(LSJ) Determine + Vigilance

Hello, Can a tapped Imbued use Vigilance (reaction) to untap and play Determine as is his predator plays Bum's Rush? -- Vigilance Cardtype: Power Virtue: Judgment [ACTION MODIFIER] Only usable at the end of a successful action (after resolving the action). Untap this imbued. [REACTION] [1 CONVICTION] ={Only usable by a tapped imbued.}= Untap this imbued. Name: Determine Cardtype: Reaction Cost: 1 Conviction Virtue: Vision Play when a monster controlled by your predator is bleeding you, - {after blocks are declined}-. Tap this reacting imbued. The monster is now bleeding your predator's predator. Or play when a monster controlled by your predator or prey plays an action card. Tap this reacting imbued and cancel that action card as it is played (no cost is paid, and the monster doesn't tap). That monster cannot play the same action card again this turn.

[ quoted text not captured ] No i dont think so, determine states that you can tap the reacting imbued and cancel that action card as it is player, so you are "bond" to what ever cards you have on your hand and are "bond" to the state of your minions. If you untap him through vigilance when you try to cancel the Bum's Rush, it is no longer as it is played. Ricardo Marta Prince of Lisboa Portugal

floppyzedolfin wrote: > Hello, > Can a tapped Imbued use Vigilance (reaction) to untap and play > Determine as is his predator plays Bum's Rush? No. Vigilance's effect is not an "as some card is played" effect. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] > > monster cannot play the same action card again this turn.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - By using Vigilance you're effectively stating that the action has begun for you. If you Determine the action, then it never begins. So you can't "say it has begun" with Vigilance and then "say it never began" with Determine.

[ quoted text not captured ] But you could with Wake. So that's not the argument.

[ quoted text not captured ] > But you could with Wake. So that's not the argument.- Dölj citerad text - > > - Visa citerad text - Then I don't understand the ruling above, why is it not possible with vigilance, but possible with wake?

Smurf...@gmail.com wrote: > Then I don't understand the ruling above, why is it not possible with > vigilance, but possible with wake? Presence or absence of "may play reaction cards as if untapped" effect. Cards with such effect can be played in the "as played" window. Other cards cannot be (unless they have explicit text to do so).

On May 5, 2:07 pm, Smurfal...@gmail.com wrote: > why is it not possible with > vigilance, but possible with wake? Because Wake with Evening's Freshness is a "Wake" card, whereas Vigiliance is not. Till now, "Wake" cards have the "[this minion may play reaction cards] as though untapped" cardtext.

On 5 Maj, 14:16, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Ah, so the "as played" window doesn't last until the reaction card is fully resolved? Another question, how would the ruling be when untapping with Angel of Berlin, as to avoid a shouting contest on who declares first? Would there have to be a "soft" ruling on how the play was intended by the players? Angel of Berlin, Master, Imbued, C , [NoR] Master: out-of-turn. Requires a ready imbued. Untap an imbued, or equip a ready imbued you control with an equipment from your hand (requirements must be met; pay cost as normal). Not usable during combat.

Smurf...@gmail.com wrote: > On 5 Maj, 14:16, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> Smurfal...@gmail.com wrote: >>> Then I don't understand the ruling above, why is it not possible with >>> vigilance, but possible with wake? >> Presence or absence of "may play reaction cards as if untapped" effect. >> >> Cards with such effect can be played in the "as played" window. >> Other cards cannot be (unless they have explicit text to do so). > > Ah, so the "as played" window doesn't last until the reaction card is > fully resolved? A card must be played (and not canceled) in order to resolve. > Another question, how would the ruling be when untapping with Angel of > Berlin, as to avoid a shouting contest on who declares first? Would > there have to be a "soft" ruling on how the play was intended by the > players? When seeking to avoid a shouting contest, use the sequencing rules. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec1_6_1

[ quoted text not captured ] LSJ: #1 If a card is still "as it is played" until is resolves, what occurs with actions and action modifiers? Does the window of "as it is played" extend all the way to block success/failure or does it end as soon as a block attempt is declared? #2 Are "Only usable when declaring an action" effects (such as Club Illusion) also cancelled if the action card declared is cancelled? For example: Gideon Fontaine the Anarch bleeds with Undue Influence @ pre and as part of declaring the action burns a blood for Club Illusion, therefore declaring the action as a bleed action with 0 stealth, targeting uncontrolled minion X for a total bleed of 2. The Methuselah targeted by the bleed plays Direct Intervention to cancel the Undue Influence. Does Gideon regain the blood he burned to use Club Illusion since the bleed action he declared has been cancelled?

