Ancient Hearts release date?

In article <sten0013-050...@dialup-3-231.gw.umn.edu>, Jarrod P. Stenberg <sten...@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote: >Can somebody tell me the release date (or estimated date, as I have to >strain to recall a card set coming out on time) for Ancient Hearts? I >believe that's the name of the next expansion set--correct me if I'm >wrong. Or better yet, an idea of what'll be in the set? -Jasper -- /\ Jasper Phillips (Pit Fiend) ______,....----, /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|==================="""""""""""" ___,..-' `^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|======================----------"""""" \/ http://www.cs.orst.edu/~philljas/

Pit Fiend (phil...@monitor.CS.ORST.EDU) wrote: : In article <sten0013-050...@dialup-3-231.gw.umn.edu>, : Jarrod P. Stenberg <sten...@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote: : >Can somebody tell me the release date (or estimated date, as I have to : >strain to recall a card set coming out on time) for Ancient Hearts? I : >believe that's the name of the next expansion set--correct me if I'm : >wrong. : Or better yet, an idea of what'll be in the set? The word is that it'll be Followers of Set and Assamites. That is supported by the fact that in the glossary of the V:tES rulesbook, it gives a definition of Quietus and Serpentis. The expansion after that one is reputed to be on the Sabbat. -- Modest, industrious, benevolent, temperate: is that how you would have men? Good men? But to me that seems only the ideal slave, the slave of the future. Modesty, industiousness, bevevolence, temperance are just so many hinderances to a sovereign disposition, great inventiveness, heroic purposefullness, noble being-for-oneself. --Friedrich Nietzsche, "The Will to Power" /------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | You don't get what you deserve, | Good people are good because they | | You get what you take. | are not strong enought to be evil.| |-----------------------------------+------------------------------------| | Conflicts between right and wrong | 'Conscience' is nothing more than | | are a sickness of the mind. | the fear of being caught. | \------------------------------------------------------------------------/

On 6 Feb 1996, Pit Fiend wrote: > > Or better yet, an idea of what'll be in the set? > > -Jasper The next set will, no doubt, contain more cards that were not thought out or tested thoroughly.

Ancient Hearts will be out in May. It will have a Middle Eastern theme, and will introduce the Assamites and the Followers of Set. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

In article <elfholmeD...@netcom.com>, elfh...@netcom.com (Mark Havener) wrote: > But would anyone else like to see more racial variation in the vampires? I'm > very curious. I couldn't give a Vial of Methuselah Vitae. :) Sorry, I honestly couldn't resist. And NO, THAT IS NOT A CARD!!! Eric deRuiter sXe

In article <4f91uk$l...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>, [ quoted text not captured ] Good! Can we assume that we will see more "vampires of color" in this expansion then? I mean, why are all the V:TES vampires caucasians (I know, there are a few African-americans, but the number is so far below the U.S. average <approx. 10%, give or take>, as to make them almost non-existant); I assume the Asian vampires are being saved for an Asian expansion)? I'm discounting Nosferatu--who knows what racial group they came from? I'm not being PC...I love the game as it is, but would like to request some more variation in the vampires. In particular, I'd LOVE to be able to play with the Brujah Primogen from "On a Darkling Plain". Sure, she died in the book, but who cares? Am I the only one who would have rather seen her as the promo card than Dan Murdock? Obviously, if I'm the only one who feels this way, then there's no market for it (and I'm not about to boycott the game or anything, don't worry!), and I'll shut up. But would anyone else like to see more racial variation in the vampires? I'm very curious. -Elfholme -- ****************************************************************************** This bit of wisdom has been brought to you by: Mark Havener Lord of elfh...@netcom.com Wood Elf King (and Jyhad player extraordinaire!) ******************************************************************************

