Question on contesteds and titles

Suppose I bring out Jing Wei, and then manage to make her Justicar of the Tremere (with Tremere Justicar, not Venture Justicar :)) Now someone else brings her out, and I eventually yield in the contest. Does the title stay with her under her new owner? J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> PGP keys by request Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.

J. Andrew Lipscomb (ew...@chattanooga.net) wrote: : Suppose I bring out Jing Wei, and then manage to make her Justicar of the : Tremere (with Tremere Justicar, not Venture Justicar :)) Now someone else : brings her out, and I eventually yield in the contest. Does the title : stay with her under her new owner? According to the rules of the game - no. All cards played on/titles accrued by a given vampire are lost when that vampire is yielded in a contest. HOWEVER... Our group felt that this made no sense: these are supposed to be the _same_ vampire, or else why are we contesting them? If I have Sammy out and have added the Dominate master skill card to him, why does he become younger and less skilled if someone else successfully wrests control of him from me? Along these lines then, we have instituted a house rule: any titles accrued by a vampire or Master Cards played on that vampire are transferred whole if the original vampire upon which the Masters/titles were played is contested and yielded. (Note: we also play that a player does _not_ take his cards with him when he leaves the game.) Makes things a bit more interesting in our estimation... "This isn't about answers. It's about questions. Having the right question will succeed every time; having the right answer will succeed only when the right question is asked. And how often does the universe ever ask the _right_ question of you?" -- David Gerrold, _The Middle of Nowhere_ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shane H.W. Travis | tra...@duke.usask.ca | Saskatoon, Saskatchewan

In article <4044e3$2...@tribune.usask.ca>, Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: >Along these lines then, we have instituted a house rule: any titles >accrued by a vampire or Master Cards played on that vampire are >transferred whole if the original vampire upon which the Masters/titles >were played is contested and yielded. (Note: we also play that a player >does _not_ take his cards with him when he leaves the game.) Makes things >a bit more interesting in our estimation... I've also considered this option, so I'll throw my two cents worth in. As the vampire becomes titled, skilled, what-have-you'ed, he also becomes more expensive in terms of influence. The simplest to deal with are the new skills. If Normal had Dominate printed on his card, he'd also be a '3' vampire, so if Normal gains Dominate, anyone else who wants to bring Normal out has to treat him as a '3'. Note that this can eventually affect things like Govern the Unaligned as well, since the more-and-more skilled vampire eventually ceases to be younger than the would-be Governor. Titles can also be deduced, but some of the special abilities may be difficult to gauge -- how much is Blood Doll worth? Do you get a credit for Society of Leopold or Gangrel De-Evolution? And along the lines of 'it's the same vampire' -- does the new vampire come out at full capacity, or at whatever capacity it was previously at before the contest started? If the original was in torpor, does the new copy begin in torpor too? This is why we aren't playing with this option yet :-) I do think it is more 'realistic' and therefore better, though, so I'd like to see a slick way to implement it. Hunter -- J. Hunter Johnson jhun...@io.com (Illuminati Online)

J. Hunter Johnson (jhun...@io.com) wrote: : In article <4044e3$2...@tribune.usask.ca>, : Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: : >Along these lines then, we have instituted a house rule: any titles : >accrued by a vampire or Master Cards played on that vampire are : >transferred whole if the original vampire upon which the Masters/titles : >were played is contested and yielded. : I've also considered this option, so I'll throw my two cents worth in. : As the vampire becomes titled, skilled, what-have-you'ed, he also becomes : more expensive in terms of influence. The simplest to deal with are the : new skills. If Normal had Dominate printed on his card, he'd also be a : '3' vampire, so if Normal gains Dominate, anyone else who wants to bring : Normal out has to treat him as a '3'. An interesting option, but as you say later it leads to complications figuring out what is worth what. Also, this scheme works well at the lower levels, but breaks down somewhat for the higher-cost vamps. (i.e. 1 additional skill != one additional blood cost) : And along the lines of 'it's the same vampire' -- does the new vampire : come out at full capacity, or at whatever capacity it was previously at : before the contest started? If the original was in torpor, does the new : copy begin in torpor too? We did talk about this, and have come up with 'real-world' explanations.... The new vampire is at full capacity and not in torpor, just like usual: this represents the 'influence' process of the new Meth. New resources/blood are being offered to the vampire in an effort to get him to change sides, and eventually one of three things will happen: - The original Meth will lose interest in the vampire, and/or decide that he cannot afford to match the bribes/divide his attention (and concede) - The original Meth will have his hooks into the vampire so deeply that the vampire will refuse the bribes (and the new copy's Meth will concede) - One of the Meths will be ousted, and thw point will be moot. :-) : This is why we aren't playing with this option yet :-) I do think it : is more 'realistic' and therefore better, though, so I'd like to see : a slick way to implement it. So far, we have had few problems with it. It provides another level of 'reality' to the game, and also provides another layer of strategy (should I bring out my 3 pointer to contest his three pointer, knowing that he has three masters invested and will fight harder to keep it?) Also note that we do not allow contesting with self, so that whole problem with weenie decks is gone..., :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <40dkce$9...@tribune.usask.ca>, tra...@duke.usask.ca (Shane Travis) wrote: > An interesting option, but as you say later it leads to complications > figuring out what is worth what. Also, this scheme works well at the > lower levels, but breaks down somewhat for the higher-cost vamps. (i.e. 1 > additional skill != one additional blood cost) Sort of, but remember that the skill card also raises (to return to my original example) Jing Wei's capacity to 4, so there's no need to guess at that point. As for the value of titles, there doesn't seem to be any in my main crypt (the real Tremere Justicar and Prince of Dallas have dead-on formula capacity, and Basilia's 1 over comes from her aggravated hand more likely than her single vote). [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <40dkce$9...@tribune.usask.ca>, Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: >J. Hunter Johnson (jhun...@io.com) wrote: >: In article <4044e3$2...@tribune.usask.ca>, >: Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: >: >Along these lines then, we have instituted a house rule: any titles >: >accrued by a vampire or Master Cards played on that vampire are >: >transferred whole if the original vampire upon which the Masters/titles >: >were played is contested and yielded. > >: I've also considered this option, so I'll throw my two cents worth in. >: As the vampire becomes titled, skilled, what-have-you'ed, he also becomes >: more expensive in terms of influence. The simplest to deal with are the >: new skills. If Normal had Dominate printed on his card, he'd also be a >: '3' vampire, so if Normal gains Dominate, anyone else who wants to bring >: Normal out has to treat him as a '3'. > >An interesting option, but as you say later it leads to complications >figuring out what is worth what. Also, this scheme works well at the >lower levels, but breaks down somewhat for the higher-cost vamps. (i.e. 1 >additional skill != one additional blood cost) But one additional skill and one additional blood capacity (as provided by all current skill cards) is undeniably worth additional blood cost, regardless of the vampire's initial age. -- ----- L. Scott Johnson (lsc...@crl.com) | The opinions expressed are mine Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger | and subject to card text

