTOTAL 48 42 36 35 36
33 88
On 10 Oct 2002 19:23:27 -0700, jeff...@hotmail.com (Jeff Kuta)
wrote:
>Shadowdragon <mtbed...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3DA3A934...@rogers.com>...>> I really hate cards that can only be found in the starters. What if you
>> want more of a specific card. You have to buy several starters just to
>> get multiple copies of one card. Why can't all the cards be included in
>> the starters?>Here's a breakdown of cards in BOTH the Pre-Cons and Boosters. I
>wanted to compile this list because these cards are a bit more common
>than cards that are only in the boosters as far as trading goes. As
>you can see, 88 cards (out of the 285 card set) were duplicated in
>both (mainly staples). The Brujah had a whopping 48 cards duplicated,
>with lots of strength in the uncommons (11). The Ventrue had the next
>largest number of uncommons (8) and the Tremere had least (3). In
>total, there were 230 cards out of 540 possible (90x6) which are in
>both the Pre-Cons and Boosters.>Jeff
>BruMalNosTorTreVen X Sum
>Legal Manipulations C Action 1
> X 1
>Concealed Weapon C Combat 1 1
> X 2
Any chance you can email this list sorted alphabetically?
I'm willing to archive it, but as you can see from the above, fixing
your post to archive it is more work than I am willing to do.
[ quoted text not captured ]
You wouldn't have to do 2C/1U/1V/1R/1PB/1PM/1PN/1PTo/1PTr/1PV would you?
Just include the cards from the starters into the mix for the boosters.
Each booster wouldn't have to have one card from each starter, there
should jest be a chance that a booster contains a card from a starter.
You may get a booster that has no cards from the starter decks, some
cards from the starter decks, or all cards from the starter decks. So
you still only have 5C/3U/2V/1R.
Shadowdragon
[ quoted text not captured ]
Shadowdragon wrote:
>
> You wouldn't have to do 2C/1U/1V/1R/1PB/1PM/1PN/1PTo/1PTr/1PV would you?
> Just include the cards from the starters into the mix for the boosters.
See one of the previous responses (quoted below as well):
[ quoted text not captured ]
thela...@hotmail.com (The Lasombra) wrote in message news:<ibidnT0R7v6...@News.GigaNews.Com>...
> On Wed, 09 Oct 2002 03:52:43 GMT, Shadowdragon <mtbed...@rogers.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I really hate cards that can only be found in the starters. What if you
> >want more of a specific card?
>
> You buy them as singles, same as any card in the boosters.
What about, say, Decapitate ? One of the most powerful rare cards I
know ( The cost of it is a joke compared to its effectiveness ), and
you can *only* get it through the !Brujah starters. *That* one should
have been reprinted in the boosters.
Magnus
[ quoted text not captured ]
(Note that you're switching the subject away from CE starters)
Decapitate is also found in Sabbat boosters.
[ quoted text not captured ]
They wouldn't have to be on the same sheet. Just include some cards from
the boosters sheet and some from the starter only sheet in each booster.
You don't have to put one card from each starter into each booster.
Shadowdragon
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
If Decapitate had been reprinted in the CE as a rare, you'd get on average
one Decapitate per three boxes of boosters. Your retail price would be
around $300 or $183 from someone like Potomac. If it were reprinted as an
uncommon, you'd get one Decapitate per box of boosters, on average, so
slash the price by a third.
Why not just pick up a Brujah antitribu starter or two if you want
Decapitates? They're only $10 each. You also get Direct Intervention,
Immortal Grapple, Torn Signpost, Taste of Vitae and some other decent
stuff. Sure, you get a lot of nifty cards in a booster box, but if you're
after specific cards, starters are a better buy. They are certainly
better than ebay in a lot of cases.
Most of the cards I've really been searching for (Dreams of the Sphinx,
Alamut, Direct Intervention, Decapitate, Daring the Dawn, etc., etc.) as
well as vampires which didn't appear in boosters (Silvia Giovanni, Sasha
Vykos, Polonia, etc., etc.) were just re-released in the Final
Nights/Sabbat War combo starter box. I bought two from Potomac and I'm
very happy with them.
-Matt
(Not on White Wolf's payroll)
>What about, say, Decapitate ? One of the most powerful rare cards I
>know ( The cost of it is a joke compared to its effectiveness ), and
>you can *only* get it through the !Brujah starters. *That* one should
>have been reprinted in the boosters.
