Now that misdirection has been changed, can sleeping mind be used as
printed?
nice to see hidden lurker has been changed to a action modifier, or was
it just a mistake? I hope not, mister beast is looking to lurk,
hahahahhahahahhaah.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
alhazre...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Now that misdirection has been changed, can sleeping mind be used as
> printed?
Sure. Sleeping Mind doesn't have any errata.
Also the the most current card text (Sabbat War).
But note, even the Sabbat card text wouldn't keep a vampire
from using Wake to block (except at inferior), since the
superior just redundantly states that tapped minions cannot
block, which is the general rule.
> nice to see hidden lurker has been changed to a action modifier, or
> was it just a mistake? I hope not, mister beast is looking to lurk,
> hahahahhahahahhaah.
It is now printed to be an action modifier, as errata had made
it some time ago.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/[ quoted text not captured ]
On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:18:17 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
<m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>In article <8vh0o9$vps$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
>wrote:>>> alhazre...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> > Now that misdirection has been changed, can sleeping mind be used as
>> > printed?
>>
>> Sure. Sleeping Mind doesn't have any errata.
>> Also the the most current card text (Sabbat War).
>> But note, even the Sabbat card text wouldn't keep a vampire
>> from using Wake to block (except at inferior), since the
>> superior just redundantly states that tapped minions cannot
>> block, which is the general rule.>>Whoa! Another SW totally annihilated card. The Sabbat Sleeping Mind was
>interpreted by our group that tapped vamps could not block, eg a vamp
>using wake with evenings freshness could not block. There is an "and" in
This has never been true, even with the original version of the card.
A vampire who is reacting "as if" untapped is considered to be
untapped; that is the whole point of the "as if". The card was never
wallpaper; it still was an excellent solution to Guard Dogs, Rat's
Warning, and 2nd Tradition, all of which were EXTREMELY COMMON to see,
especially 2nd Tradition. Also consider that tapped vampires may not
block anything anyway; a vampire must be untapped to block.
Therefore, Wake's phrasing of "as if" untapped.
If it were NOT possible for Wake to "beat" it, then
Misdirection/Sleeping Mind decks would run roughshod over anything in
their path that didn't pack 10 Sudden Reversals, as nothing could
possibly block it. Or do you think that Dominate was somehow
underpowered beforehand?
>the card text of the Sabbat printing implying that it is an additional
>restriction. WWEF states that the vampire may react "as if" untapped,
>the vampire however is not untapped. The only way a tapped vampire could
>block was with WWEF. A redundancy is not a good way to describe what is
>essentially a card rewriting.
Current card text, from White Wolf's website and reference for those
of us who didn't get a Sleeping Mind with our Sabbat War:
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Dominate
Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Choose a
tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to block this
action. (S) Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced.
Minions cannot untap during this action.
So, at inferior, one vampire may not block; it is different from
Seduction because at inferior, you may stop older vampires from
blocking. Inferior is definitely not wallpaper.
At superior, vampires may not untap. Stops Eternal Vigilance now,
too, which believe you me you're going to want to be doing. A card
you'd put 10 of in every deck? Nope. Wallpaper? HELL no.
>What is the point of Sleeping Mind if it is not a more expensive general
>Seduction. Congrats, another wallpaper card along with Drawing out the
>Beast (unlike terror frenzy at inf, you cannot get rid of DotB hand jam)
>and Misdirection (tap A minion, Woo Hoo not!).
The point of Sleeping Mind is to either stop one vampire, no matter
what, from blocking (at INFERIOR, not SUPERIOR dominate), or to
prevent a whole class of vampires (those with Animalism, 2nd
tradition, and Eternal Vigilance) from untapping and blocking.
As far as the rest, I have no sympathy here. Don't want DotB hand
jam? Don't put 20 in your deck. Think it's wallpaper? It still
stops someone from maneuvering away, and from using equipment. That's
pretty damn powerful.
And Misdirection can go get fucked, for all I care. If you didn't see
the weenie Dominate and Presence hordes that made all-too-effective
use of this card, then you haven't been playing anywhere near the
USA... we saw MUCH too much of it. It's still useful; you can tap one
minion, and frequently people will leave one minion with permanent
intercept untapped. So you tap him. But you can no longer tap out
all your prey's vampires, and all HIS prey's vampires, so as to get 2
VPs in one turn with 8 weenie minions and lots of bleed cards. Fuck
that shit. Misdirection was OVERDUE.
>I'm really going to have to make a regressive abusive deck with say 5
>cards just to prove it still can be done.
Go for it. We'll be waiting. Which cards were you thinking of using?
-- Derek
Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
- C. Darwin, 1871
In article <8vh0o9$vps$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
wrote:
> alhazre...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Now that misdirection has been changed, can sleeping mind be used as
> > printed?
>
> Sure. Sleeping Mind doesn't have any errata.
> Also the the most current card text (Sabbat War).
> But note, even the Sabbat card text wouldn't keep a vampire
> from using Wake to block (except at inferior), since the
> superior just redundantly states that tapped minions cannot
> block, which is the general rule.
Whoa! Another SW totally annihilated card. The Sabbat Sleeping Mind was
interpreted by our group that tapped vamps could not block, eg a vamp
using wake with evenings freshness could not block. There is an "and" in
the card text of the Sabbat printing implying that it is an additional
restriction. WWEF states that the vampire may react "as if" untapped,
the vampire however is not untapped. The only way a tapped vampire could
block was with WWEF. A redundancy is not a good way to describe what is
essentially a card rewriting.
What is the point of Sleeping Mind if it is not a more expensive general
Seduction. Congrats, another wallpaper card along with Drawing out the
Beast (unlike terror frenzy at inf, you cannot get rid of DotB hand jam)
and Misdirection (tap A minion, Woo Hoo not!).
I'm really going to have to make a regressive abusive deck with say 5
cards just to prove it still can be done.
--
Knowledge is power. Michael F. Tomkins
Power corrupts. m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au
Stay stupid. University of Canberra, Australia.
http://student.canberra.edu.au/~u964617/
In article <m.tomkins-B864F...@newshost.anu.edu.au>,
Michael F. Tomkins <m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>In article <8vh0o9$vps$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
>wrote:>> alhazre...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> > Now that misdirection has been changed, can sleeping mind be used as
>> > printed?>> Sure. Sleeping Mind doesn't have any errata.
>> Also the the most current card text (Sabbat War).
>> But note, even the Sabbat card text wouldn't keep a vampire
>> from using Wake to block (except at inferior), since the
>> superior just redundantly states that tapped minions cannot
>> block, which is the general rule.>Whoa! Another SW totally annihilated card. The Sabbat Sleeping Mind was
>interpreted by our group that tapped vamps could not block, eg a vamp
>using wake with evenings freshness could not block. There is an "and" in
>the card text of the Sabbat printing implying that it is an additional
>restriction. WWEF states that the vampire may react "as if" untapped,
>the vampire however is not untapped. The only way a tapped vampire could
>block was with WWEF. A redundancy is not a good way to describe what is
>essentially a card rewriting.
Note that this was never legit, even under the original wording. You've
been using a house rule, which is fine as long as your local playgroup
agrees.
>What is the point of Sleeping Mind if it is not a more expensive general
>Seduction. Congrats, another wallpaper card along with Drawing out the
>Beast (unlike terror frenzy at inf, you cannot get rid of DotB hand jam)
>and Misdirection (tap A minion, Woo Hoo not!).
DotB and Misdirection are still strong, useful cards. Chainsaw is
wallpaper. DotB is not. I trust you see the difference. Sleeping Mind
is quite good vs. 2nd Tradition/Eternal Vigilance, say.
gomi
--
Individually, I love you all with affection unspeakable; but, collectively,
I look upon you with a disgust that amounts to absolute detestation.
In article <l03p1t4b9m15fes7v...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray
<lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:18:17 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
> <m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>> >Whoa! Another SW totally annihilated card. The Sabbat Sleeping Mind was
> >interpreted by our group that tapped vamps could not block, eg a vamp
> >using wake with evenings freshness could not block. There is an "and" in
>> This has never been true, even with the original version of the card.
> A vampire who is reacting "as if" untapped is considered to be
> untapped; that is the whole point of the "as if". The card was never
> wallpaper; it still was an excellent solution to Guard Dogs, Rat's
> Warning, and 2nd Tradition, all of which were EXTREMELY COMMON to see,
> especially 2nd Tradition. Also consider that tapped vampires may not
> block anything anyway; a vampire must be untapped to block.
> Therefore, Wake's phrasing of "as if" untapped.
And this is basically where the difference in interpretation comes from.
We regarded the vampire as tapped, and by the final phrase of sleeping
mind unable to block. It was able to block while tapped, using Wake if
Sleeping mind was not played.