On May 5, 7:57 pm, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote: > LSJ: > > #1 If a card is still "as it is played" until is resolves, what occurs > with actions and action modifiers? Does the window of "as it is > played" extend all the way to block success/failure or does it end as > soon as a block attempt is declared? Action Cards are an exception to the rule that cards resolve as played. They resolve as per the rules on actions resolving, but the "as played" window is only as played. Modifiers resolve as played. > #2 Are "Only usable when declaring an action" effects (such as Club > Illusion) also cancelled if the action card declared is cancelled? Not as such. They simply can't be used until all players have passed on cancelling the action card (or using other "as played" effects, if any). If someone speeds past an opponents chance to cancel the card, you rewind the game state and give them their chance. -witness1

[ quoted text not captured ] Witness: There really wasn't a lot of clarification there as to when the "as played" window closes for actions. There are a number of effects that must be played "as the action is declared" which is, as far as I can tell, the "as played" window. You play and declare actions simultaneously and therefore any action modifiers that must be played as an action is declared also arrive at this time. So there are three potential scenarios: #1 The action card is revealed/declared, the minion is tapped to attempt the action and all other Methuselahs now have an opportunity to cancel that action BEFORE any "as declared" effects are used. (Such as Club Illusion, Day Op @ for, The Grandest Trick, etc) #2 The action card is declared along with all other "as declared" effects (Club Illusion, Day Op @ for, et al) and now Methuselahs have an opportunity to cancel the action card "as played" before any Methuselah attempts to block the action. #3 The action card is declared along with all other "as declared" effects and Methuselahs have the opportunity to cancel the action card before the resolution of block attempts is completed. If the correct scenario is NOT #1, then the next question is: Do "as declared" action modifiers get cancelled along with the declared action? And if the cancelling card says "no cost is paid" or similar, do the costs of the action modifiers get cancelled/refunded?

On Tue, 5 May 2009 19:08:31 -0700 (PDT), Juggernaut1981 <brassc...@gmail.com> wrote: >There really wasn't a lot of clarification there as to when >the "as played" window closes for actions. The window closes immediately. No other cards can be played until that card is played. >There are a number of >effects that must be played "as the action is declared" which is, as >far as I can tell, the "as played" window. You play and declare >actions simultaneously and therefore any action modifiers that must be >played as an action is declared also arrive at this time. So there >are three potential scenarios: Nope. You play the card then declare the action. >#1 The action card is revealed/declared, the minion is tapped to >attempt the action and all other Methuselahs now have an opportunity >to cancel that action BEFORE any "as declared" effects are used. (Such >as Club Illusion, Day Op @ for, The Grandest Trick, etc) That would be fine here, yes. >#2 The action card is declared along with all other "as declared" >effects (Club Illusion, Day Op @ for, et al) and now Methuselahs have >an opportunity to cancel the action card "as played" before any >Methuselah attempts to block the action. That's fine here too. >#3 The action card is declared along with all other "as declared" >effects and Methuselahs have the opportunity to cancel the action card >before the resolution of block attempts is completed. Not this one at all. This one is entirely too late. >If the correct scenario is NOT #1, then the next question is: Do "as >declared" action modifiers get cancelled along with the declared >action? No. They are returned to hand/undone/untapped/unrevealed, etc. >And if the cancelling card says "no cost is paid" or similar, >do the costs of the action modifiers get cancelled/refunded? The action modifiers do not get played and any potential cost that might have been paid for them is not paid. Carpe noctem. The Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com Your best source of V:TES information. Now also selling boxes and individual cards.

On May 6, 4:08 am, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote: > There really wasn't a lot of clarification there as to when > the "as played" window closes for actions. The window closes when no one decides to cancel the card. > There are a number of > effects that must be played "as the action is declared" which is, as > far as I can tell, the "as played" window. You play and declare > actions simultaneously and therefore any action modifiers that must be > played as an action is declared also arrive at this time. So there > are three potential scenarios: No. "Action is declared" requires a "Card is played". Remember, you can play the Seduction you replaced from the Govern the Unaligned you played. > #1 The action card is revealed/declared, the minion is tapped to > attempt the action and all other Methuselahs now have an opportunity > to cancel that action BEFORE any "as declared" effects are used. (Such > as Club Illusion, Day Op @ for, The Grandest Trick, etc) Almost. Tapping comes after the cancelling part. The action card is played, terms are set, if any. If the action card is not cancelled, the acting minion taps. Then, you replace the action card. And finally, you can play or use any "As action is announced" cards or effects. And then, initiate the "Do you block" part. > #2 The action card is declared along with all other "as declared" > effects (Club Illusion, Day Op @ for, et al) and now Methuselahs have > an opportunity to cancel the action card "as played" before any > Methuselah attempts to block the action. No. > #3 The action card is declared along with all other "as declared" > effects and Methuselahs have the opportunity to cancel the action card > before the resolution of block attempts is completed. No. > If the correct scenario is NOT #1, then the next question is: Do "as > declared" action modifiers get cancelled along with the declared > action? And if the cancelling card says "no cost is paid" or similar, > do the costs of the action modifiers get cancelled/refunded? Moot.

floppyzedolfin <floppyz...@gmail.com> wrote: >The action card is played, terms are set, if any. If the action card >is not cancelled, the acting minion taps. Then, you replace the action >card. And finally, you can play or use any "As action is announced" >cards or effects. And then, initiate the "Do you block" part. You've rushed ahead to blocks too early. You can play a variety of other effects between "As action is announced" and "Do you block". The typical example is playing a bleed modifier or similar effect that you want to get in before someone declares a block attempt with a Blessing of Chaos minion. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