In article <elfholmeD...@netcom.com> elfh...@netcom.com (Mark Havener) writes: >Good! Can we assume that we will see more "vampires of color" in this Well, there are lots of green, blue, purple, white, pink, red, grey, and black. >expansion then? I mean, why are all the V:TES vampires caucasians (I >know, there are a few African-americans, but the number is so far below >the U.S. average <approx. 10%, give or take>, as to make them almost I counted 7 out of 100 which about matches the US average (approx 8%) >non-existant); I assume the Asian vampires are being saved for an Asian I wonder who Jing Wei is then. What about Bianca? >expansion)? I'm discounting Nosferatu--who knows what racial group they >came from? I'm not being PC...I love the game as it >is, but would like to request some more variation in the vampires. In >particular, I'd LOVE to be able to play with the Brujah Primogen from >"On a Darkling Plain". Sure, she died in the book, but who cares? Am I >the only one who would have rather seen her as the promo card than Dan >Murdock? I would rather have a Dan Murdock with Sup. Potence. >Obviously, if I'm the only one who feels this way, then there's no market >for it (and I'm not about to boycott the game or anything, don't worry!), >and I'll shut up. But would anyone else like to see more racial >variation in the vampires? I'm very curious. I think there is a lot of variation in the vampires, about 10 different ethinic groups. I don't understand where your argument comes from.

In article <elfholmeD...@netcom.com>, Mark Havener <elfh...@netcom.com> wrote: >In article <4f91uk$l...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>, >Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote: >> >>Ancient Hearts will be out in May. It will have a Middle Eastern >>theme, and will introduce the Assamites and the Followers of Set. >> >>Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for >>aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc. > >Good! Can we assume that we will see more "vampires of color" in this >expansion then? I mean, why are all the V:TES vampires caucasians (I >know, there are a few African-americans, but the number is so far below >the U.S. average <approx. 10%, give or take>, as to make them almost >non-existant); I assume the Asian vampires are being saved for an Asian >expansion)? I'm discounting Nosferatu--who knows what racial group they >came from? I'm not being PC...I love the game as it >is, but would like to request some more variation in the vampires. In >particular, I'd LOVE to be able to play with the Brujah Primogen from >"On a Darkling Plain". Sure, she died in the book, but who cares? Am I >the only one who would have rather seen her as the promo card than Dan >Murdock? > >Obviously, if I'm the only one who feels this way, then there's no market >for it (and I'm not about to boycott the game or anything, don't worry!), >and I'll shut up. But would anyone else like to see more racial >variation in the vampires? I'm very curious. > >-Elfholme > >-- >****************************************************************************** >This bit of wisdom has been brought to you by: > >Mark Havener >Lord of >elfh...@netcom.com > >Wood Elf King (and Jyhad player extraordinaire!) >****************************************************************************** > The race point is an interesting one which I have not put much thought into before reading your post (probably because I myself am a middle class caucasian), but I think that I may have an explenation which, at least to some extent, accounts for the disparity. It basically revolves around the concept that vampires are IMMORTAL. So the crux of this theory is that, while North America is much more racially diverse than indicated in Jyhad (V:tes), this has a lot to do with the origins of vampires. Many of the vampires depicted in Jyhad have been around much longer than you or I. They were born in the times when The white Europeans were the only major race in the "civilzed" world. Non-whites were secondary peoples, so were not of interest to the vampires of the time. Generally, one becomes a vampire because they are exceptional or useful in some way, and a race of slaves is no more useful undead than alive. So it basically comes down to a lack of opportunity. Also, some clans have rigid rules as to the type of person they embrace. The Ventrue, for example, only take upper-class people. So it seems obvious why they have mostly white members. The Tremere recruit scholars, which again highlights the source of the disparity. Toreador prefer either artists or social elites, so minorities lose out on part B. Apparently Masika (and Maybe Demetrius, he looks kind of like Prince in bright light) were very tallented individuals to be made into Toreadors. The Malkavians are rather more equal opportunity than the other clans, and if you look at them, it shows. Gilbert is definitely black, and Zebulon appears to me to be. Sylvester and Lucian are drawn ambiguosly enough as to be capable of being any color, about half of the rest are so unnatural looking that assigning a race to them is mostly speculation. Now one clan in which minorities should be common is the Nosferatu, which preys on soceities tired, poor and huddled masses. Unfortunately, once embraced, a Nosferatu loses all signs of mortal race. As for the last two clans, I must agree that they don't display as much racial diversity as they probably should. However, there is one final factor that causes a racial disparity among vampires. I would assume that, just like humans, most vampires display a tendency to socialize within their own race, so, since vampires originated in white Europe, they have tended to be white europeans, as vampires would tend to embrace those similar to them. Also as an aside, there are specific clans of Asian vampires, but they isolate themselves from the Camarilla and occidental vampires in general, so not much is knwn of them. Also, the Settites, which are to be in the new expansion, had their strongholds in Africa and, more recently, the Carribean, so they should be largely non-european vampires, as should the Assimites. Both clans strongly opposed the advancement of european vampires into Africa and the Middle East (just another point about diversity). p.s. Just in case anyone tries to say vampires originated somewhere other than europe, I am referring more to the social structure that spawned the camarilla than the actual geographic origin of Caine.

