Rules clairification? (LSJ)

I have a rules question concerning the card text of the Aabbt kindred.and I apologise if this has already been covered. The card text states: Independent: Aabbt Kindred cannot peform (D) actions unless Nefertiti is ready. This is the line of text that I would like to have clarified. I seem to recall reading somewhere that (this must have been in an earlier version of the rule book, because I cannot find it in the Final Nights version) bleeding is an action that is by default a (D) action. If this is the case, obviously the Aabbt are almost completley useless with out Nef, which will irritate the hell out of me, but clarity is a good thing. Thanks Pc.

>I seem to recall reading somewhere that (this must have been in an >earlier version of the rule book, because I cannot find it in the >Final Nights version) bleeding is an action that is by default a (D) >action. Can't find the reference but bleeding is always a (D) action. >If this is the case, obviously the Aabbt are almost completley useless >with out Nef, which will irritate the hell out of me, but clarity is a >good thing. This has been discussed in several other Aabt threads but they are NOT useless. They can still perform non-directed actions, most notably political actions. And they have the presence to BO as well (hmmm...snakes with BO?). Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010628041452...@ng-fe1.aol.com... > >I seem to recall reading somewhere that (this must have been in an > >earlier version of the rule book, because I cannot find it in the > >Final Nights version) bleeding is an action that is by default a (D) > >action. > > Can't find the reference but bleeding is always a (D) action. 6.2.2. Resolve Any Block Attempts Who May Attempt to Block: If the action targets another Methuselah (or something controlled by another Methuselah), then the action is called directed [clip] Whenever people ask questions about actions and whether they're (D) actions or not, I always tell them to replace "(D)" with the above. Q: Is bleeding a (D) action? Revised Question: Is bleeding *an action targeting another Methuselah (or something controlled by another Metheselah)*? Q: Is a 5th tradition on someone else's vampire a (D) action? Revised Question: Is a 5th Tradition on someone else's vampire *an action targeting another Methuselah (or something controlled by another Metheselah)*? When you insert the rulebook text in place of the (D) in the questions, the answers become much more obvious. -Robert

"Robert Goudie" <rrgo...@earthlink.net> > Q: Is a 5th tradition on someone else's vampire a (D) action? > Revised Question: Is a 5th Tradition on someone else's vampire *an action > targeting another Methuselah (or something controlled by another Metheselah)*? I admit i have been stupid on this one, Robert, 'cause when your own play playgroup used this card as an undirected action for years, only the rulemonger can make you change your mind. We also made a parallel with Sixth tradition, destruction = you effectively target a vampire, so all right, +1 stealth D action =) However, thank you for your patience on this one. reyda

In message <20010628041452...@ng-fe1.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> writes >>I seem to recall reading somewhere that (this must have been in an >>earlier version of the rule book, because I cannot find it in the >>Final Nights version) bleeding is an action that is by default a (D) >>action. > >Can't find the reference but bleeding is always a (D) action. Bleeding targets another Methuselah and so falls under the definition in [6.2.2.1] Additionally, large numbers of bleed cards have the reminder (D) on them. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F "Analogies can be dangerous, Amanda," he begins, smiling B457CA213D7E6 slightly, "because the world is like a sandcastle..." 68C3695D623D5D

"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:9heqtm$bc6$1...@neon.noos.net... [clip] > I admit i have been stupid on this one, Robert, 'cause when your own play > playgroup used this card as an undirected action for years, only the > rulemonger can make you change your mind. I know how that is. I've been spouting that the "decision to decline to block is final" for years until I found out a couple of months ago that if you decline to block and then deflect and then the bleed is deflected back to you, you may again attempt to block. Anyway, even after all this time I'm still surprised once in a while. -Robert

[ quoted text not captured ] If you look also at the last (back page) of the rule book, near the bottom, it say bleeds are by default a D action. Raille

Sacha wrote: > The card text states: > Independent: Aabbt Kindred cannot peform (D) actions unless Nefertiti > is ready. > This is the line of text that I would like to have clarified. > > I seem to recall reading somewhere that (this must have been in an > earlier version of the rule book, because I cannot find it in the > Final Nights version) bleeding is an action that is by default a (D) > action. Yes. Actually, (D) is just short-hand for "directed". So Aabbt Kindred cannot perform directed actions unless Nef. is ready. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Actually, I just made a deck of Aabbt Kindred. 90 card library, 4 card limit with 9 Aabbt in the crypt, 2 Hesha, and 1 Nefertiti. After its first outing, everyone in my group is crying that the Aabbt are broken. I set the deck up to function without nefertiti, it was all intercept based. Aabbt Kindred + Atonement (not to mention their inherent damage prevention) was just horrid.

