So how is V:TES doing business-wise---LSJ?

I would be very interested to know how the financial performance has been of V:TES for White Wolf. Questions like the following come to mind: Are the sales levels satisfying? Are costs equal to planned budgets? Is V:TES operating at a profit? Did one expansion outperform the other? Is White Wolf overall happy to feature V:TES? Can any information be given about these issues? If it is undesirable to mention specific numbers, some more vague expressions like "Yes, we are currently making money" and "No, we expected higher sales for expansion X" will do. Just curious! Menno

[ quoted text not captured ] VTES has been doing fine for White Wolf. The second print run of Sabbat War is virtually sold out at the White Wolf level (the distributors and retailers may still have some stock left). Both Final Nights and Bloodlines have sold at the break-even point or better, although they have not sold as well as Sabbat War. However, the biggest test for the long term of V:TES will come this summer with the new editio of the base set. Eventually any game will fade away without new players, and a new edition focused on the most popular clans is going to be V:TES's best (and in some ways only) shot at significantly expanding its player base for several years to come. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:40:09 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >However, the biggest test for the long term of V:TES will come this >summer with the new editio of the base set. Eventually any game will >fade away without new players, and a new edition focused on the most >popular clans is going to be V:TES's best (and in some ways only) >shot at significantly expanding its player base for several years to >come. Would this mean that the "camarilla" set will be available for a longer period of time and with more prints then any other expansion has until now? In otherwords, will the camarilla set really be a revised base set or just an expansion? Grtz Pepijn Kok

Pepijn wrote: > > On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:40:09 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> > wrote: > > >However, the biggest test for the long term of V:TES will come this > >summer with the new editio of the base set. Eventually any game will > >fade away without new players, and a new edition focused on the most > >popular clans is going to be V:TES's best (and in some ways only) > >shot at significantly expanding its player base for several years to > >come. > > Would this mean that the "camarilla" set will be available for a > longer period of time and with more prints then any other expansion > has until now? It means that, because it's a base set and it focuses on the most popular clans, that it will do more to expand the player base than any other set (based on other clans) could. That is, it is the best shot at significantly expanding the player base. The "for several years" is there because there will likely be no other set "focusing" on those "most popular" clans for that period of time. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:32:26 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >It means that, because it's a base set and it focuses on the most >popular clans, that it will do more to expand the player base than >any other set (based on other clans) could. That is, it is the best >shot at significantly expanding the player base. > >The "for several years" is there because there will likely be no other >set "focusing" on those "most popular" clans for that period of time. But does that mean that I can still get a box say 2 years from now without going to ebay or what ever backorder distributing center? That's the problem I face now with getting 2 boxes of Jyhad or Vtes..:) And offcourse with Sabbat wars.. especially concerning starters.

Pepijn wrote: > > On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:32:26 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> > wrote: > > >It means that, because it's a base set and it focuses on the most > >popular clans, that it will do more to expand the player base than > >any other set (based on other clans) could. That is, it is the best > >shot at significantly expanding the player base. > > > >The "for several years" is there because there will likely be no other > >set "focusing" on those "most popular" clans for that period of time. > > But does that mean that I can still get a box say 2 years from now > without going to ebay or what ever backorder distributing center? The statement doesn't address production or distribution at all, no. Production costs and projected return (sales) are what determines what gets reprinted (and when). [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ writes: >However, the biggest test for the long term of V:TES will come this >summer with the new editio of the base set. Eventually any game will >fade away without new players, and a new edition focused on the most >popular clans is going to be V:TES's best (and in some ways only) >shot at significantly expanding its player base for several years to >come. Are the Cam clans actually the most popular? My impression in both tournament and casual games is that people like the newer clans fully as much and the only "advantages" of the Cam clans are a) the Traditions and b) cheaper cards. !Brujah, !Malk, Assamite, Setites, !Tremere (?), and *especially* Lasombra all seem megapopular to me. I'd say Sabbat War is fully qualified as a base set other than being semi-out-of-print. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson

CurtAdams wrote: > LSJ writes: > >However, the biggest test for the long term of V:TES will come this > >summer with the new editio of the base set. Eventually any game will > >fade away without new players, and a new edition focused on the most > >popular clans is going to be V:TES's best (and in some ways only) > >shot at significantly expanding its player base for several years to > >come. > > Are the Cam clans actually the most popular? My impression in both > tournament and casual games is that people like the newer clans fully > as much and the only "advantages" of the Cam clans are a) the > Traditions and b) cheaper cards. !Brujah, !Malk, Assamite, Setites, When talking about "exapnding the player base", "popular" means something other than game mechanics value. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ writes: >> Are the Cam clans actually the most popular? My impression in both >> tournament and casual games is that people like the newer clans fully >> as much and the only "advantages" of the Cam clans are a) the >> Traditions and b) cheaper cards. !Brujah, !Malk, Assamite, Setites, >When talking about "exapnding the player base", "popular" means >something other than game mechanics value. Understood; but I think these clans are fully popular in the sense that people like to play them for themselves and the consequent playstyles rather than because they're more likely to win. I've yet to see the Assamites win a game but they still get played a lot. I don't think the CCG players in general enjoy playing Brujah more than !Brujah, Ventrue more than Lasombra, etc. I know Cam clans are more popular amongst RPG players; does WW see the RPG players as the primary source for new players rather than board and CCG players? IME Jyhad players come from board/CCG backgrounds much more often than WoD backgrounds. As long as most players come from that background and as long as both Cam and Sabbat are playable, I don't expect much preference for either Cam or Sabbat. [ quoted text not captured ]

curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) wrote in message news:<20020312004011...@mb-mv.aol.com>... *snip something else* > I've > yet to see the Assamites win a game but they still get played a lot. *snip something else* I扉e won a few games with my assamite decks, be it intercept, bloat, weenie bleed or straight out rush (although intercept works best).

