LSJ: Visit from Capuchin, Erosion, Ghouls of Plaza Moreria questions

It looks to me like, if you play a Wake with Evening's Freshness while being Visited by the Capuchin, you will have to discard a card after playing the Wake. Is that correct? (because VftC says to remove a counter when you play or discard a card - so you remove a counter when playing the Wake - and then the Wake counts against your hand size while you're not replacing it. So your hand size is down two, one for the lost counter, one for the Wake, and you've only taken one card out of your hand so far.) Erosion: There's a clarification (or ruling) saying that it resets the "base strength" (so I think we played it wrong last night), but I want to check on that: does "base strength" mean that Miller Delmardigan, Eroded, has a strength of 1 (becomes 0 instead of 1 for being a vampire, gets +1 for his card text)? And 3 with an Art of Pain on him (+1 for card text, +2 for Art of Pain)? If so, why? Doesn't "most recently applied effect" generally win? Or is that a metarule from a different game that I'm thinking of? Does Draba (or Veiled Sight) reduce only the acting minion's "base" stealth to 0? (mind you, it totally screwed my Painfully Artistic Miller deck to get Erosioned, so I'm probably happy to see it work the other way...) Ghouls of Plaza Moreria: Is the gaining-a-counter effect depending on the removing-a-blood effect? If they try to remove a blood from someone with 1 blood who Forced Awakenings and fails to block, I believe the blood is burned for failing before the action resolves; does that then mean that the Ghouls don't gain a counter? thanks, Josh clueless prince of washington dc

duff...@bls.gov (Joshua Duffin) wrote: >It looks to me like, if you play a Wake with Evening's >Freshness while being Visited by the Capuchin, you will >have to discard a card after playing the Wake. Is that >correct? > >(because VftC says to remove a counter when you play or >discard a card - so you remove a counter when playing the >Wake - and then the Wake counts against your hand size >while you're not replacing it. So your hand size is down >two, one for the lost counter, one for the Wake, and you've >only taken one card out of your hand so far.) Right. >Erosion: There's a clarification (or ruling) saying that >it resets the "base strength" (so I think we played it >wrong last night), but I want to check on that: does "base >strength" mean that Miller Delmardigan, Eroded, has a >strength of 1 (becomes 0 instead of 1 for being a vampire, >gets +1 for his card text)? And 3 with an Art of Pain on >him (+1 for card text, +2 for Art of Pain)? Yes. >If so, why? Doesn't "most recently applied effect" generally >win? Or is that a metarule from a different game that I'm >thinking of? Does Draba (or Veiled Sight) reduce only the >acting minion's "base" stealth to 0? The difference between modifiers and resetting-base means that there's no "most recent" to consider here, since the two effects are not at odds. Similarly, if Miller plays Torn Signpost at superior, he'll have a strength of 3+1 = 4. Draba and Veiled Sight reduce the minion's current stealth, as indicated by the text that follows the reduction. >(mind you, it totally screwed my Painfully Artistic Miller >deck to get Erosioned, so I'm probably happy to see it work >the other way...) > >Ghouls of Plaza Moreria: Is the gaining-a-counter effect >depending on the removing-a-blood effect? If they try to No. Similar to superior Cryptic Mission. "Burn blood" effects don't require the "target" blood to be there. The action to burn Container counters does need to have the container counters, however. It may be time to revisit burning blood and possibly bring it up to the "must have a target" level (with everything else). >remove a blood from someone with 1 blood who Forced Awakenings >and fails to block, I believe the blood is burned for failing >before the action resolves; does that then mean that the >Ghouls don't gain a counter? No. And this would still be the case even if the "must have target" rule applied - the target was available when the card was played. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

vte...@white-wolf.com (LSJ) wrote in message news:<9hi7k5$a45$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>... > duff...@bls.gov (Joshua Duffin) wrote: > >It looks to me like, if you play a Wake with Evening's > >Freshness while being Visited by the Capuchin, you will > >have to discard a card after playing the Wake. Is that > >correct? > > > >(because VftC says to remove a counter when you play or > >discard a card - so you remove a counter when playing the > >Wake - and then the Wake counts against your hand size > >while you're not replacing it. So your hand size is down > >two, one for the lost counter, one for the Wake, and you've > >only taken one card out of your hand so far.) > > Right. Does wake actually count against your hand size? I just assumed that you could not replace it until your next turn. But that if you played 2 wakes, you could then tap fragment of the book of Nod to draw those 2 cards back.(similar to a referendum, where you do not replace cards, but if you happen to draw up some extras they aren't immediatly discarded?) Or should fragment be assumed to be an exception....as it does explicitly state that you: discard down to your "maximum hand size" Which should be 7. Example: I have 5 cards in my hand(having played 2 wake with evenings freshness) I tap my fragment of the book of nod, draw 2...I have 7 cards. I discard down to my maximum hand size, which is 7 so I discard nothing. 1. Seven library cards represent your hand(2.3) 2. Relevant to section 1.6.1.2 stating that "...immediately draw another from your library to replace it. Exceptions to this rule are cards played during a referendum and as noted on card text." and "If your hand size is changed by a card in play, immediately discard down to or draw up to your new hand size." 3. Wake states: "Do not replace until your next untap phase." I would not say that card text of 'don't replace' does not change your hand size. I would assume the card would read, "your hand size is one less until your next uptap phase" and that the "do not replace" is only an effect on the "immediately draw another from your library to replace it" Hmm..what happens if you have the visit from the capuchin in play, and you play distraction? Assuming you have 2 counters on it. You play distraction which says you replace it(but you played a card) so do you not have to replace it...well that would contradict card text on distraction...uhm, you replace it and take off a counter and then discard and then draw 5 cards?(bringing your total up to 13) Or do you just draw them all up(14) then discard back to 7? It will only be a difference of a card, but could matter, I guess? Strange timeing effects. Aaron

