rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Madness Network and Change of Target in mandatory actions

15 messages from 9 participants · 12 July 2001 – 13 July 2001
original thread on Google Groups

Itamar G. Jr.

If I put MN into play, and my ready untap Malk, performs a bleed action against my prey, during her's minion phase. Does she can play reaction cards, assuming that it's during her turn? Other question: My vamp started the minion phase without blood, so he attempt a hunt action and he is blocked. May I play Change of Target? (If I do so, he'll not hunt again this turn, but it's mandatory in this case right?)

LSJ

>===== Original Message From ita...@hotmail.com (Itamar G. Jr.) ===== >If I put MN into play, and my ready untap Malk, performs a bleed >action against my prey, during her's minion phase. Does she can play >reaction cards, assuming that it's during her turn? Yes. [1.6.3.5] >Other question: My vamp started the minion phase without blood, so he >attempt a hunt action and he is blocked. May I play Change of Target? Yes. >(If I do so, he'll not hunt again this turn, but it's mandatory in >this case right?) He'll still be unable to take any action except "hunt", yes. Since Change of Target prohibits the hunt, he'll be stuck and can take no action. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ ------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at: http://MailAndNews.com

Jason Bell

"LSJ" <vte...@MailAndNews.com> wrote > >(If I do so, he'll not hunt again this turn, but it's mandatory in > >this case right?) > > He'll still be unable to take any action except "hunt", yes. > Since Change of Target prohibits the hunt, he'll be stuck and > can take no action. This seems odd to me. So by this rule, if my minion is equipped with Talbot's Chainsaw, he can take no action if he has no blood? How about if my minion with 0 blood successfully hunts, then plays Freak Drive? I had always assumed that if the mandatory hunt was prohibited (by NRA or otherwise), the hungry vampire went about his business. - Jason Bell

LSJ

>===== Original Message From "Jason Bell" <Jason...@mail.com> ===== >"LSJ" <vte...@MailAndNews.com> wrote > >> >(If I do so, he'll not hunt again this turn, but it's mandatory in >> >this case right?) >> >> He'll still be unable to take any action except "hunt", yes. >> Since Change of Target prohibits the hunt, he'll be stuck and >> can take no action. > >This seems odd to me. > >So by this rule, if my minion is equipped with Talbot's Chainsaw, >he can take no action if he has no blood? Right. >How about if my minion with 0 blood successfully hunts, then >plays Freak Drive? Stuck. >I had always assumed that if the mandatory hunt was prohibited >(by NRA or otherwise), the hungry vampire went about his >business. Section 6 is pretty clear on the subject. "A ready vampire with no blood cannot take any action except hunt." [p.22] [ quoted text not captured ]

Aaron

"Jason Bell" <Jason...@mail.com> wrote in message news:<cRl37.71523$ih.15...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] How about if you hunt, change target to untap. then gain blood from another source? a raving vampire for example. Now are you free from having to hunt again? Aaron

Reyda

"Aaron" <roans...@yahoo.com> > How about if you hunt, change target to untap. > then gain blood from another source? a raving vampire for example. > Now are you free from having to hunt again? You gained blood from another source. Fine. So you are not compelled to hunt again, since your vampire is not at zero blood. You can do whatever you want. reyda

Jason Bell

"LSJ" <vte...@MailAndNews.com> wrote > Section 6 is pretty clear on the subject. > "A ready vampire with no blood cannot take any action except hunt." > [p.22] I suppose, but this was not clear when I learned the rules. From historical records: Jyhad rule book, p. 23: "A ready vampire that begins the minion phase with no blood /must/ hunt as its action..." (no reference to the minion being unable to take other actions if unable to hunt) Vampire rule book, p. 23: "Note: An untapped vampire in the active region with no blood must hunt as his next action." (no reference to the minion being unable to take other actions if unable to hunt) Sabbat War rule book, p. 22 "A ready vampire with no blood cannot take any action except hunt." (same as FN rule book) I assume this was a clarification, not a rules change from V:TES to Sabbat War, but it is not intuitive with the NRA floor rule, or with Talbot's Chainsaw. When did NRA first arrive, and was the "cannot take any action" always the de facto rule, or did it change with the Sabbat War rulebook? In any event, it looks like I'll have to break some bad news to my friend with the Nos Chainsaw deck. - Jason Bell

Xian

"Jason Bell" <Jason...@mail.com> wrote in message news:Hiq37.126615$Md.31...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com... > I assume this was a clarification, not a rules change from Perhaps...I think it was always implied, at minimum. > V:TES to Sabbat War, but it is not intuitive with the Definitely not. It's been around for ages. > NRA floor rule, or with Talbot's Chainsaw. I'm beginning to think that you don't know the meaning of the word intuitive. It *is* intuitive, actually. Any minion without blood *must* hunt, and can take no other action. I don't see how this is not intuitive, even with NRA in place. If the minion has already attempted to hunt, and he is untapped with 0 blood, he *still* must hunt. But, per NRA, he cannot attempt that action again. I don't see what's so difficult. With Talbot's Chainsaw, I don't see either how it's hard to figure out. The bearer cannot hunt, but hey he *has* to hunt. I can see how the card text might make it a little confusing, but in no place does the card say the he can take an action even if he has no blood. > When did NRA first arrive, and was the "cannot take any NRA was originally part of the Sensible Players Tournament Rules and/or the Golden Tenets, I can't remember which. However, they were both suggested by The Corrupter circa late '94, early '95, IIRC. Very early on, in other words. > action" always the de facto rule, or did it change with > the Sabbat War rulebook? That has always been the rule as long as I can recall. > In any event, it looks like I'll have to break some bad > news to my friend with the Nos Chainsaw deck. Yup. Xian