> If it were NOT possible for Wake to "beat" it, then
> Misdirection/Sleeping Mind decks would run roughshod over anything in
> their path that didn't pack 10 Sudden Reversals, as nothing could
> possibly block it. Or do you think that Dominate was somehow
> underpowered beforehand?
No, most of my decks contain dominate. Cant beat it join it.
> >the card text of the Sabbat printing implying that it is an additional
> >restriction. WWEF states that the vampire may react "as if" untapped,
> >the vampire however is not untapped. The only way a tapped vampire could
> >block was with WWEF. A redundancy is not a good way to describe what is
> >essentially a card rewriting.
>> Current card text, from White Wolf's website and reference for those
> of us who didn't get a Sleeping Mind with our Sabbat War:
>
> Cardtype: Action Modifier
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Dominate
> Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Choose a
> tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to block this
> action. (S) Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced.
> Minions cannot untap during this action.
>
> So, at inferior, one vampire may not block; it is different from
> Seduction because at inferior, you may stop older vampires from
> blocking. Inferior is definitely not wallpaper.
>
> At superior, vampires may not untap. Stops Eternal Vigilance now,
> too, which believe you me you're going to want to be doing. A card
> you'd put 10 of in every deck? Nope. Wallpaper? HELL no.
I may emblish somtimes. Less powerful than we played it.
> >What is the point of Sleeping Mind if it is not a more expensive general
> >Seduction. Congrats, another wallpaper card along with Drawing out the
> >Beast (unlike terror frenzy at inf, you cannot get rid of DotB hand jam)
> >and Misdirection (tap A minion, Woo Hoo not!).
>> The point of Sleeping Mind is to either stop one vampire, no matter
> what, from blocking (at INFERIOR, not SUPERIOR dominate), or to
> prevent a whole class of vampires (those with Animalism, 2nd
> tradition, and Eternal Vigilance) from untapping and blocking.
>
> As far as the rest, I have no sympathy here. Don't want DotB hand
> jam? Don't put 20 in your deck. Think it's wallpaper? It still
> stops someone from maneuvering away, and from using equipment. That's
> pretty damn powerful.
Sucks compared to what it was. No definate damage, no stack.
> And Misdirection can go get fucked, for all I care. If you didn't see
> the weenie Dominate and Presence hordes that made all-too-effective
> use of this card, then you haven't been playing anywhere near the
> USA... we saw MUCH too much of it. It's still useful; you can tap one
> minion, and frequently people will leave one minion with permanent
> intercept untapped. So you tap him. But you can no longer tap out
> all your prey's vampires, and all HIS prey's vampires, so as to get 2
> VPs in one turn with 8 weenie minions and lots of bleed cards. Fuck
> that shit. Misdirection was OVERDUE.
You let them have 8 minions how? Esp ones with DOM and 3 blood. That
means at least 4 pool for DOM or 1-2 for dom with a turn to place that 1
master to make it DOM. Intercept creams it as a good intercept deck will
act forward and have cards to block with, like when those 1-2 weeners
hunt to topup/increase with the master card.
And people who don't pack bleed defense are singleminded. I have laughed
my arse off while a weenie stealth bleed first elimited my prey, then my
grand prey through 5 deflections.
> >I'm really going to have to make a regressive abusive deck with say 5
> >cards just to prove it still can be done.
>> Go for it. We'll be waiting. Which cards were you thinking of using?
Ahhh, that would be telling.
--
Giving money and power Michael F. Tomkins
to Government is like m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au
giving whiskey and fast University of Canberra, Australia.
cars to teenage boys. http://student.canberra.edu.au/~u964617/
In article <8vhsfq$12t5$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>, go...@best.com (Gomi no
Sensei) wrote:
> >Whoa! Another SW totally annihilated card. The Sabbat Sleeping Mind was
> >interpreted by our group that tapped vamps could not block, eg a vamp
> >using wake with evenings freshness could not block. There is an "and" in
> >the card text of the Sabbat printing implying that it is an additional
> >restriction. WWEF states that the vampire may react "as if" untapped,
> >the vampire however is not untapped. The only way a tapped vampire could
> >block was with WWEF. A redundancy is not a good way to describe what is
> >essentially a card rewriting.
>
> Note that this was never legit, even under the original wording. You've
> been using a house rule, which is fine as long as your local playgroup
> agrees.
There was never a clarification, because we thought that was what the
wording meant.
> >What is the point of Sleeping Mind if it is not a more expensive general
> >Seduction. Congrats, another wallpaper card along with Drawing out the
> >Beast (unlike terror frenzy at inf, you cannot get rid of DotB hand jam)
> >and Misdirection (tap A minion, Woo Hoo not!).
>
> DotB and Misdirection are still strong, useful cards. Chainsaw is
> wallpaper. DotB is not. I trust you see the difference. Sleeping Mind
> is quite good vs. 2nd Tradition/Eternal Vigilance, say.
Not as strong as they were.
--
Michael F. Tomkins m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:19:38 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
<m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>> especially 2nd Tradition. Also consider that tapped vampires may not
>> block anything anyway; a vampire must be untapped to block.
>> Therefore, Wake's phrasing of "as if" untapped.>
>And this is basically where the difference in interpretation comes from.
>We regarded the vampire as tapped, and by the final phrase of sleeping
>mind unable to block. It was able to block while tapped, using Wake if
>Sleeping mind was not played.
A lot of people made this error. Nevertheless, it was an error, as no
tapped vampire may ever block an action.
>> If it were NOT possible for Wake to "beat" it, then
>> Misdirection/Sleeping Mind decks would run roughshod over anything in
>> their path that didn't pack 10 Sudden Reversals, as nothing could
>> possibly block it. Or do you think that Dominate was somehow
>> underpowered beforehand?>
>No, most of my decks contain dominate. Cant beat it join it.
Something that we have long since debunked on this group; if you have
to play "X" or "anti-X" in order to compete, the game is broken and no
fun for anyone except those playing "X".
So you advocate then that we should just dump all the other
disciplines in favor of Dominate? How weak.
>> So, at inferior, one vampire may not block; it is different from
>> Seduction because at inferior, you may stop older vampires from
>> blocking. Inferior is definitely not wallpaper.
>>
>> At superior, vampires may not untap. Stops Eternal Vigilance now,
>> too, which believe you me you're going to want to be doing. A card
>> you'd put 10 of in every deck? Nope. Wallpaper? HELL no.>
>I may emblish somtimes. Less powerful than we played it.
Which is a good thing for the game as a whole. Bad for Dominate;
sucks to be Dominate. Actually, it still DOESN'T suck to be Dominate,
at all, even with this errata.
>> >What is the point of Sleeping Mind if it is not a more expensive general
>> >Seduction. Congrats, another wallpaper card along with Drawing out the
>> >Beast (unlike terror frenzy at inf, you cannot get rid of DotB hand jam)
>> >and Misdirection (tap A minion, Woo Hoo not!).
>>
>> The point of Sleeping Mind is to either stop one vampire, no matter
>> what, from blocking (at INFERIOR, not SUPERIOR dominate), or to
>> prevent a whole class of vampires (those with Animalism, 2nd
>> tradition, and Eternal Vigilance) from untapping and blocking.
>>
>> As far as the rest, I have no sympathy here. Don't want DotB hand
>> jam? Don't put 20 in your deck. Think it's wallpaper? It still
>> stops someone from maneuvering away, and from using equipment. That's
>> pretty damn powerful.>
>Sucks compared to what it was. No definate damage, no stack.
You obviously don't ever have to play against Assamite long-range
combat, Leather Jacket damage prevention, Deer Rifle run-away decks,
or any of a number of decks that DotB is still quite useful against.
Maybe it's not what it was: cry me a river. It was awfully damn
powerful, and the whole point of V:TES was to avoid having the "Magic"
power-card situation.
>> And Misdirection can go get fucked, for all I care. If you didn't see
>> the weenie Dominate and Presence hordes that made all-too-effective
>> use of this card, then you haven't been playing anywhere near the
>> USA... we saw MUCH too much of it. It's still useful; you can tap one
>> minion, and frequently people will leave one minion with permanent
>> intercept untapped. So you tap him. But you can no longer tap out
>> all your prey's vampires, and all HIS prey's vampires, so as to get 2
>> VPs in one turn with 8 weenie minions and lots of bleed cards. Fuck
>> that shit. Misdirection was OVERDUE.>
>You let them have 8 minions how? Esp ones with DOM and 3 blood. That
>means at least 4 pool for DOM or 1-2 for dom with a turn to place that 1
>master to make it DOM. Intercept creams it as a good intercept deck will
>act forward and have cards to block with, like when those 1-2 weeners
>hunt to topup/increase with the master card.
