Brujah Antitribu Newsletter - Volume 2 Issue 5

BRUJAH ANTITRIBU NEWSLETTER Volume 2, Issue 5 March 2001 Author: Wes ========================================================== TABLE OF CONTENTS Introduction and News New Bloodlines - Descriptions New Disciplines - Descriptions Vampire Analysis - Bronwen Sign Off ========================================================== INTRODUCTION AND NEWS This just in from Stephen Wieck from White Wolf: ["Bloodlines" will follow Final Nights and become the third expansion from White Wolf for Vampire: The Eternal Struggle. Bloodlines will contain over 120 new cards, detailing the Ahrimanes, Baali, Blood Brothers, Daughters of Cacophony, Gargoyles, Harbingers of Skulls, Kiasyd, Nagaraja, Salubri, Samedi, and True Brujah along with each faction's unique vampiric powers. Booster packs only. December 2001 release.] Based on this news, I've decided to spend the majority of this newsletter discussing the new bloodlines and what this entails for the game. Many of the people who play Jyhad/V:tES do NOT play the role-playing game that it is based on and I thought they might appreciate a rundown of what each bloodline is about and what special disciplines they possess. ========================================================== NEW BLOODLINES - DESCRIPTIONS Note that some of these bloodlines have undergone significant changes from 2nd edition to the revised 3rd edition of Vampire: the Masquerade. This is relevant because there is a precedent with the Ventrue Antitribu. The !Ventrue originally had the discipline spread of Auspex, Dominate and Fortitude (as well as being mostly gutter-punks) to their revised ret-con that has the traditional Ventrue discipline spread. Also, Malkavians in 3rd edition now have access to Dementation rather than (sometimes as well as) Dominate as a clan discipline. Confused yet? My point is that it is possible that either old or new versions of the bloodline could be used, though smart money would be on the 3rd edition revisions. I don't have access to ALL of the books that detail the older versions, so some of this information might be slightly outdated or inaccurate. I've done some major Google searches to fill in gaps where necessary. Ahrimanes ----------- Founded by Muricia, a Gangrel Antitribu, this all-female bloodline remains as reclsuive as its founder. Members are not embraced into the bloodline but inducted via a ritual from other clans, usually the Country Gangrel. They are nominally Sabbat but rarely interact with the sect. They have not been contacted in years and there have been rumours of their destructionl. As a result of the ritual, their vitae becomes so weak that they are unable to sire childer or create blood bonds. Ahrimanes are shamans and mystics, focusing on their connection to animals, spirits and their own inner beast. Disciplines: Animalism + Presence + [Spiritus] Baali ----- This ancient and abhorrent bloodline has plagued the other clans since its inception. Thought to be an evil offshoot of the lost Salubri clan, they were prominent antagonists to other clans throughout the Dark Ages but are now believed to be extinct. They are primarily interested in demon-worship and corruption. It is known that Saulot, the progenitor of the Salubri clan made it a personal mission to rid the world of the Baali blight; whether this was a noble cause or as an attempt to correct a mistake of his own making is debatable. Disciplines: Obfuscate + Presence + [Daimonion] Blood Brothers ---------------- A modern experiment of the Tzimisce, this Sabbat bloodline is rare but feared by those who have had the misfortune of meeting them. They are mystically bonded to each other and are able to exchange limbs, take wounds meant for each other and combine to form monstrous composite creatures. A curious thing about the Blood Brothers is that they are crafted by the Tzimisce to look identical; usually they have the appearance of a gang of skinheads. This is an appropriate image as they are generally used by their masters as shock troops. Because of their unique connection to each other, they are vicious in combat, able to effectively work as a hive-mind. Disciplines: Potence + Fortitude + [Sanguinus] Daughters of Cacophany ------------------------- Often mistaken for Toreadors, members of this bloodline are known for their exquisite singing voices. They are easily distracted and often seem... distant. Though they have no allegiance to the Camarilla or the Sabbat, they tend to reside in Camarilla cities, probably because it is safer for them. Strangely, this bloodline appeared out of nowhere in the 1700s. Though they do seem to share the stage with the Toreador, those who have been victims of the madness induced by their singing claim that they may be a bloodline of the Malkavian clan. The Sirens are cursed with constant maddening music in their minds distracting them from anything but the songs in their heads. Disciplines: Fortitude + Presence + [Melpominee] Gargoyles ---------- Originally a cruel experiment of the nascent Tremere clan, these winged monstrosities are now free from slavery... mostly. They are mentally slow but physically powerful. Many Gargoyles hire themselves out as mercenaries, often in the role of assassins or bodyguards. In the Dark Ages, the Tremere captured hostile Nosferatu and Gangrel and used them with rituals to create this bloodline. Many elder members of these clans still resent the Tremere for this crime, though they are forced to work together in the Camarilla. Most Gargoyles are members of the Camarilla; the pay is much better after all... there are still members of the bloodline that chose to side with the Sabbat, all the better to get back at their former masters. Disciplines: Fortitude + Potence + [Flight] + [Visceratika] (Note: In some WW publications, Flight is a subset of Visceratika.) Harbingers of Skulls -------------------- Possibly the Cappadocian clan returned from the grave, this hideous bloodline recently appeared on the scene, apparently right from the Underworld. They are ancient, powerful and REALLY pissed off at the Giovanni clan for some reason. They have joined the Sabbat but are so rare that most shovel-heads have never heard of them. They appear as emaciated corpses and often wear masks to hide their bare skulls. Although Sabbat, they are so powerful that most elder Sabbat do not insist that they participate in sect rites; the Lazarenes do whatever it is they do without prying Cardinals or Archbishops. Considering the state of their flesh, most Sabbat are happy to avoid sharing the vaulderie with these monsters. Disciplines: Auspex + Fortitude + Necromancy Kiasyd ------- This strange bloodline is derived from the Lasombra and seem to share some connection with the Fae. These recluses are known for their enigmatic beauty and are respected for their vast arcane knowledge. The Weirdlings are almost exclusively members of the Sabbat but like the other Sabbat bloodlines they rarely participate in sect rites. Possibly because of their fae heritage, Kiasyd have very strange features. Often standing over seven feet tall, with a blue sheen to their skin and deep black eyes, they rarely pass for human. Disciplines: Obtenebration + Dominate + [Mytherceria] (Note: Formerly Necromancy was a clan discipline) Nagaraja ---------- Unlike most vampires, this bloodline must survive by eating the flesh of their victims. So rare that most vampires would not recognize the name, this cabal of sorcerer-vampires guard their secrets closely. Some believe that the cabal attempted to follow the success of the Tremere's transformation from mages to vampires, but the Flesh Eaters aren't talking. Rare in the extreme, and despised where they are known, this bloodline understandably keeps a low profile. Disciplines: Auspex + Dominate + Necromancy (Note: They originally possessed a discipline called Nihilistics which has since been incorporated into canon as a distinct 'path' of Necromancy) Salubri ------- Almost extinct, this bloodline has fallen from grace. They were one of the original thirteen clans but when their founder Saulot was diablerized by the mage known as Tremere, they were hunted almost to extinction. Tremere propaganda ensures that these gentle healers are universally regarded as evil incarnate. Few vampires are willing to look past this false image to the nobility, wisdom and serenity that they inevitably possess. Fewer still wish to defy the wishes of the powerful Tremere clan. Salubri are unique in that they possess a third eye, in the centre of their forehead which glows when they use their signature discipline. Unfortunately, this is also a dead giveaway for hunters and the Tremere who constantly hunt them down. Disciplines: Auspex + Fortitude + [Obeah/Valeren] (Note: Obeah is the main discipline, which I believe most likely to appear in the expansion. Valeren is the 'reverse-image' of Obeah and practiced by the Salubri Antitribu who are members of the Sabbat. It could possibly be included but I doubt it.) Samedi -------- Hideous zombies, these vampires are shunned by most other clans. Not only do they appear to be emaciated corpses (and another surviving offshoot of the Cappadocians?) but they are obnoxious enough to rub your face in it. Many seem to have a bizarre sense of gallows humour; insisting on shaking hands to close deals; an unpleasant experience for the other party to say the least. They often work as assassins; their unique power is very effective for them in this role. Disciplines: Fortitude + Obfuscate + [Thanatosis] (Note: In early publications they possessed Necromancy, Obfuscate and