Sorry about asking for more rules clarifications
but I'm new to the newsgroup and I no doubt missed
the original posting. Do DS rules differ in any way
from V:TES rules? Especially in the case of the new
clans? For example, I read somewhere that Non-Camarilla
vamps can't become princes. If this is the case I'm
confused...the implication of the Praxis Seizure: Venice
is clearly that the Giovanni are ELIGIBLE to acquire the
position of Prince of Venice. If anyone could help me with
this and post the complete rules I would greatlyappreciate
it.
Me again...on a related note, what is the difference
between KRCG News Radio and the London Evening Star
Tabloid Newspaper?-- they seem the same...why is the
Radio less expensive?
In article <1772AC60A...@kentvm.kent.edu> KNAL...@kentvm.kent.edu writes:
>vamps can't become princes. If this is the case I'm
>confused...the implication of the Praxis Seizure: Venice
>is clearly that the Giovanni are ELIGIBLE to acquire the
>position of Prince of Venice.
That is why we have the house rule that Giovanni can call and be named the
Prince of Venice even if the stupid acceptance vote hasn't passed (which would
require Bribes or some such) but not any other prince.
There was a posting just yesterday about what it means to be non-camarilla.
Also on the 1st and 16th of every month the rules are posted.
[ quoted text not captured ]
The Evening Star lets you give intercept to other players' minions without
spending pool to do so. So if you're in the habit of doing this, the Star
will pay for itself after two or three uses.
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
KNAL...@kentvm.kent.edu wrote:
: Sorry about asking for more rules clarifications: but I'm new to the newsgroup and I no doubt missed
: the original posting. Do DS rules differ in any way
: from V:TES rules? Especially in the case of the new
: clans? For example, I read somewhere that Non-Camarilla: vamps can't become princes. If this is the case I'm: confused...the implication of the Praxis Seizure: Venice
: is clearly that the Giovanni are ELIGIBLE to acquire the: position of Prince of Venice. If anyone could help me with: this and post the complete rules I would greatlyappreciate
: it.
I know someone already posted about thes house rule stating that Giovanni
could become this Prince, but I disagree with it. I stated my position
about this a long time ago, and I'll give a synopsis now.
True, Giovanni (and Ravnos) can NOT become Princes (i.e. high ranking
members of the Camarilla) unless they are first RECOGNIZED as being eligible
to be such (i.e. they have to become PART of the Camarilla FIRST.).
While this puts Giovanni and Ravnos at somewhat of a disadvantage as a
voting clan, it is one of the few instances where it seems that WoTC has
placed into the rules (despite the fact that these rules are NOT printed
with the game, mind you) restrictions which MAKE SENSE with regards to both
the game's origins AND common sense.
NC (Non-Camarilla) vampires are not part of the Camarilla by definition. In
order for them to hold offices IN THIS CAMARILLA they need to be accepted by
this organization -- thus Giovanni and Ravnos Acceptance. INHERENT IN THIS
FACT is the point that these clans will most always need to have some help
from existing Camarilla members to be voted in. This would include bribes
or vote pushing or whatever you want. It should NOT be easy for an
established outsider to become a member of an inherently closed society.
In my opinion, that is the end of the discussion.
The fact that there is no comparable (Camarilla-like) political organization
for Giovanni or Ravnos to have influence over their domain is explained
by one of two things: design oversight or historic context (as would be
explained by V:TM). Neither reason is a good one to break either Camarilla
tradition or common sense, and I am glad that WoTC should the restraint to
do so.
-James
In article <4fnq65$c...@gw.dgii.com> jam...@gw.digibd.com (James Puzzo) writes:
>True, Giovanni (and Ravnos) can NOT become Princes (i.e. high ranking
>members of the Camarilla) unless they are first RECOGNIZED as being eligible
>to be such (i.e. they have to become PART of the Camarilla FIRST.).
Couldn't Giovanni be in charge of their own city? If there are 100 Giovanni
in one place don't they command some respect from Camarilla vampires entering
their domain? Shouldn't they have some say in whether a Camarilla vampire can
seize territory in their city (Mausoleum, Venice)? I though a prince was just
in charge of his city not necessarily a high ranking member of the camarilla
like a Justicar or Inner Circle.