Yes, you really DIDN'T see the weenie Dominate hordes, did you? They
don't need 3 blood. They just need 1. And you don't need superior
Dominate. Just inferior. And intercept isn't relevant if you can't
untap. And without Eagle's Sight, its predator is irrelevant since it
takes no actions other than "bleed forward" actions until its vampires
are empty from bleeding so much.
Let's give you an example game, assuming I go, say, second:
First turn, I transfer out Samson. Table groans. You, my prey, look
puzzled and say "but he has no stealth and only inferior DOM!"
Second turn, he bleeds you for 4: Govern + Bonding, 1 blood.
- I transfer out Ohanna and Mustafa Rahman.
- You transfer out your first vampire.
Third turn, I play Misdirection and tap that vampire.
- Samson, Ohanna, and Mustafa bleed you for approximately 9-12 total,
depending on which bleed cards are in my hand. Samson is empty,
Ohanna and Mustafa are at 1.
- I transfer out Gloria Giovanni. Total pool cost to me so far: 10
in transfers, 1 in Misdirection, and who cares what my predator has
done? He can't move as fast as I can. Note that none of these
Bondings have been played as stealth yet.
Fourth turn, I play Misdirection and tap any of your untapped minions,
*and* since you are at 14 pool minus whatever you spent transferring
out minions, probably leaving you at 8 or so, I tap out your prey's
minions as well. First two vampires bleed you with Govern+Bonding,
which should oust you. Third bleeds you, if necessary; bleeds your
prey, if not. Samson has to hunt, and probably gets killed. Who
cares? I spend 1 pool and get a new minion to my uncontrolled.
And this isn't even a particularly effective example. A better
version would use a few Seductions, a Parthenon to play Effective
Managements, a few Deflections so those freshly transferred vampires
can serve as defense... you get the idea.
And before you go off, YES, this really DID happen. YES, it really
does work that well. YES, it will toast your ass and there won't be a
damn thing you can do about it except pack 20+ Wakes of some kind, or
10 Sudden Reversals.
>And people who don't pack bleed defense are singleminded. I have laughed
>my arse off while a weenie stealth bleed first elimited my prey, then my
>grand prey through 5 deflections.
Hard to deflect when you don't have a vampire out yet, or when your
vampire can't untap to play the Deflection because you have no Wakes
in hand.
Even harder to deflect when you have to have 5 of them in your opening
hand just to survive.
>> >I'm really going to have to make a regressive abusive deck with say 5
>> >cards just to prove it still can be done.
>>
>> Go for it. We'll be waiting. Which cards were you thinking of using?>
>Ahhh, that would be telling.
Translation: You can't and are now having to back off ;)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <5vcq1tko4s3cf6vh0...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray
<lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:19:38 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
> <m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>> >> If it were NOT possible for Wake to "beat" it, then
> >> Misdirection/Sleeping Mind decks would run roughshod over anything in
> >> their path that didn't pack 10 Sudden Reversals, as nothing could
> >> possibly block it. Or do you think that Dominate was somehow
> >> underpowered beforehand?
> >
> >No, most of my decks contain dominate. Cant beat it join it.
>
> Something that we have long since debunked on this group; if you have
> to play "X" or "anti-X" in order to compete, the game is broken and no
> fun for anyone except those playing "X".
>
> So you advocate then that we should just dump all the other
> disciplines in favor of Dominate? How weak.
Please, don't strawman me, how weak. Any deck that dose not have a
defence for the 6 strategies is weak in an area. (Bleed, Combat, Vote,
Bloat, Horde and Stealth. Intercept is generally an anti-X)
> >> So, at inferior, one vampire may not block; it is different from
> >> Seduction because at inferior, you may stop older vampires from
> >> blocking. Inferior is definitely not wallpaper.
> >>
> >> At superior, vampires may not untap. Stops Eternal Vigilance now,
> >> too, which believe you me you're going to want to be doing. A card
> >> you'd put 10 of in every deck? Nope. Wallpaper? HELL no.
> >> >I may embellish sometimes. Less powerful than we played it.>
> Which is a good thing for the game as a whole. Bad for Dominate;
> sucks to be Dominate. Actually, it still DOESN'T suck to be Dominate,
> at all, even with this errata.
>
> >> >What is the point of Sleeping Mind if it is not a more expensive
> >> >general
> >> >Seduction. Congrats, another wallpaper card along with Drawing out
> >> >the
> >> >Beast (unlike terror frenzy at inf, you cannot get rid of DotB hand
> >> >jam)
> >> >and Misdirection (tap A minion, Woo Hoo not!).
> >>
> >> The point of Sleeping Mind is to either stop one vampire, no matter
> >> what, from blocking (at INFERIOR, not SUPERIOR dominate), or to
> >> prevent a whole class of vampires (those with Animalism, 2nd
> >> tradition, and Eternal Vigilance) from untapping and blocking.
> >>
> >> As far as the rest, I have no sympathy here. Don't want DotB hand
> >> jam? Don't put 20 in your deck. Think it's wallpaper? It still
> >> stops someone from maneuvering away, and from using equipment. That's
> >> pretty damn powerful.
> >> >Sucks compared to what it was. No definite damage, no stack.>
> You obviously don't ever have to play against Assamite long-range
> combat, Leather Jacket damage prevention, Deer Rifle run-away decks,
> or any of a number of decks that DotB is still quite useful against.
And quite hand jamable in all other situations. See your own X anti-X
argument.
[ quoted text not captured ]> can serve as defence... you get the idea.
In a bloat deck, I get to Mtap. In an intercept deck I get to block. In
either a Deflection or Telepathic Misdirection equipped deck, you get to
oust my prey.
The simple reason we don't see these types of decks in Canberra is they
don't win. In tourneys, they get 3-6 VP's, in the final, they get
creamed. We have a long tradition of get rid of the random element.
> And before you go off, YES, this really DID happen. YES, it really
> does work that well. YES, it will toast your ass and there won't be a
> damn thing you can do about it except pack 20+ Wakes of some kind, or
> 10 Sudden Reversals.
>> >And people who don't pack bleed defence are single-minded. I have laughed
> >my arse off while a weenie stealth bleed first eliminated my prey, then my> >grand prey through 5 deflections.
>
> Hard to deflect when you don't have a vampire out yet, or when your
> vampire can't untap to play the Deflection because you have no Wakes
> in hand.
>
> Even harder to deflect when you have to have 5 of them in your opening
> hand just to survive.
Who said opening hand. The above was rounds 3-5, I had cycled 4 cards
with discards, 6 with FotBoN and ~10 with 3 actions to achieve this.
5/~30 is not too bad, though it was a good draw of the 8 in the deck.
> >> >I'm really going to have to make a regressive abusive deck with say 5
> >> >cards just to prove it still can be done.
> >>
> >> Go for it. We'll be waiting. Which cards were you thinking of using?
> >
> >Ahhh, that would be telling.
>
> Translation: You can't and are now having to back off ;)
Translation: Check out the next Canberra Tourney report for a deck
called "The Deck that will be Errataed". Mind you I have a nasty ability
in tourney's to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I am just
annoyed that I missed the August tourney, the October one was cancelled,
the December one doesn't look like it's going ahead (prize support
probs), National titles in Jan are off as well (CanCon organiser did not
consult VEKN Canberra for booklet ad in JUNE!! as they had the privous 2
years. CanCon could be better described as Canberra Warhammer
convention.) and Feburary is the first chance I will get! (and no you
are not seeing it till then :P )
Other regressive decks.
Masika, Clan Imp, MN and anything else. MN and Malk untap.
Guardian Angel Second Trad deck (WALL from hell).
Garou dodge/press, weenie Gangrel.
Temptation of Greater Power.
Weenie bleed.
Fortitude hoards.
--
die netzaddresse die Michael F. Tomkins
ich vorher gab war falsch. m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au
die addresse hier University of Canberra, Australia.
ist die richtige... http://student.canberra.edu.au/~u964617/
> > On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:19:38 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
> > <m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
[snip discussion w/Derek Ray]
> Any deck that does not have a> defence for the 6 strategies is weak in an area. (Bleed, Combat, Vote,
> Bloat, Horde and Stealth. Intercept is generally an anti-X)
There are THREE types of decks: Bleed, Combat, Vote. Bloat, Horde, and
Stealth, et. al., are just subsets of the three deck types. B/C/V
describes the primary method(s) by which you accomplish your goal, that
being to oust your prey.
[snip more discussion w/Derek Ray]
> Translation: Check out the next Canberra Tourney report for a deck
> called "The Deck that will be Errataed".
Why don't you post it for us?
> Other regressive decks.
> Masika, Clan Imp, MN and anything else. MN and Malk untap.
> Guardian Angel Second Trad deck (WALL from hell).