Thanatosis.) True Brujah ------------ Unknown to the majority of Kindred, the Brujah clan are not the collective childer of the antedilluvean founder. They are actually descendants of a vampire named Troile who diablerized the founder, his/her sire. The True Brujah descend from the actual founder and are secretly plotting the destruction of their traitorous cousins. Although they are committed to this goal, the members of this clan share a common weaknes; complete emotional detachment. Almost the opposite of the Brujah, the 'Trujah' are incapable of understanding humanity as anything other than a subject of study. They are scholars sans peer, dedicated to unearthing secrets and artefacts to help them in their ultimate goal. Disciplines: Potence + Presence + [Temporis] (Note: this discipline has been completely altered from its original twink-ridden form. IMHO it's still 'broken' in the RPG but could make for some interesting cards/abilities in V:tES) ========================================================== NEW DISCIPLINES - DESCRIPTIONS Here I will briefly describe the new disciplines and give my own commentary on their possible application to V:tES. Daimonion ---------- Primarily associated with manipulating the fears and weaknesses of their victims or summoning hell-fire to torture them with, this discipline is antagonistic to say the least. I think its main application could be for summoning allies, nasty NASTY allies. The ability to launch hell-fire at vampires could definitely be useful in combat, something similar to 'Breath of the Dragon'. The fear/weakness manipulation angle could be applied to stealth and intercept quite easily. Melpominee ------------ This power is centred around the voice of the vampire. It can be used to mystically throw a voice (yawn) or to communicate with those the vampire knows. At lower levels it is fairly weak but masters of Melpominee learn how to damage others with their voice (think Banshee from the X-Men). As far as V:tES applications, I'm not sure... I find this discipline almost as boring as the bloodline that uses it. I can see some sort of stealth/intercept denial, similar to Chimerstry and the obvious combat applications. Not much potential that I can see. Mytherceria ------------ A very strange discipline, Mytherceria uses riddles and mental manipulation to confuse and dazzle. It can remove the aura of an object or person (cancel Auspex effects?), steal the memories of others and add protective wards to objects or places. The ultimate toolbox discipline, the potential for V:tES applications are promising. Protection of locations springs to mind, as well as some intriguing action modifiers Obeah ------- Of all the new disciplines, this one strikes me as having the most potential. Primarily a healing art, it allows the Salubri to heal wounds or even derangements (Malkav and Saulot were good friends... you can see why). Neutral Guard, the level three ability in the RPG gives the vampire an ability to keep opponents at a distance. Obviously, defensive combat applications spring to mind. How about this? The vampire plays a combat card that allows him to ignore all range strikes as long as he can keep range at long and not strike back (Salubri are generally pacifists). Sanguinus ---------- Another discipline brimming with potential for V:tES. This discipline allows the Blood Brothers to share perceptions, coordinate attacks and even share limbs. I can see cards similar to Hidden Lurker enabling several BB's to rush an opponent at the same time. Another neat idea would be to enable one vampire with sanguinus to take damage intended for another. All Sanguinus powers should rely on some kind of teamwork. Whether two distinct vampires with Sanguinus OR one vampire card that represents a pack of Blood Brothers. Since they NEVER work alone, this could work. Spiritus -------- This mystical connection to animal spirits allows the Ahrimanes to effectively duplicate the abilities of animals to various effect. A wolf-spirit could be invoked for 'wolf claws'... a stag-spirit for speed and endurance. An interesting application might be to allow the vampire to play Protean, Celerity or Fortitude cards as if they possessed the inferior ability but at a cost of extra blood. Well, maybe not... but there may be possibilities with this discipline. Temporis --------- A Japanese method of battering and frying seafood. Oops, wrong reference book. Temporis is the signature discipline of the 'Trujah' and the bane of storytellers everywhere. It involves minor time-travel and alteration of temporal perceptions. It does have some potential for V:tES I think, but I'm already afraid of any player that would want to play with it. Effects similar to 'Change of Target' or 'Psyche!' would seem pretty appropriate. An action that causes the game to be canceled and rescheduled for a week later would NOT be cool. Thanatosis ----------- This discipline is NASTY. The Samedi use their control of putrefaction and decay to terrorize and immobilize their opponents. Limbs can be made useless (Disarm?) or victims can simply be 'rotted' away at the vampire's touch. Combat cards are the most obvious application here... I would think similar to Vicissitude's cards like Bonecrarft or Fleshcraft but a lot more dangerous. This discipline also gives the vampire the ability to become a pile of ashes... Strike: Combat Ends would be the obvious analog for this. Visceratika + Flight ------------------- The Gargoyles have two signature disciplines. Flight is pretty straightforward; Gargoyles possess the ability to fly. Visceratika gives the Gargoyle the ability to blend in with its surroundings, grants awareness of an area it protects or the ability to sink safely into stone. These could be represented with stealth, intercept and Strike: Combat Ends respectively. I see Gargoyles more as blocking combat-monkeys than as rushers. The ability to protect a location or another vampire would fit in well with their theme I think. ===================================================================== VAMPIRE ANALYSIS - BRONWEN Name: Bronwen Clan: Brujah Antitribu Capacity: 10 CEL POT PRE dom obt Sabbat Priscus: Once each combat, Bronwen may dodge as a strike. And you thought I wasn't going to mention the clan this newsletter is supposed to be about? Here is the oldest of the Brujah Antitribu... Bronwen. Hmmm. She SEEMS good but let's look at her a bit more closely. GOOD - She has all three clan disciplines at superior GOOD - She is a Priscus, giving her a good chance at three votes GOOD - She can dodge as a strike BAD - She costs 10 pool! BAD - Her dodge special is useful for wimpo clans. We need a !Brujah who can dish it out NOT run away! BAD - Her extra disciplines don't mesh well with !Brujah decks Her disciplines, abilities and title are worth the ten pool investment in theory BUT do we really need any of her specials? Unless we are working closely with the Lasombra her extra disciplines aren't likely to help us too much. Neither Obtenebration or Dominate are great for combat. Dominate could assist us in bleeds made with a Presence bleed action, I suppose, but that seems an inefficient use of a large vampire. Obtenebration at inferior can be used defensively in combat but why would we need that? Even if we did need it, her ability is there for free. Obtenebration could be used for stealth to back a bleed or a rush action but again that seems inefficient. All in all, neither Dominate or Obtenebration are likely to help us much in most !Brujah decks. Her title, while nice is easily thwarted by another Methuselah having another Priscus on the table. Furthermore, it will be rare for our clan to be a political force to reckon with. Sure we have Presence, which helps us win votes but at the end of the day our strength is not in the political arena. Most of the more useful Sabbat title vote cards are playable by an Archbishop or Cardinal, many are not available to either Bishops or Prisci. Therefore, a Priscus might be more useful as a vote deterrent... a way to stop hostile votes from landing in your lap. However, a dedicated vote deck will not only laugh at your Priscus, and as a !Brujah you won't even be able to block the votes with intercept most of the time. Much better to use a smaller vampire and a Bum's Rush and show that voting vampire a different sort of political arena: the one where they get decapitated. Being able to dodge as a strike might come in handy sometimes but with a vampire this size, you should have the upper hand in combat. She would however work well with Blur cards. Strike: Dodge as your initial strike and then bang-bang with some increased hand damage. All in all, Bronwen is too expensive for what she provides. Unless you are focusing on politics, she's probably best left out of most !Brujah decks. ============================================================ SIGN OFF I hope you've found this newsletter informative. I had to dig up my old RPG books for the bloodlines and disciplines, though obviously there was much more I could write about each. Regarding the 'Bloodlines' expansion, I am cautious but excited. I trust White Wolf, the design team and especially LSJ to make a superior product. The fact that White Wolf is LISTENING to what we have to say is encouraging and makes me even more willing to give this expansion the benefit of the doubt. Next issue I will give you a Brujah/!Brujah deck kindly submitted by David Cherryholmes. I would have included it this time around but I've already written too much. If you have any questions, comments or flammables please contact me at: gh...@mnsi.net

