Fake Fortitude card...no discipline

I was browsing Deja News and found a rather old article from PDB (circa Oct/Nov 1995), and instead of doing the sensible thing and checking the rest of the thread, thought I'd pester everyone by re-asking the question he brought up... [snip part about Nossie decks rocking with the exception of vs. Gangrel 1point aggro rush] >Speaking of which, why aren't there more no discipline/don't draw ( >generic ) cards that mimic more disciplines? POT is almost entirely >duplicated by no discipline cards: Lucky Blow, Presses, Arson. DOM is >covered by Compu Hack, PRE gets coppied by various vote helpers, CEL is >sort of covered by manuvers, presses and dodge, and so on and so forth. A >fortitude rip off would be very useful for generic damage resistance, as >would a generic additional strike ( only one and, again, don't draw acard. ) So...anyone have feelings on this? It makes some sense, and although there's no plans in the works for expansions, it'd be neat to see realized... Xian

In article <6hnmr7$p...@epx.cis.umn.edu>, [ quoted text not captured ] These disciplineless cards represent things that anyone can do. They are "do not replace" cards because it is harder to do them that it is when you have the appropriate skill. Soaking damage, however, is not possible without certain discplines (notably fortitude). Similarly, there are no discplineless "do not replace" versions of Claws or Wolf Companion or Blur or Theft of Vitae and so on. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

> > I was browsing Deja News and found a rather old article from PDB (circa > > Oct/Nov 1995), and instead of doing the sensible thing and checking the rest > > of the thread, thought I'd pester everyone by re-asking the question he > > brought up... > > > > [snip part about Nossie decks rocking with the exception of vs. Gangrel > > 1point aggro rush] > > > > >Speaking of which, why aren't there more no discipline/don't draw ( > > >generic ) cards that mimic more disciplines? POT is almost entirely > > >duplicated by no discipline cards: Lucky Blow, Presses, Arson. DOM is > > >covered by Compu Hack, PRE gets coppied by various vote helpers, CEL is > > >sort of covered by manuvers, presses and dodge, and so on and so forth. A > > >fortitude rip off would be very useful for generic damage resistance, as > > >would a generic additional strike ( only one and, again, don't draw > > acard. ) > > > > So...anyone have feelings on this? It makes some sense, and although > > there's no plans in the works for expansions, it'd be neat to see > > realized... > > These disciplineless cards represent things that anyone can do. They > are "do not replace" cards because it is harder to do them that it is > when you have the appropriate skill. > > Soaking damage, however, is not possible without certain discplines > (notably fortitude). > Well, anyone can soak damage with a simple endurance roll. But Fortitude simply gives bonuses to that. The same as Potence gives bonuses to your strength roll for damage. By that logic, a "Tough Skin" card or whatever would seem logical. However, in practice, such a card would be horribly overpowered. I'm not sure exactly why, but my gut feeling is that it would be nasty, and I think most people agree. Use a Flak Jacket. > Similarly, there are no discplineless "do not replace" versions of Claws > or Wolf Companion or Blur or Theft of Vitae and so on. > But a normal person could become friends with an animal... >;) Just playing devil's advocate a little. -Chris ...The misuse of punctuation was a harbinger of increasing Nazi power in pre-WWII Germany... [ quoted text not captured ]

Xian wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] > Xian The fortitude equivalents are Flack Jacket and Leather Jacket. We mere mortals who lack supernatural powers must rely on equipment. There should definitely some cards supporting mortals normal healing power. Additional strikes seem to me to be a facet of a supernatural power, because NO HUMAN can ever be as fast as a Vampire with Celerity. What there definitely should be is a Hospital Master card. Perhaps this one: ------- Hospital Master (non-unique) Cost: 1 pool Every ally which has less life than when he came into play may gain 1 life from the blood bank during your untap phase. If he does so, tap this ally. An Ally can only gain 1 life during untap this way. -------- or this one: --------- Medic's help Action Cost: generic (that is: no pool, no blood, no discipline or clan need) Choose an ally. Only usable if this ally has less life than when he came into play. This ally gains 1 life. Can be used by the ally him- or herself. ---------- Michael Beer

