To LSJ: Withdrawing and Brinksmanship

I've a tournament on 26/08 and I need "some" clarifications about withdrawing and Brinksmanship. Rulebook: If you have exhausted your library and begin your turn with less than a full hand, you have the option of withdrawing from the game. To exercise this option, you must announce your intent to withdraw during your untap phase. For the withdrawal to succeed, you must meet the following conditions: · None of your minions enter combat until your next untap phase. · None of your minions lose (or spend) any blood until your next untap phase. · You do not lose (or spend) any pool until your next untap phase. If on your next untap phase you have met these conditions, then you successfully withdraw. The withdrawal fails if you lose a single pool or blood, even if you gain enough to make up for the loss. _______________________________________________________________________ Suppose that player A puts Brinksmanship in play and B is his prey and start his turn with less than a full hand and an empty library. 1° Question: Is B ousted suddenly when he/she loses/spends his first pool/blood or starts a combat involving his minions? 2° Question: Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass Player A: In his turn steals a B's minion, but making no damage to B (Hostile Takehover/Far mastery). What happen's? 3° Question: Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass Player A: Burns/Remove from play a B's minion (Golconda/Millicent) without making a loss of blood/pool. What happen's? 4° Question: Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass Player A: Sends in torpor a B's minion (Baltimora's Purge) without making a loss of blood/pool. What happen's? 5° Question: Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass Player A: In his turn steals a B's minion via Mind Rape and steals the blood with Hildelberg castle, but making no other loss of blood/pool to B. What happen's? 6° Question: Player A: Full Hand - Brinksmanship in play - Put Vampiric Disease on a B's minion with 2 or more blood. What happen's? 7° Question: Player A: Full Hand - Brinksmanship in play - Put Society of Leopold on a B's minion with 2 or more blood. What happen's? Thanks a lot for your time, Enrico

cno...@yahoo.com wrote: > I've a tournament on 26/08 and I need "some" clarifications about > withdrawing and Brinksmanship. > > Rulebook: If you have exhausted your library and begin your turn with > less than a full hand, you have the option of withdrawing from the > game. To exercise this option, you must announce your intent to > withdraw during your untap phase. For the withdrawal to succeed, you > must meet the following conditions: > · None of your minions enter combat until your next untap phase. > · None of your minions lose (or spend) any blood until your next > untap phase. > · You do not lose (or spend) any pool until your next untap phase. > If on your next untap phase you have met these conditions, then you > successfully withdraw. The withdrawal fails if you lose a single pool > or blood, even if you gain enough to make up for the loss. > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Suppose that player A puts Brinksmanship in play and B is his prey and > start his turn with less than a full hand and an empty library. > > 1° Question: Is B ousted suddenly when he/she loses/spends his first > pool/blood or starts a combat involving his minions? IANALSJ, but... No. The check if a withdrawal attempt was successful or not happens during the next untap phase after the announcement of the attempt. Card text on Brinkmanship does nothing to change that - in fact, it explicitly states that the check is done then. > 2° Question: > Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to > withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass > Player A: In his turn steals a B's minion, but making no damage to B > (Hostile Takehover/Far mastery). What happen's? None of the conditions for a succesful withdraw was violated. The withdraw is successful. > 3° Question: > Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to > withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass > Player A: Burns/Remove from play a B's minion (Golconda/Millicent) > without making a loss of blood/pool. What happen's? None of the conditions for a succesful withdraw was violated. The withdraw is successful. I confess: I am not too sure about this one, because the burned minion _does_ "lose" all remaining blood on him. But if that would count for fulfillment of this condition, then burning a vampire _without_ blood left on him would not, and I'd hate life to be that complicated... :-) > 4° Question: > Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to > withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass > Player A: Sends in torpor a B's minion (Baltimora's Purge) without > making a loss of blood/pool. What happen's? None of the conditions for a succesful withdraw was violated. The withdraw is successful. > 5° Question: > Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to > withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass > Player A: In his turn steals a B's minion via Mind Rape and steals > the blood with Hildelberg castle, but making no other loss of > blood/pool to B. What happen's? The temporary control effect from Mind Rape end at A's turn. The minion is then returned to B. In B's untap phase, the conditions for withdraw are checked, and we find that a minion has lost blood. The withdraw is not successful. Due to Brinkmanship being in play, B is ousted. > 6° Question: > Player A: Full Hand - Brinksmanship in play - Put Vampiric Disease on > a B's minion with 2 or more blood. > What happen's? Good question. The withdrawal rule says "If on your next untap phase you have met these conditions,..." The point here is: Does "on" mean "right at the start" of the untap phase, or is the check some effect that happens "in" the untap phase and therefore can be ordered by the acting Methuselah as she wishes? Card text from Vampiric Disease says "When an afflicted vampire untaps, he or she burns a blood...". Untapping, according to the rules, must happen at the start of the untap phase. So, the vampire burns a blood. > > 7° Question: > Player A: Full Hand - Brinksmanship in play - Put Society of Leopold > on a B's minion with 2 or more blood. > What happen's? Good question, depending on the same answer as the question above. Card text from Society of Leopold says "During his or her controller`s untap phase, the vampire with this card either burns 1 blood or is burned (the controller`s choice)". This effect can be ordered to happen at some point in time before or after other effects in the untap phase. Regards, Hardy Range