I think you're focusing a little to much on making the !brujah a dedicated rush-deck... And you're also dissing my dear Obtenebration... which is a fantastic discipline! Two strategies: intercept combat: Bronwen, Jacko and Sela gets +2 intercept, blocks and kills. Bronwen could have eternal vigilance... vote: Bronwen, Jacko and Sela votes at +3 stealth, adding their superior presence modifiers... And with a minion-tap, bwitch, votecap, Bronwen is almost free! [ quoted text not captured ]

"Henke" <d98...@stud.hh.se> wrote > I think you're focusing a little to much on making the !brujah a dedicated > rush-deck... That's funny. The last time I was criticized for not focusing on their rush ability heh. I don't think she works well in any !Brujah deck I have seen. She's just too expensive. What she has to offer isn't worth 10 pool. I can afford Sela and Jimmy Dunn for the same investment and I'm sure they'll be more useful to me. >And you're also dissing my dear Obtenebration... which is a > fantastic discipline! Oh no... not at all! I love Obtenebration. I may write the !Brujah newsletter but I took a Lasombra deck to my first tournament. I just don't like the specific combination of disciplines she has. They don't scream at me with possibilities. > Two strategies: intercept combat: Bronwen, Jacko and > Sela gets +2 intercept, blocks and kills. Bronwen could have eternal > vigilance... > vote: Bronwen, Jacko and Sela votes at +3 stealth, adding their superior > presence modifiers... And with a minion-tap, bwitch, votecap, Bronwen is > almost free! Bronwen (10) Jacko (8? don't have cards handy) and Sela (6). That's 24 pool spent. Add to that whatever you are spending on permanent intercept cards (if any) and that's mighty close to self-ousting. Hmmm, White Wolf site AND Lasombra's site are down apparently so I'll have to wing this by memory. Forgive (and please correct) any errors, cool? I think you mean using the Obtenebration intercept cards: Eyes of the Night and umm... the other one. Well, both are great at superior in fact the maneuver/press of Eyes of the Night would make a great replacement for Flash in a pinch. What if your prey doesn't take actions that you can block though? Could be workable otherwise but it sounds a bit fragile to me. I don't like to play a 'reactive' game if I can help it. I'd rather THEY react to me. (Isn't Eternal Vigilance Cardinal/Archbishop only? Can't recall). As for Obtenebration stealth, all three !Brujah have inferior OBT so they're paying quite a bit and with the Presence modifiiers that adds a lot of conditions for an ideal hand. A better way to get votes through would be to scare them away. I don't associate !Brujah with stealth. Their 'stealth' most of the time consists of 'Let me pass or I kill you.'. Bruise and Vote, comparable to Bruise and Bleed. I think this deck is possible BUT it could be done so much better with other clans and other discipline combos. When I design a new deck... I don't want to make the deck work for the disciplines. I want to make the disciplines work for the deck... does that make sense? It does to me but I haven't slept for 48 hours. Both examples seem to have too many moving parts to me, especially if we also add enough combat cards to be an effective blocker/bruiser. If you have made effective decks such as this, please post them. I'm be curious to see how they look... and how your experiences with them have been. Thanks for the feedback! WES