On 9 Aug 1995, J. Hunter Johnson wrote: > In article <4044e3$2...@tribune.usask.ca>, > Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: > >Along these lines then, we have instituted a house rule: any titles > >accrued by a vampire or Master Cards played on that vampire are > >transferred whole if the original vampire upon which the Masters/titles > >were played is contested and yielded. (Note: we also play that a player > >does _not_ take his cards with him when he leaves the game.) Makes things > >a bit more interesting in our estimation... > > I've also considered this option, so I'll throw my two cents worth in. > As the vampire becomes titled, skilled, what-have-you'ed, he also becomes > more expensive in terms of influence. The simplest to deal with are the > new skills. If Normal had Dominate printed on his card, he'd also be a > '3' vampire, so if Normal gains Dominate, anyone else who wants to bring > Normal out has to treat him as a '3'. Note that this can eventually > affect things like Govern the Unaligned as well, since the more-and-more > skilled vampire eventually ceases to be younger than the would-be Governor. > > Titles can also be deduced, but some of the special abilities may be > difficult to gauge -- how much is Blood Doll worth? Do you get a credit > for Society of Leopold or Gangrel De-Evolution? > > And along the lines of 'it's the same vampire' -- does the new vampire > come out at full capacity, or at whatever capacity it was previously at > before the contest started? If the original was in torpor, does the new > copy begin in torpor too? > > This is why we aren't playing with this option yet :-) I do think it > is more 'realistic' and therefore better, though, so I'd like to see > a slick way to implement it. > We have implemented a similar house rule but not as detailed as that mentioned above. Contested cards remain active even while contested. If one Methusalah plays say a chainsaw on a contested vamp then the other methusalah may utilize this weapon, or retainer if a retainer has been played. Also any damage dealt to one must be dealt to the other. If one is torporized, so is the other. If one Methusalah rescues the vamp from torpor the other Methusalah benefits. This also raises some problems. Should the Methusalah who does something for the vamp receive any credit at the time of making the maintenance payment? The logic being: Wow he rescued me from torpor maybe I should pay more attention to this guy. It is my opinion that no credit for actions such as this should be given as the vamp would be out for themself first and foremost. In the example given above,it seems to me to make the most sense to not credit or debit cards played on a previously controlled vamp which did not affect the blood capacity. Some examples to support this are: Lydia Van Cuelan, +1 bleed; Merill Molitor, change 1 aggravated damage to normal each combat; and Dancin' Dana, 2 hand damage. These vamps all have special skills at the outset. Also when Dr. John Casey is considered, blood capacity of 3 with only 2 non-superior disciplines and no special skills, no correlation can be reached between blood capacity and special skills. Therefore no credit should be given in these examples. APN