Hardy Range skrev: > Good question. The withdrawal rule says "If on your next untap phase > you have met these conditions,..." > The point here is: Does "on" mean "right at the start" of the untap > phase, or is the check some effect that happens "in" the untap phase > and therefore can be ordered by the acting Methuselah as she wishes? > > Card text from Vampiric Disease says "When an afflicted vampire untaps, > he or she burns a blood...". > Untapping, according to the rules, must happen at the start of the > untap phase. So, the vampire burns a blood. And the first thing that happens is the untap of cards, so, ousted. > >> 7° Question: >> Player A: Full Hand - Brinksmanship in play - Put Society of Leopold >> on a B's minion with 2 or more blood. >> What happen's? > > Good question, depending on the same answer as the question above. > > Card text from Society of Leopold says "During his or her controller`s > untap phase, the vampire with this card either burns 1 blood or is > burned (the controller`s choice)". This effect can be ordered to happen > at some point in time before or after other effects in the untap phase. > Acting players order all effects other than untapping during his/her untap phase as he/she sees fit. Thus the player may chose (within scope of rules for playing to win) to survive or be ousted. Sten During -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Hardy Range wrote: > cno...@yahoo.com wrote: > > Suppose that player A puts Brinksmanship in play and B is his prey and > > start his turn with less than a full hand and an empty library. > > > > 1° Question: Is B ousted suddenly when he/she loses/spends his first > > pool/blood or starts a combat involving his minions? > > No. > The check if a withdrawal attempt was successful or not happens during > the next untap phase after the announcement of the attempt. Card text > on Brinkmanship does nothing to change that - in fact, it explicitly > states that the check is done then. Correct. > > 2° Question: > > Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to > > withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass > > Player A: In his turn steals a B's minion, but making no damage to B > > (Hostile Takehover/Far mastery). What happen's? > > None of the conditions for a succesful withdraw was violated. > The withdraw is successful. Correct. > > 3° Question: > > Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to > > withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass > > Player A: Burns/Remove from play a B's minion (Golconda/Millicent) > > without making a loss of blood/pool. What happen's? > > None of the conditions for a succesful withdraw was violated. > The withdraw is successful. > > I confess: I am not too sure about this one, because the burned minion > _does_ "lose" all remaining blood on him. But if that would count for > fulfillment of this condition, then burning a vampire _without_ blood > left on him would not, and I'd hate life to be that complicated... :-) Correct. Only in the case of diablerizing a vampire would the withdrawal fail (and then only if the victim had blood to lose to the diablerist before being burned). http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/bd34943e0ef7843f > > 4° Question: > > Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to > > withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass > > Player A: Sends in torpor a B's minion (Baltimora's Purge) without > > making a loss of blood/pool. What happen's? > > None of the conditions for a succesful withdraw was violated. > The withdraw is successful. Correct. > > 5° Question: > > Player B: Less than Full hand at the start of his turn - Tries to > > withdraw - Makes his turn - Pass > > Player A: In his turn steals a B's minion via Mind Rape and steals > > the blood with Hildelberg castle, but making no other loss of > > blood/pool to B. What happen's? > > The temporary control effect from Mind Rape end at A's turn. The minion > is then returned to B. In B's untap phase, the conditions for withdraw > are checked, and we find that a minion has lost blood. > The withdraw is not successful. > Due to Brinkmanship being in play, B is ousted. No. No minion under the control of the withdrawer lost blood. When the vampire lost blood, he was not the withdrawer's vampire. Similarly, if you announce your intention to withdraw, then use Ezekiel with a Dominion to bleed your prey who blocks with a Matata with 2 blood. Matata burns 1 blood for the block attempt. The block succeeds, and Ezekiel plays Venenation, taking control of Matata (with no combat). On your untap phase, your withdrawal succeeds, since none of "your" minions lost blood, even though Matata has lost blood -- the loss was by your prey's Matata. > > 6° Question: > > Player A: Full Hand - Brinksmanship in play - Put Vampiric Disease on > > a B's minion with 2 or more blood. > > What happen's? > > Good question. The withdrawal rule says "If on your next untap phase > you have met these conditions,..." > The point here is: Does "on" mean "right at the start" of the untap > phase, or is the check some effect that happens "in" the untap phase > and therefore can be ordered by the acting Methuselah as she wishes? It happens upon reaching the untap phase. That bit hasn't changed. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/802584a2e37b3acf http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.announce/msg/0634551276a340e8 > > 7° Question: > > Player A: Full Hand - Brinksmanship in play - Put Society of Leopold > > on a B's minion with 2 or more blood. > > What happen's? > > Good question, depending on the same answer as the question above. > > Card text from Society of Leopold says "During his or her controller`s > untap phase, the vampire with this card either burns 1 blood or is > burned (the controller`s choice)". This effect can be ordered to happen > at some point in time before or after other effects in the untap phase. Withdrawal succeeds.

Thanks for your time: I'll try to win a tournament with an Harbringer discard deck °o° and I don't want to win (if I'd win, of course) with dirty trick or by misunderstanding the rules. Enrico LSJ ha scritto: [ quoted text not captured ]

And loose Pool/blood counter on minions in the uncontrolled region? Like Dobrescu Ability for example, or Cairo Int'l Airport. LSJ ha scritto:

cno...@yahoo.com wrote: > And loose Pool/blood counter on minions in the uncontrolled region? > Like Dobrescu Ability for example, or Cairo Int'l Airport. They are not "your minions", so it doesn't matter.

LSJ wrote: > > Similarly, if you announce your intention to withdraw, then use Ezekiel > with a Dominion to bleed your prey who blocks with a Matata with 2 > blood. Matata burns 1 blood for the block attempt. The block succeeds, > and Ezekiel plays Venenation, taking control of Matata (with no > combat). > Sure, assuming that matata had 8 other corruption counters on him already...and no other effect effecting his capacity...as venenation triggers based on capacity, not blood. G