On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 07:07:54 -0800, "Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote: > >"Henke" <d98...@stud.hh.se> wrote >> I think you're focusing a little to much on making the !brujah a dedicated >> rush-deck... > >That's funny. The last time I was criticized for not focusing on their rush >ability heh. I don't think she works well in any !Brujah deck I have seen. This would tell you that you should write in your newsletter what YOU want to, and sod all to everyone who thinks you should write something different. =) >She's just too expensive. What she has to offer isn't worth 10 pool. I can >afford Sela and Jimmy Dunn for the same investment and I'm sure they'll be >more useful to me. Hm. I made a pretty solid !Brujah bruise-and-vote awhile back... have to go rummage and find it, but with Bronwen and Salinger out, you can usually drop a BO for the votes that really -need- to pass, and beat hell out of anyone who gets in your way. War Party starts to do real well here, too, since you can throw a Party for any other voters who feel disinclined to vote your way. A couple Private Audience would make a great addition as well ("the Ventrue deck over there can fuck off for this vote"), not to mention Jacko and Richter turning themselves into Cardinals. Covenant of Blud! (sic)* would also be very nice to let your guys go a-thumping. Sela, Victor Tolliver, Jimmy, and Rigby all help out a lot as the "backup brigade". And it's always your option whether to use Voter Cap or Taste of Vitae. =) The trick with large vampires, as always, is that you HAVE to start Minion Tapping them; it's simply too risky to influence out Bronwen and Salinger and have 19 pool "in use" on the table. Much nicer to have Bronwen and Salinger with 3 blood each, and all that POT/CEL to defend themselves with. >>And you're also dissing my dear Obtenebration... which is a >> fantastic discipline! > >Oh no... not at all! I love Obtenebration. I may write the !Brujah >newsletter but I took a Lasombra deck to my first tournament. I just don't >like the specific combination of disciplines she has. They don't scream at >me with possibilities. "Black Metamorphosis" at inferior grants one additional strike per ROUND. Trap/Torn Signpost should dispose of most any vampire who isn't carrying S:CE, and if they are, well, you can always be Grabby. Jacko doesn't even need the press card since he can just Grab and swat for 9 on round 1. >> Two strategies: intercept combat: Bronwen, Jacko and >> Sela gets +2 intercept, blocks and kills. Bronwen could have eternal >> vigilance... Card-intensive... darksight + eyes of the night is a long way to go. I don't know that I see this being TOO useful; Forgotten Labyrinth is seeing a lot of use these days, what with the high-powered Tzimisce running around. Not to mention Omaya, the ultimate "Wall" vampire. (sideline: I have a deck that is based around Omaya, Gunther, Bear Paw, and Caitlin; it uses every single "steal me please" location out there, backed up with an Owl Companion and Trap/Carrion Crows/Song of Serenity. Last time I played it, I think I gained 6 pool on my final untap... with only one Blood Doll =) >> vote: Bronwen, Jacko and Sela votes at +3 stealth, adding their superior >> presence modifiers... And with a minion-tap, bwitch, votecap, Bronwen is >> almost free! > >Bronwen (10) Jacko (8? don't have cards handy) and Sela (6). That's 24 pool >spent. Add to that whatever you are spending on permanent intercept cards >(if any) and that's mighty close to self-ousting. Minion Tap before influencing additional vamps, of course. :) >in a pinch. What if your prey doesn't take actions that you can block >though? Could be workable otherwise but it sounds a bit fragile to me. I >don't like to play a 'reactive' game if I can help it. I'd rather THEY react >to me. (Isn't Eternal Vigilance Cardinal/Archbishop only? Can't recall). Reactive is powerful. But the !Brujah simply can't get past +3 stealth without tons of setup time, and any good stealth deck will be able to generate +3 pretty much at will. >scare them away. I don't associate !Brujah with stealth. Their 'stealth' >most of the time consists of 'Let me pass or I kill you.'. Bruise and Vote, >comparable to Bruise and Bleed. Yes. =) Torn Signpost/Blur = a lot of bruising, especially when you note that Amelia, Richter, Jacko, Salinger, and Bronwen ALL pack the disciplines necessary to make this happen. Sure, you don't ALWAYS need to hit for 9, but when you can do it with only two cards, why waste time? :) Poor ole Richter can't Voter Cap to your pool, though, and his Bewitching Orations are kinda crummy. But he makes up for it with the ability to punch you for 6 with just a Blur. Also note that Staredown becomes a very strong card in this deck, as opposed to Immortal Grapple. The Gangrel and Tzimisce both have the ability to intercept your +1 stealth vote and poke your eye out; since all your voters (except poor Richter) have superior PRE, you can drop the Torn Signpost, dodge the aggravated strike, and Blur for some free damage. Or you can S:CE against an opponent who just spat out Trap/Carrion Crows/Blood of Acid. Not worth putting TOO many in, of course, but something to consider as well. >Both examples seem to have too many moving parts to me, especially if we >also add enough combat cards to be an effective blocker/bruiser. If you have >made effective decks such as this, please post them. I'm be curious to see >how they look... and how your experiences with them have been. Getting two voting vamps, worst-case scenario should be Sela and Salinger. That's 3 table votes, plus one for your own vote card. Plus four for a Bewitching Oration is eight votes. It takes a LOT of table votes to override eight. While it's possible to see that, it's also possible that you just spend some time collecting pool, making deals, and occasionally reaching over and pounding someone's vulnerable Prince into torpor until you reduce the votes BELOW eight, or until you get enough pool to fetch more voters. -- D * based on my favourite screenplay, VALLEY OF BLUD! a Poignant Tragedie inne Two Acttes ... with apologies to Terry Pratchett. :)

"Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote in message news:991vj...@enews2.newsguy.com... > BRUJAH ANTITRIBU NEWSLETTER > Volume 2, Issue 5 > March 2001 > Author: Wes [snip] > > Based on this news, I've decided to spend the majority of this newsletter > discussing the new bloodlines and what this entails for the game. Many of > the people who play Jyhad/V:tES do NOT play the role-playing game that it is > based on and I thought they might appreciate a rundown of what each > bloodline is about and what special disciplines they possess. > [snip hugely useful WoD commentary] Cool, thanks Wes made for an interesting read. HUGE potential for VTES Vamps and cards. I guess some of the 'clans' may even be represented by Master cards that transform a vampire into another of the new clans with all the advantages and disadvantages of each. > Regarding the 'Bloodlines' expansion, I am cautious but excited. I trust > White Wolf, the design team and especially LSJ to make a superior product. > The fact that White Wolf is LISTENING to what we have to say is encouraging > and makes me even more willing to give this expansion the benefit of the > doubt. Agree with you there. Rob --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 07/03/01

