2 new expansion ideas

In an attempt to move on from some previous topics.... I was lamenting the loss of appearance of one of my favorite bloodlines (Bushi) when it ocurred to me that they could make an appearance in a new and obvious expansion after Camarilla. Kindred of the East. Frankly I am not familiar with that portion of the WOD at all, but if it gets me my Bushi, I'm happy. =] I was also thinking that there are several portions of the WOD that are not represented, nor certain locations of the real world. Therefore another expansion idea came to mind. World of Darkness. There, that should keep us swimming in VTES cards for years to come! *Shudder* T

<Talo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3bfeb61e.88926119@news... > > In an attempt to move on from some previous topics.... > > > I was lamenting the loss of appearance of one of my favorite > bloodlines (Bushi) when it ocurred to me that they could make an > appearance in a new and obvious expansion after Camarilla. > > Kindred of the East. There has been discussion on this in the past. Popular opinion says that there are too many problems with integrating all of the necessary factions and shintai (disciplines) into the existing game. But then again, the addition of the number of bloodlines in the upcoming expansion might be evidence that such an expansion is possible. I would much rather see KotE represented as allies (also popular opinion) or as a separate game all together (the demand is probably not there for WW to make such a move). <snip> > Therefore another expansion idea came to mind. > > World of Darkness. I think that people who want this to happen need to keep their addiction for more and more cards in check. The WoD is already plenty represented through allies (Thadius Zho, Werewolf Pack, The Ferryman, etc...). To include the rest of the WoD in a more extensive way other than allies would probably bastardize the game. So then what would you like, an expansion of nothing but ally and retainer cards? =] Peteo

> I was lamenting the loss of appearance of one of my favorite > bloodlines (Bushi) when it ocurred to me that they could make an > appearance in a new and obvious expansion after Camarilla. > > Kindred of the East. > > Frankly I am not familiar with that portion of the WOD at all, but if > it gets me my Bushi, I'm happy. =] The Bushi are not a true Bloodlines -- they are what the Cathayans passed for upon first appearing in North America to Western Kindred. Their skills were defined to the Kindred in terms they understood. When White Wolf expanded upon the idea, the Bushi became the Cathayans, and so they're not gone -- they just don't exist in a format that's friendly to VTES right now. As for an KoE expansion, I don't see it being very plausible. The Shintai are a completely different set of powers, and where Kindred have blood, Cathayans have something like four different kinds of Chi. Hard to keep track of as a focus. Allies and Masters are a good idea, though. > I was also thinking that there are several portions of the WOD that > are not represented, nor certain locations of the real world. > Therefore another expansion idea came to mind. > > World of Darkness. Hmm...we've got three Garou (Renegade, Pack, and Buddy, w/a marginal appearance by the Abomination), Several Mages (Outcast, Tad Zho, Tara, Nephandus, the Cabal, Ahl-i-Batin), an Immortal, two Fae, five Mummies, several Wraiths, and hunters of both the normal persuasion and the Hunter: The Reckoning persuasion. So -- what part of the WoD are we missing? All seven products that WW publishes tabletop and live-action material are represented. True, we don't have any Corax allies yet, but they're pretty rare in comparison to the werewolves in the lives of your average (and even your not-so-average) vampire. Now, there are a few ideas for expansions that I'd like to see: Midnight Seige (Cam vs Sabbat -- w/new vamps for both sects, and more cards that allow one to target the other). The Dark Ages (a young Lucita or Anatole? Ack, that would require a new rule. But still -- it's a neat idea). Midnight Circus (one of my favorite books for the game) Fanboy

<snip> > Now, there are a few ideas for expansions that I'd like to see: > Midnight Seige (Cam vs Sabbat -- w/new vamps for both sects, and more > cards that allow one to target the other). I'd rather see a 'VTES compendium' base set with a numer of different kinds of boosters and starters. Like the western/fanatsie CCG that use poker for combat (Doom Town?), it has 12 (i think) starters and th same number of kinds of booster. This is a bit more 'newbie friendly' and is more cost/trade-effective for players who only want to play with one deck. Especially in small playgroups, where trading is difficult. The obvious problem for implementing this for VTES is the number of clans and bloodlines. Maybe combinations can be made. Like Cammie clans and Sabbat clans who have the same disciplines, putting all bloodlines in an bloodline booster (no starter for this),.... Thoughts? Jeroen