On 30 Jun 2001 06:38:47 -0700, webm...@spectrumdesigns.cc (OM) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] The Dear Abbies DO make good Atoners, as you actually have to spend resources to wear them down. I don't know if I'd call them broken, because: (a) no untap source other than FA (b) no intercept source other than equipment/news locations Not to mention that you MUST start slapping skill cards on them quickly, or they have to tap to block 5-caps... messy. They're a great adjunct to a Setite deck, but I'd never call them broken. =) -- Derek Maintenance: Keep the balls dry and clean and prevent them from violent collisions. Disclaimer: We make no claim that use of these balls will improve health.

OM wrote: > > Actually, I just made a deck of Aabbt Kindred. 90 card library, 4 card > limit with 9 Aabbt in the crypt, 2 Hesha, and 1 Nefertiti. After its If you can use 9 copies of a single card in your deck, then the deck is not a 4-card-limit deck, IMO. Of course, 4CL is just a house rule, so maybe your version differs from the obvious definition. [ quoted text not captured ]

> The Dear Abbies DO make good Atoners, as you actually have to spend > resources to wear them down. I don't know if I'd call them broken, > because: > > (a) no untap source other than FA > (b) no intercept source other than equipment/news locations Sorry, what do you mean by no untap source other than FA??? The Aabbt don't have the same untap weakness that the Fida'i do - unless I've really missed something, they untap as normal. I just use atonement to make them a really annoying intercept deck. > Not to mention that you MUST start slapping skill cards on them > quickly, or they have to tap to block 5-caps... messy. I hadn't started doing this yet, however, the newer version of this deck has skill cards and flak jackets, along with Heart of Darkness to make them just downright sick. :) OM

On 2 Jul 2001 06:38:01 -0700, webm...@spectrumdesigns.cc (OM) wrote: >> The Dear Abbies DO make good Atoners, as you actually have to spend >> resources to wear them down. I don't know if I'd call them broken, >> because: >> >> (a) no untap source other than FA >> (b) no intercept source other than equipment/news locations > >Sorry, what do you mean by no untap source other than FA??? The Aabbt >don't have the same untap weakness that the Fida'i do - unless I've >really missed something, they untap as normal. I just use atonement >to make them a really annoying intercept deck. They can't untap except by using Forced Awakening -- ie no Animalism untaps like Cat's Guidance (which can double as intercept later), no free "untap and ignore" versions like Guard Dogs/Rat's Warning. Also, they can't get a Homunculus for the free untaps. >> Not to mention that you MUST start slapping skill cards on them >> quickly, or they have to tap to block 5-caps... messy. > >I hadn't started doing this yet, however, the newer version of this >deck has skill cards and flak jackets, along with Heart of Darkness to >make them just downright sick. :) HoD seems a bit of a waste on these guys - they aren't big enough to take the damage even if it's normal. =/ I'd be more inclined to use HoD on, say, Suhailah, who can get a Masochism beforehand. Once she has the Masochism, she can get a Heart of Darkness while Daring the Dawn and take one point of normal, which goes on as a Masochism counter. After that, all her Dominate bleed actions are at Dawn, generating more Masochism counters which can be used to, well, pay for the Dominate bleed actions. =) Restoration as necessary, although you probably won't need TOO much of it. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

paul...@hotmail.com (Sacha) wrote in message news:<818c06e0.01062...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Have you tried building a rush deck with them? I mean, throw a couple of Haven Uncovered down and with some Brass Knuckles your crew of Aabbt can kick some serious butt. Especially with some Serpentis skill cards and some Skin of the Adder, right? Just a thought - just because they have Presence does not mean bleeding is the only thing these guys are good for. Good luck, David Anderson-Dávila Creator of the Elder Library Deck Builder

