The scenario for my thoughts is based on:
A) I've finished the translation of the update for tournment rules in
italian (For LSJ: they are at the same link of the previous version,
so you don't have to update it)
B) I've held a 13 player limited tournment last sunday (4 july 04) for
my birthday :)
C) After that tournment I was wondering if I can use the "sideboard"
(and obviously *ONLY* the sideboard, *NOT* the deck swapping) option
for a future limited event with less than 12 players.
I think that the wording of section 3.1.5 desn't permit it because
I've to choose to permit or not to use the multi deck option "in toto"
with all its implications.
SO A QUESTION WILL RAISE!
From the rules:
<<section 3.1.5 Multi-Deck System
Players are prohibited from making modifications to their decks
between rounds unless the tournament uses the following multi-deck
rules. The multi-deck system can be used at any tournament with fewer
than 12 players (i.e., fewer than three tables). Organizers choosing
to use this system must announce its use in advance of the tournament
date. Players may choose to bring any number of tournament-legal decks
to the tournament and/or extra cards to exchange with cards in their
decks (also known as a sideboard in some games). Between rounds,
players may freely switch decks (or cards in their decks). A
tournament begun with the multi-deck system cannot admit more players
between rounds if doing so would create a round with 12 or more
players.>>
How if I want to run a limited tournment with less than 12 players
with the sideboard option only? It's possible? It's legal?
As per the actual rules that tournment can't be legally done (I
think).
So I'm wondering if in the next rules update the section 3.1.5 will
make differences between the use of
"sideboard" and "deck swapping"
so you can choose to permit only "sideboard" and not deck swapping and
maybe add the option
"Restricted sideboard"
for limited tournemts.
3.1.5.1 Restricted Sideboard
In limited tournments with less than 12 players, partecipants may
choose to use extra cards among those obtained by the limited
procedure to exchange with cards in their decks between rounds of
play. Organizers choosing to use this system ("Restricted Sideboard")
must announce its use in advance of the tournament date. A tournament
begun with the Restricted Sideboard system cannot admit more players
between rounds if doing so would create a round with 12 or more
players.
Anther problem for section 3.1.5:
The size of the sideboard can be "unlimited" so you can have access to
all the cards you have at hand.
How do you think of limiting it to a fixed number of cards or
permitting organizers to choose a limit for it?
bye!
RavATwoFaces
(Do you remember I'm a malkavian, isn't it?)
RavATwoFaces wrote:
>
> How if I want to run a limited tournment with less than 12 players
> with the sideboard option only? It's possible? It's legal?
Ehm, in a limited tournament, people get their cards at the tournament.
And as far as I know, you can use all the cards you get to build your
deck, and if you wish to make changes, you can still use all those
cards. So if you had like 1 starter and 2 boosters of Jyhad (90 library
cards) and you play with a deck of 65 (Michigan), you still have 25
cards to choose from if your deck appears to suck in the first game.
I don't see how you'd want to allow people to bring a sideboard to a
limited tournament, it would severely undermine the idea behind the
sealed product event.
I can however imagine you'd give every player a set amount of specific
cards, like everyone gets 2 wakes and a blood doll, so there's some base
for every deck to do okay. It saves the tournament from being won by the
only guy with a blood doll...
//Doc.
--
"Wees jezelf, er zijn al zoveel anderen" - Loesje
begin Your_MS_program_incorrectly_interprets_this_as_an_attachment.txt
"RavATwoFaces" <RavATw...@vampirethemasquerade.com> wrote in message
news:1701e7a4.04070...@posting.google.com...
> C) After that tournment I was wondering if I can use the "sideboard"
> (and obviously *ONLY* the sideboard, *NOT* the deck swapping) option
> for a future limited event with less than 12 players.
> I think that the wording of section 3.1.5 desn't permit it because
> I've to choose to permit or not to use the multi deck option "in toto"
> with all its implications.
>
You can do whatever you want with a non-sanctioned tournament.
Given that sanctioned tourneys are supposed to be all about the same (in
order to compare results across regions), and that the tournament scene for
VTES is still relatively small, they should have few variantions.
There really is no 'sideboard' rule within 3.1.5, since there is never any
mention of restricting the number of cards that can be brought for
Multi-deck. A 'sideboard' rule would be an entirely new addition to the
tournament rules.
As I see it The multi-deck system does two things; 1)Gives smaller
tournaments more relevance to standings by giving players an opportunity to
adjust their decks to the metagame 2) makes the tournament more enjoyable,
since even if you see the same opponent multiple times, you may not
necessarily see them playing the same deck. Similarly compelling
justifications (which aren't fulfilled with the current multi-deck option)
would have to be shown for me to be convinced that a sideboarding rule is
wise or warranted.
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
"RavATwoFaces" <RavATw...@vampirethemasquerade.com> wrote in message
news:1701e7a4.04070...@posting.google.com...
> B) I've held a 13 player limited tournment last sunday (4 july 04) for
> my birthday :)
Happy birthday!