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:k1s9bt09rkmsreg1l...@4ax.com... > On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 07:07:54 -0800, "Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote: > > > > >"Henke" <d98...@stud.hh.se> wrote > >> I think you're focusing a little to much on making the !brujah a dedicated > >> rush-deck... > > > >That's funny. The last time I was criticized for not focusing on their rush > >ability heh. I don't think she works well in any !Brujah deck I have seen. > > This would tell you that you should write in your newsletter what YOU > want to, and sod all to everyone who thinks you should write something > different. =) No. I appreciate the feedback. If people actually make it through my newsletters my ego is stroked sufficiently that I don't mind the criticism. I enjoy writing them and I hope they're readable and informative. I also recognize that I'm fairly new to the group and not privy to the discussions of the last five years or so. By the suggestions and criticisms of a lot of this newsgroup, I often tend to learn more about the clan than I teach, which is a good thing IMHO. Whatever feedback I get is ends up as idea-fuel for future newsletters. So long as the criticism is constructive and good-natured... bring it on. > Hm. I made a pretty solid !Brujah bruise-and-vote awhile back... have > to go rummage and find it, but with Bronwen and Salinger out, you can > usually drop a BO for the votes that really -need- to pass, and beat > hell out of anyone who gets in your way. War Party starts to do real > well here, too, since you can throw a Party for any other voters who > feel disinclined to vote your way. A couple Private Audience would > make a great addition as well ("the Ventrue deck over there can fuck > off for this vote"), not to mention Jacko and Richter turning > themselves into Cardinals. Covenant of Blud! (sic)* would also be > very nice to let your guys go a-thumping. > > Sela, Victor Tolliver, Jimmy, and Rigby all help out a lot as the > "backup brigade". And it's always your option whether to use Voter > Cap or Taste of Vitae. =) The trick with large vampires, as always, > is that you HAVE to start Minion Tapping them; it's simply too risky > to influence out Bronwen and Salinger and have 19 pool "in use" on the > table. Much nicer to have Bronwen and Salinger with 3 blood each, and > all that POT/CEL to defend themselves with. Sounds intriguing! Please post it (and allow me to print it). Yeah, Minion Taps for sure BUT since the !Brujah don't have the 5th Tradition available I would be a little nervous about that. Taste of Vitae would help but then you also have to be sure you are getting into combat. Do we want the votes to pass, or to be blocked so we can fill back up with blood? Voter Cap could help if not blocked I guess. It seems a bit too unfocussed but I'd love to see it in action. > "Black Metamorphosis" at inferior grants one additional strike per > ROUND. Trap/Torn Signpost should dispose of most any vampire who > isn't carrying S:CE, and if they are, well, you can always be Grabby. > Jacko doesn't even need the press card since he can just Grab and swat > for 9 on round 1. A Shade or two might be nice since we know that we'll be getting in short-range combat... maybe. > Trap/Carrion Crows/Song of Serenity. Damn... I love that combo! I'm building this for Wednesday's game. . > Minion Tap before influencing additional vamps, of course. :) Of course, but you better hope you have them at the right time. More cards to take away focus. How many would you include though? I'm always cautious about relying on Minion Taps. A lot of Sudden Reversals around here lately. > Reactive is powerful. But the !Brujah simply can't get past +3 > stealth without tons of setup time, and any good stealth deck will be > able to generate +3 pretty much at will. Reactive is fun but it's not that effective in a !Brujah deck. Rush decks are by their very nature proactive... but having a bit of intercepty ability is nice too. > Also note that Staredown becomes a very strong card in this deck, as > opposed to Immortal Grapple. The Gangrel and Tzimisce both have the > ability to intercept your +1 stealth vote and poke your eye out; since > all your voters (except poor Richter) have superior PRE, you can drop > the Torn Signpost, dodge the aggravated strike, and Blur for some free > damage. Or you can S:CE against an opponent who just spat out > Trap/Carrion Crows/Blood of Acid. Not worth putting TOO many in, of > course, but something to consider as well. Majesty might be better than Staredown in this case. Bleed for two with Sela. If blocked, play Majesty... untap, then play a Parity Shift. But still, it seems other clans are so much better at this sort of shit than the !Bru(tes). I don't know about Trap with Blood of Acid. At superior, when you take the aggravated damage in the first round you'll be unlikely to go to the second round. Trap becomes redundant... doesn't it? And at inferior, the opponent is likely to lose more blood than you anyway. Of course, if someone played a Trap while they were playing my !Brujah deck I'd probably thank them for it :) Cheers, WES

"Rob Treasure" <Rob.Tr...@btinternet.com> wrote > [snip hugely useful WoD commentary] > > Cool, thanks Wes made for an interesting read. HUGE potential for VTES Vamps > and cards. I guess some of the 'clans' may even be represented by Master > cards that transform a vampire into another of the new clans with all the > advantages and disadvantages of each. You're very welcome! I'm glad you liked it. I found a web-page with some more info, though some of it is outdated. It seems to be ripped right off of the White Wolf books but I'm sure you can mine it for more information before Mr. Wieck sues them :) http://www.angelfire.com/de2/clans/ 'Changing' clans is not really possible since you are basically 'born' into one. It's not a matter of personal preference except for one notable exception... Vlad Dracul. He was knowledgable about the clans while still a mortal ghoul and was able to CHOOSE the Tzimisce as his clan, though that story is way too complicated to get into here. Exactly why he would choose the Tzimisce is beyond me. Maybe he wasn't happy with his appearance. You can pretend to be another clan; the Setites often masquerade as other clans for their own protection and convenience. A Brujah could become a !Brujah though by renouncing his ties to the Camarilla and participating in Sabbat ritae. The reverse is NOT so easy... The shared blood bonds that occur after the Vaulderie pretty much ensure that those who join the Sabbat STAY in the Sabbat. Actually, I was surprised there were no cards to represent this in either Sabbat cardsets. Imagine: Shovel Party +1 Stealth (D) Action Only usable by a Sabbat vampire. Choose a vampire that is not Sabbat. That vampire is now considered a Sabbat vampire. This vampire loses access to any Camarilla cards but gains access to Sabbat cards. They are still considered to be the same clan. In Jyhad, that !Malkavian card is more of a 'crazy' card than a real clan-switch IMO. I guess the implication is supposed to be that the affected vampire is now so fucked up in the head that she may as well be a !Malk. AFAIK, there is no way in the World of Darkness to actually transform from one clan to another... I could be wrong though. Cheers, WES