> Garou dodge/press, weenie Gangrel.
> Temptation of Greater Power.
> Weenie bleed.
> Fortitude hoards.
Why don't you post a few for us?
> --
> die netzaddresse die Michael F. Tomkins
> ich vorher gab war falsch. m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au
> die addresse hier University of Canberra, Australia.
> ist die richtige... http://student.canberra.edu.au/~u964617/
--
Kevin J. Mergen, kjme...@home.com, Prince of Madison, WI
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
In article <bLlT5.78227$a7.12...@news1.rdc1.il.home.com>, "Kevin M."
<kjme...@NOSPAMhome.com> wrote:
> > Translation: Check out the next Canberra Tourney report for a deck
> > called "The Deck that will be Errataed".
>
> Why don't you post it for us?
See previous.
> > Other regressive decks.
> > Masika, Clan Imp, MN and anything else. MN and Malk untap.
> > Guardian Angel Second Trad deck (WALL from hell).
> > Garou dodge/press, weenie Gangrel.
> > Temptation of Greater Power.
> > Weenie bleed.
> > Fortitude hoards.
>
> Why don't you post a few for us?
Ok.
Crypt:
Arika (Vent IC) 11
Etrius (Trem IC) 11
Queen Anne (Vent Pr) 10
Democritus (Vent J) 10
Lucian (Malk J) 10
Ulugh Beg (Trem J) 10
Marty Lechtansi (Nosf) 9
Roxanne (Malk) 9
Gilbert Duane (Malk Pr) 7
Gregor Anderson (Malk Pr) 7
Mariel (Malk) 7
Didi Meyers (Malk) 5
17 Masters:
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
5 Minion Tap
2 Sudden Reversal
7 Temptation of the Greater Power
1 Tomb of Rameses III
71 Minion cards:
15 None
5 Fifth Tradition: Hospitality
5 Second Tradition: Domain
3 WWEF
1 Rumors of Gehenna
1 Muddled Vampire Hunter
40 Dominate
8 Deflection
20 Govern the Unaligned
10 Obediance
6 Fortitude
6 Freak Drive
12 Obfuscate
6 Lost in Crowds
6 Cloak of the Gathering
--
You will pay for you sins Michael F. Tomkins
m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au
If you have already paid University of Canberra, Australia.
Please disregard this notice http://student.canberra.edu.au/~u964617/
On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:42:48 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
<m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>> >No, most of my decks contain dominate. Cant beat it join it.
>>
>> Something that we have long since debunked on this group; if you have
>> to play "X" or "anti-X" in order to compete, the game is broken and no
>> fun for anyone except those playing "X".
>>
>> So you advocate then that we should just dump all the other
>> disciplines in favor of Dominate? How weak.>
>Please, don't strawman me, how weak. Any deck that dose not have a
"Can't beat it, join it". Still sounds like you've dumped all the
disciplines in favor of Dominate yourself.
>defence for the 6 strategies is weak in an area. (Bleed, Combat, Vote,
>Bloat, Horde and Stealth. Intercept is generally an anti-X)
Intercept is, in fact, not an anti-X. *effective* intercept is either
combat, or anti-*everything*; based on the theory of intercepting and
killing all one's prey's vampires, or turning oneself backwards and
attempting to gain 2 VPs from a table.
>> >> As far as the rest, I have no sympathy here. Don't want DotB hand
>> >> jam? Don't put 20 in your deck. Think it's wallpaper? It still
>> >> stops someone from maneuvering away, and from using equipment. That's
>> >> pretty damn powerful.
>> >
>> >Sucks compared to what it was. No definite damage, no stack.
>>
>> You obviously don't ever have to play against Assamite long-range
>> combat, Leather Jacket damage prevention, Deer Rifle run-away decks,
>> or any of a number of decks that DotB is still quite useful against.>
>And quite hand jamable in all other situations. See your own X anti-X
>argument.
No, actually, you can always play it. In a plain old Gangrel poke
deck, it works great; you drop one DotB, they don't run away, you poke
their eye out. You have plenty of prevent cards in your deck ANYWAY,
since you're the Gangrel, so what do you care if they punch for 2 or
punch for 1? Skin of Steel stops it all anyway.
If you can't deal with the +1 hand damage from DotB, then you
shouldn't be playing the card at all. If you CAN deal with the +1
hand damage, why would you ever NOT play one at the start of every
combat? The whole rest of the card is beautiful and screws up so many
different things.
Again, if you're hand jamming, then you're a dumbass and including 20
in your deck. If you don't want to hand jam on them, then don't be a
dumbass. Enough said.
>> Let's give you an example game, assuming I go, say, second:
(most of game snipped)
>> Fourth turn, I play Misdirection and tap any of your untapped minions,
>> *and* since you are at 14 pool minus whatever you spent transferring
>> out minions, probably leaving you at 8 or so, I tap out your prey's
>> minions as well. First two vampires bleed you with Govern+Bonding,
>> which should oust you. Third bleeds you, if necessary; bleeds your
>> prey, if not. Samson has to hunt, and probably gets killed. Who
>> cares? I spend 1 pool and get a new minion to my uncontrolled.
>>
>> And this isn't even a particularly effective example. A better
>> version would use a few Seductions, a Parthenon to play Effective
>> Managements, a few Deflections so those freshly transferred vampires
>> can serve as defence... you get the idea.>
>In a bloat deck, I get to Mtap. In an intercept deck I get to block. In
>either a Deflection or Telepathic Misdirection equipped deck, you get to
>oust my prey.
The only viable response you've listed here is "bloat", and even that
just slows my deck down by one turn; your first vamp isn't any bigger
than 6, so what are you going to do, minion tap for 5? If you're
going for a 10-cap, you can consider yourself fucked now. A *good*
version of these decks packs the Parthenon and Sudden Reversals, just
for those eventualities. If the bloat deck is the GRANDPREY of the
weenie Dominate, though, it usually stops cold, because the bloat deck
has had many turns to take actions without being touched. This is why
bloat decks got so common in LA.
In an intercept deck, you can block as many times as you have Wakes,
because you're tapped. Didn't get more than one Wake up quickly
enough? You're fucked. Have a nice day.
Deflection/Tel. Misdirection? Don't make me laugh. You haven't got
enough of those cards in the deck and you sure as hell won't see them
early enough for it to matter. And you also have to have 1 Wake for
each one along with them, because again: YOU ARE TAPPED. Are you
totally failing to realize this?
Again, we have SEEN THIS HAPPEN over and over and over again. Perhaps
you don't believe me; well, you can believe all the rest of the UK and
US players who are cheering for Misdirection getting it up the ass.
>The simple reason we don't see these types of decks in Canberra is they
>don't win. In tourneys, they get 3-6 VP's, in the final, they get
>creamed. We have a long tradition of get rid of the random element.
In other words, you have to gang up on it or it sweeps. Yeah, that's
a GREAT game balance there. That was what we had to do in the US/UK
as well; make it a 4 on 1 game. And I bet a well built one could
sweep anyway unless it got bad seating position in front of a combat
deck. We saw it happen enough, until people started playing
anti-weenie-Dominate decks.
>> Hard to deflect when you don't have a vampire out yet, or when your
>> vampire can't untap to play the Deflection because you have no Wakes
>> in hand.
>>
>> Even harder to deflect when you have to have 5 of them in your opening
>> hand just to survive.>
>Who said opening hand. The above was rounds 3-5, I had cycled 4 cards
No, the above was rounds 2-4. You didn't have a vampire until the end
of your 2nd turn, and he was tapped, so you had to have a Wake *and*
Deflection in your first 9 cards, since you could only discard 2 cards
in the meantime.
On your third turn, your *one* vampire had the option to take an
action and move some cards. If you spent pool transferring to try to
get a second vampire, you pretty much just ensured your own ousting,
because on my fourth turn, I have too many vampires bleeding you for
you to block. Especially when you need Wakes to do it, because YOU'RE
TAPPED.
>with discards, 6 with FotBoN and ~10 with 3 actions to achieve this.
>5/~30 is not too bad, though it was a good draw of the 8 in the deck.
And it was described above as a BAD draw of the weenie Dominate horde.
A GOOD draw would have included a Parthenon, a Sudden Reversal, and an
Effective Management or two to get guys faster. If I'm REALLY lucky,
an Info Highway, and then I nail your ass with three different vamps
on turn 2, before you ever get a vampire out.
Also, your math sucks; since your guys are TAPPED (misdirection,
baby), you needed to have 5 Wakes and 5 Deflections; 10 cards, IN
TANDEM. A *damned* good draw to get 10 of the 18 in the deck (i'm
assuming 10 wakes to be generous). You don't get 3 actions; you only
get ONE before I'm ousting you. Go back and read it closely.