> The Dark Ages (a young Lucita or Anatole? Ack, that would require a > new rule. But still -- it's a neat idea). I'd really like to see a Dark Ages set. It's be really interesting to see younger versions of existing vampire, as well as one that were destroyed before the present day. If WW were to do this though I think it would almost have to be a separate game but, so that all those cards we already have don't go to waste, you could do one of two things. Have a list of cards from the current sets that can't be used in a Dark Ages game ( you know, like Guns and stuff ) or Reprint a lot of cards and allow cards from previous sets with the same name ( and presumably the same effect ) to be mixed in. In the same way we can mix Jyhad cards w/ V:TES cards. As for Kindred of the East, I know nothing about them but it sounds like they'd be best represented as Allies, or if there was enough interest in them as a stand-alone game.

On Fri, 23 Nov 2001 21:12:04 GMT, "Peter Oh" <ohb...@wam.umd.edu> wrote: >> >> World of Darkness. > >I think that people who want this to happen need to keep their addiction for >more and more cards in check. The WoD is already plenty represented through >allies (Thadius Zho, Werewolf Pack, The Ferryman, etc...). To include the >rest of the WoD in a more extensive way other than allies would probably >bastardize the game. So then what would you like, an expansion of nothing >but ally and retainer cards? =] > Well sure, but I was mainly thinking of locations. Africa, Russia, South America, IndoAsia and the like just aren't represented at all. And i think other locations are underrepresented. And yes *more* cards is a concern, but these are merely ideas to kick around for the moment. T

On 23 Nov 2001 19:53:24 -0800, texas...@yahoo.com (The Fanboy) wrote: >The Bushi are not a true Bloodlines -- they are what the Cathayans Weird. The original Bushi had nothing to do with Cathay. That bites. I rather liked the idea of vampires in Nihon and toyed with several ideas of how and who would infiltrate Japan, seeing as they are so influenced by Western powers and ideas, it would make a good battlground for East meets West. Ravnos/Assamite ninja clans, etc. =] > >As for an KoE expansion, I don't see it being very plausible. The >Shintai are a completely different set of powers, and where Kindred >have blood, Cathayans have something like four different kinds of Chi. > Hard to keep track of as a focus. Allies and Masters are a good >idea, though. Alright, good point. Combine KOE and WOD into one expansion then. So we could get KOE allies along with african/s american vampires and locations, etc. T

In message <3c0c2432.182656612@news>, Talo...@hotmail.com writes: >Well sure, but I was mainly thinking of locations. Africa, Russia, >South America, IndoAsia and the like just aren't represented at all. Partly, some locations aren't terribly well represented in the WoD. This is not altogether surprising, for two main reasons IMO. Firstly, White Wolf will often want to appeal to their player-base in a manner that will generate sales. Certain areas aren't going to be terribly interesting for people. Lots of people will buy Washington DC by Night, or similar, whereas far fewer people would buy, say, Niger by Night. Secondly, in purely "practical" terms, there are numerous locations that would be difficult for Vampire mechanics. For example, vampires living in very northern Europe (parts of Russia/ex-USSR and Scandinavia) will have this small problem with daylight for a lot of the year, followed by no problem at all. Similarly, a vampire living in a particularly tropical climate will have problems with only having a relatively few hours of darkness. Such provides numerous technical, practical difficulties for players to overcome. If players are spending their time trying to work out how to cheat a system that's basically designed for temperate climates with fairly substantial portions of both daylight and darkness on a regular basis, they're spending a lot less time Storytelling - which is *the* point of the games White Wolf design. The scarcity of them in the WoD makes it far harder to convincingly portray them in V:TES - which is partly being sourced from such. Also, in the WoD, other factions thrive in other locations. Making *every* location into a vampire strong-hold makes it difficult to generate strong games. That the Changing Breeds are adapted to and strong in certain locations where Kindred aren't makes for a different environment. Of course, there's plenty of scope for cross-over in some places, but having each group exist in its own little niche *as well* provides a number of opportunities that wouldn't be provided otherwise. (Some parts of Indo-Asia also have some potential for Kindred of the East, anyway.) On a separate issue, Russia/ex-USSR is likely to provide a number of problems of handling it. How involved do you make vampires in the rise and fall of communism and the Cold War? Such would be, were I a designer, terribly difficult to decide - can I justify making my vampires responsible for the killing of 10 million people or more during World War II and its aftermath? Can I justify the Cold War? Do I want to end up treading on potentially *extremely* sensitive subjects? How do I explain Gorbachov's actions? This isn't going to be easy. Black Dog, however, might provide a possible channel for such, akin to the Charnel Houses Wraith supplement. -- James Coupe When correctly viewed PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Everything is lewd EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 I could tell you things about Peter Pan 13D7E668C3695D623D5D And the Wizard of Oz, there's a dirty old man