In article <4ff4kl$41...@tiger4.ocs.lsu.edu>, Nicole Janine Purvis <npu...@tiger.lsu.edu> wrote: >MalKAViaN (naz...@wam.umd.edu) wrote: >: The race point is an interesting one which I have not put much >: thought into before reading your post (probably because I myself am a >: middle class caucasian), but I think that I may have an explenation which, >: at least to some extent, accounts for the disparity. It basically revolves >: around the concept that vampires are IMMORTAL. > >[Snipped: Theories on early white dominance in vampires, et al.] > > Actually, to my knowledge, WotC doesn't approach its artists and say >"We want this one to be black, this one white" and whatnot. Yes, the >artist may say "Masika" and in his head automatically think black. "Jing >Wei" would be interpreted as oriental. But so many others could be >interpreted either way, yet the vampire's art is mainly determined by the >artists... > That's another good point, though it approaches the discussion from a completely different perspective than mine. I was attempting to rationalize why the apparent disparity makes sense in game context rather than a game design standpoint. >-- > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >| "What is a man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, | >| man would die from a great loneliness of spirit." | >| "Confuse, annoy, and dee-STROY!!" Call me "Nicole" and I | >| npu...@tiger.lsu.edu -- Jet...@aol.com will have to kill you. | >---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken Mikolaj <ke...@eden.com> wrote: >On 6 Feb 1996, Pit Fiend wrote: >> Or better yet, an idea of what'll be in the set? > >The next set will, no doubt, contain more cards that were not thought out >or tested thoroughly. In defence of WotC, I wish to point out that this subject is the only one on which I have seen Mr. Wylie use "colorful language." If I were LSJ I could cite and reference his post exactly, but I'm not, so I'll just recount that to the question "will AH be as f**ked up as ds is?" the response was "Hell no." Mr. Wylie, I believe you, don't let me down (again.) gnfnrf

Note: Definitely off-group... Mark Havener (elfh...@netcom.com) wrote: : Good! Can we assume that we will see more "vampires of color" in this : expansion then? I mean, why are all the V:TES vampires caucasians (I : know, there are a few African-americans, but the number is so far below : the U.S. average <approx. 10%, give or take>, as to make them almost : non-existant); I'm Canadian, so I may be talking through my hat here, but... In reading a newspaper article in the Globe and Mail today (re: the possibility of repealing the Equal Opportunity laws in California) the figures given wer that the population of the US as a whole is 13% black, while California is only 7% black. (No percentages for other minorities were given.) Thus, ~10% black vampires would seem to be right on the money (give or take a percentage point). Underrepresented are all the _other_ minorities which make up your Melting Pot - Asian (Jing Wei is all I can think of), Latino, Hispanic, Aboriginal... Just a thought. Shane H.W. Travis | Galbraith's Law of Human Nature: Faced with the tra...@duke.usask.ca | choice between changing one's mind and proving Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | that there is no need to do so, almost everybody | gets busy on the proof.

