What's Actually Broken in the Sabbat

It's a shorter list than you might think. These are rated on a 'lameness scale' of 1 to 10, with 1 being balanced and 10 being Return to Innocence. For comparison, I rate Thoughts Betrayed at 7 (probably lower than most) and Tomb of Rameses III at 8. The list: Goth Band 2 pool Toreador Antitribu Ally Unique Ally with 2 life. 1 hand damage, 0 bleed. As a +1 stealth (D) action, the Goth Band may move one counter from any master card in play to a master card you control that uses counters. Uncommon Lameness: 9.5, way in the "what were they ON?" range. Dreams of the Sphinx+Short Term Investment alone is gross enough -- I'm sure there's lots more to do with these. Dauntain Black Magician (Changeling) 3 Pool Malkavian Antitribu Ally Ally with 4 life. 3 hand damage, 0 bleed. As a (D) action, Dauntain Black Magician can steal a Master Discipline card from a vampire and put it on a vampire you control that does not already have the superior version of that Discipline. As a (D) action, you may burn Black Magician to burn a Tremere antitribu controlled by your predator. Rare Lameness: 8.5 Either of his specials would justify his cost just fine. Both, with 4 life *and* 3 hand damage, make him waaay crazy too good. Succubus 4 pool Tremere Antitribu Ally Ally with 3 life. 1 aggravated damage, 0 bleed. As a +1 stealth (D) action, Succubus may steal 1 blood from a vampire or 1 life from an ally to gain 1 additional life. Once each turn, she may burn 1 life to get +1 bleed. Rare Lameness: 8.5 Aggro hand damage and one of her specials would be worth 4 pool. As with Dauntain, both specials plus aggro hd make her too good of a deal. Leather Jacket Equipment If a minion successfully equips with Leather Jacket, untap that minion at the end of the turn. Burn Leather Jacket to prevent the damage from any strike. A minion can have only one Leather Jacket. Common Lameness: 9 This actually costs less than 0 pool, and can prevent *any* amount of damage from a single strike? What the hell's this jacket lined with? This obsoletes non-celerity combat decks and goes a long way towards obsoleting Fortitude into the bargain. Mind Rape 2 blood Dominate Action (D) Bleed with +2 bleed. * (D) Put this card on a younger vampire; you gain control of that vampire. Put two ego counters on this card. Each untap phase, burn one ego counter on this card. Burn this card when the last counter on it is removed. Rare Lameness: 9 There are *so* many ways to fuck up a vampire under your control. Especially over 3 turns. Finally, Malkavian Dementia for the Malkavians, only better. Unbelievably gross. Shadow Court Satyr (Changeling) 3 pool Gangrel Antitribu Ally Ally with 3 life. 1 hand damage, 1 bleed. When Shadow Court Satyr comes into play, you may put a combat card from your hand on him. During combat, Satyr may use the ability of that card as if that card had been played from your hand. If the card has a cost, he pays its cost in life to use its ability. If the card requires a Discipline, he may only use the basic ability of that card. If the ability would give him blood, give him life instead. Rare Lameness: 7.5 Earth Meld makes him impregnable in combat, so once that's done you have nothing to lose by bleeding with him every turn. Not to mention the many other gross uses. Sleeping Mind, The 1 blood Action Modifier Dominate Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Choose a tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to block this action. * Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this action, and tapped minions cannot block this action. Common Lameness: 7 This makes Misdirection vastly more useful. Pretty dangerous. That's the worst of them. There's a few more second-tier spoilers. Some are only dangerous in combination (Thanks for the Donation + Political Seizure), some are too good deals (Body Flare, strictly better than Body of Sun, and Song in the Dark, giving Animalism aggravated damage for no good reason). Some, like Decapitation, make vampire-burning too easy, continuing what the new aggro rules started. But all in all, about 5% of the expansion is broken enough to require attention -- about 15 cards, 7 of which are really gross, 8 of which are mildly gross (Body Flare, Song in the Dark, Decapitation, Thanks for the Donation, Recruiting Party, Derange, the Hungry Coyote, and War Ghoul). Not Gehenna, but not as good as promised, either. gomi -- 'spend a day and a half dead and the lettuce runs amok.' -babs woods

Karl Innes wrote: > > I would have to disagree. Traditionally eqipment cards that > duplicated skills ( as the leather jacket does ) had a price > appropriate to the skill they duplicated, and of course forced him to > eqip in order to use them. The Leather jacket is basically a skin of > steel at minor.( which usually costs 1) This makes it available to > anyone to use at NO cost. Yes, but you still have to equip with it successfully. With Skin of Steel, there is nothing you can do to stop that from being used. With the LJ, someone with a little intercept could easily stop it from coming into play. > Far superior to a flak jacket and you have to tap and pay one pool > for that. (lets face it if you only take one damage in a cmbt round > your not going up against a cmbt deck anyway, and are not likely to > need dam prevention at all.) Yes, I agree that the LJ is better than the FJ, and maybe they should have given it a cost to equip. But the FJ is able to prevent damage multiple times in a game, which has saved many vamps in games that I've been in. > If you havn't already seen it the Brugah Cel/Pot Leather > jacket deck is on the way. Yes... I'm going to put together a Brujah biker gang deck, once I have a few more LJs. I don't see anything wrong with new cards creating new deck ideas. > Wasn't it bad enough without the trump of a leather jacket if you > actually do beat the dodge or get in a strike??? > Good luck ever getting your 1 aggro "feint" in, after he dodges it > you'll be dogmeat before you get to attempt your follow up strike. Well, like I said before... you could also destroy the LJ with various cards. > Fortitude WAS hard to combine with celerity. Most of the vampires that > shared it as a discipine were large. Now who cares? You can replace > all the dam prevention cards with the no skill required LJ and off you > go. Including the LJ doesn't suddenly make a deck wonderful at damage prevention. Defensive fortitude decks will still have greater damage prevention ability. > As to the point about sacraficing an action to equip with the > LJ isn't that the point with equipment??? You get to untap at the end > of the round for free. Not much of a disadvantage and certainly not > just a cool effect, especially if you're playing an intercept combat > deck. I never said that it was a disadvantage... but it certainly is not much of an advantage. The ability just seems fitting. > You're right in one respect though it is a cool card, one that > everyony should include a few of in their decks, right next to the > other broken cards we now are forced to play with to counter still > more broken cards. No argument there... There are definitely some broken cards in the Sabbat. I just don't think that the LJ is one of them. -- David Kent -aka- Constant Hazard \----------------------/ \ haz...@potomac.net / \------------------/