>> >> >I'm really going to have to make a regressive abusive deck with say 5
>> >> >cards just to prove it still can be done.>> Translation: You can't and are now having to back off ;)>
>Translation: Check out the next Canberra Tourney report for a deck
>called "The Deck that will be Errataed". Mind you I have a nasty ability
la la la la la, more airy bullshit that will never see the light of
day. Cmon, buddy, cough up. I bet this is nothing but delusional
fantasy, myself. Step up to the plate and show us.
>in tourney's to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I am just
>annoyed that I missed the August tourney, the October one was cancelled,
>the December one doesn't look like it's going ahead (prize support
>probs), National titles in Jan are off as well (CanCon organiser did not
>consult VEKN Canberra for booklet ad in JUNE!! as they had the privous 2
>years. CanCon could be better described as Canberra Warhammer
>convention.) and Feburary is the first chance I will get! (and no you
>are not seeing it till then :P )
Translation: It doesn't exist and you're just full of shit :) Time
to put up or shut up for you, I'm thinking. So put up already.
>Other regressive decks.
>Masika, Clan Imp, MN and anything else. MN and Malk untap.
You think this is abusive? It's fun as hell, sure, but it takes a lot
of effort to set up, and it's real easy to make it go "boom". The
easiest way is to block the Clan Impersonation. The second easiest
way is just to burn the Madness Network. The THIRD easiest way is
just to kill Masika's ass, since before he gets a Secure Haven or an
Assault Rifle he's got a big-ass target on his forehead.
This deck isn't remotely abusive.
>Guardian Angel Second Trad deck (WALL from hell).
Generally fails to oust its prey. Loses to Forgotten Labyrinth in any
form (Nossie Vote Rules), loses to Night Moves/Spying Mission, loses
to any weenie horde (you don't have enough 2nd traditions), and gets
the shit kicked out of it by combat (your vampire eventually runs out
of combat defense and gets killed, and all those 2nd traditions jam
your hand).
It can be set up to avoid all of these things, but then it's no longer
abusive. It's still good, but it's far from abusive.
>Garou dodge/press, weenie Gangrel.
Loses to people blocking the Garou action, killing the Garou, or
stealing the Garou. Weenie Gangrel can't get past 2nd Tradition with
inferior Protean stealth.
>Temptation of Greater Power.
Legbiter tried to break this. It's very powerful. But the novelty
value is wearing off, and people are finding ways to deal with it.
Most of them involve "kill the Justicar." It was very nasty for
awhile, but I'm still not convinced that TGP requires any errata.
>Weenie bleed.
Duh, isn't that what I was just holding up for you above as a good
reason to errata Misdirection? Duh? DUH? Hello? Anyone in there?
>Fortitude hoards.
I assume you mean Trap/Undead Persistence weenie mobs who all bleed
for 1 lots. Or just plain old skin-of-rock weenie mobs who computer
hack. These die miserably to any fast deck behind them, due to the
fact that Fortitude is a shitty defense against anything EXCEPT
combat, and so a mono-Fortitude deck really relies on not having the
Ventrue Voters behind it, or Marijava Ghoul Toreador, or, or, or...
take your pick.
Again, far from abusive.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <m.tomkins-EE7DD...@newshost.anu.edu.au>,
Michael F. Tomkins <m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>Crypt:
>Arika (Vent IC) 11
>Etrius (Trem IC) 11
>Queen Anne (Vent Pr) 10
>Democritus (Vent J) 10
>Lucian (Malk J) 10
>Ulugh Beg (Trem J) 10
>Marty Lechtansi (Nosf) 9
>Roxanne (Malk) 9
>Gilbert Duane (Malk Pr) 7
>Gregor Anderson (Malk Pr) 7
>Mariel (Malk) 7
>Didi Meyers (Malk) 5>17 Masters:
>1 Dreams of the Sphinx
>5 Minion Tap
>2 Sudden Reversal>7 Temptation of Greater Power>1 Tomb of Rameses III>71 Minion cards:>5 Fifth Tradition: Hospitality>5 Second Tradition: Domain
>3 WWEF
>1 Rumors of Gehenna
>1 Muddled Vampire Hunter>8 Deflection
>20 Govern the Unaligned
>10 Obedience>6 Freak Drive>6 Lost in Crowds
>6 Cloak the Gathering
This isn't even a good deck. As an example of
a 'regressive' deck (whatever the term means),
it's laughable. It'll give any deck that relies
on a single or a few vampires (like many of my
favorite single-vampire toy decks) high moments
of annoyance with the Temptations, but as a serious
deck it's not a contender. Not enough stealth,
not enough bleed, not enough defence, not enough
speed.
Do try again.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Michael F. Tomkins" <m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> a écrit dans le
message news: m.tomkins-61DAB...@newshost.anu.edu.au...
> In article <8vhsfq$12t5$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>, go...@best.com (Gomi no
> Sensei) wrote:
> >> > DotB and Misdirection are still strong, useful cards. Chainsaw is
> > wallpaper. DotB is not. I trust you see the difference. Sleeping Mind
> > is quite good vs. 2nd Tradition/Eternal Vigilance, say.
>> Not as strong as they were.
?? You can call a referendum without using stealth.
Sleeping mind is also very powerful against animalism untap car. A lot of
Gangrel Bleed bounce (via Dominate) rely on untapping with Rat's warning.
Sleping mind can really screw them .
r.
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message news:
5vcq1tko4s3cf6vh0...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:19:38 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"> especially 2nd Tradition. Also consider that tapped vampires may not> block anything anyway; a vampire must be untapped to block.
> Therefore, Wake's phrasing of "as if" untapped.
[...]
> A lot of people made this error. Nevertheless, it was an error, as no
> tapped vampire may ever block an action
Are you sure of this ? the wording on wake /evenig's freshness and Forced
Awakening is clear: can play reaction cards and ATTEMPT TO BLOCK AS IF
UNTAPPED. So tapped campire can still block actions. Does Sleeping mind text
overruns Wake' s one ?
Else we're 25 players out there playing the wrong way.
please explain me how it does work !
r.
"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote:
> "Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message news:> > "Michael F. Tomkins"> > especially 2nd Tradition. Also consider that tapped vampires may
> > not block anything anyway; a vampire must be untapped to block.
> > Therefore, Wake's phrasing of "as if" untapped.> [...]> > A lot of people made this error. Nevertheless, it was an error, as> > no tapped vampire may ever block an action>
> Are you sure of this ? the wording on wake /evenig's freshness and
> Forced Awakening is clear: can play reaction cards and ATTEMPT TO
> BLOCK AS IF UNTAPPED. So tapped campire can still block actions.
> Does Sleeping mind text overruns Wake' s one ?
> Else we're 25 players out there playing the wrong way.
> please explain me how it does work !
Superior Sleeping Mind makes it impossible for a tapped minion to
untap. Thus a tapped vampire cannot play 2nd Tradition, Rat's Warning,
or Guard Dogs.
A tapped vampire could still play WwEF or Forced Awakening, since,
as many people have said in this thread, that doesn't actually
untap the vampire.
The Sabbat wording of Sleeping Mind superior also stated, redundantly
with the normal rules of the game, that tapped minions cannot block
the action. Some groups read that as preventing Wake, when actually
it just restated a basic rule (and the basic rules do not prevent
Wake).
Normal (non-Superior) Sleeping Mind will prevent the chosen vampire
from blocking, wake or no.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On 24 Nov 2000 08:07:18 GMT, go...@best.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote:
>In article <m.tomkins-EE7DD...@newshost.anu.edu.au>,>Michael F. Tomkins <m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>>>Crypt:
>>Arika (Vent IC) 11
>>Etrius (Trem IC) 11
>>Queen Anne (Vent Pr) 10
>>Democritus (Vent J) 10
>>Lucian (Malk J) 10
>>Ulugh Beg (Trem J) 10
>>Marty Lechtansi (Nosf) 9
>>Roxanne (Malk) 9
>>Gilbert Duane (Malk Pr) 7
>>Gregor Anderson (Malk Pr) 7
>>Mariel (Malk) 7
>>Didi Meyers (Malk) 5>>>17 Masters:
>>1 Dreams of the Sphinx
>>5 Minion Tap
>>2 Sudden Reversal>>7 Temptation of Greater Power>>1 Tomb of Rameses III>>This isn't even a good deck. As an example of
>a 'regressive' deck (whatever the term means),
>it's laughable. It'll give any deck that relies
>on a single or a few vampires (like many of my
>favorite single-vampire toy decks) high moments
>of annoyance with the Temptations, but as a serious
>deck it's not a contender. Not enough stealth,
>not enough bleed, not enough defence, not enough
>speed.