> C) After that tournment I was wondering if I can use the "sideboard"
> (and obviously *ONLY* the sideboard, *NOT* the deck swapping) option
> for a future limited event with less than 12 players.
> I think that the wording of section 3.1.5 desn't permit it because
> I've to choose to permit or not to use the multi deck option "in toto"
> with all its implications.
I think you're right. There is nothing called a "sideboard" in VTES
tournaments.
I don't think a "sideboard but not complete deck swap" option would
really be a good idea for constructed tournaments. I do think the idea
you put forward of "sideboard any of your drafted cards" for limited
events might be cool, though.
> so you can choose to permit only "sideboard" and not deck swapping and
> maybe add the option
>
> "Restricted sideboard"
>
> for limited tournemts.
>
> 3.1.5.1 Restricted Sideboard
> In limited tournments with less than 12 players, partecipants may
> choose to use extra cards among those obtained by the limited
> procedure to exchange with cards in their decks between rounds of
> play. Organizers choosing to use this system ("Restricted Sideboard")
> must announce its use in advance of the tournament date. A tournament
> begun with the Restricted Sideboard system cannot admit more players
> between rounds if doing so would create a round with 12 or more
> players.
This does sound like it could be worth trying. Probably the main
practical benefit would be letting players "fix" their draft-deck
construction if they realized after the first game that they had made
poor choices in card selection, but still, interesting.
> Anther problem for section 3.1.5:
> The size of the sideboard can be "unlimited" so you can have access to
> all the cards you have at hand.
> How do you think of limiting it to a fixed number of cards or
> permitting organizers to choose a limit for it?
I think this has probably already been considered and rejected by the
VEKN, on the grounds that a limited-size "sideboard" isn't a very
meaningful concept for a tournament that isn't played in multi-game
matches. That is, the only time you would know what you wanted to swap
in and out of your deck (as opposed to playing a whole other deck for
the sake of variety) is if you have seen your opponents' decks in
earlier rounds. Giving that advantage to some people but not others
(since probably not everyone will have had the same ability to look at
what other people were playing) doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
The "multi-deck" rule sidesteps this problem by letting every player
play a completely different deck every game, so there's (in theory) no
way to predict which of your decks (or which sideboard cards) would
specifically help you in this particular upcoming game.
Josh
not a malkavian, just a mortal
;-)
RavATwoFaces wrote:
> The scenario for my thoughts is based on:
>
> A) I've finished the translation of the update for tournment rules in
> italian (For LSJ: they are at the same link of the previous version,
> so you don't have to update it)
Thanks for that (and for alowing me to avoid work :-)
> B) I've held a 13 player limited tournment last sunday (4 july 04) for
> my birthday :)
Happy Birthday.
> C) After that tournment I was wondering if I can use the "sideboard"
> (and obviously *ONLY* the sideboard, *NOT* the deck swapping) option
> for a future limited event with less than 12 players.
No, but the option you described isn't any different from the actual
rules - If someone drafts 80 library cards and 24 crypt cards, she
could in fact field two wholly different decks from her "limited"
cards.
If the draft supply is only a total of, say, 66 cards (i.e., you guys
a gluttons for long, painful games :-), then no player will be able
to field two completely different decks, so every deck change will
look something like "sideboarding". But that's OK.
Allowing each player to sideboard from all of the drafted cards
that aren't in his or her deck is fine. That is, when choosing a
new deck between rounds, the player is free to use all of the cards
she drafted at the start, just like when building the deck used in
the first round.
What you can't do is set some arbitrary limit on the number of cards
that can be exchanged in a deck between rounds. Drafting 100 cards and then
allowing a "sideboard" of 10 cards, for example, isn't legal.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:5lzHc.76524$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> RavATwoFaces wrote:> > C) After that tournment I was wondering if I can use the "sideboard"
> > (and obviously *ONLY* the sideboard, *NOT* the deck swapping) option
> > for a future limited event with less than 12 players.
>
> No, but the option you described isn't any different from the actual
> rules - If someone drafts 80 library cards and 24 crypt cards, she
> could in fact field two wholly different decks from her "limited"
> cards.
This does make sense. But could it be clarified in the tournament
rules? As written, I would have thought the "can use a different deck"
rule could only feasibly apply to constructed tournaments, since for
limited tournaments, bringing extra decks or cards (as the rule
describes) would kind of eliminate the limited nature of the event.
Having it spelled out that multi-deck can also be used in limited
events, with each player's limited card-pool being what's available for
swapping, would be (IMO) a good idea.
Josh
draft is the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems
Joshua Duffin wrote:
> This does make sense. But could it be clarified in the tournament
> rules?
It is.
"Players may use only the actual cards they receive or draft at a Limited
tournament, and any additional cards specifically provided by the
tournament organizer." [VEKN 7.2.3]
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:JxzHc.76553$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > This does make sense. But could it be clarified in the tournament
> > rules?
>
> It is.