In article <01bbc9b5$23806060$446ed3c6@elfholme>, Mark Havener <elfh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >Gomi no Sensei <go...@best.com> wrote in article ><55gbj4$c...@shellx.best.com>... > >I agree, most of the cards you posted about look prety gross, but this >one?: >> Shadow Court Satyr (Changeling) [snipeaux] >If it's unbalanced (which it isn't, IMHO), it's not for the reason you >describe. If you send him in to bleed, you have to announce your combat >action first, right? >So if he wants to Earth Meld, he's got to announce it >before you announce your attack...if I put EM on him, he'd be a straight >blocker...and while it would be great to have a blocker that is virtually >impossible to touch, he has no intercept at all, so he's rather limited... >If I wanted to set him up as a bleeder, I'd be more likely to equip him >with Wolf Claws (though that's very likely to kill him), or some kind of >damage prevention... You do have a point there. I think I'll downgrade his spoiler status to 2 or 3 -- barely a problem, if any. I guess his nigh-invulnerability is a little hard to exploit to any constructive use. gomi hell, even i'm overreacting to the sabbat, and i think everyone else is [ quoted text not captured ]

Gomi no Sensei <go...@best.com> wrote in article <55gbj4$c...@shellx.best.com>... I agree, most of the cards you posted about look prety gross, but this one?: > Shadow Court Satyr (Changeling) > 3 pool > Gangrel Antitribu > Ally > Ally with 3 life. > 1 hand damage, 1 bleed. > When Shadow Court Satyr comes into play, you may put a combat card from your > hand on him. During combat, Satyr may use the ability of that card as if that > card had been played from your hand. If the card has a cost, he pays its cost > in life to use its ability. If the card requires a Discipline, he may only > use the basic ability of that card. If the ability would give him blood, give > him life instead. > > Lameness: 7.5 > > Earth Meld makes him impregnable in combat, so once that's done you have nothing > to lose by bleeding with him every turn. Not to mention the many other gross > uses. If it's unbalanced (which it isn't, IMHO), it's not for the reason you describe. If you send him in to bleed, you have to announce your combat action first, right? So if he wants to Earth Meld, he's got to announce it before you announce your attack...if I put EM on him, he'd be a straight blocker...and while it would be great to have a blocker that is virtually impossible to touch, he has no intercept at all, so he's rather limited... If I wanted to set him up as a bleeder, I'd be more likely to equip him with Wolf Claws (though that's very likely to kill him), or some kind of damage prevention... -Elfholme

> If it's unbalanced (which it isn't, IMHO), it's not for the reason you > describe. If you send him in to bleed, you have to announce your combat > action first, right? So if he wants to Earth Meld, he's got to announce it > before you announce your attack...if I put EM on him, he'd be a straight > blocker...and while it would be great to have a blocker that is virtually > impossible to touch, he has no intercept at all, so he's rather limited... > > If I wanted to set him up as a bleeder, I'd be more likely to equip him > with Wolf Claws (though that's very likely to kill him), or some kind of > damage prevention... > > -Elfholme Hmm I might be mistaken but what ever gave you the idea that you had to decide what to do in any given combat before blocking has even been declared? As far as I know this IS a truly revolting card, and there is no reason you can't bleed, and if blocked, earthmeld. Barring a dog pack or maybe thoughts betrayed, (does "as if played out of your hand" qualify as a card played???) this ally is invulnerable in combat. sounds pretty broken to me. Karl

> I don't see anything wrong with the Leather Jacket. In fact, it is one > of the more interresting cards that I have seen. The ability to untap > at the end of the turn in which they equip with the Leather Jacket is > just a cool effect. After all, you don't get to untap until the end of > the turn. So, it just gives you the ability to block immediately; you > can't do any other action with the vampire in that turn. Also, the > ability to prevent damage from one strike is not as broken as you imply. > You just trick him into using the jacket on something like a small agg > damage strike... then you press, and take his ego down a few notches. > Or, better yet, don't even waste a damage card on it... use Canine Horde > or Fractured Armament. > -- > David Kent > -aka- > Constant Hazard > \----------------------/ > \ haz...@potomac.net / > \------------------/ I would have to disagree. Traditionally eqipment cards that duplicated skills ( as the leather jacket does ) had a price appropriate to the skill they duplicated, and of course forced him to eqip in order to use them. The Leather jacket is basically a skin of steel at minor.( which usually costs 1) This makes it available to anyone to use at NO cost. Far superior to a flak jacket and you have to tap and pay one pool for that. (lets face it if you only take one damage in a cmbt round your not going up against a cmbt deck anyway, and are not likely to need dam prevention at all.) If you havn't already seen it the Brugah Cel/Pot Leather jacket deck is on the way. Wasn't it bad enough without the trump of a leather jacket if you actually do beat the dodge or get in a strike??? Good luck ever getting your 1 aggro "feint" in, after he dodges it you'll be dogmeat before you get to attempt your follow up strike. Fortitude WAS hard to combine with celerity. Most of the vampires that shared it as a discipine were large. Now who cares? You can replace all the dam prevention cards with the no skill required LJ and off you go. As to the point about sacraficing an action to equip with the LJ isn't that the point with equipment??? You get to untap at the end of the round for free. Not much of a disadvantage and certainly not just a cool effect, especially if you're playing an intercept combat deck. You're right in one respect though it is a cool card, one that everyony should include a few of in their decks, right next to the other broken cards we now are forced to play with to counter still more broken cards. Karl

