Wake too Powerful? DEBATE

I think Steve sums it up pretty well, so i post this to Everyone!!! ------ From mag...@umdsun2.umd.umich.eduTue May 7 22:56:54 1996 To: Cyber...@aol.com Subject: Re: Wake too Powerful? (Was: Jyhad/VTES question) I have to agree Misdirection becomes way too powerful. And of course there is some thought to when to play them... (BTW: We play it's a Thaumaturgy card, not clan specific) You havbe to remmeber though, it'st's a Universal restriction... If you dont have any, then your prey/predator doesnt have any either. Therfore instead of wondering when you are going to play them ( some thought ) You have to always plan to leave a defense, and plan all out attacks very carefully I also like it because I am a V;TM player,and it is more theme oriented.... There are still many cards that allow you to untap/not tap such as earth meld, deflection, Majesty, Obedience, Bruha Frenzy, Telepathic counter, and also cat guidance, rats Warning, 2nd tradition, Archon Investigation, etc... BY getting rid of these 'must have to be fair since everyone else uses them" cards, such as wakes, Blood dolls, Minion taps, we all have more room in the decks for theme oriented play, while mainting an overall balance Please note the above card list comprises Protean, Auspex, Animalism, Presence, Dominate. Therefore the following clans all have the potential for a single vamp to stop a several massive Bleeds: Torries Brujah Battle Junkies Pompous Ventrue Gangrel Dogs Scummy Nosferatu Power Hungry Giovanni and Tremere Micheivious malks Ravnos Rapists In short... everyone *** Everyone Responds To Pain *** Regards, Steve "The Evil" Sierb # Monroe Auto Equipment Company # [W] : (313) 243-8003 # [I] : mag...@umdesun2.umd.umich.edu #

(Steve) mag...@umdsun2.umd.umich.edu wrote: > I have to agree Misdirection becomes way too powerful. And unfortunately, you don't answer this anywhere below... > And of course > there is some thought to when to play them... (BTW: We play it's a > Thaumaturgy card, not clan specific) As a Thaumaturgy card, my disagreements would increase, this would change the power dynamic between disciplines on top of everything else. The only reason I didn't disagree about the card screwing up clan dynamic (other than the simple untap fact) is that it is difficult to gauge by mere numbers how many each _ought_ to have. > You havbe to remmeber though, > it'st's a Universal restriction... If you dont have any, then your > prey/predator doesnt have any either. Great. If everyone suddenly had a 1 cost +2 bleed card, that would be fine too, by that logic. But actually, it would make Presence and Dominate relatively redundant and less useful than other clans, and it would swing the power towards bleeders (and hence force everyone into bleed defense). > Therfore instead of wondering > when you are going to play them ( some thought ) You have to always > plan to leave a defense, and plan all out attacks very carefully I also > like it because I am a V;TM player,and it is more theme oriented.... Actually, you might as well plan on less defense. Knowing full well that you could be tapped out by a misdirection, stealthed Jar the Soul, etc.., if you aren't Tremere, Princely, or playing animalism, you _MUST_ take everything that hits you. I can imagine a deck such as this: 25% Misdirection 50% Domain Challenge 15% Bewitching Oration 10% Blood Doll Unless there are Tremere next to you or Princes next to you, NO ONE can stop your vote. Substitute in KRC, Parity Shift, etc.., as needed. That is unbalanced. > There are still many cards that allow you to untap/not tap such as earth > meld, deflection, Majesty, Obedience, Bruha Frenzy, Telepathic counter, > and also cat guidance, rats Warning, 2nd tradition, Archon Investigation, > etc... These "untap" cards are not really untaps at all. Only rat's warning and 2nd Tradition answer Misdirection (unless Archon Investigation does, I don't know its card text). > BY getting rid of these 'must have to be fair since everyone > else uses them" cards, such as wakes, Blood dolls, Minion taps, we all > have more room in the decks for theme oriented play, while mainting an > overall balance I agree with the "badness" of "must have" cards. However, the Tremere (or Thaumaturgy) only fix makes the situation worse, not better. While must haves are bad, removing them to make an unbalanced game is worse. My own (inferior) proposal is better: replace it at the end of your next turn. LSJs fix (the one I prefer) is much better: make it an Out of turn master. > Please note the above card list comprises > Protean, Auspex, Animalism, Presence, Dominate. Therefore the following > clans all have the potential for a single vamp to stop a several massive > Bleeds: [snipped list] > In short... everyone Please note, that with regards to already being tapped out (by Misdirection (from Anyone), Distraction (from Brujah/Toreador bleeders/votes), or Jar the Soul (Giovanni Bleeders), your solution (Tremere or Thaumaturgy only) leaves these as the only answers: Princes, 2nd Tradition, vs. anything Tremere/Thaumaturgy, vs. anything Animalism, vs. bleed That leaves way too many in the cold. "I can send and receive e-mail even over the Internet"-aol commercial @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$ # Adrian Sullivan sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu Spoutingly yours 8^) # $ GAT/CS/O/WS R+++* tv&--- b++(+++)&+ t X++&-- 5->? e+*>++++ PS+&-+ @ # PE&++&- C(+++)$ UX+>+++$ N++(+) K+>++++ w---$>? M++$ r(+) z*+? 3.1# @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$

-- I agree that midirection is too powerful. In fact it is one of the banned cards in our house rules. We also have a 6cl on everthing. Although Wake is a tremere power in Vtm I think the way it is in jyhad is fine we have never really encountered a problem with it. John