In article <40al19$7...@pentagon.io.com>, jhun...@io.com (J. Hunter Johnson) writes: > In article <4044e3$2...@tribune.usask.ca>, > Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: > >Along these lines then, we have instituted a house rule: any titles > >accrued by a vampire or Master Cards played on that vampire are > >transferred whole if the original vampire upon which the Masters/titles > >were played is contested and yielded. (Note: we also play that a player > >does _not_ take his cards with him when he leaves the game.) Makes things > >a bit more interesting in our estimation... > > I've also considered this option, so I'll throw my two cents worth in. > As the vampire becomes titled, skilled, what-have-you'ed, he also becomes > more expensive in terms of influence. The simplest to deal with are the > new skills. If Normal had Dominate printed on his card, he'd also be a > '3' vampire, so if Normal gains Dominate, anyone else who wants to bring > Normal out has to treat him as a '3'. Note that this can eventually > affect things like Govern the Unaligned as well, since the more-and-more > skilled vampire eventually ceases to be younger than the would-be Governor. > > Titles can also be deduced, but some of the special abilities may be > difficult to gauge -- how much is Blood Doll worth? Do you get a credit > for Society of Leopold or Gangrel De-Evolution? > Um.... Blood Doll would not carry over. It is someone else's Blood Doll, and I don't think that it should move. No, I do not think that you should get any credit, or any nega-credit for bad cards on it. > And along the lines of 'it's the same vampire' -- does the new vampire > come out at full capacity, or at whatever capacity it was previously at > before the contest started? If the original was in torpor, does the new > copy begin in torpor too? > This is pretty simple, just allow the victor of the challenge to pick which Vampire they would rather have. After all, if Normal disapeered for 2 weeks, and came back with a new jacket and a different religion, who's to say it's the same guy? > This is why we aren't playing with this option yet :-) I do think it > is more 'realistic' and therefore better, though, so I'd like to see > a slick way to implement it. > My reaction would be to stick all the cards on the contested pile, and the winner gets all the cards. I would force people to pay for the skill cards they get, but all the other stuff should be free. The question that I have is: If a contested Vampire has a Title, and gets contested, shouldn't both Vampires take damage as long as the contesting goes on? > Hunter > -- > J. Hunter Johnson > jhun...@io.com (Illuminati Online) Ritaxis

In article <DDA55...@cruzio.com>, <rit...@cruzio.com> wrote: > The question that I have is: If a contested Vampire has a Title, and >gets contested, shouldn't both Vampires take damage as long as the contesting >goes on? > Both vampires suffer 1 blood point during it's methuselah's turn when both are contesting. That's why it's an advantage to have the real prince instead of having a younger vamp when contesting. Of course, there are exceptions when you have vamps like Masika taking over the title Prince of Miami...*grin* ---jAMES---

rit...@cruzio.com wrote: : Um.... Blood Doll would not carry over. It is someone else's Blood : Doll, and I don't think that it should move. Yes - forgot to mention that this is the one Master card that doesn't carry over, : The question that I have is: If a contested Vampire has a Title, and : gets contested, shouldn't both Vampires take damage as long as the contesting : goes on? Interesting question - one which has never come up in our group as we have few praxis seziures or ______ Justicar cards. Instinctive reaction would be that if one is asserting that the vampires are indeed the same, they _would_ have to both take damage intil the title is yielded. This begs the question, however: who decides whether or not to yield the title? The vampire is out of play, so neither Meth has control over it at this point to be able to _make_ the decision to yield the title... [ quoted text not captured ]

rit...@cruzio.com writes: >In article <40al19$7...@pentagon.io.com>, jhun...@io.com (J. Hunter Johnson) writes: >> In article <4044e3$2...@tribune.usask.ca>, >> Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: >> >Along these lines then, we have instituted a house rule: any titles >> >accrued by a vampire or Master Cards played on that vampire are >> >transferred whole if the original vampire upon which the Masters/titles >> >were played is contested and yielded. (Note: we also play that a player >> >does _not_ take his cards with him when he leaves the game.) Makes things >> >a bit more interesting in our estimation... >> jhun...@io.com (Illuminati Online) Tranferring cards after a yield makes no sense to me in that any skills or titles or equipment that a vamp gets after controlling should very much be associated with the Meth who controls him. So if I as a Meth play Dominate on a vamp, then I have given that vamp the superior power as part of my power and it is requisite that the vamp work for me however, when a vamp is stolen, by malkavian annoyances or from torpor then a cout-de-tat (spelling anyone) of sorts has been arranged and they can take their skills with them. Just my $0.02. but think of all the complications incurred. Stu >Ritaxis -- This is the official account of the Let's Try This Player's, DramaTech's Own Improvisational Comedy Troupe. Performing random acts of spontaneity at MaTech We are dedicated to the discovery of theraputic humor through spontaneous characterization and organized Chaos. We do not underestimate uses of Duck Tape

>: Um.... Blood Doll would not carry over. It is someone else's Blood >: Doll, and I don't think that it should move. > >Yes - forgot to mention that this is the one Master card that doesn't >carry over, > This is an example of my main argument against tranferring titles, etc to yielded vamps. I think of the title or skill card as being given to the vampire through the influence of the controlling Methuselah. If a vampire were to be yeilded, he is in a sense betraying the original Methuselah. I like to think that any gifts given to the vampire would be taken away. "Fine, you can leave me, but I strip you of the title I gave you, and recall your gift of thaumaturgy!" or something like that. Dig?

rit...@cruzio.com writes: >> Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: >> >Along these lines then, we have instituted a house rule: any titles >> >accrued by a vampire or Master Cards played on that vampire are >> >transferred whole if the original vampire upon which the Masters/titles >> >were played is contested and yielded. (Note: we also play that a player >> >does _not_ take his cards with him when he leaves the game.) Makes things >> >a bit more interesting in our estimation... <bobbit> >> Titles can also be deduced, but some of the special abilities may be >> difficult to gauge -- how much is Blood Doll worth? Do you get a credit >> for Society of Leopold or Gangrel De-Evolution? > Um.... Blood Doll would not carry over. It is someone else's Blood >Doll, and I don't think that it should move. No, I do not think that you >should get any credit, or any nega-credit for bad cards on it. Assuming anything carries over after a contest: Blood Doll *does* carry over (cf. moving a blood doll via Malk Dementia or Grave Robbing): ----- Subject: Revised Jyhad FAQ: 4/18/95 version Date: 18 Apr 1995 23:01:44 GMT Q: My opponent gains control of one of my vampires with Blood Doll played upon it. Do I get the blood, or does my opponent? A: Your opponent now gets the blood from the Blood Doll. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text. Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger. |