[ quoted text not captured ] However Bum's rush and Ambush are both D actions and Aabbt can not perform those until Nefertitit is in play Raille

On Mon, 02 Jul 2001 15:44:20 -0400, Raille <rai...@mich.com> wrote: >David Anderson-Dávila wrote: >> >> paul...@hotmail.com (Sacha) wrote in message news:<818c06e0.01062...@posting.google.com>... >> > If this is the case, obviously the Aabbt are almost completley useless >> > with out Nef, which will irritate the hell out of me, but clarity is a >> > good thing. >> >> Have you tried building a rush deck with them? I mean, throw a couple >> of Haven Uncovered down and with some Brass Knuckles your crew of >> Aabbt can kick some serious butt. Especially with some Serpentis skill >> cards and some Skin of the Adder, right? >> >However Bum's rush and Ambush are both D actions and Aabbt can not >perform those until Nefertitit is in play Summon the Serpent. Five in a deck. Get Nefertiti with the first one, and you have 4 of her in the crypt so you have good odds of getting her in your uncontrolled ANYWAY. Get another Dear Abby with all the rest, preferably when you have no Dear Abbies in the uncontrolled region. Extra crunchy! Blood Dolls as appropriate, and Nefertiti will contribute all her blood back throughout the game, of course. If she gets punched in the skull or something, all the Dear Abbies take nothing but the "rescue Nefertitties" non-(D) action until she's ready again, and then the slaughter continues. She can play Covenant of Blud!, too, although you wouldn't want THAT many in a deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

> If you can use 9 copies of a single card in your deck, then the deck is > not a 4-card-limit deck, IMO. Of course, 4CL is just a house rule, so > maybe your version differs from the obvious definition. Scary thing is, I never thought of that...I've always assumed our 4 card limit was on the Library. Before non-unique vampires existed everyone probably would have allowed more than 4 of a card in a crypt because it would be near suicide. Thanks for bringing this to my attention before my group begins a war :) OM

> HoD seems a bit of a waste on these guys - they aren't big enough to > take the damage even if it's normal. =/ > > I'd be more inclined to use HoD on, say, Suhailah, who can get a > Masochism beforehand. Once she has the Masochism, she can get a Heart > of Darkness while Daring the Dawn and take one point of normal, which > goes on as a Masochism counter. After that, all her Dominate bleed > actions are at Dawn, generating more Masochism counters which can be > used to, well, pay for the Dominate bleed actions. =) Restoration as > necessary, although you probably won't need TOO much of it. =) > > -- Derek Well the HoD I would play at superior (after using a Serpentis on them), so as to prevent another damage per combat. That, along with a Flak and their inherent damage prevention ability could be really nasty. The Atonement I think is what makes the Aabbt really shine however. Not to mention a sick part of me finds Setites atoning to be comical. The whole night I kept telling everyone to just leave the poor snakes alone because we were nice guys, sorry for our past misdeeds, and turning over a new leaf :) OM

In message <a757ead4.01070...@posting.google.com>, OM <webm...@spectrumdesigns.cc> writes >Before non-unique vampires existed >everyone probably would have allowed more than 4 of a card in a crypt >because it would be near suicide. Gosh. If people in xCL play groups consider more than 4 of a vampire in a crypt to be near suicide, it really does say something about the way their game significantly differs. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Have you tried building a rush deck with them? I mean, throw a couple > of Haven Uncovered down and with some Brass Knuckles your crew of > Aabbt can kick some serious butt. Especially with some Serpentis skill > cards and some Skin of the Adder, right? > > Just a thought - just because they have Presence does not mean > bleeding is the only thing these guys are good for. > > Good luck, > > David Anderson-Dávila > Creator of the Elder Library Deck Builder The most recent incarnation of the deck is fortitude/Pres (vote like hell) With a sprinkling of serp (to keep it fun). The last incarnation was Nef dependent (and was torn to peices by a Lasombra c-bat dect). My next effort with these guys will be a Rush (kiss o' Ra ) Deck. In theory it will be quite do able. Has anyone else come up with neat Aabot stratagies yet? LMK. Pc.