fame and vessel

Which goes off first during the untap phase: fame or vessel? Or does the player choose which one happens first.

On Mar 16, 4:17 pm, rokeisl...@yahoo.com wrote: > Which goes off first during the untap phase: fame or vessel? Or does > the player choose which one happens first. Iirc, the player chooses the order in which they resolve. So Vessel saves you from dying to fame-damage during untap.

<rokei...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:b555ca41-2927-4903...@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > Which goes off first during the untap phase: fame or vessel? Or does > the player choose which one happens first. The player chooses. This is yet another reason Vessel really changes the game (aside from burning Blood Dolls). Anarch Revolt/Fame/Antedeluvian Awakening/etc... damage can now be offset by first taking blood from a minion with vessel to pool. Rulebook, LotN edition, p16 4. UNTAP PHASE You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards. Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your cards. You may choose the order in which these effects take place.

On Mar 16, 10:44 am, "Vincent Crisafulli" <vac...@netcarrier.com> wrote: > Rulebook, LotN edition, p16 > > 4. UNTAP PHASE > You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your untap > phase, you must untap all of your cards. Any cards or effects that require > or allow you to do something during your untap phase take effect after you > have untapped your cards. You may choose the order in which these effects > take place. Just for clarity, if a card has text indicating it happens when a card untaps (Vampiric Disease for one) then its effect fires as soon as you untap the card, regardless of what else is going on in your untap phase - correct? In the case of Vampiric Disease, the Meth can choose when to untap the vampire - but as SOON as the Vampire untaps, the VD(!) card effects happen, right?

[ quoted text not captured ] The Meth doesn't get to choose when to untap the vampire in the untap phase. The Meth untaps all of her cards at the start. If the vampire with VD untaps, then he burns a blood at that time, as well.

[ quoted text not captured ] I'm not sure I fully understand. Are you saying that all cards "instantly" untap at the start of the untap phase? In other words there is no order to it, regardless of how the meth physically untaps the cards? If this is true, then it would seem that a card that has effects in the Untap Phase would be identical to a card that has untap effects printed on it. (I'm ignoring the obvious differences when NOT talking about the Untap phase!) I guess that I would have thought that since the Meth can choose the order of events within the untap phase, that it would also include choosing the order in which his/her cards untap. But instead it sounds like they all just untap magically and you start from there. The way I would have interpreted it (in the case of VD) would be that the blood burns off as a result of the card untapping - and *then* you could use a Vessel for example to put a blood back. Sort of as if the Untap phase actions are pre-empted for a moment due to the untap effects of that specific card - handle those actions, then return to the untap phase. Lol not sure that *I* am making sense now!

[ quoted text not captured ] I slightly mis-stated one item in my example. In regards to the Vessel example, I would have thought that during your untap phase you could use a Vessel and move a blood to the Vamp and then untap it - then take the VD effects. But if you happened to Untap it *before* moving a blood, you would be "technically" prohibited from moving the blood via Vessel before losing it via VD. The card untapping triggers the VD thus preventing you from using the Vessel first (unless you did it before untapping). I know I am beating this seemingly minor detail to death, but I have been beat over the head by OTHER details and this just seems like something I would have expected. And for it not to be deemed an important distinction confuses me a little. :)

> In regards to the Vessel example, I would have thought that during > your untap phase you could use a Vessel and move a blood to the Vamp > and then untap it - then take the VD effects. But if you happened to > Untap it *before* moving a blood, you would be "technically" > prohibited from moving the blood via Vessel before losing it via VD. > The card untapping triggers the VD thus preventing you from using the > Vessel first (unless you did it before untapping). In the Untap phase, the first thing that happens is that ALL cards untap. Then you go through untap phase effects (Vessels, Hunting Grounds, Fame, etc etc). The untap part of the untap phase occurs before you get to do anything else. --> J grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com

[ quoted text not captured ] But the meth does get to order which cards he untaps, right? So they could untap KRCG first, then Paul Cordwood, then Spirit Summoning Chamber, then Malgorzata with a VD, right? The cards don't all untap simultaneously (in effect). Or do they? I can't think of why this would matter, but there might be some current or future cards or effects that mean, say, 'while Benny Boy is untapped, Vampiric Disease counters do not have an effect' or something. In which case you might want to untap Benny Boy before other guys... -- salem (replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)