On 2 Nov 1996 12:40:04 -0800, go...@best.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: >It's a shorter list than you might think. Well, yes, but I must say these aren't the cards that I would think of as broken in any way. Overpowered and/or annoying? Yes. As broken and obnoxious as even Seeds of Corruption? Please, spare me. >The list: > >Goth Band >2 pool >Toreador Antitribu >Ally >Unique Ally with 2 life. >1 hand damage, 0 bleed. >As a +1 stealth (D) action, the Goth Band may move >one counter from any master card in play to a master >card you control that uses counters. >Uncommon > >Lameness: 9.5, way in the "what were they ON?" range. >Dreams of the Sphinx+Short Term Investment alone is gross >enough -- I'm sure there's lots more to do with these. Note that the counter moved from the Dreams is _not_ a blood counter. This doesn't make the combo any less useful from the perspective of the Dreams, but you aren't gaining double. The Goth Band is cool with the Dreams(arguably the broken card in this combination; if it had been "take a counter off dreams of the sphinx when it's tapped; place 3 counters on it when it enters play" this never would have happened), but I can't see it being broken or even overpowered without it. It's an ally; it can be stolen, blocked, and oh, Killed. No big deal. >Dauntain Black Magician (Changeling) >3 Pool >Malkavian Antitribu >Ally >Ally with 4 life. >3 hand damage, 0 bleed. >As a (D) action, Dauntain Black Magician can steal a Master >Discipline card from a vampire and put it on a vampire you >control that does not already have the superior version of >that Discipline. As a (D) action, you may burn Black Magician >to burn a Tremere antitribu controlled by your predator. >Rare > >Lameness: 8.5 >Either of his specials would justify his cost just fine. Both, >with 4 life *and* 3 hand damage, make him waaay crazy too good. Mmmm.... The Anti-clan specific hose isn't a very good ability; better than Kherebutu, but Kherebutu ought to have gotten more than that. With just that, he would have been useless. The stealing disciplines effect is nice if people are playing with disciplines that you're using, but otherwise, it'll just take away abilities and tick people off. Once again, annoying, but not insane. >Succubus >4 pool >Tremere Antitribu >Ally >Ally with 3 life. >1 aggravated damage, 0 bleed. >As a +1 stealth (D) action, Succubus may steal 1 blood from a >vampire or 1 life from an ally to gain 1 additional life. >Once each turn, she may burn 1 life to get +1 bleed. >Rare > >Lameness: 8.5 >Aggro hand damage and one of her specials would be worth 4 pool. >As with Dauntain, both specials plus aggro hd make her too good >of a deal. Okay, she's slightly overboard. The Nephandus mage is too. But that just might be the Tremere Bias (tm) continued over onto the antitribu. >Leather Jacket >Equipment >If a minion successfully equips with Leather Jacket, untap that >minion at the end of the turn. Burn Leather Jacket to prevent the >damage from any strike. A minion can have only one Leather Jacket. >Common > >Lameness: 9 > >This actually costs less than 0 pool, and can prevent *any* amount >of damage from a single strike? What the hell's this jacket >lined with? This obsoletes non-celerity combat decks and goes a long >way towards obsoleting Fortitude into the bargain. As others have commented, this just ain't so. It takes an action to get; fortitidue can be used in combat w/ out taking an action beforehand. You can always press past the first round of combat if someone has been irritating with their jackets. And it doesn't help you win the game at all. Okay, you survive combat. I have my vampires vote/bleed you to pieces. Isn't it peachy that your hand is all leather jackets? >Mind Rape >2 blood >Dominate >Action >(D) Bleed with +2 bleed. >* (D) Put this card on a younger vampire; you gain control of that vampire. >Put two ego counters on this card. Each untap phase, burn one ego counter on >this card. Burn this card when the last counter on it is removed. >Rare > >Lameness: 9 > >There are *so* many ways to fuck up a vampire under your control. Especially >over 3 turns. Finally, Malkavian Dementia for the Malkavians, only better. >Unbelievably gross. Mmmm... the only clan which can use this really effectively is the Malks from the Camarilla. And how do you propose to abuse it massively; return to Innocence? It's a nasty card, but at no stealth, most people aren't going to be able to get it through. Mind you, I don't like it, but it sure as hell isn't on the level of Tomb of Rameses. I still think that a Wolf-claws/Graverobbing combination is nastier by far. >Shadow Court Satyr (Changeling) >3 pool >Gangrel Antitribu >Ally >Ally with 3 life. >1 hand damage, 1 bleed. >When Shadow Court Satyr comes into play, you may put a combat card from your >hand on him. During combat, Satyr may use the ability of that card as if that >card had been played from your hand. If the card has a cost, he pays its cost >in life to use its ability. If the card requires a Discipline, he may only >use the basic ability of that card. If the ability would give him blood, give >him life instead. >Rare > >Lameness: 7.5 > >Earth Meld makes him impregnable in combat, so once that's done you have nothing >to lose by bleeding with him every turn. Not to mention the many other gross >uses. Like? The card costs 3 pool. The Earth meld is the most abusive use that I could come up with for this guy; theft of vitae and illusions of the kindred didn't even come close. Even wolf claws will have him bruned in two combats. Not all that impressive. >Sleeping Mind, The >1 blood >Action Modifier >Dominate >Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Choose a >tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to block this action. >* Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Minions >cannot untap during this action, and tapped minions cannot block this action. >Common > >Lameness: 7 > >This makes Misdirection vastly more useful. Pretty dangerous. Yeah? And? The only problem this causes is making an action unblockable by an untap deck. Hardly a major swing in my mind; even with misdirection, it's a good, but not broken card. It just changes the enviroment slightly is all. The untapper will be able to pull untaps on any other actions the person who played the sleeping mind attempts, unless he's packing a lot of them, at which point his hand clogs. >That's the worst of them. There's a few more second-tier spoilers. Some are >only dangerous in combination (Thanks for the Donation + Political Seizure), It's a nice combo, but what if the other guy yeilds? You've lost two pool, gained a location, and maybe cost your prey a pool. The Thanks can be burned, as well. And the Lasombra, I hate to say, are not that capable of intercepting and fighting if they intercept. People ignore the "May be burned as a D action" clauses on cards too often in play.... >some >are too good deals (Body Flare, strictly better than Body of Sun, Um, no. Body of the Sun practically killed everything in the combat(Which can be _very_ useful at times), and was ranged at basic. I don't see Body Flare unbalancing the game; most of the time in my Gangrel deck, I'll just manuver back to close and use my hands on whatever poor sot I've decided to kill. >and Song in the >Dark, giving Animalism aggravated damage for no good reason). And there has to be a reason? Animalism didn't need it, but do you find it much more terrifying now that it has it? The issue would be whether each discipline having aggravated damage is good; it's not, but I doubt that Song in the Dark will do much to break the game(superior animalism aggravated damage, huh? Can't every clan with Animalism do aggravated first round damage except the Ravnos, and even them sometimes?) > Some, like >Decapitation, make vampire-burning too easy, continuing what the new aggro rules >started. Decapitation, compared to what I was afraid of when I saw the name on the list, is quite decent. Only at superior potence, and only if the vampire is going to torpor. Seems fairish to me.... It's like a conditional amaranth, and I don't see anyone screaming about that, except perhaps in combo with muaziz, or an archon. >But all in all, about 5% of the expansion is broken enough to require attention -- >about 15 cards, 7 of which are really gross, 8 of which are mildly gross (Body Flare, >Song in the Dark, Decapitation, Thanks for the Donation, Recruiting Party, Derange, the >Hungry Coyote, and War Ghoul). The only one of those which merits the name is War Ghoul, which at most is somewhat overpowered. The cards which are problematic are, (and I will state it again) mainly vampires who have been consistently made overpowered, thus unbalancing the basis of the game(Dragos, Jacko,.. add your list here). The disciplines which were most favored were Celerity and Potence: Celerity got much more flexible extra strike cards like Side Strike and Pursuit, as well as Quickness and Lightning Reflexes, which people have(rightly) expressed concern about, and labeled Broken(which the are with any strikes which do more than one damage per strike). I personally vote for Infernal Familiar combined with Mind Rape and a Heidleburg, the Crimson Sentinel alone, or especially in a trapped combat; the sword of Judgement, especially on Jacko, and Shotgun Ritual(hey, Celerity/Thau goes psychotic, and Nathan's come up with a deck based around Shotgun Rituals, Fast Reactions, Hidden Lurkers, and ending the first combat before the opposition can do anything. It looks seriously disgusting). >Not Gehenna, but not as good as promised, either. Oh, I see the Antediluvians awakening. One's named Dragos, One's named Ian Forestal, and the other is Jacko. Lambach, Caelean, and a number of the other 9 and 10 capacities are pushing the limit too... ;) But seriously, although some library cards are f*$%ed, the main problem with the set is the vampires. Alec Chang