> "Players may use only the actual cards they receive or draft at a Limited
> tournament, and any additional cards specifically provided by the
> tournament organizer." [VEKN 7.2.3]
>
I think that Josh's point was that 3.1.5 was worded in such a manner (the
'bring extra cards to exchange with cards in their decks') that it seemed to
apply only to constructed tourneys. I agree, and would support having
something explicit to limited tournaments make it into that section writeup
in a future revision. Thanks!
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
David Zopf wrote:
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:JxzHc.76553$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>>Joshua Duffin wrote:
>>>>>This does make sense. But could it be clarified in the tournament
>>>rules?>>
>>It is.
>>"Players may use only the actual cards they receive or draft at a Limited
>>tournament, and any additional cards specifically provided by the
>>tournament organizer." [VEKN 7.2.3]
>>>
> I think that Josh's point was that 3.1.5 was worded in such a manner (the
> 'bring extra cards to exchange with cards in their decks') that it seemed to
> apply only to constructed tourneys.
Ehm, it is.
In Limited, you do not bring extra cards to exchange, you get them from
the organisation.
No further explicitness is required to allow for the use of all cards
provided in the limited tournament, since it's already explicitly noted
in 7.2.3, like LSJ just noted.
Bringing external cards to a Limited would seriously harm the
limitedness, don't you think?
[ quoted text not captured ]
My point is:
for the future can be added a section to permit during a *SANCTIONED*
limited event to swap cards between the current deck and the other
cards received during the limited event mantaining it legal?
i.e.
for 7.3.1. Deck Construction rule
players (may) <<record on a decklist every card they intend to play.>>
How if I want to permit the players to swap cards in the deck with
cards they have received in the event but are not in the decklist?
The event will became not-sanctioned ('cause it use non-standard
rules).
*BUT* if I've an added rule that permits the use of those other cards
to modify the deck between rounds (if there are less than 12 players)
I can permit the modification of the deck and be sur e that the event
is still sanctioned.
Bye!
RavATwoFaces
RavATwoFaces wrote:
> My point is:
> for the future can be added a section to permit during a *SANCTIONED*
> limited event to swap cards between the current deck and the other
> cards received during the limited event mantaining it legal?
>
> i.e.
> for 7.3.1. Deck Construction rule
> players (may) <<record on a decklist every card they intend to play.>>
> How if I want to permit the players to swap cards in the deck with
> cards they have received in the event but are not in the decklist?
You can have the players record the entire list of sealed product they
received, not what they intend to play. AFAIK from the VEKN rules, that
is in fact customary if you register the decks at a limited event.
7.2.2. Limited Deck Registration
The head judge or tournament organizer may require players to record on
a decklist every card they receive in a Limited tournament. Once the
cards are registered, players have a limited amount of time to prepare
their decks before play begins. The V:EKN recommends that organizers
check a reasonable number of decks against their decklists each round.
You using the 7.3.1 option of registering the decks they created as well
means you choose to limit the tournament to something it is otherwise
not limited to, unless you choose so.
So basically, what you want is already in the rules, but since there is
also an option to do otherwise you think you are obliged to take that
option?
[ quoted text not captured ]
"The Doctor" <D...@freemail.nl> wrote in message
news:40EF0483...@freemail.nl...
> David Zopf wrote:
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> > news:JxzHc.76553$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> >>Joshua Duffin wrote:
> >>
> >>>This does make sense. But could it be clarified in the tournament
> >>>rules?
> >>
> >>It is.
> >>"Players may use only the actual cards they receive or draft at a
Limited
> >>tournament, and any additional cards specifically provided by the
> >>tournament organizer." [VEKN 7.2.3]
> >>
> >
> > I think that Josh's point was that 3.1.5 was worded in such a manner
(the
> > 'bring extra cards to exchange with cards in their decks') that it
seemed to
> > apply only to constructed tourneys.
>
> Ehm, it is.
>
> In Limited, you do not bring extra cards to exchange, you get them from
> the organisation.
>
> No further explicitness is required to allow for the use of all cards
> provided in the limited tournament, since it's already explicitly noted
> in 7.2.3, like LSJ just noted.
>
> Bringing external cards to a Limited would seriously harm the
> limitedness, don't you think?
>
Nice editing... You've got to read what you've snipped. I'm not suggesting
any such change. I'm supporting Josh's suggestion that the tournament rules
would read better if it were made explicit in 3.1.5 that, when applied to
limited formats, it is understood that the whole of the limited card pool
may be used, with deck changes made between rounds... and possibly a
revision which mentions that the 'extra cards' (those from your collection)
are NOT allowed in limited play as a result of this rule. It is mentioned
once in 7.2.3, but making it explicitly clear how multi-deck applies to
limited formats (like what is done in 3.1.5 for constructed tourneys) is a
valuable change to consider...
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
"David Zopf" <david...@snet.net> wrote in message news:<kkAIc.3319$m%7....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>...
> It is mentioned
> once in 7.2.3, but making it explicitly clear how multi-deck applies to
> limited formats (like what is done in 3.1.5 for constructed tourneys) is a
> valuable change to consider...
>
> DaveZ
> Atom Weaver
Thanks for understanding me Dave!
In fact this is my point of view.
RavATwoFaces