In article <4ff4kl$41...@tiger4.ocs.lsu.edu>, Nicole Janine Purvis <npu...@tiger.lsu.edu> wrote: >MalKAViaN (naz...@wam.umd.edu) wrote: >: The race point is an interesting one which I have not put much >: thought into before reading your post (probably because I myself am a >: middle class caucasian), but I think that I may have an explenation which, >: at least to some extent, accounts for the disparity. It basically revolves >: around the concept that vampires are IMMORTAL. > >[Snipped: Theories on early white dominance in vampires, et al.] > > Actually, to my knowledge, WotC doesn't approach its artists and say >"We want this one to be black, this one white" and whatnot. Yes, the >artist may say "Masika" and in his head automatically think black. "Jing >Wei" would be interpreted as oriental. But so many others could be >interpreted either way, yet the vampire's art is mainly determined by the >artists... Good point. I wasn't as much complaining as asking for more variation. Like I said, I'll continue to play V:TES regardless, but ascetically would like to see more diversity (especially among my Brujah). Now that I have read a few of the books (and "On a Darkling Plain" is my current favorite), maybe I was assuming that WoTC gave the artists a little background about the vampires when they commissioned them... [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <4fhdkk$p...@tribune.usask.ca>, Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote: >Note: Definitely off-group... > >Mark Havener (elfh...@netcom.com) wrote: >: Good! Can we assume that we will see more "vampires of color" in this >: expansion then? I mean, why are all the V:TES vampires caucasians (I >: know, there are a few African-americans, but the number is so far below >: the U.S. average <approx. 10%, give or take>, as to make them almost >: non-existant); > >I'm Canadian, so I may be talking through my hat here, but... Not at all... >In reading a newspaper article in the Globe and Mail today (re: the >possibility of repealing the Equal Opportunity laws in California) the >figures given wer that the population of the US as a whole is 13% black, >while California is only 7% black. (No percentages for other minorities >were given.) > >Thus, ~10% black vampires would seem to be right on the money (give or >take a percentage point). Sorry, I think you misunderstood my point. The point of my post was that the percentage of the population in the US that is black is ~10%, and that the vampires in Jyhad/V:TES do not reflect this. It's a minor point, and one I would not make a huge fuss over, but I would personally get more pleasure out of playing a more varied crypt. Especially in my Brujah decks, I would think that there would be more African-American vamps to choose from. And I am hoping that "Ancient Hearts" will correct this (will it have more vamps for the main clans, as DS did? And if so, will these new vamps be from the same geographic regions as the Assamites/Setites (Africa/Near East/Carribean)?). I also think it would be very cool to be able to play with Judy Morgan, the Brujah Primogen from "On a Darkling Plain". IMHO, she was just too bad! >Underrepresented are all the _other_ >minorities which make up your Melting Pot - Asian (Jing Wei is all I can >think of), Latino, Hispanic, Aboriginal... Agreed that they are "underrepresented", but I was assuming that we'd see them represented in other clans (like some Asian clans). My brujah could certainly do with more hispanic blood as well, but IMHO the small number of Black Brujah (my clan of preference) really stands out. [ quoted text not captured ]

Mark Havener <elfh...@netcom.com> wrote: >Good! Can we assume that we will see more "vampires of color" in this >expansion then? I mean, why are all the V:TES vampires caucasians (I >know, there are a few African-americans, but the number is so far below >the U.S. average <approx. 10%, give or take>, as to make them almost >non-existant); I assume the Asian vampires are being saved for an Asian >expansion)? I'm discounting Nosferatu--who knows what racial group they >came from? I'm not being PC...I love the game as it >is, but would like to request some more variation in the vampires... Yes, there is a higher percentage of non-caucasion vampires in AH, given that it is centered around the Middle East and northern Africa. I believe the approach to the expansions is to have vampires be concentrated more in the local ethnic groups; DS was primarily Caucasian because, well, it was based in Europe. [ quoted text not captured ]

Daniel Hoffman (dhof...@cris.com) wrote: : >expansion then? I mean, why are all the V:TES vampires caucasians (I : >know, there are a few African-americans, but the number is so far below : >the U.S. average <approx. 10%, give or take>, as to make them almost : I counted 7 out of 100 which about matches the US average (approx 8%) Seven? I can only think of two: Roraca Quaid (Tremere) and that Caitiff with Potence (forgot her name). [ quoted text not captured ]

hsm...@garfield.msms.doe.k12.ms.us (Harry Smith) wrote: >Daniel Hoffman (dhof...@cris.com) wrote: >: >expansion then? I mean, why are all the V:TES vampires caucasians (I >: >know, there are a few African-americans, but the number is so far below >: >the U.S. average <approx. 10%, give or take>, as to make them almost >: I counted 7 out of 100 which about matches the US average (approx 8%) >Seven? I can only think of two: Roraca Quaid (Tremere) and that Caitiff >with Potence (forgot her name). Add Masika (Toreador) Dr. Jest(Malk) Gilbert (Malk) >- REF