In article <327d9c3a....@news.lava.net>, Alec Chang <te...@lava.net> wrote: >On 2 Nov 1996 12:40:04 -0800, go...@best.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: >>It's a shorter list than you might think. >Well, yes, but I must say these aren't the cards that I would think of >as broken in any way. Overpowered and/or annoying? Yes. As broken >and obnoxious as even Seeds of Corruption? Please, spare me. Seeds of Corruption, broken? How? It's an effective, burnable nuisance, on a par with Charnas the Imp or Society of Leopold. >>The list: >>Goth Band >>2 pool >>Toreador Antitribu >>Ally >>Unique Ally with 2 life. >>1 hand damage, 0 bleed. >>As a +1 stealth (D) action, the Goth Band may move >>one counter from any master card in play to a master >>card you control that uses counters. >>Uncommon >>Lameness: 9.5, way in the "what were they ON?" range. >>Dreams of the Sphinx+Short Term Investment alone is gross >>enough -- I'm sure there's lots more to do with these. >Note that the counter moved from the Dreams is _not_ a blood counter. [snip] Nuts to that. Counters is counters, without specific errata to the contrary -- which would fix it, mind you. Mind you, it's not as eevil as I first thought -- I'm scaling myself back on the brokenness issue. >>Dauntain Black Magician (Changeling) >>3 Pool >>Malkavian Antitribu >>Ally >>Ally with 4 life. >>3 hand damage, 0 bleed. >>As a (D) action, Dauntain Black Magician can steal a Master >>Discipline card from a vampire and put it on a vampire you >>control that does not already have the superior version of >>that Discipline. As a (D) action, you may burn Black Magician >>to burn a Tremere antitribu controlled by your predator. >>Rare >>Lameness: 8.5 >>Either of his specials would justify his cost just fine. Both, >>with 4 life *and* 3 hand damage, make him waaay crazy too good. >Mmmm.... The Anti-clan specific hose isn't a very good ability; Anti-Malks can Cloak his Gathering, y'know. And I hesitate to call automatic vampire-burning 'not very good'. >The stealing >disciplines effect is nice if people are playing with disciplines that >you're using, but otherwise, it'll just take away abilities and tick >people off. Once again, annoying, but not insane. I disagree -- many decks rely on (a) superior something, (b) an out-of-clan discipline, or (c) both. This special will see frequent and effective use, IMO. >>Succubus >>4 pool >>Tremere Antitribu >>Ally >>Ally with 3 life. >>1 aggravated damage, 0 bleed. >>As a +1 stealth (D) action, Succubus may steal 1 blood from a >>vampire or 1 life from an ally to gain 1 additional life. >>Once each turn, she may burn 1 life to get +1 bleed. >>Rare >>Lameness: 8.5 >>Aggro hand damage and one of her specials would be worth 4 pool. >>As with Dauntain, both specials plus aggro hd make her too good >>of a deal. >Okay, she's slightly overboard. The Nephandus mage is too. But that >just might be the Tremere Bias (tm) continued over onto the antitribu. Which doesn't really justify them. >>Leather Jacket >>Equipment >>If a minion successfully equips with Leather Jacket, untap that >>minion at the end of the turn. Burn Leather Jacket to prevent the >>damage from any strike. A minion can have only one Leather Jacket. >>Common >>Lameness: 9 >>This actually costs less than 0 pool, and can prevent *any* amount >>of damage from a single strike? What the hell's this jacket >>lined with? This obsoletes non-celerity combat decks and goes a long >>way towards obsoleting Fortitude into the bargain. >As others have commented, this just ain't so. It takes an action to >get; fortitidue can be used in combat w/ out taking an action >beforehand. You can always press past the first round of combat if >someone has been irritating with their jackets. And it doesn't help >you win the game at all. Okay, you survive combat. I have my >vampires vote/bleed you to pieces. Isn't it peachy that your hand is >all leather jackets? Dude, if you're playing Vote/Bleed, I don't *need* the Jackets to survive combat with you. The LJs are great *for* Vote/Bleed, mind you, especially the less combat-resilient clans like Malks and Setites. What LJs do is monkeywrench combat -- and the equip action is no cost at all, given the free end-of-turn untap. Keeping your vampires alive in the teeth of a combat deck may well win you the odd victory point or six. >>Mind Rape >>2 blood >>Dominate >>Action >>(D) Bleed with +2 bleed. >>* (D) Put this card on a younger vampire; you gain control of that vampire. >>Put two ego counters on this card. Each untap phase, burn one ego counter on >>this card. Burn this card when the last counter on it is removed. >>Rare >>Lameness: 9 >>There are *so* many ways to fuck up a vampire under your control. Especially >>over 3 turns. Finally, Malkavian Dementia for the Malkavians, only better. >>Unbelievably gross. >Mmmm... the only clan which can use this really effectively is the >Malks from the Camarilla. And how do you propose to abuse it >massively; return to Innocence? 'Gee, you have no blockers. Oh wait, I own them all. Let me bleed you 8 times, okay?' No one does Stealth/Dominate like the Malkavians -- Mind Rape's long hangtime means there's one or two turns to get fourish actions through, which is eminently possible. Add Heidelburg Castle to steal any goodies and blood, plus mucho self-inflicted aggro via a number of means, and this can dismantle a defense faster than most combat decks. >It's a nasty card, but at no stealth, >most people aren't going to be able to get it through. Mind you, I >don't like it, but it sure as hell isn't on the level of Tomb of >Rameses. I still think that a Wolf-claws/Graverobbing combination is >nastier by far. ToR wins only because anyone can use it -- Claws/Graverobbing doesn't even come close. It'll only work when facing a combat-naive deck. >>Shadow Court Satyr (Changeling) >>3 pool >>Gangrel Antitribu >>Ally >>Ally with 3 life. >>1 hand damage, 1 bleed. >>When Shadow Court Satyr comes into play, you may put a combat card from your >>hand on him. During combat, Satyr may use the ability of that card as if that >>card had been played from your hand. If the card has a cost, he pays its cost >>in life to use its ability. If the card requires a Discipline, he may only >>use the basic ability of that card. If the ability would give him blood, give >>him life instead. >>Rare >>Lameness: 7.5 >>Earth Meld makes him impregnable in combat, so once that's done you have nothing >>to lose by bleeding with him every turn. Not to mention the many other gross >>uses. >Like? The card costs 3 pool. The Earth meld is the most abusive use >that I could come up with for this guy; theft of vitae and illusions >of the kindred didn't even come close. Even wolf claws will have him >bruned in two combats. Not all that impressive. I've conceded this point elsewhere in the thread -- he's invulnerable in combat, so he's basically a cool blocker on a par with Ambrosius the Ferryman. Not a big deal, yah. >>Sleeping Mind, The >>1 blood >>Action Modifier >>Dominate >>Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Choose a >>tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to block this action. >>* Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Minions >>cannot untap during this action, and tapped minions cannot block this action. >>Common >>Lameness: 7 >>This makes Misdirection vastly more useful. Pretty dangerous. >Yeah? And? The only problem this causes is making an action >unblockable by an untap deck. Hardly a major swing in my mind; even >with misdirection, it's a good, but not broken card. It just changes >the enviroment slightly is all. The untapper will be able to pull >untaps on any other actions the person who played the sleeping mind >attempts, unless he's packing a lot of them, at which point his hand >clogs. Eeeh. I reckon you're right on that. I'm just bitter at seeing the nice Misdirection/Wake balance of power tip, even a little. >It's a nice combo, but what if the other guy yeilds? You've lost two >pool, gained a location, and maybe cost your prey a pool. The Thanks >can be burned, as well. And the Lasombra, I hate to say, are not that >capable of intercepting and fighting if they intercept. People ignore >the "May be burned as a D action" clauses on cards too often in >play.... The Lasombra can fight better than it appears at first glance. Shadow Step (what Thoughts Betrayed might have been in another universe) sets range to close, Immortal Grapple, big ugly potence strike. If you're feeling really expansive, Burning Wrath and Decapitation -- auto-burn for 7 blood. Shotgun Ritual + Eldritch Glimmer can't compare. >>some >>are too good deals (Body Flare, strictly better than Body of Sun, >Um, no. Body of the Sun practically killed everything in the >combat(Which can be _very_ useful at times), and was ranged at basic. >I don't see Body Flare unbalancing the game; most of the time in my >Gangrel deck, I'll just manuver back to close and use my hands on >whatever poor sot I've decided to kill. Okay, I can grant this. >>and Song in the >>Dark, giving Animalism aggravated damage for no good reason). >And there has to be a reason? Animalism didn't need it, but do you >find it much more terrifying now that it has it? The issue would be >whether each discipline having aggravated damage is good; it's not, >but I doubt that Song in the Dark will do much to break the >game(superior animalism aggravated damage, huh? Can't every clan with >Animalism do aggravated first round damage except the Ravnos, and even >them sometimes?) It doesn't break the game, but it irks my design sense. It's not a spoiler, or even overpowered. It just bugs me. But that's a personal problem, not a design one. >> Some, like >>Decapitation, make vampire-burning too easy, continuing what the new aggro rules >>started. >Decapitation, compared to what I was afraid of when I saw the name on >the list, is quite decent. Only at superior potence, and only if the >vampire is going to torpor. Seems fairish to me.... It's like a >conditional amaranth, and I don't see anyone screaming about that, >except perhaps in combo with muaziz, or an archon. Um, no. It's burn, not diablerize -- so no hunts, wild or blood. OTOH, it's cost-justifiable, so yah, fairish. >>But all in all, about 5% of the expansion is broken enough to require attention -- >>about 15 cards, 7 of which are really gross, 8 of which are mildly gross (Body Flare, >>Song in the Dark, Decapitation, Thanks for the Donation, Recruiting Party, Derange, the >>Hungry Coyote, and War Ghoul). >The only one of those which merits the name is War Ghoul, which at >most is somewhat overpowered. >The cards which are problematic are, >(and I will state it again) mainly vampires who have been consistently >made overpowered, thus unbalancing the basis of the game(Dragos, >Jacko,.. add your list here). The disciplines which were most favored Dragos is unbelievably gross. But Jacko? Pfui. 4 strikes vs. 3, or even 5 vs. 4, is not big enough of a deal. If you can't avoid combat with a brujah, you're going to get mangled; they can do it in 3 strikes and a press, or they can do it in 4 strikes. Quickness and its much lamer cousin, Lightining Reflexes, don't do that much. LR is entirely too expensive to be useful -- 3 blood to equal Blur, 4 to equal Blur + Quickness? If you really need 6 or 7 strikes to put someone away, I submit that you're not packing the right strikes. >were Celerity and Potence: Celerity got much more flexible extra >strike cards like Side Strike and Pursuit, as well as Quickness and >Lightning Reflexes, which people have(rightly) expressed concern >about, and labeled Broken(which the are with any strikes which do more >than one damage per strike). I personally vote for Infernal Familiar >combined with Mind Rape and a Heidleburg, the Crimson Sentinel alone, >or especially in a trapped combat; the sword of Judgement, especially >on Jacko, and Shotgun Ritual(hey, Celerity/Thau goes psychotic, and >Nathan's come up with a deck based around Shotgun Rituals, Fast >Reactions, Hidden Lurkers, and ending the first combat before the >opposition can do anything. It looks seriously disgusting). > >>Not Gehenna, but not as good as promised, either. > >Oh, I see the Antediluvians awakening. One's named Dragos, One's named >Ian Forestal, and the other is Jacko. Lambach, Caelean, and a number >of the other 9 and 10 capacities are pushing the limit too... ;) Pff. Ian's squarely within a standard deviation -- he's Anvil-level cool. Jacko's ability is useful -- top end of cool, but not above it. >But seriously, although some library cards are f*$%ed, the main >problem with the set is the vampires. Especially the vast quantities of pathetic 5pointers, especially combined with the undercosted 5pointers. Whee -- instant wallpaper. gomi Dragos, now, he needs a fixin' [ quoted text not captured ]