Misdirection is banned in or group as well. Most of the major conventions on the east coast (Shorecon, Gamers Con, Def Con,etc.) also have Jyhad tournaments in which Misdirection is banned (i.e. the trend :) We just recently put a 4 card ceiling restriction on our decks. It seems to work well in the context of Fortitude (Skin of Steel), Pulled Fangs, and some other abusable cards and disciplines. As for Wake I have no problems. Sorry for interrupting... :) Jim -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- An apology for the Devil - it must be remembered that we have only heard one side of the case. God has written all the books. -Samuel Butler -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jim & Andrew Davis da...@spectra.net

[ quoted text not captured ] I would say that is because of the card limit, wake does not become a problem until 15%-30% of your deck is wake, it is too powerful cuz no matter who many you have it dosn't clogs your hand. In NL's wake makes misdirection useless and breaks alot of other stragies. (Not to say I favor card limits, I don't but no card limits does have a general problem that all untap cards become a little too powerful, wake being the worst.) -- Steve

On Mon, 13 May 1996, Steve Bauer x1014 wrote: <snip'd a bit> > it dosn't clogs your hand. In NL's wake makes misdirection useless and Good action are jist as important as good reaction cards (and good master cards, and good vamps, etc.). WWEF is not as powerful as any other good card in the game as it stands IMO. > breaks alot of other stragies. (Not to say I favor card limits, I don't > but no card limits does have a general problem that all untap cards become > a little too powerful, wake being the worst.) Untap cards are a problem. WWEF is far from the worst of them. Freak drive, majesty, Earth Meld (the good untap restrticted cards) are much worse. I have seen a good Brujah/Toreador or even Ventrue prince/justicar deck untap and intercept as effectively as any Tremere wake/auspex-perma-intercept deck. Change of target, seduction, lotsa stealth will make WWEF useless in most circumstances. Andre [4;31mM [34mi [35ms [36mt [0;37me [4;31mr [34mB [35mu [36mn [4;31mg [34ml [35me [Goth Code Version 2.0]: GoJu+ TJt(AnIn) B5/10Bk! cDBRw-- PSa(GSh) V++s M+D ZGo(InGn) C+2u a20= n-3 b-:-- H173 gA m-- w+! r+3 D--~% h+TAn s10 k- Rn)m( SsYy N0993WPnlw LusAZ+HzM*2WA++HdS)$(

Jim & Andrew Davis <da...@spectra.net> wrote: >Misdirection is banned in or group as well. Most of the major >conventions on the east coast (Shorecon, Gamers Con, Def Con,etc.) >also have Jyhad tournaments in which Misdirection is banned (i.e. >the trend :) Hmm. A Misdirection at the proper time can be deadly. But then again, so can any card at the proper time. A deck that's stacked with a lot of Misdirections is doomed. >We just recently put a 4 card ceiling restriction on our decks. >It seems to work well in the context of Fortitude (Skin of Steel), >Pulled Fangs, and some other abusable cards and disciplines. That's a new one - Skin of Steel abusable? May I ask how? A play style you might want to try that does a very good job of limiting abuse without resorting to card limits consists of the following two house rules : 1) No repeat actions. That is, a minion may not attempt more than one of the same type of action (call a vote, bleed, diablerize, whatever) in the same turn. This keeps infinite loops from being set up, but doesn't put the big kabosh on an untap strategy. 2) Each player may only play one Political Action card per Political Action. This prevents people from going berserk with dumping whole handfuls of PA's for extra votes all the time. I (and many players reading this group) have found these two simple house rules make building an "unstoppable" deck nigh on impossible, without having to worry about card counts. Of course, many other people reading this group think this is insane, so your milage may vary. However, it's certainly worth a shot - you might like it! -- Alec Habig, Indiana University High Energy Astrophysics aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu http://www.astro.indiana.edu/home/ahabig/ Ban the Bomb: Make the world safe for conventional warfare!

sba...@cso.geg.mot.com (Steve Bauer x1014) writes: >I would say that is because of the card limit, wake does not become a problem until >15%-30% of your deck is wake, it is too powerful cuz no matter who many you have >it dosn't clogs your hand. In NL's wake makes misdirection useless and >breaks alot of other stragies. (Not to say I favor card limits, I don't >but no card limits does have a general problem that all untap cards become >a little too powerful, wake being the worst.) And, since it doesn't clog, it makes the minimum size of the library almost meaningless. Build your twenty-card killer deck, and simply pad it to the minimum with wakeys. Toss them like mad whenever they appear in you hand, and voila! -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | "The Borg assimilated my race and http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | all I got was this lousy T-shirt" Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

da...@spectra.net (Jim & Andrew Davis) writes: >Misdirection is banned in or group as well. Most of the major >conventions on the east coast (Shorecon, Gamers Con, Def Con,etc.) >also have Jyhad tournaments in which Misdirection is banned (i.e. >the trend :) >We just recently put a 4 card ceiling restriction on our decks. >It seems to work well in the context of Fortitude (Skin of Steel), >Pulled Fangs, and some other abusable cards and disciplines. >As for Wake I have no problems. If Wake is unrestricted, then Misdirection becomes nearly walpaper. Why pay 1 (or more) pool to force an opponent to burn a card which has no cost? Just the threat of imminent Wakeys (and usually lots of them) makes Misdirection too costly to consider using. [ quoted text not captured ]

BTW, are we talkign about wake wiht evening or morning. I use mornign wiht fast decks, as sending IGo the hungry into Torpor and letting his freind mr campanion drag him out, or any other small vamopire, can be a small price to pay if there was soemthing I needed done. Also, could you sue WWMF to play a vote, and win, since everyone sis slepping???