LSJ wrote: "Soaking damage, however, is not possible without certain discplines (notably fortitude)." Aw cummon...where's your vision? Side Slip isn't soaking damage, it's being really fast and "avoiding" damage. Why not something like: Convenient Table Top costs 1 blood, no discipline Prevent one damage. No more than one Convinient Table Top may be used per combat. Picture of one guy cowering behind an upturned table and another guy punching through it. That would be completely balanced, cost appropriate, and concieveably makes "game world" sense. Not to say that the enviornment desperately needs it (as it would make the Gangrel even softer...), but it would be kinda cool... "Similarly, there are no discplineless "do not replace" versions of Claws or Wolf Companion or Blur or Theft of Vitae and so on" Ghoul Retainer is pretty much identical to Wolf Companion (just more expensive), if not actually better, and he is disciplineless... For the most part though, yeah, but those would be _real_ difficult to explain with game world logic as being no discipline. Side Slip, however, supports the idea that damage prevention could be accomplished with something other than Fortitude. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "They mostly come at night. Mostly." -Newt

pd...@aol.com (PDB6) writes: > > Convenient Table Top > > costs 1 blood, no discipline > > Prevent one damage. No more than one Convinient Table Top may be used per > combat. > > Picture of one guy cowering behind an upturned table and another guy punching > through it. Another idea would be: Feint No cost, no discipline. Do not replace until after combat. Prevent one damage. Your strike is cancelled. Cannot be used if you have first strike, unless the opposing minion also has first strike (that last bit is mainly to avoid interpretation problems, but it's also somewhat meaningless to feint if you're fast enough to hit first - except that Dodge beats First Strike in Jyhad...) -- Philippe Duchon (duc...@labri.u-bordeaux.fr)

PDB6 wrote: > Convenient Table Top > > costs 1 blood, no discipline ^^^^^^ > > Prevent one damage. No more than one Convinient Table Top may be used > per > combat. Peter, You mean costs one pool right? Otherwise, it would just be useful for agg damage. Or am I missing a deep meaning somewhere? Thanks, Rob Grau

> The fortitude equivalents are Flack Jacket and Leather Jacket. We >mere mortals who lack supernatural powers must rely on equipment. There >should definitely some cards supporting mortals normal healing power. In the RPG, fortitude just acts like extra stamina, except that it can be used to soak aggro damage as well. So a tough vamp or mortal could easily be better at soaking damage than a wimpy one with fortitude. I think a disciplineless damage prevention card is perfectly reasonable in game terms, if not necessarily a good idea for balance. The thing about mortals healing is that it takes a long time. If a vamp spends a blood point, he can accomplish in seconds what natural healing could take months to do. While I'm not sure of the timescale in V:tES, it makes sense to ignore mortal healing because of this. If you take the view that each action takes weeks or something like that, it's unreasonable that vamps collect blood so slowly by hunting, so slowing down mortal healing by a similar factor would still render it negligible. >Additional strikes seem to me to be a facet of a supernatural power, >because NO HUMAN can ever be as fast as a Vampire with Celerity. Actually... In the RPG you get one level of celerity temporarily if you drink the blood of someone on amphetamines... or something like that. Don't have the player's guide handy. But you can definitely get low-level celerity without having the discipline. So a disciplineless additional strike, maybe only for kindred, is not out of the question. Much more of a stretch than the damage prevention tho. Another idea is that you could get additional strikes just for having more people. As it is, an entire street gang takes one collective punch at the vamp, or close enough. Hard to implement, tho, and it wouldn't really contribute anything to the game. -Dave

Robert F. Grau wrote: "Peter, You mean costs one pool right? Otherwise, it would just be useful for agg damage. Or am I missing a deep meaning somewhere?" No, I meant blood, to make the card appropriately costed. I could have gone with just a "Don't draw up until the end of combat" instead, but that didn't seem costly enough for an ability as potentially useful as disciplinless damage prevention. The card I suggested (just as an example) isn't amazingly useful, but it is good for stoping 1 point aggro hits and for taking less damage from your opponent to avoid getting your fangs pulled or your arms ripped off. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <3540f38a....@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, gaus...@uiuc.edu says... >>Additional strikes seem to me to be a facet of a supernatural power, >>because NO HUMAN can ever be as fast as a Vampire with Celerity. > >Actually... In the RPG you get one level of celerity temporarily if >you drink the blood of someone on amphetamines... or something like >that. Don't have the player's guide handy. But you can definitely >get low-level celerity without having the discipline. So a >disciplineless additional strike, maybe only for kindred, is not out >of the question. Much more of a stretch than the damage prevention >tho. There is something very similar in Jyhad, and it's called Vial of Garou Blood. You also get a point of potence in the deal! Not a bad card, when you have need of it. It works well with a Malk-Antimalk deck. >Another idea is that you could get additional strikes just for having >more people. As it is, an entire street gang takes one collective >punch at the vamp, or close enough. Hard to implement, tho, and it >wouldn't really contribute anything to the game. Especially since only very rarely do combats happen between a vamp and a gang or group of minions. We could always make such a card, but it would be wallpaper unless we made allies (brujah allies, mostly) easier to put in one's deck. Beware those who would make combat cards for the Garou in the game. I know they can destroy anything the vamps throw at them, but this ain't Rage, it's Jyhad. Bleu