Decapitate or Disarm? Cuz, I don't remember anyone complaining about the power
of Decapitate nor not being able to get their hands on them.
Why shouldn't I top post. It's actually better nettiquette (sp?) to top
post on newsgroups. That way you don't force people to scroll through
all the quoted text to get to the reply.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Shadowdragon wrote:
> LSJ wrote:
> >
> > Shadowdragon wrote:
> > >
> > > You wouldn't have to do 2C/1U/1V/1R/1PB/1PM/1PN/1PTo/1PTr/1PV would you?
> > > Just include the cards from the starters into the mix for the boosters.
> >
> > See one of the previous responses (quoted below as well):
...
> > > > You could collate any way you like (put 90 cards from the rare sheet
> > > > in each starter, for example), sure.
> > > >
> > > > But switching from 5C/3U/2V/1R to 2C/1U/1V/1R/1PB/1PM/1PN/1PTo/1PTr/1PV
> > > > is clearly not a good idea.
>> They wouldn't have to be on the same sheet. Just include some cards from
> the boosters sheet and some from the starter only sheet in each booster.
I think Scott is saying that they _would_ have to be on the same sheet. I
think you two are misunderstanding each other in that way, if I understand
the dispute correctly. Each card in a booster apparently (?) must come from a
single print sheet. White Wolf's printers can not (or do not wish to, for
whatever production reasons) simply print cards on sheets and remix them with
cards from other print sheets - in this case, the print sheets used from the
starter decks, I guess - to stick them in boosters.
Fred
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3DB3F218...@white-wolf.com>...
> (Note that you're switching the subject away from CE starters)
Yeah, true. But my comment was more directed at card availability in
general. Sorry if that is off-topic to the thread. :)
> Decapitate is also found in Sabbat boosters.
Which are sooooo easy to get... same goes for Direct Intervention,
too, btw.
Magnus
cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20021021131419...@mb-fh.aol.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Disarm is definitely a good card, but I find Decapitate to be much
more powerful. Hey, you don´t need to put the damned Burning Wrath
into your deck anymore, just Torn Signposts and Fists of Death.
Decapitate will do the job just fine, after you punched the opposing
minion into torpor. If you include Disarm, better yet!
I find it a bit sad, that POT combat decks rely so much on power rares
and uncommons to be at their maximal effectiveness. Bleed decks or
vote decks don´t suffer from that limitation.
Magnus
Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:<3DB41084...@removethis.com>...
> Decapitate is an uncommon, not a rare.
Sorry for the mix-up. But as it is available only through Sabbat
boosters ( which are basically impossible to get, more so in Germany )
and !Brujah starters, it may well be a rare.
Magnus
"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.021021...@hagbard.io.com>...
> If Decapitate had been reprinted in the CE as a rare, you'd get on average
> one Decapitate per three boxes of boosters. Your retail price would be
> around $300 or $183 from someone like Potomac. If it were reprinted as an
> uncommon, you'd get one Decapitate per box of boosters, on average, so
> slash the price by a third.
As I said in other responses, I thought it was a rare. Which,
considering that you can get it in Sabbat boosters and in one starter,
it well may be called one.
> Why not just pick up a Brujah antitribu starter or two if you want
> Decapitates? They're only $10 each. You also get Direct Intervention,
> Immortal Grapple, Torn Signpost, Taste of Vitae and some other decent
> stuff. Sure, you get a lot of nifty cards in a booster box, but if you're
> after specific cards, starters are a better buy. They are certainly
> better than ebay in a lot of cases.
Oh, I know. The !Brujah starter is actually one of the best starters,
if you go by powerful cards. All the cards you mentioned are highly
desirable in a good POT fighting deck and the DI is desirable in about
*any* deck. Compare that to other substandard starters ( Nosferatu,
Ventrue Antitribu ) it is really a bargain.
To answer your question, until now availability was a problem (
although the two which arrived at my favorite store were bought up
before I was even aware of them ). At the moment I also have some
money problems, but that is beside the case.
If I´d want a decent number of them, I´d have to buy eight starters,
which again is a lot of money. Which I guess I´ll be saving for the
FOTR Extended Edition, but only because I can´t imagine not buying
*that*. ;)
I guess I´ll just have to improvise burning opposing minions another
way. :)
> Most of the cards I've really been searching for (Dreams of the Sphinx,
> Alamut, Direct Intervention, Decapitate, Daring the Dawn, etc., etc.) as
> well as vampires which didn't appear in boosters (Silvia Giovanni, Sasha
> Vykos, Polonia, etc., etc.) were just re-released in the Final
> Nights/Sabbat War combo starter box. I bought two from Potomac and I'm
> very happy with them.
