timing windows/ resolution stages [LSJ and the learned public]

Is there any definative list of when a card can be played or when it resolves? Is there any priority to when this happens? If so why does card X resolve before card Y? Obviously I'm not looking for "umm, you play IG in the before strikes phase", I'm looking for the more obscure points of order. (don't ask me to tell you what they are, thats why they are obscure. :) ) thanks all Sutekh_23

[ quoted text not captured ] Not that I know of. The vast majority are: card text, with defaults of: only combat cards in combat, action modifiers and reactions only during the action before resolution unless card text indicates otherwise, action cards to start an action, master cards as MPAs, and events as DPAs.

[ quoted text not captured ] OK, so what happens with before range with this example: Meth 1: I rush X at Y stealth Meth 2: Action Sucessful Meth 1: Before range I play weather control Meth 2: I play torn signpost Meth 1: I play increased strength Meth 2: I play increased strength Meth 1: I play flesh of marble Meth 2: I play nothing Meth 1: I play nothing What happens here? Alternativly: Meth 1: I play protected resources Meth 2 I bleed Meth 1 for 2 Meth 1: I decline to block Meth 2: I jack the bleed to 5 Meth 1 I play telepathic counter What happens here? Thanks Sutekh_23

[ quoted text not captured ] Typically, acting minion's controller gets to order things in phase. best - chris

"sutekh_23" <bec...@aapt.net.au> wrote in message news:1153244772....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > > LSJ wrote: >> sutekh_23 wrote: >> > Is there any definative list of when a card can be played or when it >> > resolves? Is there any priority to when this happens? If so why does >> > card X resolve before card Y? Obviously I'm not looking for "umm, you >> > play IG in the before strikes phase", I'm looking for the more obscure >> > points of order. (don't ask me to tell you what they are, thats why >> > they are obscure. :) ) >> >> Not that I know of. >> The vast majority are: card text, with defaults of: only combat cards >> in combat, action modifiers and reactions only during the action before >> resolution unless card text indicates otherwise, action cards to start >> an action, master cards as MPAs, and events as DPAs. > > OK, so what happens with before range with this example: > > Meth 1: I rush X at Y stealth > Meth 2: Action Sucessful > Meth 1: Before range I play weather control > Meth 2: I play torn signpost > Meth 1: I play increased strength > Meth 2: I play increased strength > Meth 1: I play flesh of marble > Meth 2: I play nothing > Meth 1: I play nothing > > What happens here? As Chris mentioned, priority for playing cards during any particular game phase or step is generally: acting Methuselah first, then blocking (or other) Methuselah(s) afterwards. The rulebook section 1.6.1.5 "Sequencing" (in the "Overview of Library Cards, General" section) describes the rules for this. In fact, the sequencing rules don't usually result in the card-plays you describe above taking place in the sequence you've ordered them there. This is because *every time* more than one player wants to do something, the acting Meth has priority. After playing her first effect, she gets priority again to play the next effect, and continues playing effects until she's done and declares "pass". Then the blocking (or other) Meth gets priority and can play an effect - however, the acting Meth gets priority back as soon as "Meth 2" does play an effect, and can play more effects if she wishes. In practice it is common for the acting Meth to not explicitly declare that she's passing on opportunities to play additional cards every time the blocking Meth wants to play a card, but she does have the ability to "interrupt" after each play if she wishes. Note that this doesn't mean that the acting Meth's effects are un-interruptable: if there are effects that are necessarily played in reaction to her effects (e.g. Direct Intervention against the Weather Control), the blocking Meth does have the opportunity to "interrupt". But the blocking Meth doesn't get to play any "general" (i.e. non-special-case) effects until the acting Meth is done playing all of her general effects. So the sequence you describe should usually, instead, go like this: Meth 1: I rush X at Y stealth Meth 2: Action Sucessful Meth 1: Before range I play weather control Meth 1: I also play increased strength Meth 1: I also play flesh of marble Meth 1: I play nothing else at this time [then] Meth 2: I play torn signpost [Meth 1: I play nothing] Meth 2: I play increased strength [Meth 1: I play nothing] Meth 2: I play nothing When both Methuselahs have passed in succession, the phase (or step or whatever) ends and you move to the next step. Of course, it *could* happen a different way, if the acting Meth isn't interested in playing Flesh of Marble until Meth 2 has surprised Meth 1 by whipping out the Torn Signpost, for example. In that case it might go like: Meth 1: I rush X at Y stealth Meth 2: Action Sucessful Meth 1: Before range I play weather control Meth 1: I also play increased strength Meth 1: I play nothing else at this time [then] Meth 2: I play torn signpost [Meth 1: I play flesh of marble] [Meth 1: I play nothing else at this time] Meth 2: I play increased strength [Meth 1: I play nothing] Meth 2: I play nothing This is also why, if the acting Meth is interested in using an action modifier to increase bleed, but the target Meth is considering playing Deflection, there is no stalemate: if the acting Meth plays Conditioning, the target Meth can then play Deflection (when the acting Meth is done declaring effects), but if the acting Meth passes (wanting to see if the target Meth plays Deflection), and the target Meth *declines* to play Deflection, the phase for playing those effects has ended (because both Meths have passed) and the acting Meth cannot *then* play Conditioning. Or to > Alternativly: > > Meth 1: I play protected resources > Meth 2 I bleed Meth 1 for 2 > Meth 1: I decline to block > Meth 2: I jack the bleed to 5 > Meth 1 I play telepathic counter > > What happens here? In this case, it might look more like: Meth 1: [has Protected Resources in play] Meth 2: I bleed Meth 1 for 2 Meth 1: I decline to block Meth 2: I jack the bleed to 5 Meth 1: I play telepathic counter at superior Meth 2: I don't increase the bleed any further Meth 1: I burn 2 pool for the bleed that resolves at 3 (due to P.R.) Does this answer your questions at all? You're right to suspect that there are some subtleties to the timing of effects in VTES, but almost all of them are resolved by who the rulebook says has priority at any given moment, and what the particular card-texts are (e.g. Protected Resources' effect is that, no matter how large the bleed is that's coming at you, you will only burn 2 pool when the bleed resolves). Josh sometime rule maven