Karl Innes <in...@infomatch.com> wrote in article <327D8C...@infomatch.com>... > > If it's unbalanced (which it isn't, IMHO), it's not for the reason you > > describe. If you send him in to bleed, you have to announce your combat > > action first, right? So if he wants to Earth Meld, he's got to announce it > > before you announce your attack...if I put EM on him, he'd be a straight > > blocker...and while it would be great to have a blocker that is virtually > > impossible to touch, he has no intercept at all, so he's rather limited... > > > > If I wanted to set him up as a bleeder, I'd be more likely to equip him > > with Wolf Claws (though that's very likely to kill him), or some kind of > > damage prevention... > > > > -Elfholme > > Hmm I might be mistaken but what ever gave you the idea that you > had to decide what to do in any given combat before blocking has even > been declared? I never said that. I simply said that the Satyr had to announce his attack before the blocker. > As far as I know this IS a truly revolting card, and > there is no reason you can't bleed, and if blocked, earthmeld. Barring a > dog pack or maybe thoughts betrayed, (does "as if played out of your > hand" qualify as a card played???) this ally is invulnerable in combat. > sounds pretty broken to me. So he taps one of your vamps, if you want to stop a 1 bleed. That doesn't sound very broken to me. He has no stealth, can't up the bleed, and he *can* be killed (just hard to do in combat, but even that's possible given certain cards). He's a good ally, but broken? I'd say without the special ability he'd be wallpaper, but we probably see these things differently... -Elfholme

te...@lava.net (Alec Chang) writes: > On 2 Nov 1996 12:40:04 -0800, go...@best.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: > > >Mind Rape > >2 blood > >Dominate > >Action > >(D) Bleed with +2 bleed. > >* (D) Put this card on a younger vampire; you gain control of that vampire. > >Put two ego counters on this card. Each untap phase, burn one ego counter on > >this card. Burn this card when the last counter on it is removed. > >Rare > > > >Lameness: 9 > > > >There are *so* many ways to fuck up a vampire under your control. Especially > >over 3 turns. Finally, Malkavian Dementia for the Malkavians, only better. > >Unbelievably gross. At first glance, I thought so too, but nota bene: you burn one ego counter on _each_ untap phase. So, you control this vampire on your turn and your prey's turn, then return it. (At least, I really hope it is so!) > >Not Gehenna, but not as good as promised, either. > > Oh, I see the Antediluvians awakening. One's named Dragos, One's named > Ian Forestal, and the other is Jacko. Lambach, Caelean, and a number > of the other 9 and 10 capacities are pushing the limit too... ;) > > But seriously, although some library cards are f*$%ed, the main > problem with the set is the vampires. Complete agreement from me. In addition, I am a bit worried about Spirit Summoning Chamber 2 pool Tremere Antitribu Master: Unique Location Tap this card and burn 1 blood from a ready Tremere antitribu you control to search your library for a minion card that requires Thaumaturgy. Show to everybody, discard to max hand size, shuffle library. I don't think Thaumaturgy / Tremere antitribu were so weak that they required this kind of boost. The one thing keeping them in control was the difficulty of the killing combinations. Heikki hp...@pcu.helsinki.fi