As I said, if I had the money, I´d happily buy some of those combo
boxes. I just hope they will be available for some time, before all
!Brujah starters are bought up again. :)
Still, it wouldn´t have hurt to put Decapitate into the Sabbat War
Boosters, same to DI. Or into CE boosters, where Disarm wouldn´t have
gone amiss. It wouldn´t have made the starters any less desirable (
you are guaranteed to get those cards in them, after all ), but would
have been definitely better than *some* uncommons/rares, which are
almost not used anyway.
Magnus
"Magnus" <magn...@gmx.de> wrote in message
> I find it a bit sad, that POT combat decks rely so much on power rares
> and uncommons to be at their maximal effectiveness. Bleed decks or
> vote decks don´t suffer from that limitation.
Vote decks can: Awe, Protect Thine Own
Bleed decks: I'll give you that one.
POT does not require the power rares to be effective.
Decapitate is nice but supflerioius to me. Its such a rare event
that I need to burn someone, I prefer to use Burning Wrath once they are
low on blood. And if they're not low on blood .... bash them some more.
(actually having great fun with pot/prt right now, "well that 7 damage was agg,
thats enough to burn you? oh my I never realized")
Disarm I thought was really, really cool at first. Then I got a couple and my opinion has
deflated. They seem to benefit the weenie potence more than any other. Sure dumping them in torpor is
nice but I'ld rather just whack em' until they get there the old fasioned way.
(not that I'm selling or trading mine cheap mind you....).
Other POT rares?
Death of my conscience : no thanks
Fire in Blood? Rarely worth it. What POT deck requires three rounds?
Well aimed car: Nice if you can pull it off (just for bragging rights) but there's
better things to do.
You can make a perfectly functional mono POT deck out of uncommons and
commons. Neither disarm nor decapitate are necessary. Substitute a caitiff comitting diablerie
for the decapitate (with amaranth if you like), what ever thrills you for the disarms
(burning wrath my choice)
-JTP
[ quoted text not captured ]
A common card in a booster pack (one of the 5C cards in a CE pack) is one that
comes from the common sheet, by definition.
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ wrote:
> I wrote:
> > I think Scott is saying that they _would_ have to be on the same sheet. I
> > think you two are misunderstanding each other in that way, if I understand
> > the dispute correctly. Each card in a booster apparently (?) must come from a
> > single print sheet. White Wolf's printers can not (or do not wish to, for
> > whatever production reasons) simply print cards on sheets and remix them with
> > cards from other print sheets - in this case, the print sheets used from the
> > starter decks, I guess - to stick them in boosters.
>
> A common card in a booster pack (one of the 5C cards in a CE pack) is one that
> comes from the common sheet, by definition.
That definition is not necessary, however. It may be accurate now due to White
Wolf's (or WW's printers') method of manufacturing packs but that isn't the only
way to do things. It is also conceivable for a slot in a booster pack to be
populated by mixing cards printed on *different* card sheets at arbitrary ratios.
I'm pretty sure WotC actually did that in VtES boosters. I suspect that may have
been what Shadowdragon had in mind when suggesting cards from precons be mixed
into CE booster packs.
Fred
"John P." <verg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<LP%s9.14678$EX4....@news1.mts.net>...
> Vote decks can: Awe, Protect Thine Own
Yeah, but those are just some icing on the cake. You can build totally
efficient vote decks without those two.
> POT does not require the power rares to be effective.
>
> Decapitate is nice but supflerioius to me. Its such a rare event
> that I need to burn someone, I prefer to use Burning Wrath once they are
> low on blood. And if they're not low on blood .... bash them some more.
> (actually having great fun with pot/prt right now, "well that 7 damage was agg,
> thats enough to burn you? oh my I never realized")
Honestly, I find the available crypt for such a deck to be totally
inefficient. And what do you do against a guy who dodges ?
> Disarm I thought was really, really cool at first. Then I got a couple and my opinion has
> deflated. They seem to benefit the weenie potence more than any other. Sure dumping them in torpor is
> nice but I'ld rather just whack em' until they get there the old fasioned way.