With only three Justicars in the crypt, it's asking an awful lot to
even see any of those Temptations played. I was sort of amused at
that, myself.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 02:00:55 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
<m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>In article <8vl7jm$2al5$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>, go...@best.com (Gomi no>Sensei) wrote:
>>> This isn't even a good deck. As an example of
>> a 'regressive' deck (whatever the term means),
>> it's laughable. It'll give any deck that relies
>> on a single or a few vampires (like many of my
>> favorite single-vampire toy decks) high moments
>> of annoyance with the Temptations, but as a serious
>> deck it's not a contender. Not enough stealth,
>> not enough bleed, not enough defence, not enough
>> speed.
>>>> Do try again.>
>Oh sorry, 4 minions in you sixth turn is not enough? (all with DOM, most
>with votes and some able to use the 2nd's/5th's and Temp) Do try and
>understand how the deck works.
Gee, let's try. This is your crypt.
Arika (Vent IC) 11
Etrius (Trem IC) 11
Queen Anne (Vent Pr) 10
Democritus (Vent J) 10
Lucian (Malk J) 10
Ulugh Beg (Trem J) 10
Marty Lechtansi (Nosf) 9
Roxanne (Malk) 9
Gilbert Duane (Malk Pr) 7
Gregor Anderson (Malk Pr) 7
Mariel (Malk) 7
Didi Meyers (Malk) 5
How exactly do you plan on getting 4 minions out by your sixth turn?
Your first *good* minion will take you 3 turns to activate, because
it's a 9-cap or higher. You have one Tomb of Ramses, so you MIGHT be
able to get someone out a little earlier, but in a 90-card library the
odds of you getting the Tomb in time to matter aren't even in double
digits. Your 7-caps can *only* Govern to that single 5-cap, so if you
get one of those out first, you're screwed unless you have that 5-cap
handy as well... relying even more on luck. Decks that rely on luck
tend to get, well, unlucky.
You only have 5 Minion Taps, so you're extremely vulnerable to getting
nuked before you ever get more than two minions. You only have 3
Wakes, and only half your crypt can use the 2nd Traditions, two of
whom won't be your first minion out because they're 7-caps. 10
Obedience will save you against a combat predator, but they'll jam
your hand if you aren't blocking anyone; and with only 5 intercept
cards, you won't be blocking much of anything.
If your first Minion Tap gets Suddened, you're screwed, as you don't
cycle very many cards at all per turn, so have very little hope of
getting to one of the other 4.
>Stealth, the deck usually acts with +1 stealth. Can push it to 3
>regularly.
So the deck is vulnerable to early intercept, and highly vulnerable to
2nd Tradition. Sure, it may get a couple actions off, but it doesn't
seem to have any reliable stealth; again, because of the 20 Governs
and 10 Obediences, you just can't move through your hand at all.
>Defence, I have not come across a combat deck that can cycle without
>getting into combat.
one Haven Uncovered will ruin your day, though.
>Speed, it's main weakness. Though I get a 5th turn, your screwed.
I doubt that, really. That thing looks like a recipe for major hand
jam.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 03:18:26 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
<m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>> la la la la la, more airy bullshit that will never see the light of
>> day. Cmon, buddy, cough up. I bet this is nothing but delusional
>> fantasy, myself. Step up to the plate and show us.>>Derk your a la la yourself.
I still don't see any deck coming from you. Until we see the deck, it
doesn't exist. If it's so good, then telling people about it in
advance won't matter, will it?
>> Translation: It doesn't exist and you're just full of shit :) Time
>> to put up or shut up for you, I'm thinking. So put up already.>>I'm not the one that is swarking. The deck will be posted (for your
>diatribe and abuse) once it has been played in a tournament. And sorry,
>it looks like it will have 5*12 and 2*6.
I seem to remember you saying "time to build a regressive abusive
deck", and "this deck will be titled 'THE DECK THAT WILL BE
ERRATAED'". Sure sounds like you're running your mouth, don't it?
Again, put up or shut up.
>> >Other regressive decks.
>> >Masika, Clan Imp, MN and anything else. MN and Malk untap.
>>
>> You think this is abusive? It's fun as hell, sure, but it takes a lot
>> of effort to set up, and it's real easy to make it go "boom". The
>> easiest way is to block the Clan Impersonation. The second easiest
>> way is just to burn the Madness Network. The THIRD easiest way is
>> just to kill Masika's ass, since before he gets a Secure Haven or an
>> Assault Rifle he's got a big-ass target on his forehead.
>>
>> This deck isn't remotely abusive.>>Ahh, you wanted something that did it in turn 3.
No, I just wanted something that was abusive. You know, abusive; bad
enough so that something needs to be done about the deck? Masika
doing his Clan Impersonation bit isn't anywhere near abusive; there
are lots of ways to stop it that are very commonly seen, especially in
tournaments.
>> >Guardian Angel Second Trad deck (WALL from hell).
>>
>> Generally fails to oust its prey. Loses to Forgotten Labyrinth in any
>> form (Nossie Vote Rules), loses to Night Moves/Spying Mission, loses
>> to any weenie horde (you don't have enough 2nd traditions), and gets
>> the shit kicked out of it by combat (your vampire eventually runs out
>> of combat defense and gets killed, and all those 2nd traditions jam
>> your hand).>>I'ld just like to point you to Ben O's deck that came first a Canberra
>tournament. It blocked a Lost in Crowds/Night Moves at Superior (we were
>impressed). Guardian Angel gives you 1 intercept on bleeds and prevents
>1 damage a combat. It repeated Block/Thrown Gate about 30 times.
I am familiar with Guardian Angel's text. I still don't see what this
deck would do against a good stealth-vote deck, OR against a good
combat deck. Preventing one point out of 7 isn't going to do you much
good, and Thrown Gate is only one maneuver. Even if you get two
Guardian Angels out and you can prevent TWO, your vampire will die and
all those 2-pool Angels will go away. And how do you oust people?
Seems like your prey would get a free ride for a long time.
Nope. Not abusive.
>> >Garou dodge/press, weenie Gangrel.
>>
>> Loses to people blocking the Garou action, killing the Garou, or
>> stealing the Garou. Weenie Gangrel can't get past 2nd Tradition with
>> inferior Protean stealth.>>Repeat after me. Chandler who? Rapid change, Earth Control is 3 versus 2
>at pro? and someone was going on about getting wenies acting before
>others having vamps to block.
When it doesn't matter which of 6 weenies you get, and it doesn't
require superior of the discipline, and you don't CARE if people block
you... yes. When you require one specific weenie with superior, then
it gets a little trickier. And that doesn't address the issue of
people killing or stealing the Garou, which is pretty damn likely to
happen.
Garou are cool and all, but I still don't see this deck as "abusive".
>> >Temptation of Greater Power.
>>
>> Legbiter tried to break this. It's very powerful. But the novelty
>> value is wearing off, and people are finding ways to deal with it.
>> Most of them involve "kill the Justicar." It was very nasty for
>> awhile, but I'm still not convinced that TGP requires any errata.>>I think coupled on a bloat deck, it classifies.
Having played against multiple versions of this deck from Legbiter,
some of which were bloat and some of which weren't... I'm still
shaking my head a bit. TGP doesn't do much at all against 4-caps or
under, and there are a lot of those out there.
>> >Weenie bleed.
>>
>> Duh, isn't that what I was just holding up for you above as a good
>> reason to errata Misdirection? Duh? DUH? Hello? Anyone in there?>>No, you went on about Misdirection, my gripe was sleeping mind.
If Wake couldn't beat Sleeping Mind, the old Misdirection/SM deck
would have murdered everyone, as there would be no defense against it.
Hence, the original clarification to SM.
Thinking that SM is wallpaper now earns you a smack with a
clue-by-four.
>> >Fortitude hoards.
>>
>> I assume you mean Trap/Undead Persistence weenie mobs who all bleed
>> for 1 lots. Or just plain old skin-of-rock weenie mobs who computer
>> hack. These die miserably to any fast deck behind them, due to the
>> fact that Fortitude is a shitty defense against anything EXCEPT
>> combat, and so a mono-Fortitude deck really relies on not having the
>> Ventrue Voters behind it, or Marijava Ghoul Toreador, or, or, or...
>> take your pick.
>>
>> Again, far from abusive.>>Weren't we going for regressive repeditive :)
To quote one Michael Tomkins,
"I'm really going to have to make a regressive abusive deck with say 5
cards just to prove it still can be done."
So I'm still waiting for abusive. Repetitive is easy. But making
something actually HAPPEN, now that's the trick.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8vl7jm$2al5$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>, go...@best.com (Gomi no
Sensei) wrote:
> This isn't even a good deck. As an example of
> a 'regressive' deck (whatever the term means),
> it's laughable. It'll give any deck that relies
> on a single or a few vampires (like many of my
> favorite single-vampire toy decks) high moments
> of annoyance with the Temptations, but as a serious
> deck it's not a contender. Not enough stealth,
> not enough bleed, not enough defence, not enough
> speed.