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 01:03:03 -0800, "Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote: >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:k1s9bt09rkmsreg1l...@4ax.com... >> On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 07:07:54 -0800, "Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote: >> This would tell you that you should write in your newsletter what YOU >> want to, and sod all to everyone who thinks you should write something >> different. =) > >No. I appreciate the feedback. If people actually make it through my >newsletters my ego is stroked sufficiently that I don't mind the criticism. >I enjoy writing them and I hope they're readable and informative. I also >recognize that I'm fairly new to the group and not privy to the discussions >of the last five years or so. By the suggestions and criticisms of a lot of >this newsgroup, I often tend to learn more about the clan than I teach, >which is a good thing IMHO. Whatever feedback I get is ends up as idea-fuel >for future newsletters. > >So long as the criticism is constructive and good-natured... bring it on. Well, yes. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't still stick to writing about what you want to; it's just that you are willing to change what you want by listening to other people. =) But make sure you actually -want- it. The avenues of "rush" have been pretty thoroughly explored in various forms or other; variants on it might be curious. >Sounds intriguing! Please post it (and allow me to print it). I found that I never filed it under ELDB (rare, for me, since I build everything there first). I've since rebuilt it and it'll have to go run through a test or two again. Bleh. But it's a 75-card version, so it should be interesting; the last version was 90 and probably had a bunch of crap in it. >Yeah, Minion Taps for sure BUT since the !Brujah don't have the 5th >Tradition available I would be a little nervous about that. Taste of Vitae *shrug* Yes, but you do have intimidation on your side; it's no fun to go pick on Bronwen with 3 blood and have her dodge and swat you for 6. If you're worried about Potence, leave a little bit more blood so you can be sure to pay for your Blur even if you're IG'd. Vamps don't HAVE to be full to be functional. =) >would help but then you also have to be sure you are getting into combat. Do >we want the votes to pass, or to be blocked so we can fill back up with >blood? Voter Cap could help if not blocked I guess. It seems a bit too >unfocussed but I'd love to see it in action. You pick WHILE building the deck whether to include Bewitching Oration/Voter Cap, or Bum's Rush/Taste of Vitae. =) Trying to do both would probably be silly and excessively defocused. This version I've got went towards the BO/VC line. >> "Black Metamorphosis" at inferior grants one additional strike per >> ROUND. Trap/Torn Signpost should dispose of most any vampire who >> isn't carrying S:CE, and if they are, well, you can always be Grabby. >> Jacko doesn't even need the press card since he can just Grab and swat >> for 9 on round 1. > >A Shade or two might be nice since we know that we'll be getting in >short-range combat... maybe. Bleh. recruit action on TOP of the Black Metamorphosis? Given the alternative of one or the other, I'd rather have the additional strike, which will be for more than 1 extra point usually. Both, well, that's taking an awful lot of time and blood to set up. >> Trap/Carrion Crows/Song of Serenity. > >Damn... I love that combo! I'm building this for Wednesday's game. Heh. The trick is getting the Owl Companions early on. Otherwise you have no deterrent to people hurling weenies at you to come and get your stuff. =) And that can be a real problem, especially if you get Powerbase: Mexico City, a Blood Puppy, and Smiling Jack out. >> Minion Tap before influencing additional vamps, of course. :) > >Of course, but you better hope you have them at the right time. More cards >to take away focus. How many would you include though? I'm always cautious >about relying on Minion Taps. A lot of Sudden Reversals around here lately. 6 in 75 is a good number for me; you'll get one eventually. Sudden Reversals, (shrug); not much you can do. For a local playgroup, you need to convince them that including 4 Sudden Reversals is generally a weaker strategy than including 4 positive Masters. >> Also note that Staredown becomes a very strong card in this deck, as >> opposed to Immortal Grapple. The Gangrel and Tzimisce both have the >> ability to intercept your +1 stealth vote and poke your eye out; since >> all your voters (except poor Richter) have superior PRE, you can drop >> the Torn Signpost, dodge the aggravated strike, and Blur for some free >> damage. Or you can S:CE against an opponent who just spat out >> Trap/Carrion Crows/Blood of Acid. Not worth putting TOO many in, of >> course, but something to consider as well. > >Majesty might be better than Staredown in this case. Bleed for two with >Sela. If blocked, play Majesty... untap, then play a Parity Shift. But >still, it seems other clans are so much better at this sort of shit than the >!Bru(tes). Well, aside from the fact that you can't Parity Shift with !Brujah,... playing Majesty at superior all the time drains your Minion Tapped guys of blood very rapidly. Also, you risk Mr. Happy Bounce just passing on your bleeds and not letting you untap to call the vote that you need to Voter Cap to reload your blood. =) Right now, I'd be a LOT more worried about the Tzimisce and the preponderance of even-casual intercept that's floating around. With Majesty, they just intercept the vote action as well and you'll eventually run out, whereupon you'll get poked in the eye. With Staredown, you can get hopefully get rid of the interceptors and be free to actually call those votes. >I don't know about Trap with Blood of Acid. At superior, when you take the >aggravated damage in the first round you'll be unlikely to go to the second >round. Trap becomes redundant... doesn't it? And at inferior, the opponent >is likely to lose more blood than you anyway. Of course, if someone played a >Trap while they were playing my !Brujah deck I'd probably thank them for it You end up with Trap/Blood of Acid because of BoA's timing. Before range, you play Trap/Carrion Crows/Song of Serenity. Your intended victim plays a Torn Signpost and Fists of Death, and things look somewhat ill for you in the future. NOW is the first opportunity you have to play Blood of Acid, though, due to its card text. I couldn't see making a Trap/BoA deck on purpose either, no. -- Derek "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - C. Darwin, 1871

Hiya: I´m only playing Jyhad again after a long period of inactivity, so please bear with me. First Question: My 'Fame' from V:TES says that the controller´s _prey_ burns 3 pool if the vampire goes to torpor; the new 'fame' from SW says that the _controller_ of the famous vampire burns 3 blood. Which is it? Second Question: Can I use Life Boon to save my predator, give him all my remaining pool, and thereby oust myself AND gain the victory point? (I recently did this, by the way. Not a bad idea either, since my predator had a previous Life Boon on him. I figured giving him all my pool and ousting myself sets him up nicely to gather the other vp he owed me!) Third Question: Wolf Claws can be used _after_ strikes have been chosen, but _before_ they are resolved, (i.e., you can pull out the claws after the opposing minion has already chosen his strike, when you know it will not be a dodge or s:ce). True or false? Fourth Question: Can Surprise Influence be played by an ally? That's most of my difficulties for now. I´ll be sure to pipe up again as others come up. Thanks for the help! Sigmund Bjornstein

Dorrie Bly wrote: > > Hiya: > > I惴 only playing Jyhad again after a long period of inactivity, so please > bear with me. > > First Question: My 'Fame' from V:TES says that the controller愀 _prey_ burns > 3 pool if the vampire goes to torpor; the new 'fame' from SW says that the > _controller_ of the famous vampire burns 3 blood. Which is it? The SW printing. See the official card texts online. > Second Question: Can I use Life Boon to save my predator, give him all my > remaining pool, and thereby oust myself AND gain the victory point? (I > recently did this, by the way. Not a bad idea either, since my predator had > a previous Life Boon on him. I figured giving him all my pool and ousting > myself sets him up nicely to gather the other vp he owed me!) No. You must be around to collect the VP. If you're already ousted, then the Life Boon (which you control) is burned, and therefore the Life Boon's effect is nil. > Third Question: Wolf Claws can be used _after_ strikes have been chosen, but > _before_ they are resolved, (i.e., you can pull out the claws after the > opposing minion has already chosen his strike, when you know it will not be > a dodge or s:ce). True or false? True. > Fourth Question: Can Surprise Influence be played by an ally? No, by card text. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote in message news:9948i...@enews3.newsguy.com... > Shovel Party > +1 Stealth (D) Action > Only usable by a Sabbat vampire. > Choose a vampire that is not Sabbat. That vampire is now considered a Sabbat > vampire. This vampire loses access to any Camarilla cards but gains access > to Sabbat cards. They are still considered to be the same clan. Um. Even more horrifying than the old interpretation of Of Noble Blood. It would be brutal unless it read something like: "Choose a vampire you control which is not Sabbat." Xian

>'Changing' clans is not really possible since you are basically 'born' into >one. It's not a matter of personal preference except for one notable >exception... Vlad Dracul. He was knowledgable about the clans while still a >mortal ghoul and was able to CHOOSE the Tzimisce as his clan, though that >story is way too complicated to get into here. Vlad Dracul "choosing" to be Tzimisce? I'm not fully familiar with the story (Tzimisce are not my specialty), but I thought it was pretty much that he captured Lambach, coerced Lambach to embrace him, and then diablerized his grandsire (Lambach's sire). I always got the interpretation he just happened to come upon Tzimisce vampires (as opposed to choosing them). Actually, there is one notable exception on changing clans -- the Baali. A while ago I found some site with a bunch of info about them but I'm not sure how much is actually canon (I've passed on buying the Baali Clanbook multiple times. Not really interested in Black Dog stuff). I read that within the Baali there are "true" Baali and "adopted" Baali. Apparently, Baali constantly try to corrupt vampires from other clans to join them. Then they go through some symbolic ritual thing to become Baali. Or some junk like that. >The shared blood bonds that occur after the Vaulderie pretty much ensure >that those who join the Sabbat STAY in the Sabbat. Although the Vaulderie does create a strong bond, the bond does gradually fade. I think I recall some vampire in Montreal by Night who was starting to grow detached from his pack because he intentionally missed the past several vaulderies. Halcyan 2