> (not that I'm selling or trading mine cheap mind you....).
I don´t play Weenie potence, but Disarms are definitely nice if you
drew that Torn Signpost, but didn´t have the Blur/Sidestrike on your
hand.
> Other POT rares?
> Death of my conscience : no thanks
> Fire in Blood? Rarely worth it. What POT deck requires three rounds?
> Well aimed car: Nice if you can pull it off (just for bragging rights) but there's
> better things to do.
I wasn´t talking about those, although Death of my Concience can be a
powerful card. Not in the POT/CEL deck I am envisioning, but maybe in
a Nosferatu POT deck.
> You can make a perfectly functional mono POT deck out of uncommons and
> commons. Neither disarm nor decapitate are necessary. Substitute a caitiff comitting diablerie
> for the decapitate (with amaranth if you like), what ever thrills you for the disarms
> (burning wrath my choice)
For a mono POT deck, you are right, as you probably won´t be doing
more than one strike in the round. I was envisioning something more
along the lines of the good ol´ CEL/POT deck ( arguably the most
common rush deck build, I´d say. At least around here. ).
What would *you* prefer ? A deck build with Undead Strenght, Blur,
Sidestrike, Pursuit, Taste of Vitae, IG and Burning Wrath *or* a deck
with Torn Signposts, Fist of Death, Blur, Sidestrike, Pursuit, Taste
of Vitae, IG and Decapitate ? I know which *I* would take, that´s for
sure.
Magnus
Frederick Scott wrote:
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > I wrote:
> > > I think Scott is saying that they _would_ have to be on the same sheet. I
> > > think you two are misunderstanding each other in that way, if I understand
> > > the dispute correctly. Each card in a booster apparently (?) must come from a
> > > single print sheet. White Wolf's printers can not (or do not wish to, for
> > > whatever production reasons) simply print cards on sheets and remix them with
> > > cards from other print sheets - in this case, the print sheets used from the
> > > starter decks, I guess - to stick them in boosters.
> >
> > A common card in a booster pack (one of the 5C cards in a CE pack) is one that
> > comes from the common sheet, by definition.
>
> That definition is not necessary, however.
Of course it's not necessary.
It's merely what it means.
> It is also conceivable for a slot in a booster pack to be
> populated by mixing cards printed on *different* card sheets at arbitrary ratios.
> I'm pretty sure WotC actually did that in VtES boosters.
I don't hold with that opinion. WotC used, IIRC, 110-card sheets and populated
the V:TES boosters by including a fixed number of cards from each sheet.
> I suspect that may have
> been what Shadowdragon had in mind when suggesting cards from precons be mixed
> into CE booster packs.
Could be.
But that's not what "Common", "Uncommon", "Rare", and "Vampire" mean when referring
to rarity or booster composition in V:TES.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Magnus" <magn...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:70eabfe1.0210...@posting.google.com...
> For a mono POT deck, you are right, as you probably won´t be doing
> more than one strike in the round. I was envisioning something more
> along the lines of the good ol´ CEL/POT deck ( arguably the most
> common rush deck build, I´d say. At least around here. ).
>
> What would *you* prefer ? A deck build with Undead Strenght, Blur,
> Sidestrike, Pursuit, Taste of Vitae, IG and Burning Wrath *or* a deck
> with Torn Signposts, Fist of Death, Blur, Sidestrike, Pursuit, Taste
> of Vitae, IG and Decapitate ? I know which *I* would take, that´s for
> sure.
Hmm, personally, neither of those. In my experience, it doesn't
usually seem worth blowing the 3 blood for Burning Wrath or the 2
blood for Decapitate to burn vampires instead of sending them to
torpor empty. Pulled Fangs is a good no-blood-costing alternative
in my opinion, if you're afraid they're going to come right back
out to taunt you.
Overall, I haven't found Decapitate nearly as important to "good
Potence decks" as you seem to have. But that may be partly because
I've found that good Potence decks are usually more weeniefied (and
so more just-Potence) than CEL/POT, because you don't get enough
actions with CEL/POT to bleed people out and win as easily.
Josh
it doesn't take a scientist
LSJ wrote:
>
> Frederick Scott wrote:
> > It is also conceivable for a slot in a booster pack to be
> > populated by mixing cards printed on *different* card sheets at arbitrary ratios.
> > I'm pretty sure WotC actually did that in VtES boosters.