LSJ wrote: > CurtAdams wrote: > >>LSJ writes: >> >>>However, the biggest test for the long term of V:TES will come this >>>summer with the new editio of the base set. Eventually any game will >>>fade away without new players, and a new edition focused on the most >>>popular clans is going to be V:TES's best (and in some ways only) >>>shot at significantly expanding its player base for several years to >>>come. >>> >>Are the Cam clans actually the most popular? My impression in both >>tournament and casual games is that people like the newer clans fully >>as much and the only "advantages" of the Cam clans are a) the >>Traditions and b) cheaper cards. !Brujah, !Malk, Assamite, Setites, >> > > When talking about "exapnding the player base", "popular" means > something other than game mechanics value. > > I take it you're aiming at the stock of individuals who currently are happily buying the role playing game or other products that are more centered around the Camarilla compared to Sabbat and the independent clans? Sten During

Curt Adams wrote: >Understood; but I think these clans are fully popular in the sense >that people like to play them for themselves and the consequent >playstyles rather than because they're more likely to win. I've >yet to see the Assamites win a game but they still get played a lot. >I don't think the CCG players in general enjoy playing Brujah >more than !Brujah, Ventrue more than Lasombra, etc. I know >Cam clans are more popular amongst RPG players; does WW >see the RPG players as the primary source for new players >rather than board and CCG players? IME Jyhad players come >from board/CCG backgrounds much more often than WoD >backgrounds. As long as most players come from that background >and as long as both Cam and Sabbat are playable, I don't expect >much preference for either Cam or Sabbat. I did not come to Jyhad from V:tM. The idea of role-playing a vampire is, as a theme, just a bit too creepy for my taste. Playing vampires in a competitive card game doesn't bother me because one does not have to take it as seriously. Nonetheless, I find Sabbat vampires, and to a lesser extent, the main independent clans, sufficiently repulsive that I prefer to avoid playing them. I even avoid mixing anti-Nos in my Nossie decks. I doubt I am entirely unique in this regard. -- John Whelan

Curt Adams wrote: >> Are the Cam clans actually the most popular? My impression in both >> tournament and casual games is that people like the newer clans fully >> as much and the only "advantages" of the Cam clans are a) the >> Traditions and b) cheaper cards. !Brujah, !Malk, Assamite, Setites, The people most commonly encountered in tournament and casual play are typical of the people V:tES has already attracted, not necessarily the people they are trying to attract. In particular, these include people who have been attracted to the game specifically BY the Sabbat and Independent expansions. But it seems to me that it goes without saying that a game that focusses on vampires as its heroes and main characters, and bloodsucking as its theme, will not have universal appeal. At least some people will find the theme too unpleasant to enjoy, and some might even find it offensive. It also seems to me logical, that if you shift the focus to clans that are inhuman and depraved even by Vampire standards, you are going to narrow the appeal still further. This is essentially what has happened with the Sabbat and Independent expansions. In theory, at least, the theme of the V:tM RPG is about fighting against one's vampire nature and preserving one's humanity. The seven clans of the Camarilla are the ones whose members are usually portrayed as the most human and sympathetic. The others range from the wierd alien-ness of the independents, to the in-your-face depravity of the Sabbat. -- John Whelan

In message <20020314053838...@mb-fr.news.cs.com>, Nystulc <nys...@cs.com> writes: >I did not come to Jyhad from V:tM. The idea of role-playing a vampire is, as a >theme, just a bit too creepy for my taste. Playing vampires in a competitive >card game doesn't bother me because one does not have to take it as seriously. I went the other way, though the number of times I've actually had chance to play *decent* V:tM are few. (Having NPCed LARPs, Werewolf and similar, along with some terrible V:tM.) >Nonetheless, I find Sabbat vampires, and to a lesser extent, the main >independent clans, sufficiently repulsive that I prefer to avoid playing them. >I even avoid mixing anti-Nos in my Nossie decks. I doubt I am entirely unique >in this regard. I, like many others, tend to play more the game. The atmosphere and theme is *nice* as well, but it's not over-riding. I do tend to think in terms of theme when imagining combos (though not exclusively so), but tend to tweak when actually building things. e.g. that nice idea for a Lasombra deck and though the <insert random clan> would never even think about working with the Lasombra, just look at the opportunities if you insert <x>, <y> and <z>. -- James Coupe Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks, PGP 0x5D623D5D And the rich folks hate the poor folks. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 All of my folks hate all of your folks, 13D7E668C3695D623D5D It's American as apple pie.