[ quoted text not captured ] Rake Koko Zebulon

In article <sylviam-1302...@ehdup-k-7.rmt.net.pitt.edu>, syl...@pitt.edu (Marius Pontmercy) wrote: > But since vampires turn pale even if they weren't originally, lots of them > could originally have been non-caucasian. According to Vampire the Masquerade, not all vampires become more pale. The assamite, for example, become darker. Though most do become paler, not all do. > How many are you _absolutely certain_ are really European? Who knows? "I can send and receive e-mail even over the Internet"-aol commercial @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$ # Adrian Sullivan sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu Spoutingly yours 8^) # $ GAT/CS/O/WS R+++* tv&--- b++(+++)&+ t X++&-- 5->? e+*>++++ PS+&-+ @ # PE&++&- C(+++)$ UX+>+++$ N++(+) K+>++++ w---$>? M++$ r(+) y*+? 3.1# @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$

In article <dhoffman.1...@cris.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] Aren't all Nosferatu non-white ???????

On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, REF wrote: > hsm...@garfield.msms.doe.k12.ms.us (Harry Smith) wrote: > > >Daniel Hoffman (dhof...@cris.com) wrote: > > >: >expansion then? I mean, why are all the V:TES vampires caucasians (I > >: >know, there are a few African-americans, but the number is so far below > >: >the U.S. average <approx. 10%, give or take>, as to make them almost > > >: I counted 7 out of 100 which about matches the US average (approx 8%) > > >Seven? I can only think of two: Roraca Quaid (Tremere) and that Caitiff > >with Potence (forgot her name). > > Add Masika (Toreador) > Dr. Jest(Malk) > Gilbert (Malk) > >- > REF > > > Look at Dr. Jest close that is a white guy with dread braids not a colored guy.

But since vampires turn pale even if they weren't originally, lots of them could originally have been non-caucasian. How many are you _absolutely certain_ are really European?

[ quoted text not captured ] > Dread braids is worng i looked closer it's a hat that hangs down with skulls on it you can even see his hairline if you look close enough. Boy this is a silly topic. }:>) Methuselah Midnght

Hi A.B., On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, A.B. Lucas wrote: [Stuff about Vampires of Color deleted....] > Aren't all Nosferatu non-white ??????? Youch! Stand by for P.C. flaming..... Algustas *****Politics is not an exact science.***** Otto Von Bismarck

In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.960213...@web2.calweb.com>, Midnght <mid...@web2.calweb.com> wrote: > On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, REF wrote: > > > hsm...@garfield.msms.doe.k12.ms.us (Harry Smith) wrote: > > > > >Daniel Hoffman (dhof...@cris.com) wrote: > > > > >: >expansion then? I mean, why are all the V:TES vampires caucasians (I > > >: >know, there are a few African-americans, but the number is so far below > > >: >the U.S. average <approx. 10%, give or take>, as to make them almost > > > > >: I counted 7 out of 100 which about matches the US average (approx 8%) > > > > >Seven? I can only think of two: Roraca Quaid (Tremere) and that Caitiff > > >with Potence (forgot her name). > > > > Add Masika (Toreador) > > Dr. Jest(Malk) > > Gilbert (Malk) > > >- > > REF > > > > > > > Look at Dr. Jest close that is a white guy with dread braids not a > colored guy. I don't know how much this matters, but my favorite is neither black nor white... J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> PGP keys by request