>
> I don't hold with that opinion. WotC used, IIRC, 110-card sheets and populated
> the V:TES boosters by including a fixed number of cards from each sheet.
WotC used all kinds of different numbers in their cardsheets if you look at their
card lists. It may have been possible that that some of them might work out to 110
if you assume unlisted "doubles" (e.g. something listed as an "uncommon" actually
turns to be an "uncommon 2") existed, but I never detected anything suspicious that
way except what I write about below. Jyhad seemed to use 121-card sheets except my
list only contains 120 rares for some reason. (Likely as not, I screwed up and put
a "rare 2" down as a rare.) The VtES list they give counts up to 91 rares, 103
uncommons, 121 commons, and 121 vampires if you believe it. However, some of their
"vampire-rarity" cards turn up in common and uncommon cardslots, which I discuss
below. Dark Sovereigns has 67 uncommons, 55 commons, 51 "vampire" rarity cards.
Ancient Hearts is rather complicated but it's all nicely explainable if you assume
100-card sheets. The Sabbat is _almost_ understandable: 110 rares, 110 commons, and
110 vampires...but only 80 uncommons. ("Whatthefu...???") So, no, you don't recall
correctly unless you can explain for me a bunch of very strange stuff.
> > I suspect that may have
> > been what Shadowdragon had in mind when suggesting cards from precons be mixed
> > into CE booster packs.
>
> Could be.
> But that's not what "Common", "Uncommon", "Rare", and "Vampire" mean when referring
> to rarity or booster composition in V:TES.
Certain points are difficult to explain any other way. WotC listed several library
cards as "vampire" rarity in their VtES card list. These were all the same ones that
were listed as "vampire" rarity in Jyhad which did in fact appear in vampire slots.
The "vampire" rarity library cards in VtES appeared (reliably, depending on each
individual card) only in either uncommon or common card slots, leaving the vampire
card slots to only vampires. Hence, each VtES booster always has four vampires, never
less.
I suppose it could have been a mistake. It's not like WotC never made mistakes in
their card lists. But I've open enough VtES packs to know you don't get nearly as
many Reversal of Fortunes or Sabbat Threats as, say, Peace Treaties. Perhaps there's
an outside chance I just mysteriously got all the boxes that were short on those cards
and someone else is swimming in them. But having opened plenty of boxes of cards in
my time, I can tell you such behavior never happens. The law of averages don't get
repealed *only* for common-slot cards listed as vampire rarity in VtES. WotC did
something weird and I'm sure it amounts to basically what I said: combining unequal
amounts of cards from different card sheets into (in this case) the pile of cards that
got collated into the common card slots.
Fred
"Magnus" <magn...@gmx.de> wrote in message news:70eabfe1.0210...@posting.google.com...
> "John P." <verg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<LP%s9.14678$EX4....@news1.mts.net>...> > Decapitate is nice but supflerioius to me. Its such a rare event
> > that I need to burn someone, I prefer to use Burning Wrath once they are
> > low on blood. And if they're not low on blood .... bash them some more.
> > (actually having great fun with pot/prt right now, "well that 7 damage was agg,
> > thats enough to burn you? oh my I never realized")
>
> Honestly, I find the available crypt for such a deck to be totally
> inefficient. And what do you do against a guy who dodges ?
Immortal Grapple for the dodgers. Gleam of red eyes and form of Ghost
for maneuvers or presses if needed. Flesh of Marble for staying power.
Claws. Lots of Taste. Uses 1 burning wrath but it could really be cut out.
Currently its major local problems are a large CEL/POT/FOR deck that always
seems to have the needed cards.
Currently my pot/prt decks also has a little fortitude and dom so it looks something like: (from memory)
2 Ilse 6 cap POT,prt,for Blood brother
2 Lazvernius 10 cap POT,FOR,prt +2 hand damage, Archbishop Ventrue Antitribue
1 Maxwell? 9 Cap POT,FOR,PRT Brujah
1Chandler 3 cap PRT Gangrel
2 Steve 5 cap pot, prt Brujah
2 Lis.... 6 cap POT,DOM,prt Lasombra
1 Arnold 2 cap pot (Read: speed bump or diablerizer) Brujah
1 Hruthofur (whatever) 8 cap FOR,dom,prt,pot Ventrue (rush ability)
Avg Vamp cap: 5.5
Min: 15 (16 with no duplicates)
Max: 37
Also had a Group 1 & 2 version losing Max, Arnold, Steve, Hruth but added Nu,
Badger, Zack North, Hector Sosa or Lupo.