In article <1995081411...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>, IZZ...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (pete) wrote: > This is an example of my main argument against tranferring titles, etc > to yielded vamps. I think of the title or skill card as being given > to the vampire through the influence of the controlling Methuselah. If > a vampire were to be yeilded, he is in a sense betraying the original > Methuselah. I like to think that any gifts given to the vampire would > be taken away. "Fine, you can leave me, but I strip you of the title > I gave you, and recall your gift of thaumaturgy!" or something like > that. Dig? For equipment, that makes sense. But for titles and disciplines, it's not so simple; if the title was given by a vote (as must be the case in the circumstances at hand), that was not the Methuselah alone who did it. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <1995081411...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>, pete <IZZ...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU> wrote: >>: Um.... Blood Doll would not carry over. It is someone else's Blood >>: Doll, and I don't think that it should move. >> >>Yes - forgot to mention that this is the one Master card that doesn't >>carry over, >> >This is an example of my main argument against tranferring titles, etc >to yielded vamps. I think of the title or skill card as being given >to the vampire through the influence of the controlling Methuselah. If >a vampire were to be yeilded, he is in a sense betraying the original >Methuselah. I like to think that any gifts given to the vampire would >be taken away. "Fine, you can leave me, but I strip you of the title >I gave you, and recall your gift of thaumaturgy!" or something like >that. Dig? Yes, I personally think contesting should NOT include transferring anything else but that contested thing only (title or weapon or master or location etc). It really sucks to have everything transferred. It took a while to build up what you have, and then you see a minor vamp taking over and your assets??? Come on, this is Jyhad, where traditions and respect take place. You don't just take over with little winnie vampires. Why are they primogens, princes and justicars? Because they earned it, EARNED it I say. Otherwise, all older vamps are very unpopular. For first, it took them so long to be controlled;second, why waste your time when all you can do is have younger vampires electing themselves princes and justicars?? If the contesting and transferring everything is a standard rule, I hope someone can explain to me all the reasons why another vampire should get everything the other vampire had, and don't give me bs and not focus on what this game is called and based on. Respect, damn it, respect (Boy, do I sound like a ventrue...) ---jAMES---

In article <ewwa-14089...@portb19.chattanooga.net>, J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net> wrote: >For equipment, that makes sense. But for titles and disciplines, it's not >so simple; if the title was given by a vote (as must be the case in the >circumstances at hand), that was not the Methuselah alone who did it. Of course. The title stays. The vamp who won the contest EARNED his/her title. Everything else goes. DOesn't matter the vote. If he/she won the title through a vote, he/she EARNED it. Therefore it stays. In the rule book, it stated: WHen yielding, the vampire card is not burned, it merely loses its title. Burn the title if it was added to the vampire by another card;otherwise, make a note of it. It never mentioned about the equipment and masters on the original vampire, so that means they don't count unless specified otherwise. I don't have the bible, so if there's any correction other than this, please forgive me. As for equipment and such, I don't seem to find them in the small rule book, but I'm assuming all unique item/creature should be the same way. ---jAMES---

In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.950812...@engr.engr.uark.edu>, WOOLDRIDGE JOHN DAVID <jd...@engr.engr.uark.edu> writes: > > > On 9 Aug 1995, J. Hunter Johnson wrote: > > > In article <4044e3$2...@tribune.usask.ca>, > > Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: > > >Along these lines then, we have instituted a house rule: any titles > > >accrued by a vampire or Master Cards played on that vampire are > > >transferred whole if the original vampire upon which the Masters/titles > > >were played is contested and yielded. (Note: we also play that a player > > >does _not_ take his cards with him when he leaves the game.) Makes things > > >a bit more interesting in our estimation... > > > > I've also considered this option, so I'll throw my two cents worth in. > > As the vampire becomes titled, skilled, what-have-you'ed, he also becomes > > more expensive in terms of influence. The simplest to deal with are the > > new skills. If Normal had Dominate printed on his card, he'd also be a > > '3' vampire, so if Normal gains Dominate, anyone else who wants to bring > > Normal out has to treat him as a '3'. Note that this can eventually > > affect things like Govern the Unaligned as well, since the more-and-more > > skilled vampire eventually ceases to be younger than the would-be Governor. > > > > Titles can also be deduced, but some of the special abilities may be > > difficult to gauge -- how much is Blood Doll worth? Do you get a credit > > for Society of Leopold or Gangrel De-Evolution? > > > > And along the lines of 'it's the same vampire' -- does the new vampire > > come out at full capacity, or at whatever capacity it was previously at > > before the contest started? If the original was in torpor, does the new > > copy begin in torpor too? > > > > This is why we aren't playing with this option yet :-) I do think it > > is more 'realistic' and therefore better, though, so I'd like to see > > a slick way to implement it. > > > > We have implemented a similar house rule but not as detailed as that > mentioned above. Contested cards remain active even while contested. If > one Methusalah plays say a chainsaw on a contested vamp then the other > methusalah may utilize this weapon, or retainer if a retainer has been > played. Also any damage dealt to one must be dealt to the other. If one > is torporized, so is the other. If one Methusalah rescues the vamp from > torpor the other Methusalah benefits. > > This also raises some problems. Should the Methusalah who does something > for the vamp receive any credit at the time of making the maintenance > payment? The logic being: Wow he rescued me from torpor maybe I should > pay more attention to this guy. > > It is my opinion that no credit for actions such as this should be given > as the vamp would be out for themself first and foremost. In the example > given above,it seems to me to make the most sense to not credit or debit > cards played on a previously controlled vamp which did not affect the > blood capacity. Some examples to support this are: Lydia Van Cuelan, +1 > bleed; Merill Molitor, change 1 aggravated damage to normal each combat; > and Dancin' Dana, 2 hand damage. These vamps all have special skills at > the outset. Also when Dr. John Casey is considered, blood capacity of 3 > with only 2 non-superior disciplines and no special skills, no > correlation can be reached between blood capacity and special skills. > Therefore no credit should be given in these examples. > > APN That is totally, completely, untrue. The formula goes: 1 skill for every blood capacity -1 skill if the vampire is capacity 4 or less +1 skill if the vampire is capacity 9 or more (hence, Vampires who take more turns to bring out, get a bonus) 2 Hand Damage is worth 2 skills Prince of X is worth 2 Skills Primogen is worth 1 Skill +1 Bleed is worth 2 Skills Various powers and disadvantages have various cost totals assigned to them. In addition, some Vampires (Anvil, for example) get 1 or 2 "bonus" Skill points to spend, the equivalent of Magic's Black Knight and Phantom Monster. Ritaxis