>>Ghouls of Plaza Moreria: Is the gaining-a-counter effect >>depending on the removing-a-blood effect? If they try to > >No. Similar to superior Cryptic Mission. >"Burn blood" effects don't require the "target" blood to be there. > >The action to burn Container counters does need to have the container >counters, however. > >It may be time to revisit burning blood and possibly bring it up to >the "must have a target" level (with everything else). > Is there a difference between "remove blood" and "burn blood?" I don't know about this whole "revisit burning blood and possibly bring it up to the 'must have a target' level." Does that mean you can't cause a burn blood effect if the opponent doesn't have enough blood? Wouldn't that mean you couldn't play a Blood to Water if your opponent only has 2 blood? Halcyan 2

Aaron wrote: > > vte...@white-wolf.com (LSJ) wrote in message news:<9hi7k5$a45$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>... > > duff...@bls.gov (Joshua Duffin) wrote: > > >It looks to me like, if you play a Wake with Evening's > > >Freshness while being Visited by the Capuchin, you will > > >have to discard a card after playing the Wake. Is that > > >correct? > > > > > >(because VftC says to remove a counter when you play or > > >discard a card - so you remove a counter when playing the > > >Wake - and then the Wake counts against your hand size > > >while you're not replacing it. So your hand size is down > > >two, one for the lost counter, one for the Wake, and you've > > >only taken one card out of your hand so far.) > > > > Right. > > Does wake actually count against your hand size? I just assumed that Yes. Online rulings: Library/Hand/Ash Heap The cards that you are currently not replacing count against your hand size. [LSJ 19980803] > you could not replace it until your next turn. But that if you played > 2 wakes, you could then tap fragment of the book of Nod to draw those > 2 cards back. You'd then have to discard two, since the two Wakes are counting against your hand size. > (similar to a referendum, where you do not replace cards, > but if you happen to draw up some extras they aren't immediatly > discarded?) > Or should fragment be assumed to be an exception....as it does > explicitly state that you: discard down to your "maximum hand size" > Which should be 7. > Example: > I have 5 cards in my hand(having played 2 wake with evenings > freshness) I tap my fragment of the book of nod, draw 2...I have 7 > cards. I discard down to my maximum hand size, which is 7 so I > discard nothing. You discard two, since the two pending-replace wakes give you -2 hand size. > Hmm..what happens if you have the visit from the capuchin in play, and > you play distraction? Assuming you have 2 counters on it. > You play distraction which says you replace it(but you played a card) > so do you not have to replace it...well that would contradict card > text on distraction...uhm, you replace it and take off a counter and The "Replace this card" is just a reminder (and it occurs before the action resolution, as well). It's there to avoid confusion with how many cards you draw. If you're at your hand size already, you do not draw to replace. > then discard and then draw 5 cards?(bringing your total up to 13) > Or do you just draw them all up(14) then discard back to 7? > It will only be a difference of a card, but could matter, I guess? You play Distraction and remove a counter. Now you're at hand size so you don't draw a replacement. Then, if the action succeeds, you draw five cards and then discard five (without touching Capuchin). [ quoted text not captured ]

Halcyan 2 wrote: > > >>Ghouls of Plaza Moreria: Is the gaining-a-counter effect > >>depending on the removing-a-blood effect? If they try to > > > >No. Similar to superior Cryptic Mission. > >"Burn blood" effects don't require the "target" blood to be there. > > > >The action to burn Container counters does need to have the container > >counters, however. > > > >It may be time to revisit burning blood and possibly bring it up to > >the "must have a target" level (with everything else). > > > > Is there a difference between "remove blood" and "burn blood?" No. > I don't know about this whole "revisit burning blood and possibly bring it up > to the 'must have a target' level." Does that mean you can't cause a burn blood > effect if the opponent doesn't have enough blood? Wouldn't that mean you > couldn't play a Blood to Water if your opponent only has 2 blood? That's why it's an RT thing and not somethig for an off-the-cuff change. [ quoted text not captured ]