Ghouled Retainer Vs Immortal Grapple

Quick Question in a combat where a Immortal Grapple have been played is it or is it not legal for a ghouled retainer to use any weapon? Eg. Flame Thrower or anything else. As I read it it aint allowed for the Ghouled Retainer, on the otherhand I cant see it mentioned anywhere. A seconed other question is, is it legal to bleed myself, for what ever reason I may have? Cheers /Jesper

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 01:13:20 +0200, "Jesper" <26984...@mail1.stofanet.dk> wrote: >in a combat where a Immortal Grapple have been played is it or is it not >legal for a ghouled retainer to use any weapon? Eg. Flame Thrower or >anything else. The Ghoul Retainer is not restricted in any way by an Immortal Grapple. The Ghoul Retainer will use the weapon just fine. >As I read it it aint allowed for the Ghouled Retainer, on the otherhand I >cant see it mentioned anywhere. There is nothing on Immortal Grapple to prohibit any effect played with a retainer. >A seconed other question is, is it legal to bleed myself, for what ever >reason I may have? No. 6.1.1 You can never bleed yourself. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/ Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

> >A seconed other question is, is it legal to bleed myself, for what ever > >reason I may have? > > No. > > 6.1.1 > You can never bleed yourself. > i know its kinda stupid -but as i understand it the cards allways overrule the rulebook, and thus donatien could allow u to bleed yourself if u have attempted a unsuccesfull bleed since your last minion fase ? still dunno and kinda useless anyway :D

TunFiskeMad wrote: > i know its kinda stupid -but as i understand it the cards allways > overrule the rulebook, and thus donatien could allow u to bleed > yourself if u have attempted a unsuccesfull bleed since your last > minion fase ? No. Donatien's text overcomes the default "prey only". He has no text overriding the "never yourself" restriction. If he had such text, then the text would override, yes. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ expounded: > TunFiskeMad wrote: > > i know its kinda stupid -but as i understand it the cards allways > > overrule the rulebook, and thus donatien could allow u to bleed > > yourself if u have attempted a unsuccesfull bleed since your last > > minion fase ? > > No. Donatien's text overcomes the default "prey only". He has no text > overriding the "never yourself" restriction. > > If he had such text, then the text would override, yes. So you can do it with Cat Burglary or Kindred Spirits then? -they clearly overrule the 'prey only' restriction and I can't see any reason why they should treat that differently to the 'never yourself' restriction.

Timlagor wrote: > So you can do it with Cat Burglary or Kindred Spirits then? -they > clearly overrule the 'prey only' restriction and I can't see any reason > why they should treat that differently to the 'never yourself' > restriction. No, neither of them (nor any other card) have any text overriding the "never yourself" restriction. Such text would look like: "the minion can bleed his or her controller". [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ expounded: > Timlagor wrote: > > So you can do it with Cat Burglary or Kindred Spirits then? -they > > clearly overrule the 'prey only' restriction and I can't see any reason > > why they should treat that differently to the 'never yourself' > > restriction. > > No, neither of them (nor any other card) have any text overriding the > "never yourself" restriction. Such text would look like: "the minion > can bleed his or her controller". So.. you (the player) don't qualify as 'any methuselah'? In this case you are making the rules overule the card -you're saying it's 'any *other* methuselah' which many cards *do* say -still can't see why you would want to bleed yourself.. parity shift perhaps?

Timlagor wrote: > So.. you (the player) don't qualify as 'any methuselah'? In this case You do, but that fact doesn't counter the fact that you cannot bleed yourself. If you want card text to override that rule, you need card text to override that rule. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ I for the most agree with you but I cant follow you here I as a methuselah am "a" "any methuselah" right, aint I? Wouldent I be allowed to move, lets say: Fear of Mekhet [DS:U, CE:PV] Cardtype: Master Cost: 2 pool Master. Put this card on a ready justicar or Inner Circle member. Tap that vampire. During this vampire's untap phase, he or she burns 5 blood. If the vampire cannot burn the blood, he or she is burned; otherwise, the vampire's controller moves this card to any other justicar or Inner Circle member (or burns this card if there are no others). to any of my own Justicars or Inner Circle. Donatien [Sabbat:V, SW:U] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Toreador antitribu Group: 2 Capacity: 9 Discipline: cel pot AUS PRE Sabbat Cardinal: As a (D) action, Donatien may bleed any Methuselah who has attempted an unsuccessful bleeding action since your last minion phase. +1 bleed. Clearly stats that he can bleed ANY Methuselah, not "any OTHER" Methuselah but any. I am a Methuselah and therefore qullifie for that. The card do take precedens over the rules, and I would belive that it dosent explicit need to stand on the card what rule it overwrites, since that there one every card then need some more text I blive, if not then atleast to mention the rules it overwrites and dosent. I think the easy way outta this one is simply to make a ruleing that it should be "any OTHER" Methuselah. Untill then I really cant see why that card shouldent overwrite that rule, when pleanty of other cards overwrites other rules. Just my 2-cent /Jesper "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3F78673D...@white-wolf.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

>The card do take >precedens over the rules, and I would belive that it dosent explicit need to >stand on the card what rule it overwrites, since that there one every card >then need some more text I blive, if not then atleast to mention the rules >it overwrites and dosent. I believe every CCG says somewhere in its rulebook something like "card effects take precedence over rules". It's deceptive, as evidenced by how often people think they can do something they can't. What it really means is when a card effect and a rule contradict, the card's effect overrides the rule if it specifically says it does. Otherwise, cards conform to the rules as much as possible. You cannot bleed yourself. The card doesn't say "oh, by the way, any Methuselah means you can bleed yourself" (paraphrasing what real wording would be), so it conforms to the rule as it can and allows you to bleed anyone, if you satisfy the conditions, except yourself.

Well I would and at anytime still say that the cards take precedens over the rules. The cards dosent eighter say that Prey/Predator relation ships are overruled. So dose that mean that when I can bleed any Methusula I can only bleed my prey, since its in the rules that you can only bleed him. To be honest. We can quick agree on that you shouldent be allowed to bleed your self, but why open a spot on the cards that can be misinterpreted. I just dont get it? Cheers /Jesper "Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message news:20030929200159...@mb-m25.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

"Jesper" <26984...@mail1.stofanet.dk> wrote in message news:<3f7970cf$0$22672$ba62...@nntp02.dk.telia.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Okay, let's be very specific here in the hopes of ending this stupid debate: First off, from the rulebook, section 6.1.1 (Bleed): "Bleeding is one of the most fundamental actions of the game. It is the basic means of removing your prey's pool. By default, your minion's bleed actions can be directed only at your prey. Some cards or effects may allow or force you to bleed a Methuselah other than your prey. You can never bleed yourself, however." If this was not enough to make people go 'hey, cards override the rulebook, and here it even says how cards will or will not override this concept', you guys are all missing a very simple answer to all this debate: The term 'Bleed' is defined in the rulebook's "Rules Glossary" as follows: "Bleed: An action that attempts to burn another player's pool. By default, it can only be attempted against a player's prey." So any and every card that uses the word 'Bleed' is saying 'An action that attempts to burn another player's pool, defaulting to only your prey' This means that cards that say 'Bleed any Methuselah' are saying 'Remove pool from another player's pool, targetting any player'. Except that you are not 'another player' as the definition of what "Bleed" means, so you cannot bleed yourself, ever ever ever. The cards do not say 'remove pool from any methuselah'; they cannot ever use the word 'bleed' without it including the sanction of bleeding other players so long as that basic definition of what 'Bleed' means exists in the glossary. -John Flournoy