> On a separate issue, Russia/ex-USSR is likely to provide a number of > problems of handling it. How involved do you make vampires in the rise > and fall of communism and the Cold War? Such would be, were I a > designer, terribly difficult to decide - can I justify making my > vampires responsible for the killing of 10 million people or more during > World War II and its aftermath? Can I justify the Cold War? Do I want > to end up treading on potentially *extremely* sensitive subjects? How > do I explain Gorbachov's actions? This isn't going to be easy. of Oz, there's a dirty old man James, You should read Rage across Russia to find out the answers to these questions. It documents the rise of one of the most feared Nictuku, Baba Yaga!!! Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

> James, > You should read Rage across Russia to find out the answers to these > questions. It documents the rise of one of the most feared Nictuku, Baba > Yaga!!! Baba Yaga isn't Niktuku. She's the one childe of Absimilliard (Nosferatu) that wasn't Bound to him, and escaped. The Niktuku have been hunting her, and her progeny, ever since. All Nosferatu are descended from her. They fear Baba Yaga because she would rather kill her own than let them lead the Niktuku to her. Nights of Prophecy chronicles the fall of Baba Yaga rather well. As for geographic expansions... The Children of Caine flourish in Europe and North America. In Russia, Baba Yaga and Durga Syn were the only vampires of any respectable power -- most others were silenced by Baba Yaga or the Shadow Curtain. Africa and South America, particularly the Amazon Basin, are strongholds of the shifting breeds, and any vampire there is going to be short-lived. They made great locations for Rage expansions -- but it would be inappropriate for a vampire expansion. Fanboy

Talo...@hotmail.com wrote in message news:<3bfeb61e.88926119@news>... > In an attempt to move on from some previous topics.... > > > I was lamenting the loss of appearance of one of my favorite > bloodlines (Bushi) when it ocurred to me that they could make an > appearance in a new and obvious expansion after Camarilla. > > Kindred of the East. > > Frankly I am not familiar with that portion of the WOD at all, but if > it gets me my Bushi, I'm happy. =] i think Dark Ages is a MUCH better bet for an expansion. KotE, if it ever appears, should IMO be an expansion for a separate game based on Wraith. i think Wraith and KotE are very closely related [the Shadow from Wraith [GREAT idea, TERRIBLY hard to implement in an RPG] maps onto the Hun or Po soul from KotE, can't remember right now which] and i think both games might work better as card games than they do as RPGs. > > I was also thinking that there are several portions of the WOD that > are not represented, nor certain locations of the real world. > Therefore another expansion idea came to mind. > > World of Darkness. This one i like, and see no harm with there being a few KotE in this expansion. [ quoted text not captured ]

My idea: An expansion with holy and unholy vampires and things. True faith (0-2 per clan), relics, inquisitors, arcanum and such stuff. Some dark thaumaturgy and lots of devils/deamons/divine servants wouldalso be great. How about that?

In message <6f108788.01112...@posting.google.com>, agzocgud [ quoted text not captured ] An expansion with some heavy reliance on allies and such like has been suggested in the past - obviously, make it fairly small, however. A few more bits of the Inquisition, vampire hunters, a few more Garou, Changelings, Mages etc., as well as some other generic support vampires and cards, has the potential for a nice, small set. Pencilling a small, non-controversial set which, basically, only adds new cards and *not* new mechanics is likely to be good - the game needs to settle down. -- James Coupe When correctly viewed PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Everything is lewd EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 I could tell you things about Peter Pan 13D7E668C3695D623D5D And the Wizard of Oz, there's a dirty old man