In message <4i4p4jF...@individual.net>, Joshua Duffin <joshduffin.RE MO...@SPAM.gmail.com> writes: >So the sequence you describe should usually, instead, go like this: > > Meth 1: I rush X at Y stealth > Meth 2: Action Sucessful > Meth 1: Before range I play weather control > Meth 1: I also play increased strength > Meth 1: I also play flesh of marble > Meth 1: I play nothing else at this time >[then] > Meth 2: I play torn signpost >[Meth 1: I play nothing] > Meth 2: I play increased strength >[Meth 1: I play nothing] > Meth 2: I play nothing > >When both Methuselahs have passed in succession, the phase (or step or >whatever) ends and you move to the next step. Once Weather Control has been played, Methuselah 1 can't pass without ordering the "before range" effect in. He can only pass when he has nothing else to do. If Methuselah 2 were to play it, control would go back to Methuselah 1 (because 2 doesn't pass, it just automatically goes back to 1) who could play any number of other effects - but would have to order in the Weather Control before passing. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:JhjtSUR6...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <4i4p4jF...@individual.net>, Joshua Duffin <joshduffin.RE > MO...@SPAM.gmail.com> writes: >>So the sequence you describe should usually, instead, go like this: >> >> Meth 1: I rush X at Y stealth >> Meth 2: Action Sucessful >> Meth 1: Before range I play weather control >> Meth 1: I also play increased strength >> Meth 1: I also play flesh of marble >> Meth 1: I play nothing else at this time >>[then] >> Meth 2: I play torn signpost >>[Meth 1: I play nothing] >> Meth 2: I play increased strength >>[Meth 1: I play nothing] >> Meth 2: I play nothing >> >>When both Methuselahs have passed in succession, the phase (or step or >>whatever) ends and you move to the next step. > > Once Weather Control has been played, Methuselah 1 can't pass without > ordering the "before range" effect in. He can only pass when he has > nothing else to do. > > If Methuselah 2 were to play it, control would go back to Methuselah 1 > (because 2 doesn't pass, it just automatically goes back to 1) who could > play any number of other effects - but would have to order in the > Weather Control before passing. Oh duh, thanks for that correction. I totally forgot, once I got going, that Weather Control was one of the specific cards in this example, which, as you say, puts another mandatory effect to play in the mix. Josh forgot about dre

