another rules question

ok during regular Jyhad play you draw new cards to replace old ones as they are played.... my question however refers to combat.....do you also get to draw cards during combat "as they are played" (unless of course the card specificly says do not replace until after combat) if you do get to draw more cards during combat this would seem quite silly to me as a combat deck would just be nuts.....can we say overkill????

In article <01be15e8$d73010c0$LocalHost@default>, WaRPeD <warp...@hotmail.com> writes [ quoted text not captured ] Not at all. It's how it's played. After all, there are only so many maneuvers you can play, only one Strke card. Lots of stackable cards cost blood. You only have one source of additional strikes etc. >can we say overkill???? We can, but it wouldn't be correct in this case. Combat is *hard* to do well with. If it wasn't so hard, perhaps it might be "overkill". However, a stealth bleed deck can play exactly the same trick though it, too, has some inherent restrictions. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net

In article <01be15e8$d73010c0$LocalHost@default>, "WaRPeD" <warp...@hotmail.com> wrote: > ok during regular Jyhad play you draw new cards to replace old ones as they > are played.... > > my question however refers to combat.....do you also get to draw cards > during combat "as they are played" (unless of course the card specificly > says do not replace until after combat) if you do get to draw more cards > during combat this would seem quite silly to me as a combat deck would just > be nuts.....can we say overkill???? Well, you're asking for trouble, here I think, so I'll respond before anyone else gets to, hopefully... Yes, you do get to replace any card (well not Wakes anymore) immediately, unless they explicitly say otherwise. I'm not sure why you think this is overkill. Combat decks need much larger combos to be effective. Think about it. The three basic types of deck are: Bleed, Vote, and Combat. The most ubiquitous exemplars of these types are Malkavian stealth & bleed, Ventrue titled vote, and oh, let's say Brujah rush (although Nos rush is more fun...) Malkavian Stealth & Bleed requires a small combo. Bleed action (which could be cardless), stealth, which against anything except a dedicated intercept, should only require 1, maybe 2 cards. Bleed modifier, which can now only be 1 card. Let's say Govern the Unaligned + Lost in Crowds + Conditioning, for a pool loss of (at least, more if the vampire has +bleed) 6. That's 3 cards. Okay, let's try Ventrue titled vote now. Costs a little more to get out your vampires, but once they're out, not too many problems. Kine Resources Contested or Conservative Agitation for pool loss to your prey (from 1 to a lot...). That's all you need. You could of course, get some pool out of it by throwing in a Voter Captivation, and refill the vampire and get 2 pool back... 1 card, maybe 2. You might need a majesty or Skin of Steel in your hand in case you get intercepted. Now...Brujah rush. Action: Bum's Rush (or whatever...Ambush, or previously played Haven Uncovered) generally 1 card...Torn Signpost (maybe Fists of Death), maybe a maneuver or two (let's say 0, just to keep this low), Immortal Grapple, and a strike. You might need a press after that, maybe more manuevers and Immortal Grapple, and quite likely another strike... Anyway, at minimum, that's 4 cards. Bare bones minimum. And you're doing...5 damage, assuming Undead Strength is the strike. Whoops, I forgot the Blur/additional strikes. 5 cards. Probably more. Combat decks *need* to cycle fast. If you look at the *good* combat decks that have been posted to the newsgroups recently (try Dejanews...) and look for PDB6's Nosferatu rush deck (Nosferatu clan letter, August, I believe), or...let's see...James Hamblin's (I hope I'm not seriously sleep-deprived & goofing up...) Brujah- antitribu rush deck of the same month. Also, my Tremere potence/thaumaturgy deck which was posted 11/1 in the Tremere clan newsletter. You'll notice when looking at each of these that there is very little space devoted to anything other than combat. (My deck is interesting, perhaps not horribly effective in the real world, but it has the same proportions as a good deck.) Now, because of this, and because combat needs bigger combos, it is really not all that horrible for combat decks to cycle through their cards faster. They *need* to in order to remain competitive...otherwise, combat would not be a viable strategy. Xian, hoping to provide some illumination... "they look at you funny when you attack things like a hungry mountain lion on crack" --greensea -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

WaRPeD wrote: "my question however refers to combat.....do you also get to draw cards during combat "as they are played" (unless of course the card specificly says do not replace until after combat) if you do get to draw more cards during combat this would seem quite silly to me as a combat deck would just be nuts.....can we say overkill????" As Xian elequently pointed out, this is how the game works. Yes, combat decks draw lots of cards (unless they aren't working real well...), and one of the most important aspects of building a combat deck is the deck's fluidity (i.e. its ability to cycle cards). As combat decks are inherrently more card and combo dependent, this needs to be the case, and more often than not, this is a disadvantage, as such combat decks tend to run out of card pretty quickly. If you compare the three main strategies: -A vote deck needs one or two cards to make you lose three pool (KRC and Bewitching Oration). -A S+B deck needs one or two cards to make you lose three or more pool (Govern and Lost in Crowds). -A Combat deck needs many cards to reliably send a 3 pool vampire to torpor (Bum's Rush, Manuver, Immortal Grapple, Strike, Press, Manuver, Immortal Grapple, Strike...) As such, the efficiency of individual cards in a combat deck is much less than that of a Vote or S+B deck. If a S+B deck has, in it hand, a Conditioning and a Lost in Crowds, you can be pretty assured of sucessfully causing your prey to lose a chunk of pool in one action. A combat deck needs a greater selection of specific cards at any one time to be assured of such results. When playing a combat deck, and I want to be able to kill someone, I need to have in my hand (or be lucky enough to draw at the correct time in combat) a Bum's Rush, a Torn Signpost, a manuver or two (or three...), an Immortal Grapple, an Undead Strength, a Disarm or a Fists of Death or a press and another Immortal Grapple if the vampire has more than 4 blood. Without the ability to cycle cards well, this is never going to happen. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "No other object has been misidentified as a flying saucer more often than the planet Venus." -Jesse "The Governor" Ventura

WaRPeD wrote: > ok during regular Jyhad play you draw new cards to replace old ones as they > are played.... > > my question however refers to combat.....do you also get to draw cards > during combat "as they are played" (unless of course the card specificly > says do not replace until after combat) . Yes. > if you do get to draw more cards > during combat this would seem quite silly to me as a combat deck would just > be nuts.....can we say overkill???? It doesn't win games as much as you might think. There's a maximum size to the library. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html