> I wasn´t talking about those, although Death of my Concience can be a
> powerful card. Not in the POT/CEL deck I am envisioning, but maybe in
> a Nosferatu POT deck.
It has its place, but the blood cost is exhorbiant. And the fact you have to ditch cards,
hopefully ones you will not need. I find combat decks a little
card intensive.
> What would *you* prefer ? A deck build with Undead Strenght, Blur,
> Sidestrike, Pursuit, Taste of Vitae, IG and Burning Wrath *or* a deck
> with Torn Signposts, Fist of Death, Blur, Sidestrike, Pursuit, Taste
> of Vitae, IG and Decapitate ? I know which *I* would take, that´s for
> sure.
Depends on the deck. Smaller capacities with only pot? Burning wrath over
decapitate. Larger vamps with POT? Might take the decap.
Not a big fan of playing a whole bunch of cards pre range (Torn Signposts, Fists
of Death, Fire in Blood, Increased Strength) as locally there are a bunch of
manuevers sitting out there, would hate to miss the grapple.
If I'm doing cel/pot I would probably no bother with either Burning Wrath or decap,
would just bludgeon them and either amaranth or pulled fangs as Mr Duffin mentioned.
(yeah I know, its a rare :-D )
-JTP
YMMV
-JTP
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3DB4A43F...@white-wolf.com>...
> You overstated the lack of ease prior. That is all.
True, and my apologies for that.
Magnus
mtbed...@rogers.com writes:
>I really hate cards that can only be found in the starters. What if you>want more of a specific card. You have to buy several starters just to
>get multiple copies of one card. Why can't all the cards be included in
>the starters?
Why is buying multiple starters worse than multiple boosters?
You can mimic the effects of boosters containing the
starter-only cards by buying appropriate ratios of starters
and boosters. You can also tune to booster or starter cards
if one type is on average more useful for you. The current
system gives you more flexibility, apart from the logistical
advantages from WW discussed by LSJ.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
Frederick Scott wrote:
> The VtES list they give counts up to 91 rares, 103
> uncommons, 121 commons, and 121 vampires if you believe it. However, some of their
> "vampire-rarity" cards turn up in common and uncommon cardslots, which I discuss
> below.> The Sabbat is _almost_ understandable: 110 rares, 110 commons, and
> 110 vampires...but only 80 uncommons.
Sorry - glitched and swapped Sabbat for VTES. Should've said 121.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ap3t0s$qmata$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>...
> "Magnus" <magn...@gmx.de> wrote in message> Hmm, personally, neither of those. In my experience, it doesn't
> usually seem worth blowing the 3 blood for Burning Wrath or the 2
> blood for Decapitate to burn vampires instead of sending them to
> torpor empty. Pulled Fangs is a good no-blood-costing alternative
> in my opinion, if you're afraid they're going to come right back
> out to taunt you.
Actually, a nice idea. As high-cap vampires ( i.e. 7 and higher ) are
very common in our environment here, permanent burning is seen as the
better alternative. You just don´t appreciate the power of Decapitate,
until your 8-cap vampire is burned in combat, and all you can say is
"What, *no* Bloodhunt?". :)
> Overall, I haven't found Decapitate nearly as important to "good
> Potence decks" as you seem to have. But that may be partly because
> I've found that good Potence decks are usually more weeniefied (and
> so more just-Potence) than CEL/POT, because you don't get enough
> actions with CEL/POT to bleed people out and win as easily.
We simply have a environment here, where Weenie decks are generally
frowned upon, and nobody plays them. Note that under *our* definition
most vampires below 5 are considered "weenies". :)
Magnus
"John P." <verg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xdft9.15080$EX4....@news1.mts.net>...
> Immortal Grapple for the dodgers. Gleam of red eyes and form of Ghost
> for maneuvers or presses if needed. Flesh of Marble for staying power.
> Claws. Lots of Taste. Uses 1 burning wrath but it could really be cut out.
>
> Currently its major local problems are a large CEL/POT/FOR deck that always
> seems to have the needed cards.
I know them. :) I´ve found that Flesh of Marble, while one of the best
PRO cards, has a huge disadvantage : That one point of, maybe,
aggravated damage that comes through. Only solution I´ve found yet is
Adaptability, and that´s also one hard to get card.