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > Pencilling a small, non-controversial set which, basically, only adds > new cards and *not* new mechanics is likely to be good - the game needs > to settle down. Like SW and FN, eh? :-) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> i think Dark Ages is a MUCH better bet for an expansion. KotE, if it > ever appears, should IMO be an expansion for a separate game based on > Wraith. i think Wraith and KotE are very closely related [the Shadow > from Wraith [GREAT idea, TERRIBLY hard to implement in an RPG] maps > onto the Hun or Po soul from KotE, can't remember right now which] and > i think both games might work better as card games than they do as > RPGs. The odds of White Wolf creating any new products based on Wraith are not very likely. The product line for the RPG has been shut down for some time, ever since Ends of Empire came out. It'll likely be the only live-action game to not get an update to the Revised ruleset, which is a shame, since the original LARP rules were even more unwieldy than the tabletop rules were. It was my favorite game, in terms of background and richness of setting. Charnel Houses of Europe remains the single best RPG supplement I've ever seen. Unfortunately, the game was a bit too gloomy for the average gamer, and as such, it never took off. Unfortunate. Given that, I doubt any Wraith card games will happen. It's not even listed as an available license for a video game. *chuckle* Fanboy

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:sQu$vROF1m...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <6f108788.01112...@posting.google.com>, agzocgud > <per_m...@hotmail.com> writes: > >An expansion with holy and unholy vampires and things. True faith (0-2 > >per clan), relics, inquisitors, arcanum and such stuff. Some dark > >thaumaturgy and lots of devils/deamons/divine servants wouldalso be > >great. > > An expansion with some heavy reliance on allies and such like has been > suggested in the past - obviously, make it fairly small, however. > > A few more bits of the Inquisition, vampire hunters, a few more Garou, > Changelings, Mages etc., as well as some other generic support vampires > and cards, has the potential for a nice, small set. > > Pencilling a small, non-controversial set which, basically, only adds > new cards and *not* new mechanics is likely to be good - the game needs > to settle down. It was a bit of a shock for me to see so many new mechanics in Bloodlines. I guess it was unavoidable though. At least most of them seem to be uncomplicated and well thought out.

In message <u062oh8...@news.supernews.com>, GreySeer <e...@i.think.not> writes: >It was a bit of a shock for me to see so many new mechanics in Bloodlines. I >guess it was unavoidable though. At least most of them seem to be >uncomplicated and well thought out. Given that most of them are pretty much exclusive to one or two bloodlines, it's not such a huge issue. I'd just like to see the game given some time to settle down (so new cards can be explored, new strategies developed and done so *properly*), with the accompanying time allowing people's wallets to recover. For instance, I'd be concerned if, with a Camarilla base set pencilled in for next year, anything else was released in 2002. I'd rather not see anything else until Spring/Summer 2003 at the earliest. [ quoted text not captured ]

As long as sales of Bloodlines ( or the other sets ) keeps on going reasonably well ( and with so many new cards to explore why wouldn't it ) there's no need for WW to put out a new set. I guess we'll have to wait and see. "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:O$PH0VPCG...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... [ quoted text not captured ]

legb...@my-deja.com (legbiter) wrote in message news:<68f2e9f8.01112...@posting.google.com>... > i think Dark Ages is a MUCH better bet for an expansion. I agree. There's some scope here for a stand-alone game that still provides value to the existing V:TES card pool too. Consider the following: You have crypt cards with different coloured backs (say, purple) to the orange ones we have at present, these are the Dark Ages (DA) vampires and can't ever be used with existing crypt cards. The library cards remain the same however. This allows you to add new library cards that can be used in the modern game and prevents modern and DA vampire being played at the same time. So whilst new Protean cards could be used in the modern game, DA clan specific cards could not (and to some extent DA clan discipline specific cards too, unless Ian Forestal wants to do some hard research). You could also have cards with a 'usable only by a DA vampire' clause if required. This takes care of unsatisfactory crossovers with DA vampires tooling up with Assault Rifles (well, in tournaments anyway) and Cappadocians running around in the modern game. Other advantages include the chance to reprint cards, have younger versions of modern vampires and run DA exclusive tournaments that have a limited card pool without totally disadvantaging the older players who can still use their modern library cards as long as that card has been reprinted in DA. All of this would expand the current game and provide a new tournament format that is more newb friendly and has engineered certain cards and strategies out of the game to replace them with new ones. Sound good? matt.