Tom wrote:
> There's a difference between having control of a city, and being a Prince.
> "Prince" is a strictly Cam title, and non-Cam vampires simply cannot be
> Prtinces. Yes, some Giovanni could say "I'm prince of Rome", and some
> Sabbat goob could say "I'm prince of New York." But neither statement
> would carry any weight within the Cam, since the vampire in question
> isn't a member. The special rules for Praxis Seizure: Rome reflect
> the unofficial lock that the Giovanni have on Rome, but that lock doesn't
> let them lay claim to the title of Prince.
A sensible house rule would be that Giovanni can use PS: Venice, and
gain the two votes, but are still barred from using any cards that require
princes unless the acceptance vote has passed. This would represent the
power and influence due someone controlling a major city and the
Giovanni's non-Camarilla status.
*********************************************************************
Santiago * Ignorance is curable,
e-mail: * but stupidity is terminal.
ia...@mail.utexas.edu *
Daniel Hoffman (dhof...@cris.com) wrote:
: >True, Giovanni (and Ravnos) can NOT become Princes (i.e. high ranking: >members of the Camarilla) unless they are first RECOGNIZED as being eligible
: >to be such (i.e. they have to become PART of the Camarilla FIRST.).
:
: Couldn't Giovanni be in charge of their own city? If there are 100
: Giovanni in one place don't they command some respect from Camarilla
: vampires entering their domain? Shouldn't they have some say in
: whether a Camarilla vampire can seize territory in their city
: (Mausoleum, Venice)? I though a prince was just in charge of his
: city not necessarily a high ranking member of the camarilla like a
: Justicar or Inner Circle.
Yes, they could be in charge of their own city, BUT THEY WOULD NOT HAVE A
CAMARILLA TITLE. The fact that they may have influence is inherent in the
fact that some of them have votes without titles. To this point, Jyhad has
been a CAMARILLA game, and WoTC did not build into the expansion an alternate
power structure for those who do not belong. The NC vampires should not
expect to have inherent influence in a game dominated by the Camarilla.
Perhaps it would be nice, but as I stated in my prior post, it wouldn't make
sense to break game logic for the sake of convenience -- and I'm glad they
didn't. True, it seems unfair that the Giovanni should be placed at such a
disadvantage, and that _something_ should have been done to allow NC vamps to
accrue influence without having to deal with the Camarilla. Reality is, they
didn't. If you don't like it, that's what house rules are for.
Maybe the next time they release Jyhad/V:TES they will change the name to
"Vampire:The Camarilla" and be done with it.
We will see if the rumored Sabbat expansion addresses the issue of alternates
to the Camarilla. I would THINK that it would _have_ to, since the point of
the Sabbat is that it is a large infrastructure in opposition to the
Camarilla. But then again, why should I _expect_ logic when I have seen
so little of it?
And of course, the Giovanni will have to plead with the Sabbat to get
influence as well. :)
-James
Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:
: Daniel Hoffman <dhof...@cris.com> wrote:
: >Couldn't Giovanni be in charge of their own city? If there are 100 Giovanni
: >in one place don't they command some respect from Camarilla vampires entering
: >their domain? Shouldn't they have some say in whether a Camarilla vampire can
: >seize territory in their city (Mausoleum, Venice)? I though a prince was just
: >in charge of his city not necessarily a high ranking member of the camarilla
: >like a Justicar or Inner Circle.: There's a difference between having control of a city, and being a Prince.: "Prince" is a strictly Cam title, and non-Cam vampires simply cannot be
: Prtinces. Yes, some Giovanni could say "I'm prince of Rome", and some
: Sabbat goob could say "I'm prince of New York." But neither statement
: would carry any weight within the Cam, since the vampire in question
: isn't a member. The special rules for Praxis Seizure: Rome reflect
: the unofficial lock that the Giovanni have on Rome, but that lock doesn't
: let them lay claim to the title of Prince.
Not meaning to flame, and I understand the mistake, but it's Venice
that's Giovanni controlled. Rome is (in V:tES at least) controlled by the
Brujah, Constanza to be exact.
--
Modest, industrious, benevolent, temperate: is that how you would have
men? Good men? But to me that seems only the ideal slave, the slave of
the future. Modesty, industiousness, bevevolence, temperance are just so
many hinderances to a sovereign disposition, great inventiveness, heroic
purposefullness, noble being-for-oneself.