In article <40mm7f$c...@agate.berkeley.edu>, je...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (jAMES e. lIN) writes: > In article <DDA55...@cruzio.com>, <rit...@cruzio.com> wrote: > > > The question that I have is: If a contested Vampire has a Title, and > >gets contested, shouldn't both Vampires take damage as long as the contesting > >goes on? > > > Both vampires suffer 1 blood point during it's methuselah's turn when both are > contesting. That's why it's an advantage to have the real prince instead of > having a younger vamp when contesting. Of course, there are exceptions when you > have vamps like Masika taking over the title Prince of Miami...*grin* > > ---jAMES--- Yes, that is in the rules. But I was referring to the idea of having titles carry over from contested vampires. In that instance, any Vampire with a title would be contesting its title with itself while it was being contested.... Ritaxis

In article <ewwa-14089...@portb19.chattanooga.net>, ew...@chattanooga.net (J. Andrew Lipscomb) writes: >> This is an example of my main argument against tranferring titles, etc >> to yielded vamps. I think of the title or skill card as being given >> to the vampire through the influence of the controlling Methuselah. If >> a vampire were to be yeilded, he is in a sense betraying the original >> Methuselah. I like to think that any gifts given to the vampire would >> be taken away. "Fine, you can leave me, but I strip you of the title >> I gave you, and recall your gift of thaumaturgy!" or something like >> that. Dig? > >For equipment, that makes sense. But for titles and disciplines, it's not >so simple; if the title was given by a vote (as must be the case in the >circumstances at hand), that was not the Methuselah alone who did it. But it WAS the Methuselah alone that caused the politcal action to be possible. It was only through the hand of the Meth that the minion had even a chance to become titled. And in the case of skill cards, it is inarguably given by the hand of the Meth alone.

In article <40oti9$g...@agate.berkeley.edu>, je...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (jAMES e. lIN) wrote: > Yes, I personally think contesting should NOT include transferring > anything else but that contested thing only (title or weapon or master > or location etc). It really sucks to have everything transferred. It > took a while to build up what you have, and then you see a minor vamp > taking over and your assets??? Come on, this is Jyhad, where traditions > and respect take place. You don't just take over with little winnie > vampires. Why are they primogens, princes and justicars? Because they > earned it, EARNED it I say. Otherwise, all older vamps are very unpopular. > For first, it took them so long to be controlled;second, why waste your > time when all you can do is have younger vampires electing themselves > princes and justicars?? If the contesting and transferring everything is > a standard rule, I hope someone can explain to me all the reasons why > another vampire should get everything the other vampire had, and don't > give me bs and not focus on what this game is called and based on. > Respect, damn it, respect (Boy, do I sound like a ventrue...) It's not a standard rule. But I was speaking of contested VAMPIRES, i.e. the case where two copies of the SAME vampire are out. The whole argument, in fact, centers around the fact that stripping Jing Wei of the Tremere justicariat just because she changed hands makes no sense. For other contested unique cards, what you are saying makes perfect sense. (And let's face it, she'd never outlast Ulugh Beg anyway...) It's only when the vampire itself is contested that it breaks down a bit. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <1995081511...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>, IZZ...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (pete) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Not necessarily. It could be Angus the Unruled getting demoted to a principality by someone else's vote :) [ quoted text not captured ]

Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: >: The question that I have is: If a contested Vampire has a Title, and >:gets contested, shouldn't both Vampires take damage as long as the contesting >:goes on? >Interesting question - one which has never come up in our group as we >have few praxis seziures or ______ Justicar cards. Instinctive reaction >would be that if one is asserting that the vampires are indeed the same, >they _would_ have to both take damage intil the title is yielded. > >This begs the question, however: who decides whether or not to yield the >title? The vampire is out of play, so neither Meth has control over it at >this point to be able to _make_ the decision to yield the title... Seems to me the simplest solution would be to adopt the rule for trying to contest titles from torpor: you can't. Whichever of the vampires has its "turn" first is forced to yield the title, just as if it was in torpor. If the title is being contested with a vampire in play, the situation would quickly devolve to only the vampire in play laying claim to the title. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