>As long as sales of Bloodlines ( or the other sets ) keeps on going >reasonably well ( and with so many new cards to explore why wouldn't it ) >there's no need for WW to put out a new set. I guess we'll have to wait and >see. I thought WW was a business. Doesn't sound like a good way to maximize profits to hold off product because a few folks complain about how expensive a hobby it is. I suppose WW should take heart that people complain about how often they expand their game as every well supported CCG has some portion of its customer base do so.

In message <20011127130625...@mb-cq.aol.com>, Curevei <cur...@aol.com> writes: >>As long as sales of Bloodlines ( or the other sets ) keeps on going >>reasonably well ( and with so many new cards to explore why wouldn't it ) >>there's no need for WW to put out a new set. I guess we'll have to wait and >>see. > >I thought WW was a business. Doesn't sound like a good way to maximize profits >to hold off product because a few folks complain about how expensive a hobby it >is. I'm not, though it is a secondary concern. I have no particular problems handing over great wodges of cash to White Wolf. However, if they are going to produce a game that's balanced and playable, time needs to be given for exploration of strategies and the settling down of cards. Who knows if there's still a stupidly good combo to be found in Sabbat War that hasn't been exploited yet because, as soon as it got into swing, everyone was playing with Final Nights instead? Moreover, if I were a playtester for Bloodlines, how well would I have known Final Nights? How much impact would Final Nights have had on the world when Bloodlines was sent to be produced, after play-testing? [ quoted text not captured ]

>However, if they are going to produce a game that's balanced and >playable, time needs to be given for exploration of strategies and the >settling down of cards. Who knows if there's still a stupidly good >combo to be found in Sabbat War that hasn't been exploited yet because, >as soon as it got into swing, everyone was playing with Final Nights >instead? > >Moreover, if I were a playtester for Bloodlines, how well would I have >known Final Nights? How much impact would Final Nights have had on the >world when Bloodlines was sent to be produced, after play-testing? I've been a CCG playtester for various games. From what I've seen, the playtesters have to make do as best they can given the time frame predetermined by the company's need to put out product to make money. How well they do is likely a function of 1) how well the process is managed and 2) how many playtesters there are. Magic may be the only CCG that gets sufficient playtesting and mistakes are still made. The role of the typical CCG playtester, which probably doesn't include whoever works on Magic, AFAICT, is horribly overrated by those who've never done it. You are right about something. When you introduce new playtesters for a set, usually the time frame is such that they aren't familiar and have no time to get familiar with the previous set. So, the older playtesters have to deal with the previous set while the new playtesters muddle through. As for maintaining balance, what companies have done in the past is weaken the set to make sure it isn't broken. Usually, longer playtest windows result in stronger sets as the fear of overpowered cards diminishes and the playtesters find time to get around to the coasters instead of just being worried about the broken cards. Good example was Homelands v. Alliances. I specifically recall reading about how they were too conservative with Homelands due to insufficient playtesting. But, the answer to that isn't to delay putting out expansions but to add more playtesters, start the process sooner, and/or better manage the process.

In message <20011127172510...@mb-mq.aol.com>, Curevei <cur...@aol.com> writes: >I've been a CCG playtester for various games. From what I've seen, the >playtesters have to make do as best they can given the time frame predetermined >by the company's need to put out product to make money. This is partly inevitably going to be true. However, Jyhad does so well and has done so well because it has managed to create a truly long-lasting playable game. In the long term, which is going to work better? Pumping out three expansions *right now* in order to make money and breaking the game, or pumping out numerous expansions over a longer period of time? [ quoted text not captured ]

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20011127130625...@mb-cq.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] That's why I prefaced it sales going reasonably well. I'm no expert ( althogh I am an experienced customer :) but I would imagine that most customers go through three stages of card purchasing. 1) Inital release splurge. 2) Interest is maintained and cards are being bought regularly. 3) Interest wanes and money starts going into other things. The best way to tell what stage the average customer is in is through sales. If the product is selling well then Mr Joe average is still in stage 2. It would be crazy to release a new set because Mr Average won't be spending any more money and now he's going to have to split it between two different products. You might get a very minior boost in profits but at the expense of shortening the overall lifespan if your product. There is obviously a need for there to be a timeline for expansions so that the company can plan ahead further enough but I think it's wise to hold off releasing new sets until demand for existing sets wanes or players are demanding it even while sales are strong.