Very nice explanation and analysis of the Bloodlines Wes! Just going to add a few sidenotes of my own: >Ahrimanes >Disciplines: Animalism + Presence + [Spiritus] Out of all the bloodlines, I think the Ahrimanes are going to have the hardest time. With that sort of discipline selection, you'd be hard pressed to find a reliable clan with which to get similar vampires. >Baali Although I like the idea of the Baali, some of the storyline ideas of them are just way too lame. I'm especially annoyed by the story about how Troile (the Brujah Ante) apparently has a Baali lover named Moloch and they're supposed to be buried together under Carthage. SUCH a lame story! >Blood Brothers >---------------- >A modern experiment of the Tzimisce, this Sabbat bloodline is rare but >feared by those who have had the misfortune of meeting them. They are >mystically bonded to each other and are able to exchange limbs, take wounds >meant for each other and combine to form monstrous composite creatures. A >curious thing about the Blood Brothers is that they are crafted by the >Tzimisce to look identical; usually they have the appearance of a gang of >skinheads. This is an appropriate image as they are generally used by their >masters as shock troops. Because of their unique connection to each other, >they are vicious in combat, able to effectively work as a hive-mind. As the Tremere Antitribu newsletter editor, I feel obligated to point out that it wasn't solely the Tzimisce who took part in creating the Blood Brothers. The !Tremere played an intricate role (much more than does silly Tzimisce!). Though it still bewilders me why the !Brujah ended up with the Blood Brother-related card. (I suppose they share the same temperaments). >Often mistaken for Toreadors, members of this bloodline are known for their >exquisite singing voices. They are easily distracted and often seem... >distant. Though they have no allegiance to the Camarilla or the Sabbat, they >tend to reside in Camarilla cities, probably because it is safer for them. >Strangely, this bloodline appeared out of nowhere in the 1700s. Though they >do seem to share the stage with the Toreador, those who have been victims of >the madness induced by their singing claim that they may be a bloodline of >the Malkavian clan. The Sirens are cursed with constant maddening music in >their minds distracting them from anything but the songs in their heads. Besides the rumor of being a bloodline from the Malkavians, there's also a theory that they stem from some sort of connection between the Toreador and the Sidhe. Libellous Sanguinous II (a Dark Ages clanbook) has a sidebar in the Toreador section about some Toreador lady who was given music lessons by a Sidhe. Also note that while there used to be male "Daughters," recently the DoC had a culling where just about all the males were killed. Note that there are still at least two transvestites who survived though...(meaning Dancin' Dana will finally get some company!) >Gargoyles >---------- >Originally a cruel experiment of the nascent Tremere clan, Cruel? Come on! The gargoyles were much better off under the wise hand of the Tremere. Freedom and Independence? Bah! Hopefully the Gargoyles will one day realize their folly and return to the fold... >In the Dark Ages, the Tremere >captured hostile Nosferatu and Gangrel Besides Nosferatu and Gangrel blood, some Tzimisce stock was also intermingled. And note that it was the illustrious Goratrix (of the great clan !Tremere) who actually developed this. And while it sounds cruel, the Tremere, being unrightfully attacked by all sides by various other clans only did this as a last resort. Speaking of Gargoyles, I'll eventually get around to featuring them in the Tremere Antitribu Newsletter. And if anyone can actually find a good use for Gargoyle Slaves (besides for an easy self-oust), I'd love to hear them! >Kiasyd >------- >This strange bloodline is derived from the Lasombra and seem to share some >connection with the Fae. These recluses are known for their enigmatic beauty >and are respected for their vast arcane knowledge. The Weirdlings are almost >exclusively members of the Sabbat but like the other Sabbat bloodlines they >rarely participate in sect rites. Possibly because of their fae heritage, >Kiasyd have very strange features. Often standing over seven feet tall, with >a blue sheen to their skin and deep black eyes, they rarely pass for human. > >Disciplines: Obtenebration + Dominate + [Mytherceria] > >(Note: Formerly Necromancy was a clan discipline) (Kiasyd REALLY annoy me!). Though I have to admit that 3rd Edition Kiasyd is much better than 2nd. The 2nd Edition Kiasyd (OBT NEC MYT) was so unbelievably twinkish! And 2nd Edition Mytherceria was also insanely broken. >Nagaraja >Disciplines: Auspex + Dominate + Necromancy Now here's something I look forward to! With Auspex and Dominate, the Nagaraja look ripe to make !Tremere/Giovanni ally decks even more viable! >Almost extinct, this bloodline has fallen from grace. They were one of the >original thirteen clans but when their founder Saulot was diablerized by the >mage known as Tremere, they were hunted almost to extinction. Tremere >propaganda ensures that these gentle healers are universally regarded as >evil incarnate. Those Salubri got what they deserved! Such is the price of defying the Tremere and consorting with demons!!! >Salubri are unique in >that they possess a third eye, in the centre of their forehead which glows >when they use their signature discipline. While just about every Salubri has a third eye, not all Salubri do. It doesn't develop till around the 2nd level of Obeah/Valeren is learned. >Harbingers of Skulls >Samedi Ewwwwwww! Need I say more? >They are actually descendants of a >vampire named Troile who diablerized the founder, his/her sire. While this is the most common theory, the new Brujah Clanbook suggests that Brujah and Troile might have been the same vampire from the beginning... >(Note: this discipline has been completely altered from its original >twink-ridden form. IMHO it's still 'broken' in the RPG but could make for >some interesting cards/abilities in V:tES) Yep. 3rd Edition has done a good job changing Temporis. Temporis is a particularly interesting discipline in that it's supposed to be the "predecessor" for Celerity. The Trujah and the Brujah make fascinating specimens in the study on the evolution of disciplines. Temporis tends to be much more focused than the diversity of Celerity and it is supposed to be impossible to know both (which may make things interesting if Temporis becomes a discipline). It's something like: if you know Celerity but what to learn Temporis, you lose all your Celerity to gain equivalent levels of Temporis. Something like that. Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote > Vlad Dracul "choosing" to be Tzimisce? I'm not fully familiar with the story > (Tzimisce are not my specialty), but I thought it was pretty much that he > captured Lambach, coerced Lambach to embrace him, and then diablerized his > grandsire (Lambach's sire). I always got the interpretation he just happened to > come upon Tzimisce vampires (as opposed to choosing them). We're both correct. He captured Lambach because he was the desired clan... I think. It's been a while. I'll see what I can dig up. > Actually, there is one notable exception on changing clans -- the Baali. A > while ago I found some site with a bunch of info about them but I'm not sure > how much is actually canon (I've passed on buying the Baali Clanbook multiple > times. Not really interested in Black Dog stuff). I read that within the Baali > there are "true" Baali and "adopted" Baali. Apparently, Baali constantly try to > corrupt vampires from other clans to join them. Then they go through some > symbolic ritual thing to become Baali. Or some junk like that. Adopting is not the same though. A Caitiff can be adopted into a clan... but that does not make them a member of the 'bloodline (well unless their sire adopted them I guess). Though I think you might be right about some kind of thing with the Baali. I do have that clanbook somewhere... I'll see what I can find. > >The shared blood bonds that occur after the Vaulderie pretty much ensure > >that those who join the Sabbat STAY in the Sabbat. > > Although the Vaulderie does create a strong bond, the bond does gradually fade. > I think I recall some vampire in Montreal by Night who was starting to grow > detached from his pack because he intentionally missed the past several > vaulderies. It doesn't fade. It lasts forever, unlike the Blood Bond. Or so the Guide to the Sabbat states which came out after Montreal By Night. Unfortunately, a lot of White Wolf material contradicts itself and frankly as far as the RPG goes, who cares? If you want it to be one way, White Wolf isn't going to impose their way. If you want to say that the Sabbat don't even exist in your game, who's to stop you? I'll see what I can find out regarding the Baali and Dracula though. Cheers, WES

"Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote > Um. Even more horrifying than the old interpretation of Of Noble Blood. It > would be brutal unless it read something like: "Choose a vampire you control > which is not Sabbat." Nah... it'd be fun. Maybe knock off the stealth if you like. Roving packs of Sabbat ruffians aren't exactly known for their 'silent mode'.

Excellent job! >Thanatosis >----------- >This discipline is NASTY. The Samedi use their control of putrefaction and >decay to terrorize and immobilize their opponents. Limbs can be made useless >(Disarm?) or victims can simply be 'rotted' away at the vampire's touch. >Combat cards are the most obvious application here... I would think similar >to Vicissitude's cards like Bonecrarft or Fleshcraft but a lot more >dangerous. This discipline also gives the vampire the ability to become a >pile of ashes... Strike: Combat Ends would be the obvious analog for this. Hehe, would it be like Mummify, only a little more understandable, since it's hard to rescue yourself when you're granular? This would require the creation of Shop-Vac as a non-unique equipment card. ; - )

"Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote in message news:996mt...@enews2.newsguy.com... [shovel gang something or other] > Nah... it'd be fun. Maybe knock off the stealth if you like. Roving packs of > Sabbat ruffians aren't exactly known for their 'silent mode'. Oh, it'd be fun, but it'd be unnecessarily cruel to the all-Inner Circle decks with only Majesty for combat defense. I'd put a bunch in my Pot-Obf deck. Xian

"Xian" <xi...@waste.org> > Oh, it'd be fun, but it'd be unnecessarily cruel to the all-Inner Circle decks > with only Majesty for combat defense. I'd put a bunch in my Pot-Obf deck. Pretty pointless discussing a card that doesnt exist heh... but consider this: One problem with playing Sabbat has always been that the Camarilla seems to have access to better cards (specifically I'm thinking Traditions for pool gain). Rather than give the Sabbat those cards, DENY the Camarilla their use of them as well. If I can't have it nobody can. Hmmm... that would be cruel. I like it. White Wolf, consider it a freebie heh. Cheers, WES

> > Second Question: Can I use Life Boon to save my predator, give him all my > > remaining pool, and thereby oust myself AND gain the victory point? (I > > recently did this, by the way. Not a bad idea either, since my predator had > > a previous Life Boon on him. I figured giving him all my pool and ousting > > myself sets him up nicely to gather the other vp he owed me!) > No. You must be around to collect the VP. If you're already ousted, then > the Life Boon (which you control) is burned, and therefore the Life Boon's > effect is nil. I'm a little curious how many different options on how to change this card were considered. While I would be interested in hearing what the options were, I know that's probably not going to happen and so would just like to hear if more than just the above was considered. While the LifeBoon-SelfOust was obviously considered a problem (it was errata'd after all; I never thought it was an issue), I kind of think this change went a little too far. You are already sacrificing a bit of yourself and your position in playing this card. If something unforseen comes up and you get ousted prematurely, you get nothing for that sacrifice. Personally, I think there is something intrinsically unfair about that, but evidently this was the fairest solution to the "percieved" problem. Bearing that in mind, how many other solutions where put on the table before this one was finally selected? Is that something you can even tell us? Sorrow --- no hate no wars no ignorance no politics no pain no force no weapons no oppression no sorrow no chemicals no dust no leaders no violence no dust no leaders no leaders now it's time for the world to see a man with open eyes now it's time to realize we tell ourselves the best of lies

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, the card is still at the top end of the power spectrum, so the change is not considered to have "gone too far". [ quoted text not captured ]

> > errata'd after all; I never thought it was an issue), I kind of think this > > change went a little too far. You are already sacrificing a bit of yourself > > and your position in playing this card. If something unforseen comes up > > and you get ousted prematurely, you get nothing for that sacrifice. > > Personally, I think there is something intrinsically unfair about that, but > > evidently this was the fairest solution to the "percieved" problem. Bearing > > that in mind, how many other solutions where put on the table before this > > one was finally selected? > > Is that something you can even tell us? > Well, the card is still at the top end of the power spectrum, so the change > is not considered to have "gone too far". How is it still? You save a meth from being ousted with just a few pool. If they are ousted again, you gain nothing and lost that pool. So you have to give enough to where you can gain something out of it and not put yourself at risk of being ousted (because, after all, if you are out of the game you no longer get anything from it). So with it being much more of a balancing act, I don't see how it is still on the top end of the power spectrum. Is it because you gain the VP instead? Sorrow --- "Are they dead?" - Pugsly "Does it matter?" - Wednesday

-- "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote in message news:tbnnm0d...@corp.supernews.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Yes it's because of the VP and that it was abused in tournaments. It's stilla good card, why? Because if someone for example uses a minion tap deck but gets ousted after bringing out a high cap vamp, you can play life boon. He then minion taps and you can take back one pool from him every turn and he has plenty of them. That's just one example. Another is when you get bled, you deflect to prey and he's ousted, but you play Life Boon because he has a S&B deck (which you don't) and can get out ur grandprey much easier. You let him do that and collect the VP and you try to time it so he only has one pool (you draw out his pool through LB if he gain any) and then he gets another 6 for the ousting. So he has 7 pool but you got the VP and you might be able to oust him now still. A 3rd example could be when you want your rpedator to stay alive, becuase he mostly blocks your grandpredator who plays a deck you definately don't want agaisnt you. Then your predator can continue to act like a wall for you. Giving out pool for life boon may sound like a bad deal, but if you play a bloat deck then you have plenty. Give some away, and then play parity shift on your prey :)