>I did not come to Jyhad from V:tM. The idea of role-playing a vampire is, as >a >theme, just a bit too creepy for my taste. Playing vampires in a competitive >card game doesn't bother me because one does not have to take it as >seriously. I was a fan, if not a player, of V:TM prior to playing Jyhad. Leading to ... >Nonetheless, I find Sabbat vampires, and to a lesser extent, the main >independent clans, sufficiently repulsive that I prefer to avoid playing >them. >I even avoid mixing anti-Nos in my Nossie decks. I doubt I am entirely >unique >in this regard. I find that what I like or dislike in one game tends to have little relevance to what I like or dislike in another. Disciplines I like in the RPG, I find a bore to play with in the CCG. Others that I can't stand in the RPG, I play all of the time in the CCG. As for the Sabbat, however, I find them far more interesting in both the RPG and CCG. Can't relate to their philosophies in the RPG, but Camarilla = dull. Doesn't help that the Camarilla is only 7 clans where the Sabbat is about 13. Nor does it help that the Sabbat have two extra exclusive disciplines, both of which do interesting things. As for the Independents, I find them much more interesting in the RPG, at least nowadays.

John Whelan writes: >The people most commonly encountered in tournament and casual play are typical >of the people V:tES has already attracted, not necessarily the people they are >trying to attract. In particular, these include people who have been attracted >to the game specifically BY the Sabbat and Independent expansions. As far as I can tell, the game is overwhelmingly dominated by people who came in from other CCGs and were well into the game before they knew any of the background subtleties. Further, almost all of them started pre- Sabbat. >It also seems to me logical, that if you shift the focus to clans that are >inhuman and depraved even by Vampire standards, you are going to narrow >the appeal still further. This is essentially what has happened with the Sabbat >and Independent expansions. It doesn't seem to lower the appeal much. You're the first person I've seen who avoids Sabbat because of the backstory. Tribute to the Master grossed me out when I first saw it but I don't think about the art anymore and all are in decks. To be honest, many of the Sabbat clans seems eeeevil only if you know the backstory. Lasombra, !Ven, !Nos, !Brujah, and !Gangrel don't seem any worse than their Cam brethren just on a card basis. !Malks wouldn't be different if the +Malks had Dem, which I expect the new ones will. !Tor, !Trem, and Tzi - OK, they're pretty creepy. >In theory, at least, the theme of the V:tM RPG is about fighting against one's >vampire nature and preserving one's humanity. The seven clans of the Camarilla >are the ones whose members are usually portrayed as the most human and >sympathetic. The others range from the wierd alien-ness of the independents, >to the in-your-face depravity of the Sabbat. > Righto. The question is, how many of those who know and care will play the game? I think it makes sense for WW to try to draw role-players into V:tES, but I don't expect it to work. I think the market's pretty much what you see now, and I think the Cam set would increase the market by 50% at most and probably less. It also *might* sell rather poorly in itself - I, and many of the other active players, have a gazillion Jyhad cards. I've no need for new ones unless they are a) all different [very hard] or b) escalate [in which case I'd be furious and not buy any anyway]. A well-balanced, part-reprint Cam set would be lower on my priority list than SW until I've got several more boxes of SW. If WW wants to bring in new players from V:tM I think the #1 top priority is a full set of good starter decks and links to Jyhad/V:tES base set sellers on the WW page. The learning curve needs to be cut down. To make a good deck takes well over a box w/o trading and newbies are unlikely to want to make lots of trades until they have some grasp of how things work. It makes sense for WW to wait until they have their own Cam set to sell, so they capture the sales, but I don't think that having a 2nd Cam set will help much in and of itself. PS I'd love to be wrong about the market size. [ quoted text not captured ]

>If WW wants to bring in new players from V:tM I think the #1 top priority >is a full set of good starter decks and links to Jyhad/V:tES base set sellers >on the WW page. The learning curve needs to be cut down. Any ideas for how to do this? >To make > a good deck takes well over a box w/o trading and newbies are unlikely >to want to make lots of trades until they have some grasp of how things >work. An initial investment in a CCG, IMO, will always involve multiple boxes. If players want good decks without investments, they kind of need someone to gift them the appropriate commons or whatever. At least with this game it doesn't require gifting the appropriate rares to make a good deck. >It makes sense for WW to wait until they have their own >Cam set to sell, so they capture the sales, but I don't think that having >a 2nd Cam set will help much in and of itself. I don't think so either. At best, a new base set provides an easier entry into the game than other sets and fills some sort of need. Thing is, the need being fulfilled with the new Cam set doesn't seem to be a particularly important one given how much Jyhad/V:TES has been printed. Don't want to wait until it dries up completely, though, or you leave a window for people to be frustrated by the lack of a base set. Do want to print a bunch to prevent having stocks of the latest base set be hard to acquire. >PS I'd love to be wrong about the market size. It's hard for me to imagine that there's some relatively large untapped player base out there. For some CCGs, including far less successful ones, I could. The way I'd envision gaining more players is through friends who play. So, best thing to do is try and prevent those friends from leaving. In other words, don't overly irritate your existing base. I'd expect the Cam set to be a necessary hit to set up profitability with future expansions. If so, what's important is surviving the hit.