> The cards don't all untap simultaneously (in effect). > > Or do they? > > I can't think of why this would matter, but there might be some current > or future cards or effects that mean, say, 'while Benny Boy is untapped, > Vampiric Disease counters do not have an effect' or something. In which > case you might want to untap Benny Boy before other guys... From section 4 of the rulebook. "You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards (except your infernal cards, see section 11). Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your cards. You may choose the order in which these effects take place. Along with effects generated by cards, there are other effects that are resolved during the untap phase:" The only time order is mentioned is when it is dealing with cards or effects that require or allow you to do something during the untap phase, so going on this - the untap IMO is simultaneous. Of course, IANLSJ. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mar 18, 5:23 am, J <grai...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > The cards don't all untap simultaneously (in effect). I would consider it simultaneous, as as close to as to make no difference. You have to untap all your cards at the beginning of your turn (barring Infernalism and other card effects in play). There is nothing you can do before or during this stage. The closest thing would be cards you can play between turns, such as Angel of Berlin or untapping Masika. I can't see WW messing with this particular part of the game. > > Or do they? > > > I can't think of why this would matter, but there might be some current > > or future cards or effects that mean, say, 'while Benny Boy is untapped, > > Vampiric Disease counters do not have an effect' or something. In which > > case you might want to untap Benny Boy before other guys... Likely the effect would be written much like Bartholomew's ability: "If Benny Boy is untapped at the beginning of your turn, ..." Making untap order matter will probably bring about a bigger headache than the card effect is worth. Chris, Thrall of Arika

In message <8fdf76a8-a7e1-4577...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups .com>, Thrall of Arika <christoph...@amec.com> writes: >The closest thing >would be cards you can play between turns, such as Angel of Berlin or >untapping Masika. Masika doesn't untap between turns, he untaps in discard phases. This was changed in the Tenth Anniversary tins. Angel of Berlin can't be played between turns. They're played during "another player's turn" [1.6.2, Glossary]. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

On Mar 19, 12:18 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In message <8fdf76a8-a7e1-4577-a5f5-3a611975c...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups > .com>, Thrall of Arika <christopher.ack...@amec.com> writes: > > >The closest thing > >would be cards you can play between turns, such as Angel of Berlin or > >untapping Masika. > > Masika doesn't untap between turns, he untaps in discard phases. > This was changed in the Tenth Anniversary tins. > > Angel of Berlin can't be played between turns. They're played during > "another player's turn" [1.6.2, Glossary]. Fair enough, I haven't played Masika in a little while, and hadn't noticed his updated text. A good update, as between turns seemed a bit too limbo-ish to me. As for Angel, more from being used to having it used just as my turn is ending, thus seeming it was between my turn and the Imbued. Thanks for the clarifications! Chris, Thrall of Arika

In message <ff33d1e2-65d3-4856...@h11g2000prf.googlegroup s.com>, Thrall of Arika <christoph...@amec.com> writes: >As for Angel, more from being used to having it used just as my turn >is ending, thus seeming it was between my turn and the Imbued. Thanks >for the clarifications! Out of interest, why then and not in response to something else? The value of surprise and all that. Even if you're playing Determine - where you need to be untapped before the card is played, and can't play Angel in response to the card play - or want to threaten it, waiting until the end of the player's master phase seems a better idea typically. Am I missing something *really* obvious? [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mar 19, 2:08 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In message <ff33d1e2-65d3-4856-bd2d-b487bf17c...@h11g2000prf.googlegroup > s.com>, Thrall of Arika <christopher.ack...@amec.com> writes: > > >As for Angel, more from being used to having it used just as my turn > >is ending, thus seeming it was between my turn and the Imbued. Thanks > >for the clarifications! > > Out of interest, why then and not in response to something else? The > value of surprise and all that. > > Even if you're playing Determine - where you need to be untapped before > the card is played, and can't play Angel in response to the card play - > or want to threaten it, waiting until the end of the player's master > phase seems a better idea typically. > > Am I missing something *really* obvious? > The only master that I have in hand is Angel of Berlin, so I might as well equip with this piece of equipment in my hand now at the end of your turn??? You lose some surprise factor, but you cycle two cards and now have that piece of equipment if you want to use it during your minion phase. I don't see lots of Angel or Berlin or Imbued, so its just a guess. Later, ~Rehlow

[ quoted text not captured ] > ~Rehlow- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Pretty much ... the Imbued player may not have needed to use Angel to untap ... either having untapped minions, Vigilance, etc. Predator is discarding, why not play the master and get a weapon hassle free? Cycles two cards, and gets your minion equipped with something useful without needing to take an action and tapping. Though I'm not following your Determine example. If the Imbued is already untapped, they don't need to use Angel. If they are, they can Angel then Determine. I don't see any point at all in using it to untap at the end of master phase of the predator. What surprise factor is there then? I would save the Angel in case I need it during my predator's round, then if I wanted to get a weapon out but too much intercept is out there, use it at the end of their turn. Chris, Thrall of Arika