In article <327d9c3a....@news.lava.net>, te...@lava.net (Alec Chang) writes: [ quoted text not captured ] I think I might try Burst of Sunlight on him. It does 1R aggravated damage to all vampires in the combat at inferior. Isn't that interesting? It may be worth using some small Gangrel (or changing the clan of a Tremere) in order to get a vamp-torporing-with-no-damage-to-himself ally in my control. They can maybe kill him but they go to torpor. What do you think, Sirs? Doug Dunaway

> > I think I might try Burst of Sunlight on him. It does 1R aggravated > damage to all vampires in the combat at inferior. Isn't that interesting? > It may be worth using some small Gangrel (or changing the clan of a > Tremere) in order to get a vamp-torporing-with-no-damage-to-himself ally > in my control. They can maybe kill him but they go to torpor. What do > you think, Sirs? > > Doug Dunaway Ack. Thats sick. I thought the Talaq the Immortal trick with Burst of Sunlight was sick but this is far more devious. Hope no one I play with thinks of it :). Karl

DOUGDWISE <doug...@aol.com> wrote in article <55pr21$7...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>... > In article <327d9c3a....@news.lava.net>, te...@lava.net (Alec Chang) > writes: > > > [ quoted text not captured ] > I think I might try Burst of Sunlight on him. It does 1R aggravated > damage to all vampires in the combat at inferior. Isn't that interesting? > It may be worth using some small Gangrel (or changing the clan of a > Tremere) in order to get a vamp-torporing-with-no-damage-to-himself ally > in my control. They can maybe kill him but they go to torpor. What do > you think, Sirs? I guess you have come up with the real way to abuse this card. Sounds throughly obnoxious. Steve Bucy

I still do not feel that the new allies in Sabbat are 'broken'. Yes, Some of the Changlings and the War Ghoul are powerful, but all that will mean is that people will have to modify decks a little to take the new allies into account. If you feel the new allies are a big deal, try putting in one or two Far Mastery, Entrancement, Cryptic Mission or Jar the Soul. Even better, dust off those Kindred Segregations (remember that card?) and put them in the deck. It won't kill a deck design to put in one or two ally-hosers. The Vampires are a different story. I too, think Dragos is the strongest vampire in the set. Until I see those unstoppable Dragos decks, I'll reserve judgement on whether he's 'broken' or not. Besides, if he's so good he'll contest fairly often, at least in theory. Sabbat is not broken, it just takes a little bit of getting used to. -- Glen McKay (mishra worker)

How about equipping him with a weapon and giving him taste of vitae... Infinite health? Ferdinand Hui

Mishra worker writes: >I still do not feel that the new allies in Sabbat are 'broken'. Yes, Some >of the Changlings and the War Ghoul are powerful, but all that will mean is >that people will have to modify decks a little to take the new allies into >account. I think the last two expansion have done a good job upping the power of Allies. The Sabbat hasn't reached the antipodes yet, but I have a feeling we'll be seeing more Allies used. At the moment I see approximately none. Making Allies people will use, means people will use more anti-Ally stuff. I don't see any of the new stuff as unbalanced. -- ________________ ______ ___@^^^^\ / \ I break for Craw Wurms! / \ @ \_____/ David Schwartz \__________________________/ > (^^^^^\ _______ ___/ \---\ / \ da...@schwartz.manawatu.gen.nz / \_____________/ \__________________________________/

In article <3287F0...@virginia.edu>, ferd...@virginia.edu wrote: > How about equipping him with a weapon and giving him taste of vitae... You can't "give" anyone Taste of Vitae. You play the card, it does its thing once and hies itself to the heap o' ash. > Infinite health? > > Ferdinand Hui J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> PGP keys by request

In article <19961112190...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, curt...@aol.com writes >Ferdinand Hui <ferd...@virginia.edu> writes: > >>How about equipping him with a weapon and giving him >taste of vitae... > >>Infinite health? > >That headache is avoided on the technicality that as an ally, the Satyr >can't play Taste of Vitae. > >Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) Well, let's just look at the card shall we. "When Shadow Court Satyr comes into play, you may put a combat card from your hand on him. During combat, Satyr may use the ability of that card as if that card had been played from your hand. If the card has a cost, he pays its cost in life to use its ability. If the card requires a Discipline, he may only use the basic ability of that card. If the ability would give him blood, give him life instead." Now, why exactly would the Satyr be unable to play a Taste of Vitae? If your saying that its because it gives him blood then, as the card states, you give him blood. Also, if its because its a combat card then people like Talaq, the Immortal are pretty much dumped on aren't they. And as a rule, when a card is on a vampire you ignore who it has to be played on (ie if Taste of Viate could only be played on a vampire). If you didn't then switching a Femur of Toomler to Zack North would burn it surely? Oh, by the way, this isn't my e-mail address - it's a friends so if you flame him do it nicely (or direct the comments at me please). -- James Coupe "It isn't easy having a good time - even smiling makes my face ache."

Justin Grace <Jus...@bgrace.demon.co.uk> writes: >Now, why exactly would the Satyr be unable to play a Taste of Vitae? Simple. ToV says "This vampire gains all the blood lost by the opposing vampire." If the Satyr plays it, there's no "this vampire", because the Satyr isn't an vampire. Maybe the Satyr can play it (I'm not sure if allies can play ToV - they would gain nothing, and it makes no sense, but the cards doesn't say "only playable by a vampire", so I guess they technically could.) but if the Satyr does, there's no legitimate target to receive the blood from ToV. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