If a copy of a contested vampire (or other card) is yielded, any cards played on that copy are burned. Equipment, master cards, retainers, and so on do not transfer to any other copy of the vampire. Specifically, a Blood Doll would not transfer to another copy of the vampire. There is a very big difference between taking control of something (e.g. with Grave Robbing), and winning a contest to get control of the card. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <40oti9$g...@agate.berkeley.edu>, je...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (jAMES e. lIN) writes: > In article <1995081411...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>, > pete <IZZ...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU> wrote: > >>: Um.... Blood Doll would not carry over. It is someone else's Blood > >>: Doll, and I don't think that it should move. > >> > >>Yes - forgot to mention that this is the one Master card that doesn't > >>carry over, > >> > >This is an example of my main argument against tranferring titles, etc > >to yielded vamps. I think of the title or skill card as being given > >to the vampire through the influence of the controlling Methuselah. If > >a vampire were to be yeilded, he is in a sense betraying the original > >Methuselah. I like to think that any gifts given to the vampire would > >be taken away. "Fine, you can leave me, but I strip you of the title > >I gave you, and recall your gift of thaumaturgy!" or something like > >that. Dig? > > Yes, I personally think contesting should NOT include transferring > anything else but that contested thing only (title or weapon or master > or location etc). It really sucks to have everything transferred. It > took a while to build up what you have, and then you see a minor vamp > taking over and your assets??? Come on, this is Jyhad, where traditions > and respect take place. You don't just take over with little winnie > vampires. Why are they primogens, princes and justicars? Because they > earned it, EARNED it I say. Otherwise, all older vamps are very unpopular. > For first, it took them so long to be controlled;second, why waste your > time when all you can do is have younger vampires electing themselves > princes and justicars?? If the contesting and transferring everything is > a standard rule, I hope someone can explain to me all the reasons why > another vampire should get everything the other vampire had, and don't > give me bs and not focus on what this game is called and based on. > Respect, damn it, respect (Boy, do I sound like a ventrue...) > > > ---jAMES--- Come the revolution, you're first up against the wall, buddy. Why are the older Vampires going to be more unpopular? Their built-in Primogen Status *always* transfers with a successful contestation. However, we are talking about an *optional* rule, which would accept the reality that Normal is still Normal (no pun intended), even if he is working for Don instead of Fred. In short, Vampires should not get younger when they switch sides. The idea is for people to have to pay transfers and pool for Vampires with Skills on them (hey! you gotta pay the new capacity!). But on the plus side, you get any titles or weapons that the Vampire had accumulated (assuming that you win the contesting, I wouldn't relingquish Igo, Prince of Albany). Ritaxis

In article <1995081411...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>, IZZ...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (pete) writes: > >: Um.... Blood Doll would not carry over. It is someone else's Blood > >: Doll, and I don't think that it should move. > > > >Yes - forgot to mention that this is the one Master card that doesn't > >carry over, > > > This is an example of my main argument against tranferring titles, etc > to yielded vamps. I think of the title or skill card as being given > to the vampire through the influence of the controlling Methuselah. If > a vampire were to be yeilded, he is in a sense betraying the original > Methuselah. I like to think that any gifts given to the vampire would > be taken away. "Fine, you can leave me, but I strip you of the title > I gave you, and recall your gift of thaumaturgy!" or something like > that. Dig? Um, no. If a Vampire gets stolen via Grave-Robbing or Malkavian Dementia, they keep all their stuff. In fact, all the things that would carry over have no *choice* built into them. Sure, you still "control" the gift of Thamaturgy, but the Vampire is working for Fred, and you can't turn it off. The only exception is BLOOD DOLL. Blood Doll requires *you* to make the decisions for it, you get to put blood on, and *you* get to take blood off. Rather than allowing you to steal blood from the Vampire when it switches sides (although that would be interesting), we should just let Blood Dolls die when the Vampire switches sides (or maybe just go inert until you get it back, like with Malkavian Dementia). Ritaxis

jAMES e. lIN (je...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) wrote: : In article <DDGuq...@cruzio.com>, <rit...@cruzio.com> wrote: : >Primogen Status *always* transfers with a successful contestation. : I'm talking about Prince and Justicars. You can't vote for a primogen : status. I think we're talking about two different things here. What I meant : is let's say Gilbert Duane has an extra thaumaturgy skill master and a : sengir dagger on him, but he's down to 1 blood. Let's say Bear Claw voted : himself for Prince of Miami, and so the methuselah who owns Gilbert decides : to yield. Does Bear Claw get the master skill and the sengir dagger? I think : not. Of _course_ not! That isn't what we are talking about here... If you had Gilbert Duane was out, and he had cards as above, the only difference this would ever make is if someone _else_ (say, me) brought out a copy of Gilbert as well and started contesting him. If I was successful in this contest, then 'my' copy of Gilbert would receive the Thaumaturgy skill as well, but not the dagger (the way our group plays), as well as any other Master cards in effect on Gilbert at the time that you conceded him. If Dollface had been declared the Malkavian Justicar by a vote card, and I then brought out my own copy of Dollface to contest yours and you gave up, Dollface would _still_ be the Malkavian Justicar - this is what is meant by titles transferring throughout this whole discussion. The reason for this optional change is a nod to reality; we are contesting these vampires because they are supposed to represent the same people. Why should Gilbert suddenly become younger if I manage to successfully contest him? Why should Dollface forfeit the title just because she is working for someone else now? (especially given that they are not supposed to know that they are working for anyone at all in the first place?) Shane H.W. Travis | When a stupid man is doing something he is tra...@duke.usask.ca | ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty. Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | -- George Bernard Shaw

