[LSJ] "When an action is successful..." and House of Sorrow

How long does the "when an action is successful..." window stay open? Specifically, if one of my minions performs a successful action requiring Necromancy and I have both Tower of London and House of Sorrow untapped, may I gain two pool by tapping Tower, tapping House to untap Tower, and then tapping Tower again, all before that window closes? John Eno

[ quoted text not captured ] This seems like the same wording as on Andre Leroux ("when a minion you control bleeds successfully..."), which you ruled to be usable only once each time the trigger is activated (which I agree with - he's broken enough as it is without making things worse). How come the Tower can be tapped twice in response to the trigger, but Andre can only use his ability once?

[ quoted text not captured ] Mmm. Good point. I was only considering the duration of the window, not focusing enough on the repeated use of the ability. REVERSAL. While the window is indeed long enough, triggered abilities still cannot be used multiple times in the window following the single trigger.

On Dec 29, 1:42 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > REVERSAL. While the window is indeed long enough, triggered abilities still > cannot be used multiple times in the window following the single trigger.- Hide quoted text - If a theroetical card in play could be tapped for two different abilities, both of which used the same trigger event, could both abilities be used in conjunction with House of Sorrow? eg: Flames of Tension Master. Put this card into play. Tap this card when a minion controlled by your prey leaves the ready region to cause your prey to burn one pool. Tap this card when a minion controlled by your prey leaves the ready region to gain one pool. If this card existed, and I had both it and House of Sorrow in play untapped, and torporized one of my prey's vampires, could I both gain a pool cause my prey to burn a pool? I assume that I could, since I think that the two different effects count as different "triggered abilities." (Side note: choosing Flames of Insurrection to template the text for my fabricated card made me realize for the first time that Flames of Insurrection has no "Put this card into play" text. Errata, presumably?) Or to use a non-theoretical example (but one which I'm not sure is totally analogous to the above one): I control Midget and Andre Leroux. Midget bleeds successfully. May I both play Patterns in the Chaos to look at my prey's hand and then use Andre's ability to reduce the bleed by one? John Eno

Kushiel wrote: > (Side note: choosing Flames of Insurrection to template the text for > my fabricated card made me realize for the first time that Flames of > Insurrection has no "Put this card into play" text. Errata, > presumably?) Sure. Unique. Call a referendum to burn. Must be in play. I'll correct the official text. > Or to use a non-theoretical example (but one which I'm not sure is > totally analogous to the above one): I control Midget and Andre > Leroux. Midget bleeds successfully. May I both play Patterns in the > Chaos to look at my prey's hand and then use Andre's ability to reduce > the bleed by one? Patterns is played after resolving the bleed. Andre (and Spying Mission) are played before.

On Dec 29, 4:03 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Patterns is played after resolving the bleed. > Andre (and Spying Mission) are played before. So "When a vampire you control successfully bleeds..." (Andre's text) and "Only usable when a bleed would be successful..." (Spying Mission's text) are synonymous, but "Only usable when a bleed is successful..." (Patterns' text) isn't? It looks to me like Spying Mission is the outlier of the three, given that it has the "would be" verb conjugation that the other two lack. Sorry to be a pain in the neck, but I'm trying to figure out the reasoning behind this. John Eno

Also, you didn't actually answer my first question: :) If a theroetical card in play could be tapped for two different abilities, both of which used the same trigger event, could both abilities be used in conjunction with House of Sorrow? eg: Flames of Tension Master. Put this card into play. Tap this card when a minion controlled by your prey leaves the ready region to cause your prey to burn one pool. Tap this card when a minion controlled by your prey leaves the ready region to gain one pool. If this card existed, and I had both it and House of Sorrow in play untapped, and torporized one of my prey's vampires, could I both gain a pool and cause my prey to burn a pool? I assume that I could, since I think that the two different effects count as different "triggered abilities." John Eno

[ quoted text not captured ] The effect of modifying the bleed amount is necessarily applied before resolving the bleed.

On Dec 29, 1:42 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] So does that mean I can't tap a Corporal Reservoir to prevent a damage then tap House of Sorrow to untap it and prevent another point of damage?

[ quoted text not captured ] Also does Corporal Reservoir untap text get around House of Sorrow's does not untap text. Corporal Reservoir Type: Master Master: trifle. Put this card on any Black Hand vampire. This vampire may tap this card to prevent 1 point of damage in combat or to gain a blood. This card doesn't untap as normal. This vampire may burn a blood to untap this card during his or her untap phase. House of Sorrow Type: Master Cost: 1 pool Master: unique location. Tap to untap any card you control that is not a minion. If you do so, neither that card nor this location untap as normal on your next untap phase. Thank you.

[ quoted text not captured ] No, it doesn't, since the key bit (re: trigger) doesn't apply. > Also does Corporal Reservoir untap text get around House of Sorrow's > does not untap text. Yeah. Card text. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Dec 29 2008, 3:26 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Kushiel wrote: > > On Dec 29, 4:03 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > >> Patterns is played after resolving the bleed. > >>Andre(andSpyingMission) are played before. > > > So "When a vampire you control successfully bleeds..." (Andre'stext) > > and "Only usable when a bleed would be successful..." (Spying > >Mission'stext) are synonymous, but "Only usable when a bleed is > > successful..." (Patterns' text) isn't? It looks to me likeSpying > >Missionis the outlier of the three, given that it has the "would be" > > verb conjugation that the other two lack. > > > Sorry to be a pain in the neck, but I'm trying to figure out the > > reasoning behind this. > > The effect of modifying the bleed amount is necessarily applied before resolving > the bleed. > And one last thing to be sure... If Lubomira bleeds a methuselah with a ready titled vampire, and Andre reduces her bleed to 0, she still untaps as normal next turn, right (aside from any other effects). Lubo's text says: "If Lubomira successfully bleeds a Methuselah who controls a ready titled vampire, she does not untap as normal during her next untap phase." And technically, Andre's text says "when a vampire you control successfully bleeds." So, I could see if Lubo would stay tapped since Andre's ability triggers off a successful bleed, and Lubo's detriment triggers off a successful bleed. However, if that was true, then I would argue that you should also get the edge before Andre reduces the bleed. However, as you say above, "the effect of modifying the bleed amount is necessarily applied before resolving the bleed," which would indicate that technically Andre's ability is used just before the bleed is actually successful (just like Spying Mission's "when a bleed would be successful"), and thus nothing that triggers on a successful bleed would happen if Andre makes it unsuccessful before it is fully resolved... Right?

[ quoted text not captured ] I think that, especially after this discussion, such a future card would read "Tap this card when a minion controlled by your prey leaves the ready region. Either your prey burns one pool or you gain one pool (your choice)." or someting similar, to make it a single triggered effect. FWIW, I find the idea of 'cards can only trigger once per trigger- effect, regardless of untapping or window-length' to be a lot more intuitive than otherwise. It's one of the reasons I hated the MtG stack rules after 6th Ed so much. - Teeka

Chris Berger wrote: > And one last thing to be sure... If Lubomira bleeds a methuselah with > a ready titled vampire, and Andre reduces her bleed to 0, she still > untaps as normal next turn, right (aside from any other effects). > Lubo's text says: "If Lubomira successfully bleeds a Methuselah who > controls a ready titled vampire, she does not untap as normal during > her next untap phase." Yes.