A methuselah begins her turn by untapping. She does not play a
master. She attempts to play Parity Shift with a Prince. After a
quick pool check by everyone, it is determined there is no legal
target. The methuselah then pulls the Parity Shift back to her hand
(no replacement card had been drawn yet) and proceeds to play a Minion
Tap on the Prince. Is this legal?
A methuselah is in her minion phase and uses her Prince to play the
action card, Third Tradition: Progeny. No one reads the card text out
loud or otherwise bats an eyelash. One blood is moved from the Prince
to the Progeny. The methuselah proceeds to hunt with another minion.
During said hunt, a cross table player mentions the fact that a
discipline card could have been placed on the Progeny. Is the
methuselah allowed to reverse her turn and place a discipline card on
the Progeny?
Vegas gNat
> A methuselah begins her turn by untapping. She does not play a
> master. She attempts to play Parity Shift with a Prince. After a
> quick pool check by everyone, it is determined there is no legal
> target. The methuselah then pulls the Parity Shift back to her hand
> (no replacement card had been drawn yet) and proceeds to play a Minion
> Tap on the Prince. Is this legal?
IANLSJ - but no, this is not legal. The act of attempting to play the
Parity Shift is the same as declaration that the player has no Master
Phase action, or does not wish to use one. Even though game state has
not been altered, playing a Master Card is not mandatory, and thus
choosing to not play one is the same as forgetting to play one.
> A methuselah is in her minion phase and uses her Prince to play the
> action card, Third Tradition: Progeny. No one reads the card text out
> loud or otherwise bats an eyelash. One blood is moved from the Prince
> to the Progeny. The methuselah proceeds to hunt with another minion.
> During said hunt, a cross table player mentions the fact that a
> discipline card could have been placed on the Progeny. Is the
> methuselah allowed to reverse her turn and place a discipline card on
> the Progeny?
Again, IANLSJ, but the wording of 3rd Trad is a little bit on the
confusing side.
Third Tradition: Progeny, The, Action, 1 blood, Prince or Justicar
Requires ready Prince or Justicar. +1 stealth action. Put this card in
play; it becomes a 1 capacity vampire. Go through your library, ash
heap, or hand to find one Discipline card for this card. Move up to 2
blood from the acting vampire to this card. This vampire is not
considered unique, cannot act the turn it is created, and is the same
clan as the acting vampire.
the wording here seems to suggest that the search is mandatory,
however as you do not have to search successfully, it seems a little
bit counter intuitive, and putting a discipline card on the progeny is
up to the acting methusela. As such, again forgetting to put a
discipline card on the progeny is the same as choosing not to. And as
other actions have been taken after the progeny was put into play, it
is now too late to do the search.
--> J
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com
[ quoted text not captured ]
At the first case, no he has already passed his master phase and moved
to minion phase clearly by attempting to play the shift.
At second case also no (I hope he also remembered to pay for the
progeny action in addition to moving blood?) as he has already moved
to next action, even though in this case, if nobody on the table
objects to it, I would let him search it as that case likely was just
simply forgetting.
On 3 apr, 06:18, "J" <grai...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > A methuselah begins her turn by untapping. She does not play a
> > master. She attempts to play Parity Shift with a Prince. After a
> > quick pool check by everyone, it is determined there is no legal
> > target. The methuselah then pulls the Parity Shift back to her hand
> > (no replacement card had been drawn yet) and proceeds to play a Minion
> > Tap on the Prince. Is this legal?
>
> IANLSJ - but no, this is not legal. The act of attempting to play the
> Parity Shift is the same as declaration that the player has no Master
> Phase action, or does not wish to use one. Even though game state has
> not been altered, playing a Master Card is not mandatory, and thus
> choosing to not play one is the same as forgetting to play one.
Playing the Parity Shift (possible or not) implicitly means you end
your master phase. That's a definate decision. So, I'd say, no, this
is not legal.
> > A methuselah is in her minion phase and uses her Prince to play the[ quoted text not captured ]
I would rule differently.
>From the VEKN Judges' Guide on "Procedural Error -
Misrepresentation":
-----------
Definition:
A player is considered to have committed this infraction when he or
she
unintentionally misplayed a card or a game rule.
Philosophy:
This penalty assumes an unintentional action on behalf of the player.
If the judge believes the misrepresentation was intentional, see
section 160 - Cheating. When the error is noticed and no significant
game actions have
taken place, the error should be corrected. If any significant game
actions have taken place (such as moving to the next player's turn) it
may be better to leave the game undisturbed or impose some other game
sanction (loss of a pool, for instance) since players have made play
decisions based on the present state of the game. It is important that
the player committing the infraction receive no benefit in the game
for doing so.
Penalty:
Caution.
-----------
The misplaying of third tradition was not intentional. The search is
mandatory. Backtrack and search for a discipline card, unless this
gives an unfair advantage to the person misplaying third tradition.
This doesn't seem the case.
Backtracking for mandatory things (say, counters on web of knives
recruits, making a choice for leandro, etc.) is reccommended.
Forgetting to search is not finding no card.
Cheers,
Bram
In message <1175586528.2...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Bram
Vink <jja....@hccnet.nl> writes:
>The misplaying of third tradition was not intentional. The search is
>mandatory.
No it isn't.
<http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=Cardlist_t#Third_Traditio
n_Progeny>
You may go through your library (shuffle afterward), ash heap or
hand to find a Discipline card for this vampire.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
On 3 apr, 09:59, James Coupe <j...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <1175586528.246939.209...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Bram>
> Vink <jja.v...@hccnet.nl> writes:
> >The misplaying of third tradition was not intentional. The search is
> >mandatory.
>
> No it isn't.
>
> <http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=Cardlist_t#Third_Traditio
> n_Progeny>
>
> You may go through your library (shuffle afterward), ash heap or
> hand to find a Discipline card for this vampire.
>
> --
> James Coupe
> PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
> EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
> 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Ok sure, then forgetting to may be construed as choosing not to.
cheers,
B
tigernat1 wrote:
> A methuselah begins her turn by untapping. She does not play a
> master. She attempts to play Parity Shift with a Prince. After a
> quick pool check by everyone, it is determined there is no legal
> target. The methuselah then pulls the Parity Shift back to her hand
> (no replacement card had been drawn yet) and proceeds to play a Minion
> Tap on the Prince. Is this legal?
Playing the Parity Shift is not legal.
So you have to rewind.
The question seems to be: how far do you rewind?
Clearly, you rewind at least to the point of the announcing of the Parity Shift
action (untap the acting minion, restore the hand and library, shuffle the library).
That is as far as you rewind.
UNLESS
Unless game state was not correctly represented (someone's pool total appeared
smaller than it was because of stray counters lingering too close to the bank,
for example). If the acting Methuselah had counted pool totals at or prior to
her master phase as part of his or her determination to play or not to play
Minion Tap, and game state had indicated that the future Parity Shift was legal,
then rewind to that point (and correct game state), and allow Minion Tap (or
whatever).
> A methuselah is in her minion phase and uses her Prince to play the
> action card, Third Tradition: Progeny. No one reads the card text out
> loud or otherwise bats an eyelash. One blood is moved from the Prince
> to the Progeny. The methuselah proceeds to hunt with another minion.
> During said hunt, a cross table player mentions the fact that a
> discipline card could have been placed on the Progeny. Is the
> methuselah allowed to reverse her turn and place a discipline card on
> the Progeny?
No.