>To be honest, many of the Sabbat clans seems eeeevil only >if you know the backstory. Lasombra, !Ven, !Nos, !Brujah, and !Gangrel >don't seem any worse than their Cam brethren just on a card basis. !Malks >wouldn't be different if the +Malks had Dem, which I expect the new ones >will. !Tor, !Trem, and Tzi - OK, they're pretty creepy. I object most vehemently! Nothing creepy about the Tremere Antitribu! They're just nice, cuddly, and friendly! Tremere Antitribu are your FRIENDS. Sheesh! What planet do YOU live on??? =P Halcyan 2

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3C8CEBF9...@white-wolf.com>... <<SNIP>> > However, the biggest test for the long term of V:TES will come this > summer with the new editio of the base set. Eventually any game will > fade away without new players, and a new edition focused on the most > popular clans is going to be V:TES's best (and in some ways only) > shot at significantly expanding its player base for several years to > come. Well a friend and I were talking about this last night. Specifically, what effort is WW doing to attract new players? I understand the attraction of a new base set to new players, they can get into the game and have access to the cards that have long been unavailable. But in addition, to releaseing a new base set, what else does WW have planned to get more players into the game. Also, is there a target audience, I know there is a thread right now about how many made it into V:TES courtesy of V:TM, and that is obviously one target market, but who else? Other CCG plaerss? VTES is very different from most CCGs out there, so I am just wondering how WW will try to accomplish this. Just someone who is curious :)

> >Well a friend and I were talking about this last night. Specifically, >what effort is WW doing to attract new players? I understand the >attraction of a new base set to new players, they can get into the >game and have access to the cards that have long been unavailable. But >in addition, to releaseing a new base set, what else does WW have >planned to get more players into the game. Also, is there a target >audience, I know there is a thread right now about how many made it >into V:TES courtesy of V:TM, and that is obviously one target market, >but who else? Other CCG plaerss? VTES is very different from most CCGs >out there, so I am just wondering how WW will try to accomplish this. >Just someone who is curious :) Well, I think the Storyline Tournaments were a runaway success. From what I've seen, it's rekindled a lot of interest in the game and helped many players get more involved with the VTES community. Halcyan 2

>>If WW wants to bring in new players from V:tM I think the #1 top priority >>is a full set of good starter decks and links to Jyhad/V:tES base set >sellers >>on the WW page. The learning curve needs to be cut down. Cut down the learning curve? Really? I really don't want to see a "dumbing down" of the rules like from Jyhad --> VTES. I don't know about the rest of you, but I *like* the complexity and intricacies of the game. It might be a bit steeper of a learning curve for new players, but once they begin to get it, I'm sure they'll also appreciate all of the subtleties of the game. Halcyan 2

cur...@aol.com writes: >>If WW wants to bring in new players from V:tM I think the #1 top priority >>is a full set of good starter decks and links to Jyhad/V:tES base set sellers >>on the WW page. The learning curve needs to be cut down. >Any ideas for how to do this? Obviously I wasn't clear. I think the starters are key. You need to know a lot of Jyhad to construct decks, especially on a budget. Somebody who thinks Toreador are the cat's pajamas needs to be able to go out and buy a deck, sit down with his Malk-loving friend, and play a fun game. Having a full set of starters is IMO key. Now that I think about it, a little insert card with a "how to play this deck" description might help. Even better if you can put in a comment that the clan can be used other ways. Another idea would be pointers to web pages for starting players, which perhaps some of us could contribute. >An initial investment in a CCG, IMO, will always involve multiple boxes. If >players want good decks without investments, they kind of need someone to gift >them the appropriate commons or whatever. At least with this game it doesn't >require gifting the appropriate rares to make a good deck. If people must spend $200 to try out your game, they won't try out your game. You have to be able to have fun with $20 and a few hours of prep, tops. [ quoted text not captured ]

Halcyan 2 wrote: > cur...@aol.com wrote: > > The learning curve needs to be cut down. > > I really don't want to see a "dumbing down" of the rules like from Jyhad --> > VTES. > > I don't know about the rest of you, but I *like* the complexity and intricacies > of the game. It might be a bit steeper of a learning curve for new players, but > once they begin to get it, I'm sure they'll also appreciate all of the > subtleties of the game. There are "good complexities" and "bad complexities". Good ones don't need to be learned as rules - they appear as wrinkles and subtle choices in strategies. Bad complexities are those that add nothing to strategy but simply confuse players - not just new ones but all of us - as to how to play the game by rules. Granted, the good complexities often come at the cost of accepting the bad ones but it is by no means a given thing. In fact, my highest admiration for game designers go to the guys who have a sense for how to create interesting strategy choices within the framework of a simple, eloquent game design. When I've designed games in the past, I've often been struck by how much I can improve them with a pair of scissors as opposed to a marking pencil: get rid of the excess, stupid, overdesigned fat and what's left is often quite good. You really should not have any argument with Ian's statement. Ideally, we wouldn't have to dumb down _the game_ by simplifying certain rules. Fred

>>An initial investment in a CCG, IMO, will always involve multiple boxes. If >>players want good decks without investments, they kind of need someone to >gift >>them the appropriate commons or whatever. At least with this game it >doesn't >>require gifting the appropriate rares to make a good deck. > >If people must spend $200 to try out your game, they won't try out >your game. You have to be able to have fun with $20 and a few hours >of prep, tops. For a demo to see if it's worth pursuing, sure. I'm not sure if that's what you are talking about. If it is, I'm not sure there's any disagreement. Anyone who doesn't plan on dropping a couple of hundred once they decide to play regularly shouldn't be looking at CCGs as a hobby, though. Best I can recall, for almost every game I've gotten into, I started by playing other people's decks. There is one sort of exception. I have tried collecting Tempest of the Gods with the idea that playing might happen. Do you remember whether I did that much when I started playing with James's Jyhad group? I know Andy threw together a Nos deck for me, but I vaguely recall waiting for an order of boxes before I started building my own decks.