>
> Do try again.
Oh sorry, 4 minions in you sixth turn is not enough? (all with DOM, most
with votes and some able to use the 2nd's/5th's and Temp) Do try and
understand how the deck works.
Stealth, the deck usually acts with +1 stealth. Can push it to 3
regularly.
Bleed? Who said that the 20 governs were there for bleed! That comes
later ;)
Defence, I have not come across a combat deck that can cycle without
getting into combat.
Speed, it's main weakness. Though I get a 5th turn, your screwed.
--
I'm so small/ m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au \ /\ / | | | _ /|
I can fit under the door/ Michael F. Tomkins \/ \/ | | | \'o.O'
I was here yesterday.../ University of Canberra /\ /\ | | | =(___)=
This is a recording./ Australia. / \/ \ | | | U
In article <rp3s1tknnqqav02pu...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray
<lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:42:48 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
> <m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
Misdirection rant removed. This was about Sleeping mind.
> >> >> >I'm really going to have to make a regressive abusive deck with
> >> >> >say 5
> >> >> >cards just to prove it still can be done.
> >> Translation: You can't and are now having to back off ;)
> >
> >Translation: Check out the next Canberra Tourney report for a deck
> >called "The Deck that will be Errataed". Mind you I have a nasty ability
>
> la la la la la, more airy bullshit that will never see the light of
> day. Cmon, buddy, cough up. I bet this is nothing but delusional
> fantasy, myself. Step up to the plate and show us.
Derk your a la la yourself.
> Translation: It doesn't exist and you're just full of shit :) Time
> to put up or shut up for you, I'm thinking. So put up already.
I'm not the one that is swarking. The deck will be posted (for your
diatribe and abuse) once it has been played in a tournament. And sorry,
it looks like it will have 5*12 and 2*6.
> >Other regressive decks.> >Masika, Clan Imp, MN and anything else. MN and Malk untap.
>
> You think this is abusive? It's fun as hell, sure, but it takes a lot
> of effort to set up, and it's real easy to make it go "boom". The
> easiest way is to block the Clan Impersonation. The second easiest
> way is just to burn the Madness Network. The THIRD easiest way is
> just to kill Masika's ass, since before he gets a Secure Haven or an
> Assault Rifle he's got a big-ass target on his forehead.
>
> This deck isn't remotely abusive.
Ahh, you wanted something that did it in turn 3.
> >Guardian Angel Second Trad deck (WALL from hell).>
> Generally fails to oust its prey. Loses to Forgotten Labyrinth in any
> form (Nossie Vote Rules), loses to Night Moves/Spying Mission, loses
> to any weenie horde (you don't have enough 2nd traditions), and gets
> the shit kicked out of it by combat (your vampire eventually runs out
> of combat defense and gets killed, and all those 2nd traditions jam
> your hand).
I'ld just like to point you to Ben O's deck that came first a Canberra
tournament. It blocked a Lost in Crowds/Night Moves at Superior (we were
impressed). Guardian Angel gives you 1 intercept on bleeds and prevents
1 damage a combat. It repeated Block/Thrown Gate about 30 times.
> >Garou dodge/press, weenie Gangrel.>
> Loses to people blocking the Garou action, killing the Garou, or
> stealing the Garou. Weenie Gangrel can't get past 2nd Tradition with
> inferior Protean stealth.
Repeat after me. Chandler who? Rapid change, Earth Control is 3 versus 2
at pro? and someone was going on about getting wenies acting before
others having vamps to block.
> >Temptation of Greater Power.>
> Legbiter tried to break this. It's very powerful. But the novelty
> value is wearing off, and people are finding ways to deal with it.
> Most of them involve "kill the Justicar." It was very nasty for
> awhile, but I'm still not convinced that TGP requires any errata.
I think coupled on a bloat deck, it classifies.
> >Weenie bleed.
>
> Duh, isn't that what I was just holding up for you above as a good
> reason to errata Misdirection? Duh? DUH? Hello? Anyone in there?
No, you went on about Misdirection, my gripe was sleeping mind.
> >Fortitude hoards.>
> I assume you mean Trap/Undead Persistence weenie mobs who all bleed
> for 1 lots. Or just plain old skin-of-rock weenie mobs who computer
> hack. These die miserably to any fast deck behind them, due to the
> fact that Fortitude is a shitty defense against anything EXCEPT
> combat, and so a mono-Fortitude deck really relies on not having the
> Ventrue Voters behind it, or Marijava Ghoul Toreador, or, or, or...
> take your pick.
>
> Again, far from abusive.
Weren't we going for regressive repeditive :)
--
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <m65t1tcqoqfls9cid...@4ax.com>,
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 03:18:26 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
><m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:>>I'ld just like to point you to Ben O's deck that came first a Canberra
>>tournament. It blocked a Lost in Crowds/Night Moves at Superior (we were
>>impressed). Guardian Angel gives you 1 intercept on bleeds and prevents
>>1 damage a combat. It repeated Block/Thrown Gate about 30 times.>I am familiar with Guardian Angel's text. I still don't see what this
>deck would do against a good stealth-vote deck, OR against a good
>combat deck. Preventing one point out of 7 isn't going to do you much
>good, and Thrown Gate is only one maneuver. Even if you get two
>Guardian Angels out and you can prevent TWO, your vampire will die and
>all those 2-pool Angels will go away. And how do you oust people?
>Seems like your prey would get a free ride for a long time.
I should like to point out that any deck relying heavily on
Seduction, Elder Impersonation, or (even rewritten) Misdirection
will give this deck such an assfucking it won't even be pretty.
Single-point-of-failure -- you want to layer the GA's on one
vampire, to stack the permacept v. bleeds. One vamp is easily
gotten around. If you spread the GAs around, you don't have enough
serious intercept and are bleeding yourself for 2 each time you
play one.
>Garou are cool and all, but I still don't see this deck as "abusive".
A dear friend of mine (Ted Prodromou) had a Garou/memories of mortality
deck that was pretty friggin' nasty. Not 'abusive,' but strong. Vulnerable
as all hell to intercept -- he leavened the Earth Control/form of mist
with some of the 4/5 caps in the crypt and Horrific Countenance. This
made things expensive enough that it wasn't really broken. Mangled my
single-vampire decks all to hell, I can tell you, but a serious deck
would have had a chance to cope. I liked its effect on the metagame, because
it encouraged balanced crypts -- weenies died, one-big-vampire decks died,
decks with a spread of 2-to-10-caps had a fighting chance.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <m65t1tcqoqfls9cid...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray
<lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 03:18:26 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
> <m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>
> >> la la la la la, more airy bullshit that will never see the light of
> >> day. Cmon, buddy, cough up. I bet this is nothing but delusional
> >> fantasy, myself. Step up to the plate and show us.
> >
> >Derk your a la la yourself.
>
> I still don't see any deck coming from you. Until we see the deck, it
> doesn't exist. If it's so good, then telling people about it in
> advance won't matter, will it?
>
> >> Translation: It doesn't exist and you're just full of shit :) Time
> >> to put up or shut up for you, I'm thinking. So put up already.
> >
> >I'm not the one that is swarking. The deck will be posted (for your
> >diatribe and abuse) once it has been played in a tournament. And sorry,
> >it looks like it will have 5*12 and 2*6.
>
> I seem to remember you saying "time to build a regressive abusive
> deck", and "this deck will be titled 'THE DECK THAT WILL BE
> ERRATAED'". Sure sounds like you're running your mouth, don't it?
> Again, put up or shut up.
I have to wait 3 months to play this deck in a tournament, plenty of
time for another rules team ruling.
Misdirection wasn't broken, until you put it in the right deck.
Misdirection wasn't errated right?
> >I'ld just like to point you to Ben O's deck that came first a Canberra
> >tournament. It blocked a Lost in Crowds/Night Moves at Superior (we were
> >impressed). Guardian Angel gives you 1 intercept on bleeds and prevents
> >1 damage a combat. It repeated Block/Thrown Gate about 30 times.
>
> I am familiar with Guardian Angel's text. I still don't see what this
> deck would do against a good stealth-vote deck, OR against a good
> combat deck. Preventing one point out of 7 isn't going to do you much
> good, and Thrown Gate is only one maneuver. Even if you get two
> Guardian Angels out and you can prevent TWO, your vampire will die and
> all those 2-pool Angels will go away. And how do you oust people?
> Seems like your prey would get a free ride for a long time.
>
> Nope. Not abusive.