--Friedrich Nietzsche, "The Will to Power"
/------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| You don't get what you deserve, | Good people are good because they |
| You get what you take. | are not strong enought to be evil.|
|-----------------------------------+------------------------------------|
| Conflicts between right and wrong | 'Conscience' is nothing more than |
| are a sickness of the mind. | the fear of being caught. |
\------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Harry Smith <hsm...@garfield.msms.doe.k12.ms.us> wrote:
>:>Couldn't Giovanni be in charge of their own city?...>: There's a difference between having control of a city, and being a Prince.
>: "Prince" is a strictly Cam title, and non-Cam vampires simply cannot be>: Prtinces. Yes, some Giovanni could say "I'm prince of Rome"...>Not meaning to flame, and I understand the mistake, but it's Venice
>that's Giovanni controlled. Rome is (in V:tES at least) controlled by the
>Brujah, Constanza to be exact.
Actually, we are talking about Praxis Seizure: Venice here. I didn't think
to RTFC before mentioning Rome.
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Puzzo (jam...@gw.digibd.com) wrote:
>> We will see if the rumored Sabbat expansion addresses the issue of alternates
>> to the Camarilla. I would THINK that it would _have_ to, since the point of
>> the Sabbat is that it is a large infrastructure in opposition to the
>> Camarilla. But then again, why should I _expect_ logic when I have seen
>> so little of it?
SABBAT EXPANSION???
I'm new to this newsgroup, but play both the cardgame and the live action
game... It's been my experience in live-action that sabbat are just
entirely and totally uber-heinous. I cower at the thought of having to go
up against sabbat...
--
____________________________________________________________________
Earl, are you okay???
Earl?????
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Courtney Campbell
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt3680b
Internet: gt3...@prism.gatech.edu
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt3680b
My archons informed me that gt3...@acmex.gatech.edu (Robert Courtney
Campbell) wrote on 26 Feb 1996 07:31:11 GMT:
>James Puzzo (jam...@gw.digibd.com) wrote:>>> We will see if the rumored Sabbat expansion addresses the issue of alternates
>>> to the Camarilla. I would THINK that it would _have_ to, since the point of
>>> the Sabbat is that it is a large infrastructure in opposition to the
>>> Camarilla. But then again, why should I _expect_ logic when I have seen
>>> so little of it?>SABBAT EXPANSION???>I'm new to this newsgroup, but play both the cardgame and the live action
>game... It's been my experience in live-action that sabbat are just
>entirely and totally uber-heinous. I cower at the thought of having to go
>up against sabbat...
Well, better get ready. WotC has announced it a while ago now. It is
supposed to come out after Ancient Hearts. The news can be found at
their site I believe http://www.wizards.com
PHIlippus
|
http://www.cs.utwente.nl/~baalman | "Talk to yourself
mailto:j.p.a....@student.utwente.nl | Listen, because no one else will"
Philippus Baalman | --- The God Machine
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> We will see if the rumored Sabbat expansion
addresses the issue of alternates
>>>> to the Camarilla. I would THINK that it would
_have_ to, since the point of
>>>> the Sabbat is that it is a large infrastructure in
opposition to the
>>>> Camarilla. But then again, why should I _expect_
logic when I have seen
>>>> so little of it?>>>SABBAT EXPANSION???>>>I'm new to this newsgroup, but play both the cardgame
and the live action
>>game... It's been my experience in live-action that
sabbat are just
>>entirely and totally uber-heinous. I cower at the
thought of having to go
>>up against sabbat...>
>Well, better get ready. WotC has announced it a while
ago now. It is
>supposed to come out after Ancient Hearts. The news can
be found at
>their site I believe http://www.wizards.com
If they do bring out a sabbat game I think that they
will have to do something similar to Ice age for magic,
with a new set of rules, because there will be a
completely different political situation between the
Cammarilla and the Sabbat, it would be difficult to
organise it without creating LOTS of new rulings, a lot
more than just the few thins that make a Non-Cammarilla
different, as Sabbat would have a completely different
voting system. (Can you Imagine a Sabbat methusulah
being scared of Sabbat threats???)
Ben