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20020314191120...@mb-mq.aol.com>... > > > >Well a friend and I were talking about this last night. Specifically, > >what effort is WW doing to attract new players? I understand the > >attraction of a new base set to new players, they can get into the > >game and have access to the cards that have long been unavailable. But > >in addition, to releaseing a new base set, what else does WW have > >planned to get more players into the game. Also, is there a target > >audience, I know there is a thread right now about how many made it > >into V:TES courtesy of V:TM, and that is obviously one target market, > >but who else? Other CCG plaerss? VTES is very different from most CCGs > >out there, so I am just wondering how WW will try to accomplish this. > >Just someone who is curious :) > Well isn't that what we have princes for they signed up for the job of promoting the game. > > Well, I think the Storyline Tournaments were a runaway success. From what I've > seen, it's rekindled a lot of interest in the game and helped many players get > more involved with the VTES community. > > Halcyan 2 The question I have is what after the new Cam set it's obvious we need a bloodline second expansion to make it playable and I've heard rumors about Mage and changeling expansions. So my real question is is there life after the new Camerilla set?? Emile insert random quote here

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.com> wrote > > I find that what I like or dislike in one game tends to have little relevance > to what I like or dislike in another. Disciplines I like in the RPG, I find a > bore to play with in the CCG. Others that I can't stand in the RPG, I play all > of the time in the CCG. My history with the game goes like this: 1) Huge fascination with vampire mythology since early childhood 2) Coming across a box of Jyhad while in a game store for something other than games 3) Buying a bunch of Jyhad boxes for my friends as X-Mas gifts so I would have people to play with 4) Discovering that the game was based on an RPG (something I had avoided since grade 9 when I discovered girls) 5) Buying the Ventrue and Brujah clanbooks to find out more about the world the cards inhabited 6) Discovering that there were people who met in a park in Windsor to play 'live-action' vampire games 7) Deciding that I wanted to test my improvisational acting skills and meet kewl goth chicks 8) Eventually... years later, I tried the pen-and-paper RPG after much resistance to the idea 9) Playing V:tM online in New Bremen (White Wolf's chat room) until I was banned for being a 'problem player' 10) Strong aversion to any form of RPG, whether live or pen-and-paper, unless I am positive that the people I play with are not twinks, morons or criminally insane. 11) Re-discovery of the CCG after White Wolf takes over (along with a realization that we were playing everything *very* wrong) 12) At some point I became the best Jyhad player in the world... but you all know that already. > As for the Sabbat, however, I find them far more interesting in both the RPG > and CCG. Can't relate to their philosophies in the RPG, but Camarilla = dull. > Doesn't help that the Camarilla is only 7 clans where the Sabbat is about 13. > Nor does it help that the Sabbat have two extra exclusive disciplines, both of > which do interesting things. I agree. Thematically, the Sabbat appeals to me far more than the Vanilla-Camarilla. I enjoy the whole descent into depravity thing as much as the next guy, but the Sabbat in general has themes that appeal to me far more. While I don't really enjoy the ultra-violence aspect, I do enjoy the Sabbat for its inherently anarchistic (in a bad way) structure and its history and conflict. I enjoy their mock-religious rites and their view of history as one big conflict against the Antedilluveans and their pawns. The Camarilla bores me mostly. I always liked the Gangrel though, but then look what happened to them. They got bored of the Cam too. > As for the Independents, I find them much more interesting in the RPG, at least > nowadays. Yeah. I've always thought that they made for more interesting antagonists to the Camarilla than the Sabbat did. The Sabbat is good for a team-vs-team rumble but how does one deal with slow corruption or ghostly spies or assassination attempts or illusions? These can add up to some very intriguing conflicts and scenarios. I just wish it was possible to play the game with people who weren't weenies (and I don't mean small caps). Cheers, WES

curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) wrote in message news:<20020312004011...@mb-mv.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Hi m8, about this , in my city all players playing v.tes are too players of RpG vampire and woD and at least here , the marority of us prefer play with Sabbat clans & independent, it may be cause the Cam is very subtle but the Sabbat The Tzimice & Lasombra are the prefers here) asre wide played. Here too is wide played the Ravnos and Ofcourse as CAM clan the Ventrue is the most played here , before that TRemere and Toreador. ? Jyhad players come > from board/CCG backgrounds much more often than WoD again , at least in my city ALL players ( over 30) have a background of RPG and woD before than the other CCG. If WW is planning a EXP with the Wod as central theme , well I LIKE SO MUCH IT! but i think too that they might think about new players and collectors, so the market is big and it expand the game better than only focused in Wod players. to me , the politic of WW about V.Tes is VERY GOOD, before the game was lost in time , now is more playabled for all , and the BL Exp is Nice with the Disciplines Combo. Nice idea . Well , I hope that this help. CU ALL!!