In article <DDGuq...@cruzio.com>, <rit...@cruzio.com> wrote: >Primogen Status *always* transfers with a successful contestation. I'm talking about Prince and Justicars. You can't vote for a primogen status. I think we're talking about two different things here. What I meant is let's say Gilbert Duane has an extra thaumaturgy skill master and a sengir dagger on him, but he's down to 1 blood. Let's say Bear Claw voted himself for Prince of Miami, and so the methuselah who owns Gilbert decides to yield. DOes Bear Claw get the master skill and the sengir dagger? I think not. ---jAMES--- .

rit...@cruzio.com wrote: : However, we are talking about an *optional* rule, which would accept : the reality that Normal is still Normal (no pun intended), even if he is : working for Don instead of Fred. In short, Vampires should not get younger : when they switch sides. : The idea is for people to have to pay transfers and pool for Vampires : with Skills on them (hey! you gotta pay the new capacity!). But on the plus : side, you get any titles or weapons that the Vampire had accumulated (assuming : that you win the contesting, I wouldn't relingquish Igo, Prince of Albany). Just to be clear (since I seem to have started this whole thread) all that transfers over in our play group is _Master_ cards (Blood Doll excepted) which have been played on the vampire, and titles. Equipment is stripped and not given to the new copy of the vampire, should its Meth be successful in contesting it. We figured that the Meth that gave the epuipment has enough control to be able to take these away... This optional rule covers both good and bad master cards; just because I'm working for someone else doesn't mean that I got rid of that nasty Vampiric Disease, Re-Evolved (if a gangrel) or managed to re-cover my Haven... Prior to this thread, we did not make the Meth bringing out the new copy pay for any additional skills, whichnow seems somewhat unfair in light of the arguments here. The new copy came out at his old capacity, however, so there was no real gain in size - just a potential gain. Remember, however, that the person who originally played those skills did so in order to make that vampire better conform to his deck: Having Dieter with two Potence and a Thaumaturgy Master Skill card played on him may not help me in the slightest... [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <411n4t$8...@tribune.usask.ca>, Shane Travis <tra...@herald.usask.ca> wrote: >The reason for this optional change is a nod to reality; we are >contesting these vampires because they are supposed to represent the same >people. Why should Gilbert suddenly become younger if I manage to >successfully contest him? Hmm...okay. I was confused. Now I'm clear what's going on. I don't know. If you bring out another copy of the same vamp, I think you shouldn't get anything. You're right, there is no reason to not give the skill cards to the new vamp, however, that means all master cards should be given also, which is something I don't understand. I personally think we should just remove everything, which is already a hit for the vampire that yielded. So why give the other vamp everything when all the vampire did was win the name title? I know this is not magic, but it's like saying you create a doppleganger, and then the original creature got an enchant creature spell, should the doppleganger get anything? I don't think so...I think every thing should be EARNED. You get to keep the vampire, but you have to work for the equipment and other master cards...Just my two pesos worth... ---jAMES--- .

rit...@cruzio.com writes: [ quoted text not captured ] The official rules allow a Methuselah to make use of a stolen Blood Doll: Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <1995081511...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>, IZZ...@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (pete) writes: > In article <ewwa-14089...@portb19.chattanooga.net>, > ew...@chattanooga.net (J. Andrew Lipscomb) writes: > > >> This is an example of my main argument against tranferring titles, etc > >> to yielded vamps. I think of the title or skill card as being given > >> to the vampire through the influence of the controlling Methuselah. If > >> a vampire were to be yeilded, he is in a sense betraying the original > >> Methuselah. I like to think that any gifts given to the vampire would > >> be taken away. "Fine, you can leave me, but I strip you of the title > >> I gave you, and recall your gift of thaumaturgy!" or something like > >> that. Dig? > > > >For equipment, that makes sense. But for titles and disciplines, it's not > >so simple; if the title was given by a vote (as must be the case in the > >circumstances at hand), that was not the Methuselah alone who did it. > > But it WAS the Methuselah alone that caused the politcal action to be > possible. It was only through the hand of the Meth that the minion > had even a chance to become titled. And in the case of skill cards, it > is inarguably given by the hand of the Meth alone. > But what if the Skill or Title was given by the Other Methuselah (that IS legal, you know)? Ritaxis

Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote: >Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: >>: The question that I have is: If a contested Vampire has a Title, and >>:gets contested, shouldn't both Vampires take damage as long as the >>:contesting goes on? >>Interesting question - one which has never come up in our group as we >>have few praxis seziures or ______ Justicar cards. Instinctive reaction >>would be that if one is asserting that the vampires are indeed the same, >>they _would_ have to both take damage intil the title is yielded. >> >>This begs the question, however: who decides whether or not to yield the >>title? The vampire is out of play, so neither Meth has control over it at >>this point to be able to _make_ the decision to yield the title... > >Seems to me the simplest solution would be to adopt the rule for trying >to contest titles from torpor: you can't. Whichever of the vampires has >its "turn" first is forced to yield the title, just as if it was in torpor. >If the title is being contested with a vampire in play, the situation would > A Contested Vampire is out of the game. Any Titles Contested are also out of the game until the Vampire Contest is over, then the now-in-the- game Vampire would begin (continue) contesting the Title. Same as if the Contested Vampire had equiped with some Unique Equipment. When the Vampire is contested, the vampire and any cards on him are out of the game until the Contest is over. Then all cards (if the Vampire is yielded) are burned with him or (if the Vampire is won) all cards are again avaiable to be used and/or Contested anew. This doesn't make much sense from a game world perspective, but neither does the treatment of any other "enhancement" to a Contested Vampire - Titles may be lost, skills unlearned, status revoked, equipment confiscated, Retainers vanquished, Vast Wealth squandered, Beauty marred, de-evolution Darwinized, Pulses no longer felt, wounds healed, blood refilled, etc. Everything about a contested Vampire is considered out of the game, so why should a Title that is out of the game be contested? [ quoted text not captured ]

Here is my proposed variant to deal with the unrealism in the rule that cards on a contested and yielded vampire are burned: (1) When a vampire or unique ally is contested and the original owner yields, all aspects of that minion transfer (ie blood count, torpor, cards played on it) to the new owner, except that it always comes out untapped. (2) If a vampire whose blood capacity has been raised by skill cards is to be contested, the player creating the contest must match the new capacity. (For instance if Jing Wei has been granted Protean and superior Thaumaturgy by skill cards, any other Methuselah who wishes to contest her must place 5 blood, not merely her original 3. [ quoted text not captured ]

J. Andrew Lipscomb (ew...@chattanooga.net) wrote: : Here is my proposed variant to deal with the unrealism in the rule that : cards on a contested and yielded vampire are burned: : (1) When a vampire or unique ally is contested and the original owner : yields, all aspects of that minion transfer (ie blood count, torpor, cards : played on it) to the new owner, except that it always comes out untapped. : (2) If a vampire whose blood capacity has been raised by skill cards is to : be contested, the player creating the contest must match the new : capacity. (For instance if Jing Wei has been granted Protean and superior : Thaumaturgy by skill cards, any other Methuselah who wishes to contest her : must place 5 blood, not merely her original 3. If I am to understand your point correctly, then you advocate the following scenario: You bring out Jing Wei on turn 2, eventually put two skill cards on her and utilize her as a blocker. This results in Jing Wei ending up being damaged so badly that she is sent to torpor. I now bring out my own copy of her, but must pay 5 blood to bring her from my uncontrolled region. If you yield, I will end up having paid 5 blood for a vampire in torpor with no blood who will cost an additional 2 blood (from somewhere) to rescue, who wil then have to hunt. That right? Thanks... I'll stick to the unreality of the original rules over this. [ quoted text not captured ]

tra...@duke.usask.ca (Shane Travis) wrote: >J. Andrew Lipscomb (ew...@chattanooga.net) wrote: >: Here is my proposed variant to deal with the unrealism in the rule that >: cards on a contested and yielded vampire are burned: >: (1) When a vampire or unique ally is contested and the original owner >: yields, all aspects of that minion transfer (ie blood count, torpor, cards >: played on it) to the new owner, except that it always comes out untapped. >: (2) If a vampire whose blood capacity has been raised by skill cards is to >: be contested, the player creating the contest must match the new >: capacity. (For instance if Jing Wei has been granted Protean and superior >: Thaumaturgy by skill cards, any other Methuselah who wishes to contest her >: must place 5 blood, not merely her original 3. >If I am to understand your point correctly, then you advocate the >following scenario: >You bring out Jing Wei on turn 2, eventually put two skill cards on her and >utilize her as a blocker. This results in Jing Wei ending up being >damaged so badly that she is sent to torpor. >I now bring out my own copy of her, but must pay 5 blood to bring her from >my uncontrolled region. >If you yield, I will end up having paid 5 blood for a vampire in torpor >with no blood who will cost an additional 2 blood (from somewhere) to >rescue, who wil then have to hunt. That right? >Thanks... I'll stick to the unreality of the original rules over this. I'm not advocating this variant, but it would seem to me that if this were the case, simply do not bring Jing Wei out. Her Methuselah is having to deal with her being in torpor, and you would not gain much by investing in a vampire in torpor. If this were the case 'in reality', would any Methuselah invest its influence to control a vampire in torpor? Probably not. If the pivotal point of a Methuselah's struggles depends on controlling one out of (currently 96) vampires, it seems to me that his or her plan is too narrowly-focused. IMHO. -- Joseph Cheek (jch...@eworld.com) Grand Junction CO USA I buy and sell Jyhad cards (http://www.xmission.com/~cheek/jyhad.html)

jch...@eworld.com (Joseph Cheek) writes: >I'm not advocating this variant, but it would seem to me that if this were the >case, simply do not bring Jing Wei out. Her Methuselah is having to deal with >her being in torpor, and you would not gain much by investing in a vampire in >torpor. If this were the case 'in reality', would any Methuselah invest its >influence to control a vampire in torpor? Probably not. If the pivotal point >of a Methuselah's struggles depends on controlling one out of (currently 96) >vampires, it seems to me that his or her plan is too narrowly-focused. IMHO. FYI, the basic game of Jyhad consists of 111 vampires (15 vamps x 7 clans + 6 Caitiffs). I think you multiplied by only 6 clans (15x6+6=96). -- Simeon ---------------------------- simeo...@bbs.fullcoll.edu