[ quoted text not captured ] Thank you gentlemen. So what this boils down to is that the acting Meth maintains priority, with the ability to order any effects that he/she plays. After playing X cards, target Meth gets priority and can play X effects, ordering them as he/she wants. After this, acting Meth regains priority and sequence repeats until both Meths decline to play any more effects. Additionaly, if any said effects have mandatory effects, these must be ordered by the acting Meth no matter who plays them. Finally any effect that can cancel another effect must be played after the "offending" effect is played as this is the window for doing so. Does this look right? Thanks again guys

[ quoted text not captured ] Looks good, except that the "target Meth gets priority and can play X effects," should really be "target Meth gets priority and can play one effect, after which the acting Meth regains priority (and can then pass back to the target Meth.)" The playthrough that Josh gave for combat and bleeds in your example were good. The Target Meth can always ask the question to the Acting Meth, "Do you have anything else to play at this time?" The Acting Meth, after playing all the cards he wants to play, will eventually say, "No." Then, the Target Meth can either play a card (and priority goes back to the Acting Meth), or not (and then the window closes and you move on to the next step.) Ira

[ quoted text not captured ] Aha, thank you again gentlemen. This resolves some of the issues that have been bothering me of late so, thanks. Sutekh_23 still has brain fry from instants and interrupts from the other game

"sutekh_23" <bec...@aapt.net.au> wrote in message news:1153320038.1...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... > Aha, thank you again gentlemen. This resolves some of the issues that > have been bothering me of late so, thanks. You're welcome! > Sutekh_23 > still has brain fry from instants and interrupts from the other game Yes, this game will only fry your brain in other ways. :-) Josh by having too many gehenna events in play at the same time, for example

[ quoted text not captured ] Im trying to remember examples of peculiar timing situations, but of course I cant think of them now apart from this. Aparently Psyche!, Combat, Celerity, U , [Jyhad:U, V:TES:U, FN:PA2, CE:U/PB] [cel] Press. [CEL] Only usable at the end of a combat when both combatants are still ready. Enter combat with the opposing minion. This is a new combat. isnt usable with Marthe Dizier, 10, pro AUS CEL OBF PRE, Toreador Antitribu, 3, [G] Sabbat, Black Hand: When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a card she played during that combat you your hand. +1 bleed. meaning she cant burn a blood to get a played psyche back even though it is a combat card and therefore according to the above must be played in the combat, again meaning that she should be able to recycle it. That doesnt make sense to me. I know I've come across other things and ruligs during all these years, where I thought the timing was weird. I'll try to think of them.. :)