nys...@cs.com (Nystulc) wrote in message news:<20020314060742...@mb-fr.news.cs.com>... > Curt Adams wrote: > > >> Are the Cam clans actually the most popular? My impression in both > >> tournament and casual games is that people like the newer clans fully > >> as much and the only "advantages" of the Cam clans are a) the > >> Traditions and b) cheaper cards. !Brujah, !Malk, Assamite, Setites, > > The people most commonly encountered in tournament and casual play are typical > of the people V:tES has already attracted, not necessarily the people they are > trying to attract. In particular, these include people who have been attracted > to the game specifically BY the Sabbat and Independent expansions. > > But it seems to me that it goes without saying that a game that focusses on > vampires as its heroes and main characters, and bloodsucking as its theme, will > not have universal appeal. Hum, i think that u are wrong m8, the RPG isn´t focused in vampires as herores, at least i think that the idea is the inverse, play a vampire is a form of see as the human one can/might be, so, the Vampires in no case are the heroes. THe theme (hehehe Bloodsucking) is the idea of lose of Humanity , something that u if u wacth around of the world is occurs right now, when the game was released too many people tkink like u , but it´s wrong m8, when i play/read a book of Wod i don´t think in drink the blood of my friends etc... u konw, the game was released with the idea of live without the light of sun, without really friends , be a begin of eternal life while see as the friends/ parents/enemies and other die and u still. otherwise, the idea is so Big and everyone is invited to tkink & play as want. Well , that´s all hope that this help. At least some people will find the theme too > unpleasant to enjoy, and some might even find it offensive. > > It also seems to me logical, that if you shift the focus to clans that are > inhuman and depraved even by Vampire standards, you are going to narrow the > appeal still further. This is essentially what has happened with the Sabbat > and Independent expansions. > > In theory, at least, the theme of the V:tM RPG is about fighting against one's > vampire nature and preserving one's humanity. The seven clans of the Camarilla > are the ones whose members are usually portrayed as the most human and > sympathetic. The others range from the wierd alien-ness of the independents, > to the in-your-face depravity of the Sabbat. > YES , u catch the idea m8, The sabbat are the cruel part in us , and the CAM is the most near that a vamp can be as a human (like us) CU M8!! > -- John Whelan

In message <cbf416fb.02031...@posting.google.com>, Emile Bosman <ebo...@hotmail.com> writes: >So my real question is is there life after the new Camerilla set?? A press release to occur regarding that has been mentioned. A number of players have asked for things to slow down, however. [ quoted text not captured ]

ebo...@hotmail.com (Emile Bosman) wrote in message news:<cbf416fb.02031...@posting.google.com>... > The question I have is what after the new Cam set it's obvious we need > a bloodline second expansion to make it playable and I've heard rumors > about Mage and changeling expansions. And where did you hear those rumours? I think it would be more then unlikely that an expansion like that would be made. And arcadia: the wyldhunt, already was a changling game that failed... > So my real question is is there life after the new Camerilla set?? As already mentioned, as soon as the press release is out stating the release date for the camarilla set, they will announce the new expansion, so there will be a new expansion..:) Pepijn Kok Prince of Amsterdam [ quoted text not captured ]

cur...@aol.com writes: >>If people must spend $200 to try out your game, they won't try out >>your game. You have to be able to have fun with $20 and a few hours >>of prep, tops. > >For a demo to see if it's worth pursuing, sure. I'm not sure if that's what >you are talking about. If it is, I'm not sure there's any disagreement. >Anyone who doesn't plan on dropping a couple of hundred once they decide >to play regularly shouldn't be looking at CCGs as a hobby, though. Probably true. But a terrible deal if you want to expand the player base. People start games as poor students, mostly, and then grow up to gainfully employed folks who can afford to buy the complete set of clan books and novels. V:tES currently serves only the latter market which IMO is a big part of why the player base is limited and aging. Magic has the marketing side down. It *looks* like you can have a playable deck for about $30. And actually, you can, but it would be *so* much better with just a *few* more boosters - and next thing you know you're buying complete play sets of out-of-print expansions. But, if you really have to, you can stop at $30 and have fun as long as you avoid the suitcases. My idea (expanded in another thread) is to make entry level low, like Magic, and the increase in $$ less essential for a successful deck but still great for variety, flexibility, showing off, etc. I'd like to think this could make money for WW while not being as brutally exploitive as Magic. Oh, and I'd get to have a lot more decks. But I would never let personal benefit affect my suggestions. Never. Honest. >Best I can recall, for almost every game I've gotten into, I started by playing >other people's decks. There is one sort of exception. I have tried collecting >Tempest of the Gods with the idea that playing might happen. > >Do you remember whether I did that much when I started playing with James's >Jyhad group? I know Andy threw together a Nos deck for me, but I vaguely >recall waiting for an order of boxes before I started building my own decks. > These days I have trouble remembering my mother's maiden name. All I remember from James' group was that he loved bloat. Did that guy who always played Gangrel decks ever come to James'? Again, though, it limits player recruitment if they must start with existing groups. It will certainly kill a substantially x-over from V:tM, if such a thing is possible. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Probably true. But a terrible deal if you want to expand the player base. >People start games as poor students, mostly, and then grow up to gainfully >employed folks who can afford to buy the complete set of clan books and >novels. V:tES currently serves only the latter market which IMO is a big >part of why the player base is limited and aging. Magic has the marketing >side down. It *looks* like you can have a playable deck for about $30. >And actually, you can, but it would be *so* much better with just a *few* >more boosters - and next thing you know you're buying complete play >sets of out-of-print expansions. But, if you really have to, you can >stop at $30 and have fun as long as you avoid the suitcases. Well, it might be important to consider that Jyhad/VTES is a bit of an anomaly in the CCG industry, in that it does indeed tend to attract an older, more mature crowd. Overall, I think there are much more older players than there are poor students (which is especially esignificant since all those players with jobs actually have the financial resources to pay more cards). Halcyan 2