In article <dhoffman.1...@cris.com>, Daniel Hoffman <dhof...@cris.com> wrote: >In article <elfholmeD...@netcom.com> elfh...@netcom.com (Mark Havener) writes: > >>Good! Can we assume that we will see more "vampires of color" in this > >Well, there are lots of green, blue, purple, white, pink, red, grey, and black. > >>expansion then? I mean, why are all the V:TES vampires caucasians (I >>know, there are a few African-americans, but the number is so far below >>the U.S. average <approx. 10%, give or take>, as to make them almost > >I counted 7 out of 100 which about matches the US average (approx 8%) Which ones were you counting? Could you provide a list? Because I don't count 7. > >>non-existant); I assume the Asian vampires are being saved for an Asian > >I wonder who Jing Wei is then. What about Bianca? Bianca appears to be of caucasian descent (even in the book "House of Secrets", I see nothing to suggest that she is Asian). So that leaves Jing Wei...perhaps to make myself clearer I should have said "MOST of teh Asian vampires...", but really didn't think it was necessary. I'm not sure what the Asian percentage of the U.S. population is, but I'm pretty sure it's above 1% (1 out of 100, using your numbers). > >>expansion)? I'm discounting Nosferatu--who knows what racial group they >>came from? I'm not being PC...I love the game as it >>is, but would like to request some more variation in the vampires. In >>particular, I'd LOVE to be able to play with the Brujah Primogen from >>"On a Darkling Plain". Sure, she died in the book, but who cares? Am I >>the only one who would have rather seen her as the promo card than Dan >>Murdock? > >I would rather have a Dan Murdock with Sup. Potence. Hmmm...haven't gotten my Dan Murdock card, but I was told that he didn't have Potence at all, just Aus. and Obf. (which means he'll fit right in in any Malkavian Deck I choose to make...joy). >>Obviously, if I'm the only one who feels this way, then there's no market >>for it (and I'm not about to boycott the game or anything, don't worry!), >>and I'll shut up. But would anyone else like to see more racial >>variation in the vampires? I'm very curious. > >I think there is a lot of variation in the vampires, about 10 different >ethinic groups. I don't understand where your argument comes from. Was I arguing? Actually, I was taking pains to make my post more of a "questioning request" than an argument. I'm not railing against the current makeup of vampires in Jyhad/VTES, I'd just prefer more variation. I don't think there is a lot of variation (since the numbers are geared higher than US averages towards Caucasian vamps), but then I'm from California... ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

In <elfholmeD...@netcom.com> elfh...@netcom.com (Mark Havener) writes: >In article <4fvshv$e...@news.xs4all.nl>, >Richard Braakman <da...@xs4all.nl> wrote: >> >>Why are you using US averages? ><sigh> I knew someone was going to ask this. I was using what I know of the >VTM source material and the novels, which seem to mostly center around >the U.S. Added to this is the fact that all the Princes in the basic >cardset rule U.S. cities. Kind of makes a strong case, don't you think? No, I don't think it does. (See below) >>And averages from this century, at that. >>Most vampires will be far older. >"Most"? Not from the materials I have read...though I could even accept >that most older vampire will be mostly caucasian. Remember that the Jyhad cards feature influential vampires from the Camarilla. Most of these will be of the older type. Did you try counting the younger generations separately? (I'm thinking of age 1-4 vampires here.) In general, I would expect a vampire population to change its demographic makeup much more slowly than the human population it feeds on. >I'm about through with this thread ("Whew!" I hear from a few of you.. ;) ). >I didn't mean to start a PC/anti-PC debate over the vamps in Jyhad/VTES. >I merely wanted to know if there was a reason for the high percentage of >caucasian vamps in the game, and to express my desire to have more vamps >of color to play with. I think the reason is related to the concept of 'vampire' in a simple way. The archetypal vampire is pale. Pictures of dark vampires are not common. Most people (including the artists at WotC) will associate that paleness with a certain race. -- Richard Braakman It is easier to fight for your principles than to follow them.

On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Marius Pontmercy wrote: > But since vampires turn pale even if they weren't originally, lots of them > could originally have been non-caucasian. One thing is the reddish-pink colour your skin has because of the blood underneath, the other is the melanine that gives you a darker tone of skin (due to sun tan, ethnic orign, etc.). Most vampires do not have a natural blood flow, and thus are paler than most individuals. Nonetheless, the original tone of skin is mantained (a former surfer vampire should be somewhat tanned). So, in order for some vampire to have black color in his mortal days, he should be as black as Gilbert (or the other Toreador guy) in Kindred times. One thing I'm amazed of is the pinkish skin tone some vampires have! There are some Toreador that don't seem vampires at all! (I can't remember any names for I don't play with Toreador (: ) But I believe the colour is not the only feature non-caucasians have... Jing Wei is not 'yellow', is she? :) David Pontes 8[

Algustas (cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu) wrote: : On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, A.B. Lucas wrote: : [Stuff about Vampires of Color deleted....] : > Aren't all Nosferatu non-white ??????? : Youch! Stand by for P.C. flaming..... I think what he meant to say was that you can't tell what color most of the Nosferatu were when they were alive. Once you become Nosferatu, little things like race become pretty meaningless... :-) Terry Wright | "The Internet is like masturbation... aa...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca | you don't have to dress up for it." Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | -- Micheal McKean Canada