<niko...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1153333776.0...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com... > Im trying to remember examples of peculiar timing situations, but of > course I cant think of them now apart from this. > > Aparently > Psyche!, Combat, Celerity, U , [Jyhad:U, V:TES:U, FN:PA2, CE:U/PB] > [cel] Press. [CEL] Only usable at the end of a combat when both > combatants are still ready. Enter combat with the opposing minion. This > is a new combat. > > isnt usable with > > Marthe Dizier, 10, pro AUS CEL OBF PRE, Toreador Antitribu, 3, [G] > Sabbat, Black Hand: When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a > blood to move a card she played during that combat you your hand. +1 > bleed. > > meaning she cant burn a blood to get a played psyche back even though > it is a combat card and therefore according to the above must be played > in the combat, again meaning that she should be able to recycle it. > That doesnt make sense to me. I know I've come across other things and > ruligs during all these years, where I thought the timing was weird. > I'll try to think of them.. :) You're right. Psyche! is an unusual case because, by its own card-text, the superior effect is not played during combat even though it is a combat card. That is, the first combat has to have already ended for you to be able to start a new one (you can't start a new combat while the old combat is still going on). That's why Marthe can't retrieve a superior Psyche! with her ability: the Psyche! wasn't played "during" either of the two combats, if she plays it at superior. (She *can* retrieve a Psyche! if she uses it to press (the [cel] effect) in combat 1, after combat 1 ends, and then immediately play that same Psyche! at superior to start combat 2. But after combat 2 ends, she would not be able to again put it in your hand, because the second time, it wasn't played during combat.) This timing is, as you say, kinda weird. The fact that it has a basis in card-text makes it make sense to me, at least. :-) Josh some kind of constructionist

Or perhaps Psyche! should be a combat card (inferior), in addition to an action modifier (superior), in addition to a reaction card (superior). Would that remedy its weirdness? gNat [ quoted text not captured ]

tigernat1 wrote: > Or perhaps Psyche! should be a combat card (inferior), in addition to > an action modifier (superior), in addition to a reaction card > (superior). Would that remedy its weirdness? Yes it would, as well as severely nerfing it since it would only be playable once an action at superior.

"Robert Scythe" <rob...@exploretalent.com> wrote in message news:1153359801.4...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Correct. On both counts. :-) Josh "my car is not a convention" -L. Scott Johnson

I have another timing question. What about the stealing of things (ex: equipment or retainers)? Example: I try Fleecing of the Gaje on Blood Tears of Kephran. Can I burn the equipment (gaining 2 blood) to make the action fail? Example: Not sure what card would apply... but lets say you attempt to steal a retainer/equipment/blood... but then you move the retainer/equipment/blood to a different vampire via Heidelberg Castle, Germany. Does action fail?

adam....@gmail.com wrote: > I have another timing question. > > What about the stealing of things (ex: equipment or retainers)? Steal when the effect resolves. > Example: I try Fleecing of the Gaje on Blood Tears of Kephran. Can I > burn the equipment (gaining 2 blood) to make the action fail? Yes. > Example: Not sure what card would apply... but lets say you attempt to > steal a retainer/equipment/blood... but then you move the > retainer/equipment/blood to a different vampire via Heidelberg Castle, > Germany. Does action fail? Moot, as Heidelberg cannot be used during an action.

[ quoted text not captured ] Hmmm... makes me wonder about something else then. (May have been playing this wrong). Someone takes the action to steal Erciyes Fragments, can I tap it then to put a card on it?

adam....@gmail.com wrote: > Someone takes the action to steal Erciyes Fragments, can I tap it then > to put a card on it? Yes. Actions don't resolve when announced. So long as you tap EF before the steal resolves, you're good.

adam....@gmail.com wrote: > LSJ wrote: > > Moot, as Heidelberg cannot be used during an action. > > > Hmmm... makes me wonder about something else then. (May have been > playing this wrong). > > Someone takes the action to steal Erciyes Fragments, can I tap it then > to put a card on it? The reason that Heidelburg cannot be tapped during an action is card text. Erciyes Fragment has no such text, so you can tap it. Witness1 -ItE

<adam....@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1153489801.2...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] As others have noted, this is legal. A common response to the stealing action is to "spike" the card by tapping it to put a useless card from your prey's ash heap on it. The best cards for this purpose are "once per game" effects that have already been played, like Giant's Blood or Ancient Influence, but a discipline that the stealing Meth's vamps can't play is almost as good. - Pat