halc...@aol.com writes: >Well, it might be important to consider that Jyhad/VTES is a bit of an anomaly >in the CCG industry, in that it does indeed tend to attract an older, more >mature crowd. >Overall, I think there are much more older players than there are poor students >(which is especially esignificant since all those players with jobs actually >have the financial resources to pay more cards). There are certainly more poor student game players than well-off adult game players. More importantly, that's where recruitment is most promising, when social networks are looser, when you meet a lot of new people , when you try more new things. It's just that those students don't play Jyhad. In a few years, they'll be employed adults with money - but they probably still won't play Jyhad, they'll spend their money on something else. Jyhad/V:tES is very friendly to *skilled* poor players because it's done well with the great rare problem. But it's hostile to newbie poor players because there are so many different categories and such a complexity of balancing. We will all benefit if that is addressed well; more players, more cards, more discussions, more ideas. Think of it this way. Most of us who missed the very beginning started by borrowing decent decks from player friends. Decks that had good balance, enough Wakes and Blood Dolls, and came with a little advice on how to play it. Probably decks that were easy to play; not one with Masks and Change of Target and complicated condition cards. I'm suggesting we put those decks in packages with "Starter" on them and sell them for $10 of whatever so anybody can start playing. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Magic has the marketing >side down. It *looks* like you can have a playable deck for about $30. >And actually, you can, but it would be *so* much better with just a *few* >more boosters - and next thing you know you're buying complete play >sets of out-of-print expansions. But, if you really have to, you can >stop at $30 and have fun as long as you avoid the suitcases. I'm not sure why you think Magic makes you believe you can have a playable deck for $30. If I spent $30 on Magic cards and tried to put a deck together, I'd get utterly stomped by anyone with a real deck. A tournament deck requires about 2-3 boxes of every expansion that is legal in the format. And, Magic has pretty much become a tournament game. The only way to compete with a $30 purchase is to play a sealed deck tournament or two draft tournaments or get into a sealed league. I'm currently playing in a sealed league that's potentially free, though in order for that, you have to have an existing collection. An article on it might be in issue #50 of Scrye. The advantage Magic has, in terms of ease of entry, is that limited play is huge. Anyone can plop down $20-25 and "compete" in a sealed tournament. Can completely ignore constructed like I have for ages (once it became clear that is was a ridiculous amount of money to have the cards to compete in constructed). Where limited in most CCGs is a break from the routine or is just plain bad, it is sufficiently fresh in Magic to be the only way to play.

cur...@aol.com writes: >I'm not sure why you think Magic makes you believe you can have a playable deck >for $30. If I spent $30 on Magic cards and tried to put a deck together, I'd >get utterly stomped by anyone with a real deck. A tournament deck requires >about 2-3 boxes of every expansion that is legal in the format. And, Magic >has pretty much become a tournament game. With $30 or so you can make a passable 2-color deck. You have enough land, you have enough spells, and you can play any spell in your deck with your land. You'll even get to pick and choose somewhat amongst your color-appropriate stuff. This is exactly what I did when I started, and while I lost more than I won, I did win often enough to want to continue. To get an analogous monoclan library, you'd need about 3 of each common for 20+ or so of each discipline (remember, your average V:tES library card is less likely to be usable in any given deck due to combo requirements). I don't know the new distribution, but that's got to be more than a box. Big purchase requirements scare people off. From when I was just starting, I remember one girl who showed up with a Toreador deck. She played V:tM and liked Tor and I think she'd brought her boyfriend with her. When she realized every decent deck should have 4-6 Wakes she said she wasn't interested if she had to buy that many cards to play one deck. (Obviously she must have traded to the Tor deck.) Never saw her, or the guy she came with, ever again. And that's exactly WW's target expansion market. >The advantage Magic has, in terms of ease of entry, is that limited play is >huge. Anyone can plop down $20-25 and "compete" in a sealed tournament. Limited is a good format for bringing people into the game too. James is running an OnTE league and getting in new players. Jyhad just isn't suitable for limited; but we need an alternative. To some extent the appearance of playability in a $30 Magic deck is deceptive. It plays the way a Magic deck should, but it's a great deal weaker than a tuned deck. Nonetheless, it looks good enough to a beginner, it's not going to be a complete joke even in a serious group, and if your friends are in the same boat everything will be fine. A tournament-only game is not enough. If Magic is down to tournament-only (I don't play it anymore) it's on the way out. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 16 Mar 2002 01:16:08 GMT, CurtAdams wrote: >A tournament-only game is not enough. If Magic is down to tournament-only (I >don't play it anymore) it's on the way out. Magic is again no longer the top selling CCG. LotR has just taken the top spot according to a trade journal. And Decipher now has the biggest overall market share. I plan to go to a LotR tournament myself tomorrow - should really be working on my deck or going to bed <yawn>. Andrew

Ulugh Beg wrote: >> But it seems to me that it goes without saying that a game that focusses on >> vampires as its heroes and main characters, and bloodsucking as its theme, >will >> not have universal appeal. > >Hum, i think that u are wrong m8, the RPG isn´t focused in vampires as >herores, at least i think that the idea is the inverse, play a vampire >is a form of see as the human one can/might be, so, the Vampires in no >case are the heroes. The Vampires are definitely the main characters, the protagonists, of he RPG, and the related fiction. That's all I meant by "heroes" and it is accepted usage. Dark Fantasy of this sort does not have universal appeal.