Justin Grace (actually James Coupe) <Jus...@bgrace.demon.co.uk> wrote: > In article <19961112190...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, > curt...@aol.com writes > >Ferdinand Hui <ferd...@virginia.edu> writes: > > > >>How about equipping him with a weapon and giving him >taste of vitae... > > > >>Infinite health? > > > >That headache is avoided on the technicality that as an ally, the Satyr > >can't play Taste of Vitae. > > > >Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) > > Well, let's just look at the card shall we. > > "When Shadow Court Satyr comes into play, you may put a combat card from > your hand on him. During combat, Satyr may use the ability of that card > as if that card had been played from your hand. If the card has a cost, > he pays its cost in life to use its ability. If the card requires a > Discipline, he may only use the basic ability of that card. If the > ability would give him blood, give him life instead." > > Now, why exactly would the Satyr be unable to play a Taste of Vitae? Because it's a card playable only by vampires: Taste of Vitae Combat This vampire gains all the blood lost during the current round of combat by the opposing vampire. Play after the strike resolution. Not usable by a vampire going to torpor. The text of Shadow Court Satyr doesn't offer the ability to use combat cards whose text restricts their use to vampires only. There are plenty of Disciplined combat cards whose text doesn't restrict their use to vampires. > If your saying that its because it gives him blood then, as the card > states, you give him blood. Also, if its because its a combat card then > people like Talaq, the Immortal are pretty much dumped on aren't they. > And as a rule, when a card is on a vampire you ignore who it has to be > played on (ie if Taste of Viate could only be played on a vampire). If > you didn't then switching a Femur of Toomler to Zack North would burn > it surely? Talaq specifically says to treat him as a vampire of capacity 3 for the purposes of playing those combat cards. --- Eric Pettersen pe...@cgl.ucsf.edu (NeXTmail capable)

On 18 Nov 1996 curt...@aol.com wrote: > Justin Grace <Jus...@bgrace.demon.co.uk> writes: > > >Now, why exactly would the Satyr be unable to play a Taste of Vitae? > > Simple. ToV says "This vampire gains all the blood lost by the opposing > vampire." If the Satyr plays it, there's no "this vampire", because the > Satyr isn't an vampire. Maybe the Satyr can play it (I'm not sure if > allies can play ToV - they would gain nothing, and it makes no sense, but > the cards doesn't say "only playable by a vampire", so I guess they > technically could.) but if the Satyr does, there's no legitimate target to > receive the blood from ToV. > > > Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) > > Good point but... Since the inclusion of this cryptic phrase - "If a card would give him blood give him life", there has been a whole slough of confusions. Related to this is the idea that allies can now have retainers. I recall not being able to find a card which gives 'blood' that does not refer to the 'vampire' receiving it. Therefore, I take the crypric phrase to mean that in such cases where blood woud be given to a vampire, give life to the ally. This is unsatisfactory though: Can I use a hunting ground to give Kherebutu life? Sermon of Caine? Heidelburg Castle? Why does Mr. Winthrop only work for Vampires but Faithful Servant works for 'minion's? If Zombies, acting as retainers for Scapelli, are in combat, do they not get their additional damage to deal out?

Malcolm McCallum <mcca...@pacificcoast.net> >On 18 Nov 1996 curt...@aol.com wrote: >>> Justin Grace <Jus...@bgrace.demon.co.uk> writes: > >> >Now, why exactly would the Satyr be unable to play a Taste of Vitae? > >> Simple. ToV says "This vampire gains all the blood lost by the opposing >> vampire." If the Satyr plays it, there's no "this vampire", because the >> Satyr isn't an vampire. Maybe the Satyr can play it (I'm not sure if >> allies can play ToV - they would gain nothing, and it makes no sense, but >> the cards doesn't say "only playable by a vampire", so I guess they >> technically could.) but if the Satyr does, there's no legitimate target to >> receive the blood from ToV. >Good point but... >Since the inclusion of this cryptic phrase - "If a card would give him >blood give him life", there has been a whole slough of confusions. Shouldn't be any confusion. Yes, if he could use ToV he'd get life - but he still can't benefit from the card. The card isn't going to give him any blood, so he doesn't get any life. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

Well, what cards are going to give him blood then. Theft of Vitae won't because if you read the card rules booklet a Steal Blood type action gives a vampire blood. It never refers to allies. You have to make adjustments to cards if you want to use them with expansion sets as and when they come out. James Coupe. (Different e-mail address again).

There is a rule which says that Theft of Vitae can only be played by vampires. Check the rule book under Special Combat Effects. No other cards would give him blood (not even Mercy for the Weak). So, what cards would give him blood then? Surely, you have to allow some card differences to be made even if they say things specifically. James Coupe.

Bishop Vesey's Grammar <vese...@rmplc.co.uk> writes: >Well, what cards are going to give him blood then. Theft of Vitae won't >because if you read the card rules booklet a Steal Blood type action >gives a vampire blood. It never refers to allies. You have to make >adjustments to cards if you want to use them with expansion sets as and >when they come out. He's just using the standard Ally-with-Skill template. That no cards exist in the named skill to give him blood is a moot point. Some cards exists in some skill to give a vampire blood, and such cards may be made for other skills in the future. And standardized templates are a GoodIdea(tm). -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Eschew http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Obfuscation Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

Bishop Vesey's Grammar <vese...@rmplc.co.uk> writes: >There is a rule which says that Theft of Vitae can only be played by >vampires. Check the rule book under Special Combat Effects. It doesn't say that it can "only" be played by vampires. It refers to the vampire playing the card - and this little ally plays cards "as if he were a vampire". So, there's no problem. He can play Theft of Vitae and steal blood (or life) just as if he were a vampire. [ quoted text not captured ]

L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote: : Bishop Vesey's Grammar <vese...@rmplc.co.uk> writes: : >There is a rule which says that Theft of Vitae can only be played by : >vampires. Check the rule book under Special Combat Effects. : : It doesn't say that it can "only" be played by vampires. : It refers to the vampire playing the card - and this little : ally plays cards "as if he were a vampire". : : So, there's no problem. He can play Theft of Vitae and steal : blood (or life) just as if he were a vampire. Which brings us back to him not being broken. An ally who you have to do 2 point of damage to in order to hurt him, in any given round, is not broken. Nor is an ally that can run away from fights at will but can't do anything else. Nor is an ally that can do aggravated damage but crumples like tissue paper when hit. Garry

Bishop Vesey's Grammar <vese...@rmplc.co.uk> wrote: > There is a rule which says that Theft of Vitae can only be played by > vampires. Check the rule book under Special Combat Effects. > > No other cards would give him blood (not even Mercy for the Weak). > > So, what cards would give him blood then? > > Surely, you have to allow some card differences to be made even if they > say things specifically. > > James Coupe. > For reference, here's the text of the card: Shadow Court Satyr (Changeling) 3 pool Gangrel Antitribu Ally Ally with 3 life. 1 hand damage, 1 bleed. When Shadow Court Satyr comes into play, you may put a combat card from your hand on him. During combat, Satyr may use the ability of that card as if that card had been played from your hand. If the card has a cost, he pays its cost in life to use its ability. If the card requires a Discipline, he may only use the basic ability of that card. If the ability would give him blood, give him life instead. No where in the text does it say he can play the combat card as if he were a vampire. Only "may use the ability of that card as if that card had been played from your hand". Are you saying that you can play Taste of Vitae from your hand for the SCS? I would say the card definitely needs errata if that's how it's supposed to be played. I mean, doesn't that imply that you can play Taste of Vitae for any ally? And if you can play Taste of Vitae for the SCS, you could of course play Amaranth -- now what would that do exactly? Would there be a bloodhunt? Would the SCS gain a discipline -- and what is the SCS's capacity? You see how much of a problem playing the SCS the way you suggest is? As L. Scott Johnson says, even if there are currently no cards that would give SCS blood, it doesn't mean there won't be in the future. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Samuel K Handelman wrote: > Which brings us back to him not being broken. An ally who you > have to do 2 point of damage to in order to hurt him, in any given round, > is not broken. > Nor is an ally that can run away from fights at will but can't do > anything else. Nor is an ally that can do aggravated damage but crumples > like tissue paper when hit. Personally, I really like the Shadow Court Satyr. Unfortunately, the Satyr can be combined with equipment to supplement his one combat card. These combinations are more or less permanent, since the combat card is reusable, like the equipment. (Theft of Vitae+IR Goggles, Burst of Sunlight+IR Goggles, Pulled Fangs+Flak Jacket, Earth Meld+Laptop Computer.) If the combat card is a limit-shoving one anyway, like Earth Meld or Burst of Sunlight, the Satyr is also able to push the limits of power in Jyhad. The Satyr is not broken on his own...it is only when there are combat cards which are slightly too powerful in combination that the Satyr becomes a problem. The Satyr can be killed-it just requires an expenditure of resources that most people would rather use on a vampire. I waste a Fast Reactions or an Immortal Grapple to kill an Earth Melded Satyr? If the Satyr has a Laptop... -Nathan Harada