Juggernaut1981 wrote: > On May 5, 10:40 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> Smurfal...@gmail.com wrote: >>> On 5 Maj, 14:16, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >>>> Smurfal...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> Then I don't understand the ruling above, why is it not possible with >>>>> vigilance, but possible with wake? >>>> Presence or absence of "may play reaction cards as if untapped" effect.. >>>> Cards with such effect can be played in the "as played" window. >>>> Other cards cannot be (unless they have explicit text to do so). >>> Ah, so the "as played" window doesn't last until the reaction card is >>> fully resolved? >> A card must be played (and not canceled) in order to resolve. >> >>> Another question, how would the ruling be when untapping with Angel of >>> Berlin, as to avoid a shouting contest on who declares first? Would >>> there have to be a "soft" ruling on how the play was intended by the >>> players? >> When seeking to avoid a shouting contest, use the sequencing rules.http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec1_6_1 > > LSJ: > > #1 If a card is still "as it is played" until is resolves, This isn't the case, so the rest is moot. A card is "as played" until it is finished "as played". > #2 Are "Only usable when declaring an action" effects (such as Club > Illusion) also cancelled if the action card declared is cancelled? An action take with an action card follows this sequence: 1) Play the card (declaring what the action will be). ("as played" goes here). 2) If not canceled, tap the acting minion and begin the action ("as announced" goes here). 3) Perform the action (other stuff, including block attempts, go here). > For example: Gideon Fontaine the Anarch bleeds with Undue Influence @ > pre and as part of declaring the action burns a blood for Club > Illusion, therefore declaring the action as a bleed action with 0 > stealth, targeting uncontrolled minion X for a total bleed of 2. The > Methuselah targeted by the bleed plays Direct Intervention to cancel > the Undue Influence. Does Gideon regain the blood he burned to use > Club Illusion since the bleed action he declared has been cancelled? Gideon never burned the blood. DI was played when the Undue Influence was played, before using Club Illusion.

The Lasombra wrote: > On Tue, 5 May 2009 19:08:31 -0700 (PDT), Juggernaut1981 > <brassc...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> There really wasn't a lot of clarification there as to when >> the "as played" window closes for actions. > > The window closes immediately. No other cards can be played until > that card is played. > >> There are a number of >> effects that must be played "as the action is declared" which is, as >> far as I can tell, the "as played" window. You play and declare >> actions simultaneously and therefore any action modifiers that must be >> played as an action is declared also arrive at this time. So there >> are three potential scenarios: > > Nope. > You play the card then declare the action. Correct. When you play the card, you declare the card (which involves saying what the action will be -- declaring the action). But the effects used "as the action is declared" are not usable in the "as played" window -- causing this confusion. The declaration starts with the action card play and continues to the rest of the "as declared" stuff that happens after the action card is played (since that stuff cannot be played in the "as played" window). >> #1 The action card is revealed/declared, the minion is tapped to >> attempt the action and all other Methuselahs now have an opportunity >> to cancel that action BEFORE any "as declared" effects are used. (Such >> as Club Illusion, Day Op @ for, The Grandest Trick, etc) > > That would be fine here, yes. Correct, except that the acting minion doesn't tap until the action card is successfully played (not canceled). >> #2 The action card is declared along with all other "as declared" >> effects (Club Illusion, Day Op @ for, et al) and now Methuselahs have >> an opportunity to cancel the action card "as played" before any >> Methuselah attempts to block the action. > > That's fine here too. Canceling the action card "as it is played" must be done as it is played, before the later "as the action is declared" stuff, like Club Illusion and basic Day Operation. >> #3 The action card is declared along with all other "as declared" >> effects and Methuselahs have the opportunity to cancel the action card >> before the resolution of block attempts is completed. > > Not this one at all. > This one is entirely too late. Correct. >> If the correct scenario is NOT #1, then the next question is: Do "as >> declared" action modifiers get cancelled along with the declared >> action? > > No. > They are returned to hand/undone/untapped/unrevealed, etc. Correct by way of: they were never played from hand/done/tapped/revealed in the first place, and game state should be corrected to match that reality if the acting Methuselah skipped ahead of others' opportunity to play "as played" cards in her rush to play other "as declared" modifiers. >> And if the cancelling card says "no cost is paid" or similar, >> do the costs of the action modifiers get cancelled/refunded? > > The action modifiers do not get played and any potential cost that > might have been paid for them is not paid. Correct.

On May 6, 12:09 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > An action take with an action card follows this sequence: > > 1) Play the card (declaring what the action will be). ("as played" goes here). > 2) If not canceled, tap the acting minion and begin the action ("as announced" > goes here). > 3) Perform the action (other stuff, including block attempts, go here). > Some time ago I tried to write down "The complete sequence of playing cards in VtES": http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/f790ff2dfb490bde/fa412f05b750c099?#fa412f05b750c099