Jason Bell

"Xian" <xi...@NOSPAMwaste.org> wrote > "Jason Bell" <Jason...@mail.com> wrote > > V:TES to Sabbat War, but it is not intuitive with the > > Definitely not. It's been around for ages. > > > NRA floor rule, or with Talbot's Chainsaw. > > I'm beginning to think that you don't know the meaning of the word > intuitive. It *is* intuitive, actually. Nope, I definitely know what intuitive means. I had read Talbot's Chainsaw as telling the minion it could not hunt (under any circumstances, even where the minion had no blood). And in the Jyhad Talbot's, the card gave pretty clear instructions about what the minion bearing it was to do during the turn. I assumed those instructions held regardless of where the minion stood on blood, or else the card would have mentioned it. Of course I was wrong, but so was most of my play group, who read it the same way, and made the same assumption about hunting generally. > Any minion without blood > *must* hunt, and can take no other action. I don't see how this is > not intuitive, even with NRA in place. Why can't you? Without the explicit Sabbat War "no other" text, what would make you believe that a vampire who can't hunt can do nothing? If that were "intuitive" as you describe, one might also believe that a vampire without blood cannot block. The confusion arose when I assumed that the "must hunt" triggers whenever a vampire has no blood and is untapped during the minion phase, but that trigger in some sense resolves when it could not be satisfied, not that it stays on, preventing any other action until it is satisfied. All this is neither here nor there. I understand the rule now, I was just surprised by it. - Jason Bell P.S. I'm actually feeling a bit grumpy, as I had this amazing rules puzzle involving a vampire with one blood, Force of Will, Vampiric Disease, the must hunt rule, and the fizzled action rule. I was dismayed to learn that Force of Will no longer untaps the vampire to bleed, ruining my question. Grrr.

Halcyan 2

>>This seems odd to me. >> >>So by this rule, if my minion is equipped with Talbot's Chainsaw, >>he can take no action if he has no blood? > >Right. > >>How about if my minion with 0 blood successfully hunts, then >>plays Freak Drive? > >Stuck. > Since we're talking about being stuck (in "limbo" so to speak), I might as well point out some other cases of being stuck. Besides an empty vamp with Talbot's: 1. An empty vampire with Reality on him 2. (Cornercase) A vampire with Reality and Lunatic Eruption on him 3. (Cornercase) A vampire with Triole's Revenge and either Talbot's or Reality. Did I miss any? Also, for future reference, if a vampire "must" do two different things which are mutually exclusive, is the vampire stuck in limbo or can he choose which one to do? For example, if card A says the minion "must enter combat as a D action every turn" and card B says the minion "must bleed grandprey with +10 bleed as a D action." What happens? Halcyan 2

Amphibius

LSJ <vte...@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message news:<3B8E...@MailAndNews.com>... > >Other question: My vamp started the minion phase without blood, so he > >attempt a hunt action and he is blocked. May I play Change of Target? > > Yes. > > >(If I do so, he'll not hunt again this turn, but it's mandatory in > >this case right?) > > He'll still be unable to take any action except "hunt", yes. > Since Change of Target prohibits the hunt, he'll be stuck and > can take no action. Just to make sure, I assume this is also the case if your hunting vampire gets blocked and you use Earth Meld or Majesty or Freak Drive to untap right?

LSJ

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: >Also, for future reference, if a vampire "must" do two different things which >are mutually exclusive, is the vampire stuck in limbo or can he choose which >one to do? For example, if card A says the minion "must enter combat as a D >action every turn" and card B says the minion "must bleed grandprey with +10 >bleed as a D action." What happens? Depends on how the cards are worded. Usually such conflicts are avoided by card text. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ

>===== Original Message From "Jason Bell" <Jason...@mail.com> ===== >"LSJ" <vte...@MailAndNews.com> wrote > >> Section 6 is pretty clear on the subject. >> "A ready vampire with no blood cannot take any action except hunt." >> [p.22] > >I suppose, but this was not clear when I learned the rules. >When did NRA first arrive, and was the "cannot take any >action" always the de facto rule, or did it change with >the Sabbat War rulebook? --- Begin quote --- 16) Suppose a vampire starts the minion phase empty and untapped, so hunts; this action is blocked and undone with Obedience. Is the vampire free to take another action that turn, or will it have to wait until the next turn to try hunting again? It will have to wait until its next turn. The only action that a vampire with no blood can take is to hunt. --- End quote --- [DTR 19941128] [ quoted text not captured ]

Reyda

"Amphibius" <to...@elobserv.org> a écrit dans le message news: 1c7610e8.01071...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] No and yes =) You were blocked while hunting. If you are still at zero blood after combat (majesty and freak drive costs a bood anyway, let's say you have a masochism on your vamp), you are compelled to hunt again. But you already tried to hunt so, due to the NRA Rule, you must stay untapped and can take no action. Until someone puts blood back on you, that is =) reyda

James Coupe

In message <OQu37.74577$ih.16...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>, Jason Bell <Jason...@mail.com> writes >> Any minion without blood >> *must* hunt, and can take no other action. I don't see how this is >> not intuitive, even with NRA in place. > >Why can't you? Without the explicit Sabbat War "no other" >text, what would make you believe that a vampire who can't >hunt can do nothing? That the standard template for such is: Must do something + Can't do something -------------------------- Do nothing Compare Thrown Gate + Immortal Grapple. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F It's me Nono small robot you know - friend of Ulysses B457CA213D7E6 It's me Nono small robot you know - friend of Ulysses 68C3695D623D5D