Wes wrote: >I agree. Thematically, the Sabbat appeals to me far more than the >Vanilla-Camarilla. I enjoy the whole descent into depravity thing as much as >the next guy, but the Sabbat in general has themes that appeal to me far >more. While I don't really enjoy the ultra-violence aspect, I do enjoy the >Sabbat for its inherently anarchistic (in a bad way) structure and its >history and conflict. I enjoy their mock-religious rites and their view of >history as one big conflict against the Antedilluveans and their pawns. It is, of course, the essential flaw of vampires that they have sacrificed their souls to escape death and live forever. The Sabbat carry this to extremes, by indulging in mad plots to avoid the inevitable final reckoning, the vampire Armageddon. It is all an empty delusion, of course. The Sabbat are just as doomed as the Camarilla vampires, whose strategy (equally effective, for the most part) is to pretend that Antediluvians do not exist. >The Camarilla bores me mostly. I always liked the Gangrel though, but then >look what happened to them. They got bored of the Cam too. Actually, they panicked and left the Camarilla (the stupid, boring ones, that is) because they thought they saw an Antediluvian and got spooked. The only Gangrel that were not timid sheep at heart stayed in the Camarilla, and one of them helped destroy the so-called "Antediluvian" that panicked the others.

>Big purchase requirements scare people off. From when I was just starting, I >remember one girl who showed up with a Toreador deck. She played V:tM and >liked Tor and I think she'd brought her boyfriend with her. When she >realized >every decent deck should have 4-6 Wakes she said she wasn't interested if she >had to buy that many cards to play one deck. (Obviously she must have traded >to the Tor deck.) Never saw her, or the guy she came with, ever again. And >that's exactly WW's target expansion market. At which point someone should have handled her a pile of cards to make her feel better! Another advantage of Jyhad/VTES is that many of the players (especially the more experienced ones) manage to amass quite a handful of spare cards, which are often used to give to newbies. I remember at my last tourney, when a newbie was ecstatic at being given a stack of Jyhad vampire cards. (And another newbie was *really* happy at getting someone's Brigitte Gebauier, which someone who already had a half dozen copies got in his pack). Halcyan 2

"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> wrote in message news:20020316024436...@mb-fl.news.cs.com... [ quoted text not captured ] You should probably use the term protagonists. XZ

halc...@aol.com writes: >At which point someone should have handled her a pile of cards to >make her feel better! She didn't want cards, she wanted Wakes. I've never known anybody who'd freely give away Wakes (or Blood Doll, Minion Tap, Taste, or 2nd/5th Tradition). We only had one player with a phenomenal collection (which wasn't bought until later anyway, when boxes got cheap) and he got a kick out of trying new decks and so needed as many as he could get. I had the second largest collection and I've been scrounging for Wakes my entire Jyhad life, only finally getting enough when I trading some BL rares for 28 last month (now I don't have enough pool management - but life is better) I'm sure there exist people who've bought dozens of boxes to get particular rares and would be willing to give away Wakes. But, really, there aren't many. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Emile Bosman" <ebo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:cbf416fb.02031...@posting.google.com... [someone else wrote] > > >Well a friend and I were talking about this last night. Specifically, > > >what effort is WW doing to attract new players? I understand the > > >attraction of a new base set to new players, they can get into the > > >game and have access to the cards that have long been unavailable. But > > >in addition, to releaseing a new base set, what else does WW have > > >planned to get more players into the game. Also, is there a target > > >audience, I know there is a thread right now about how many made it > > >into V:TES courtesy of V:TM, and that is obviously one target market, > > >but who else? Other CCG plaerss? VTES is very different from most CCGs > > >out there, so I am just wondering how WW will try to accomplish this. > > >Just someone who is curious :) > > > Well isn't that what we have princes for they signed up for the job of > promoting the game. This is true, but it's also true that no matter how much princes love the game and want to promote it, they (we) don't have our own money invested in the game being profitable. White Wolf does. As such, it's really White Wolf's business to attract more customers, rather than that of the princes. WW may be able to get the princes to help out in that task, because the princes want more people to play with, or love the game for its own sake, but it's WW's job to develop its market. Just like it's George Lucas's job to get people to go see the new Star Wars movie, even if there are also Star Wars fans who might volunteer to talk people into seeing it. Josh fanatical

curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) wrote in message news:<20020316141714...@mb-ca.aol.com>... > halc...@aol.com writes: > > >At which point someone should have handled her a pile of cards to >make her > feel better! > > She didn't want cards, she wanted Wakes. I've never known > anybody who'd freely give away Wakes (or Blood Doll, Minion > Tap, Taste, or 2nd/5th Tradition). I bought 5 boxes of Jyhad when I started playing the game, and have more than enough wakes. Most of the other players around here do as well. But to be sure, I'm not giving away 2nds and 5ths; those are power "rare"s. > I'm sure there exist people who've bought dozens of boxes to > get particular rares and would be willing to give away Wakes. > But, really, there aren't many. You'd be surprised, there are a fair number.

smci...@onesourcecorp.com writes: >I bought 5 boxes of Jyhad when I started playing the game, and have >more than enough wakes. 5 boxes -> 18 wakes -> 3-4 decks; geez, I play that many most nights! How can that possibly be enough? [ quoted text not captured ]