Try stacking 8 of them on a vamp! Volker is the cheapest prince, Rake
next. And then put that in a block combat deck. And on vote, how is it
passing against princes/justicars?
> >> Duh, isn't that what I was just holding up for you above as a good
> >> reason to errata Misdirection? Duh? DUH? Hello? Anyone in there?
> >
> >No, you went on about Misdirection, my gripe was sleeping mind.
>
> If Wake couldn't beat Sleeping Mind, the old Misdirection/SM deck
> would have murdered everyone, as there would be no defense against it.
> Hence, the original clarification to SM.
Read the original SM text. inf "a tapped vampire cant block" SUP "tapped
minions can't block" The clarification on the VTES site was overlooked
by the Canberra playgroup.
<Rest of baiting by Derek snipped>
--
I am a Bear of Very Michael F. Tomkins
Little Brain, and long m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au
words bother me. University of Canberra, Australia.
- Winnie the Pooh http://student.canberra.edu.au/~u964617/
On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, Michael F. Tomkins wrote:
> Misdirection wasn't broken, until you put it in the right deck.
> Misdirection wasn't errated right?
Not true. There were many rumblings about Misdirection being potentially
broken for al ong time before peopel started abusing it in really hyper
weenie Dominate decks. Not all of these were supported or paid much
attention to, but many people did debate whether or not it was broken for
a long time. I know, I did myself. Post available if really necessary,
it'll be on my computer somewhere.
> > all those 2-pool Angels will go away. And how do you oust people?
> > Seems like your prey would get a free ride for a long time.
> >
> > Nope. Not abusive.
>
> Try stacking 8 of them on a vamp! Volker is the cheapest prince, Rake
> next. And then put that in a block combat deck. And on vote, how is it
> passing against princes/justicars?
The more difficult part is stacking 8 of them on one vamp. You end up
with a heavy master oriented deck, since you can't search for masters in
any way, and having to use master phases. And all it would take is a
stray torporisation effect to send the vampire crashing down - a copy of
Coma, a set of non-combat damage, unpreventabel combat damage, continuous
Trap fortitude decks and the like. It's all possible.
And when you're trying to stack up 8 of them on a single vampire, you do
put a huge "Hit me" sign above their head. Decks have ways of dealign
with people. For instance, guardian Angel does *nothing* to provide
intercept against a Banihsment deck. In your prince and justicar deck, I
just play ths Sabbat closed session variant, play Awe, maybe, and force a
Banishment through.
Vulnerabilities all over the place. Strength, too, if you can pull it off
- but that's how many decks worjk. If you can ste the right things up,
you can do wonderful things, but if you can set things up, other people
have let you or you've had a bit of luck. IF other people ca'nt affect
what your'e doing, they should.
> Read the original SM text. inf "a tapped vampire cant block" SUP "tapped
> minions can't block" The clarification on the VTES site was overlooked
> by the Canberra playgroup.
Quite possibly. There are a number of clarifications that are overlooked
by a number of people.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"Steve: Yeah, well that's one of the advantages of being a sad, lonely
fairy, I guess. You get to learn how to be a spy."
- Stephen Fry, Making History
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message news:
8vlql9$vla$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote:
> > "Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message news:
> > > "Michael F. Tomkins"> > > especially 2nd Tradition. Also consider that tapped vampires may
> > > not block anything anyway; a vampire must be untapped to block.
> > > Therefore, Wake's phrasing of "as if" untapped.> > [...]> > > A lot of people made this error. Nevertheless, it was an error, as> > > no tapped vampire may ever block an action
> >
> > Are you sure of this ? the wording on wake /evenig's freshness and
> > Forced Awakening is clear: can play reaction cards and ATTEMPT TO
> > BLOCK AS IF UNTAPPED. So tapped campire can still block actions.
> > Does Sleeping mind text overruns Wake' s one ?
> > Else we're 25 players out there playing the wrong way.
> > please explain me how it does work !
>
> Superior Sleeping Mind makes it impossible for a tapped minion to
> untap. Thus a tapped vampire cannot play 2nd Tradition, Rat's Warning,
> or Guard Dogs.
> A tapped vampire could still play WwEF or Forced Awakening, since,
> as many people have said in this thread, that doesn't actually
> untap the vampire.
>
> The Sabbat wording of Sleeping Mind superior also stated, redundantly
> with the normal rules of the game, that tapped minions cannot block
> the action. Some groups read that as preventing Wake, when actually
> it just restated a basic rule (and the basic rules do not prevent
> Wake).
>
> Normal (non-Superior) Sleeping Mind will prevent the chosen vampire
> from blocking, wake or no.
>
> --
> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
> Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
>
Thank you again, Mr LSJ !
;)
reyda
In article <l03p1t4b9m15fes7v...@4ax.com>,
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:18:17 +1100, "Michael F. Tomkins"
> <m.to...@student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>
> >In article <8vh0o9$vps$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
wolf.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> alhazre...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> > Now that misdirection has been changed, can sleeping mind be
used as
> >> > printed?
> >>
> >> Sure. Sleeping Mind doesn't have any errata.
> >> Also the the most current card text (Sabbat War).
> >> But note, even the Sabbat card text wouldn't keep a vampire
> >> from using Wake to block (except at inferior), since the
> >> superior just redundantly states that tapped minions cannot
> >> block, which is the general rule.
> >
> >Whoa! Another SW totally annihilated card. The Sabbat Sleeping Mind
was
> >interpreted by our group that tapped vamps could not block, eg a
vamp
> >using wake with evenings freshness could not block. There is
an "and" in
>> This has never been true, even with the original version of the card.
> A vampire who is reacting "as if" untapped is considered to be
> untapped; that is the whole point of the "as if". The card was never
> wallpaper; it still was an excellent solution to Guard Dogs, Rat's
> Warning, and 2nd Tradition, all of which were EXTREMELY COMMON to see,> especially 2nd Tradition. Also consider that tapped vampires may not
> block anything anyway; a vampire must be untapped to block.
> Therefore, Wake's phrasing of "as if" untapped.
>> If it were NOT possible for Wake to "beat" it, then
> Misdirection/Sleeping Mind decks would run roughshod over anything in
> their path that didn't pack 10 Sudden Reversals, as nothing could
> possibly block it. Or do you think that Dominate was somehow
> underpowered beforehand?
>> >the card text of the Sabbat printing implying that it is an
additional
> >restriction. WWEF states that the vampire may react "as if"
untapped,
> >the vampire however is not untapped. The only way a tapped vampire
could
> >block was with WWEF. A redundancy is not a good way to describe what
is
> >essentially a card rewriting.
>> Current card text, from White Wolf's website and reference for those
> of us who didn't get a Sleeping Mind with our Sabbat War:
>
> Cardtype: Action Modifier
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Dominate
> Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Choose a
> tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to block this
> action. (S) Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced.
> Minions cannot untap during this action.
>> So, at inferior, one vampire may not block; it is different from
> Seduction because at inferior, you may stop older vampires from
> blocking. Inferior is definitely not wallpaper.
>
> At superior, vampires may not untap. Stops Eternal Vigilance now,
> too, which believe you me you're going to want to be doing. A card
> you'd put 10 of in every deck? Nope. Wallpaper? HELL no.
>> >What is the point of Sleeping Mind if it is not a more expensive
general
> >Seduction. Congrats, another wallpaper card along with Drawing out
the
> >Beast (unlike terror frenzy at inf, you cannot get rid of DotB hand
jam)
> >and Misdirection (tap A minion, Woo Hoo not!).
>> The point of Sleeping Mind is to either stop one vampire, no matter
> what, from blocking (at INFERIOR, not SUPERIOR dominate), or to
> prevent a whole class of vampires (those with Animalism, 2nd
> tradition, and Eternal Vigilance) from untapping and blocking.
>> As far as the rest, I have no sympathy here. Don't want DotB hand
> jam? Don't put 20 in your deck. Think it's wallpaper? It still
> stops someone from maneuvering away, and from using equipment. That's
> pretty damn powerful.
>> And Misdirection can go get fucked, for all I care. If you didn't see
> the weenie Dominate and Presence hordes that made all-too-effective
> use of this card, then you haven't been playing anywhere near the
> USA... we saw MUCH too much of it. It's still useful; you can tap one
> minion, and frequently people will leave one minion with permanent
> intercept untapped. So you tap him. But you can no longer tap out
> all your prey's vampires, and all HIS prey's vampires, so as to get 2
> VPs in one turn with 8 weenie minions and lots of bleed cards. Fuck
> that shit. Misdirection was OVERDUE.
>
And you can still play 3 misdirections in one turn with RoG and
Parthenon in play...and wwith Anarch troublemaker you got 5 tapped.
Ouch :P
[ quoted text not captured ]