Nathan Harada (i...@hula.net) wrote: : >Samuel K Handelman wrote: : > Which brings us back to him not being broken. An ally who you : > have to do 2 point of damage to in order to hurt him, in any given round, : > is not broken. : > Nor is an ally that can run away from fights at will but can't do : > anything else. Nor is an ally that can do aggravated damage but crumples : > like tissue paper when hit. : Personally, I really like the Shadow Court Satyr. Unfortunately, : the Satyr can be combined with equipment to supplement his one combat : card. These combinations are more or less permanent, since the combat : card is reusable, like the equipment. (Theft of Vitae+IR Goggles, Burst : of Sunlight+IR Goggles, Pulled Fangs+Flak Jacket, Earth Meld+Laptop : Computer.) Okay, let's look at all of these- +IR Goggles - you're going to a lot of trouble to get a little improvement on your outcast mage. The Burst + Goggles satyr is probably a little better than an outcast mage, but requires a three card combination and isn't that much better, and can't bleed.... Pulled Fangs + Flak Jacket - this is different from a nephandus how? I know how, it doesn't work at range, and can't bleed. Hardly broken. Earth Meld + 'puter - just like a vampire if you have lots of earth melds in your deck, only he can't call votes or rescue people from torpor and recover if someone does manage to get in a fight with him. Stop me now. : If the combat card is a limit-shoving one anyway, like Earth : Meld or Burst of Sunlight, the Satyr is also able to push the limits : of power in Jyhad. The Satyr is not broken on his own...it is only : when there are combat cards which are slightly too powerful in : combination that the Satyr becomes a problem. The Satyr can be : killed-it just requires an expenditure of resources that most people : would rather use on a vampire. I waste a Fast Reactions or an : Immortal Grapple to kill an Earth Melded Satyr? If the Satyr has a : Laptop... That's okay. Not broken at all. Garry

In article <582cbl$8...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>, shan...@cats.ucsc.edu (Samuel K Handelman) wrote: > Nathan Harada (i...@hula.net) wrote: > : Personally, I really like the Shadow Court Satyr. Unfortunately, > : the Satyr can be combined with equipment to supplement his one combat > : card. These combinations are more or less permanent, since the combat > : card is reusable, like the equipment. (Theft of Vitae+IR Goggles, Burst > : of Sunlight+IR Goggles, Pulled Fangs+Flak Jacket, Earth Meld+Laptop > : Computer.) > > Okay, let's look at all of these- [...] > Pulled Fangs + Flak Jacket - this is different from a nephandus > how? I know how, it doesn't work at range, and can't bleed. Hardly broken. This leads to an interesting situation: If the combat card on the satyr says to put it on a vampire/minion when played, can the satyr use it again later? Do you just put a marker on the satyr to indicate the card that used to be on him? Jon? -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

On 3 Dec 1996 23:16:05 GMT, shan...@cats.ucsc.edu (Samuel K Handelman) wrote: >Nathan Harada (i...@hula.net) wrote: >: >Samuel K Handelman wrote: >: Personally, I really like the Shadow Court Satyr. Unfortunately, >: the Satyr can be combined with equipment to supplement his one combat >: card. These combinations are more or less permanent, since the combat >: card is reusable, like the equipment. (Theft of Vitae+IR Goggles, Burst >: of Sunlight+IR Goggles, Pulled Fangs+Flak Jacket, Earth Meld+Laptop >: Computer.) > > Okay, let's look at all of these- > +IR Goggles - you're going to a lot of trouble to get a little >improvement on your outcast mage. The Burst + Goggles satyr is probably a >little better than an outcast mage, but requires a three card combination >and isn't that much better, and can't bleed.... Huh? Have you seen a spoiler? That's a 1 bleed, 1 hand damage, 3 life ally. It can bleed. What it is is a much more flexible order of Hermes Cabal which costs less and isn't unique. And that's pretty nasty. > Pulled Fangs + Flak Jacket - this is different from a nephandus >how? I know how, it doesn't work at range, and can't bleed. Hardly broken. Um. Okay, run this past you again. The pulled fangs is _permanent_. Nephandus mage does not do agravated damage and do all kinds of unpleasant things to a vampire if it does more damage at close range. Of course, just on a rules basis, one wonders what happens when the Satyr uses a card which says "Place this card on the opposing vampire"..... > Earth Meld + 'puter - just like a vampire if you have lots of >earth melds in your deck, only he can't call votes or rescue people from >torpor and recover if someone does manage to get in a fight with him. >Stop me now. Oh, I will. Just like a vampire, except that the earth meld used is not a transient resource in your hand. The only way to get this guy in combat and have any hope of hurting him is through any of 3 cards: Dog Pack, Immortal Grapple, and Fast Reaction. That's all, folks. Rather ugly, If I may say so myself. Broken? Depends on your definition, but any card which is so flexible, so powerful in combinations which it itself enables, and is cheap as well as non-unique, is too good. >: If the combat card is a limit-shoving one anyway, like Earth >: Meld or Burst of Sunlight, the Satyr is also able to push the limits >: of power in Jyhad. The Satyr is not broken on his own...it is only >: when there are combat cards which are slightly too powerful in >: combination that the Satyr becomes a problem. The Satyr can be >: killed-it just requires an expenditure of resources that most people >: would rather use on a vampire. I waste a Fast Reactions or an >: Immortal Grapple to kill an Earth Melded Satyr? If the Satyr has a >: Laptop... > > That's okay. Not broken at all. Definitions, Definitions. Want to see my Satyr Deck? Coming soon to a tournament near you... Use it in conjunction with Gangrel tap/bleed/form of mist, and things get ugly fast. (And they said that Shadow Court Satyr wasn't broken. Poor pathetic fools...) Alec Chang