> Currently my pot/prt decks also has a little fortitude and dom so it looks something like: (from memory)
> 2 Ilse 6 cap POT,prt,for Blood brother
> 2 Lazvernius 10 cap POT,FOR,prt +2 hand damage, Archbishop Ventrue Antitribue
> 1 Maxwell? 9 Cap POT,FOR,PRT Brujah
> 1Chandler 3 cap PRT Gangrel
> 2 Steve 5 cap pot, prt Brujah
> 2 Lis.... 6 cap POT,DOM,prt Lasombra
> 1 Arnold 2 cap pot (Read: speed bump or diablerizer) Brujah
> 1 Hruthofur (whatever) 8 cap FOR,dom,prt,pot Ventrue (rush ability)
>
> Avg Vamp cap: 5.5
> Min: 15 (16 with no duplicates)
> Max: 37
It´s Hrotulf, and this actually looks quite nice. I´ll have to try it
out one of these days. :)
> It has its place, but the blood cost is exhorbiant. And the fact you have to ditch cards,
> hopefully ones you will not need. I find combat decks a little
> card intensive.
Agreed on both counts. It´s just one of those cards that just screams
"One punch and you are out". It´s usefulness definitely depends on the
average crypt capacity at your table, which is quite high here in
Hamburg.
> Depends on the deck. Smaller capacities with only pot? Burning wrath over
> decapitate. Larger vamps with POT? Might take the decap.
> Not a big fan of playing a whole bunch of cards pre range (Torn Signposts, Fists
> of Death, Fire in Blood, Increased Strength) as locally there are a bunch of
> manuevers sitting out there, would hate to miss the grapple.
Yeah, we have such a prevalence of close range "I beat the snot out of
you" decks here, that I´ve simply decided that I´ll buy long-range
"watch the flying crap!" decks to counter that. ;) Only problem I have
is that THA/CEL deck of one of friends and his other Sabbat
politicians "I´ll make a gazillion Creation Rites, who like to go
hunting in the Hungry Coyote" deck. BTW, the Hungry Coyote must the
*most* broken card I know. Man. Either they should have given the
Camarilla and Indepenents just such a location, too, or never have
brought that !$&%$ card out at all. It´s just *too* good for Sabbat
weenie decks.
> If I'm doing cel/pot I would probably no bother with either Burning Wrath or decap,
> would just bludgeon them and either amaranth or pulled fangs as Mr Duffin mentioned.
> (yeah I know, its a rare :-D )
For little vamps, Pulled Fangs sounds like a very good alternative,
but with high-caps it is much more desirable burning them outright,
IMO. Both have their places. But I´ll go with Mr. Duffins and yours
suggestion and include the PF in my deck. It´ll be interesting how
that works out. :)
Amaranth is simply a problem if you use high-cap vampires for your
fight decks, like I do. Unless you have the total voting power on your
side, you lose a minion you can´t afford to.
Magnus
> I know them. :) I扉e found that Flesh of Marble, while one of the best> PRO cards, has a huge disadvantage : That one point of, maybe,> aggravated damage that comes through. Only solution I扉e found yet is
> Adaptability, and that愀 also one hard to get card.
Would you like to trade for them? I am located in the U.S.A.. Where are
you?
--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:urmo0k1...@corp.supernews.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Or if you would like to trade away the Flesh of Marbles I would be happy to trade them
off of your hands for you. ;-D
-JTP
"John P." <verg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<d0Ku9.619889$f05.25...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca>...
>
> Or if you would like to trade away the Flesh of Marbles I would be happy to trade them
> off of your hands for you. ;-D
<g> Dream on, buddy. I´ve gotten those 13 Flesh of Marble I own at an
highly overpriced auction. No way I´m going to trade those away. :)
Magnus
"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:<urmo0k1...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > I know them. :) I扉e found that Flesh of Marble, while one of the best
> > PRO cards, has a huge disadvantage : That one point of, maybe,
> > aggravated damage that comes through. Only solution I扉e found yet is
> > Adaptability, and that愀 also one hard to get card.
>
> Would you like to trade for them? I am located in the U.S.A.. Where are
> you?
Um, sorry, I must have overlooked this post the past few days <blush>.
I惴 living in Hamburg, Germany. I can send you a list of the cards I
have, but I only need 4 more Adaptability. Maybe we have other stuff
we can trade ? So, if you still want, I惻l send my list. :)
Magnus