Essential Cards...

Hello, I have recently taken a poll of the newsgroup to see which cards they considered to be useless. I am now asking the opposite question. What cards exist in Jyhad and VtES that you would _always_ put in a non degenerate deck? I have a short list: Wake with Evenings Freshness Blood Doll Short Term Investment KRCG Radio Inbase Discoteque Ian Forestal (Just kidding) Thanks for your time, Jim -- Jim Freeman P: mam...@tiac.net W: jfre...@darwin.bu.edu Programmer/Analyst at Bio-Molecular Engineering Center at BU Etiam unum capillum umbram suam habet. http://www.tiac.net/users/mammon/index.html

Jim, The only truly essential ( or at least universally valuable ) card that will be great in every deck is Sudden Reversal. No deck should be without one. Or four. ;-) Good luck with the poll. Doug Dunaway (Artistically Inept Torreador)

Never say always.. But.. The no-discipline combat cards - Dodge and Open Grate (Press:End Combat) being the most universally useful, perhaps. -j

On 22 Aug 1996, DOUGDWISE wrote: > The only truly essential ( or at least universally valuable ) card that > will be great in every deck is Sudden Reversal. No deck should be without > one. Or four. ;-) Or 8 ;) @ The Corrupter - Adrian Lee Sullivan @ GAT/CS/WS R+++* r(+)>++ # Gamer Coffee-Addict Scripter Author # C(+++)$ USX+$ N++ e+* @#$ Comments ? sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu $#@ tv(+)> X++ b++(+++) @#$ <http://cslab.uwlax.edu/~sulli_al/jyhad> $#@ PS+&-+ PE&-&++ z*+?

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, James Freeman wrote: > What cards exist in Jyhad and VtES that you would _always_ put in a non > degenerate deck? None. Some cards are very useful in certain contexts that aren't always useful in other decks. I do, however, have cards that go in _most_ decks: Wake with Evening's Freshness (which I don't include in some aggressive bleed/vote decks) Blood Doll (which I don't include in decks where both my pool and vampire blood levels are likely to be strained) That's about it. > I have a short list: > Wake with Evenings Freshness > Blood Doll > Short Term Investment Nice card. I use other blood gainers if they are more appropriate (Blood Puppy/Powerbase as lures, Blood Doll for less Master Intensity, Protracted for more master intensity less card space, etc. > KRCG Radio Some of my decks just would have this be a _huge_ waste. > Inbase Discoteque As KRCG (in fact, far worse. I only have this in 1 deck) > Ian Forestal (Just kidding) :) LOL [ quoted text not captured ]

James Freeman <jfre...@darwin.bu.edu>n >What cards exist in Jyhad and VtES that you would _always_ put in a non >degenerate deck? Really, there's nothing I would *always* put in a deck. But every deck I make has the following unless there's a very good reason: 4 Wakes 6 Blood Dolls and/or Minion Tap, depending on vampire size 1 Sports Bike 1 44 Magnum 1 appropriate Hunting Ground Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

> On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, James Freeman wrote: > > > What cards exist in Jyhad and VtES that you would _always_ put in a > > non degenerate deck? Giant's Blood -- only 1 (for obvious reasons) Minion Tap -- it's always a good idea to bring more vamps in hunting ground (for an appropriate clan) -- usually 2 to increase chances of drawing it early, and just in case it gets destroyed somehow -- David Kent -aka- Constant Hazard \----------------------/ \ haz...@potomac.net / \------------------/

>James Freeman <jfre...@darwin.bu.edu>n > >>What cards exist in Jyhad and VtES that you would _always_ put in a non >>degenerate deck? I always put in a Sudden Reversal. I usually put in Blood Dolls and Information Highways. If I'm not playing rush combat, I put in Wakes. But that's it. -- Tom Doehne doe...@cse.ogi.edu

>I have recently taken a poll of the newsgroup to see which cards they >considered to be useless. I am now asking the opposite question. > >What cards exist in Jyhad and VtES that you would _always_ put in a non >degenerate deck? > I use following cards in my every deck. Wake Blood Doll Sudden Reversal Info Highway Archon Investigation Hunting Ground

In article <321BA1...@darwin.bu.edu>, James Freeman <jfre...@darwin.bu.edu> wrote: > What cards exist in Jyhad and VtES that you would _always_ put in a non > degenerate deck? > > I have a short list: > > Wake with Evenings Freshness > Blood Doll > Short Term Investment > KRCG Radio > Inbase Discoteque > Ian Forestal (Just kidding) Do you see that much of a difference between Short Term Investment and Protracted Investment that you would consider STI "essential" and PI "wallpaper"? Eric deRuiter sXe

>Do you see that much of a difference between Short Term Investment and >Protracted Investment that you would consider STI "essential" and PI >"wallpaper"? Yes. And the answer is very simple. With STI, you pay one pool, and in three rounds you transfer three pool back. That's a two-for-one trade, taking three master phases to cycle back. PI costs three pool, for a return of six. That's a one-for-one trade, and takes three rounds just to cover the playing cost. Add it up yourself. I've heard PI justified in a deck with few masters. At least, in this case, the six master phases you use to cycle back the pool may not have been used anyway.. >shrug< -j

Would you be of the opinion then that both PI and SI could be dropped for something like a "Midterm Investment" 2pool -> Return 4? The only other think I can think of as good about a PI is if you have an extra Master Phase (thanks to Anson, etc..) to pull off 2 blood a turn. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Does anyone out there use Effective Management? That's a stape in almost > all of my decks. It is not an overall essential. Yes, it is used in weenie decks but dont put this in a combat deck with medium and large capacity vampires.

: In article <321BA1...@darwin.bu.edu>, James Freeman : <jfre...@darwin.bu.edu> wrote: : : > What cards exist in Jyhad and VtES that you would _always_ put in a non : > degenerate deck? Does anyone out there use Effective Management? That's a stape in almost all of my decks. Viel Gluck!

In article <4vpcuq$s...@tron.sci.fi>, Marko Saari <gu...@sci.fi> wrote: > >>I have recently taken a poll of the newsgroup to see which cards they >>considered to be useless. I am now asking the opposite question. >> >>What cards exist in Jyhad and VtES that you would _always_ put in a non >>degenerate deck? Pretty much every deck I make has these: 2 Blood Doll 1 Hunting Ground per clan in crypt (usually 1 or 2, rarely 3 or more) 2 Master: Skill cards per Discipline used (usually 3 or less) So, a Toreador Tap/Bleed deck, for example, would have 2 Blood Dolls, Society HG, 3 Master: Skill Presence, 2 Auspex, 1 Celerity (modified from 2/2/2 in this particular deck because it's presence heavy and celerity light). After playing the above deck last night, I took out the 3 Wakes I put in against my better judgement -- no use for them in an intercept-free, combat-shy deck. A Gangrel Army of Rats/Intercept+Runaway Combat would have 2Dolls+ ZooHG+2Ani/2For/2Pro, just for comparison's sake, or, depending on mix, SlumHG for the occasional Nossie in the crypt. Cheers, gomi -- 'spend a day and a half dead and the lettuce runs amok.' -babs woods

eri...@fast.net (Eric deRuiter) writes: >Do you see that much of a difference between Short Term Investment and >Protracted Investment that you would consider STI "essential" and PI >"wallpaper"? Yes, and many people on this group share the opinion. Protracted is only useful in extreme decks (decks that have limited card slots to "waste" on master cards and/or decks that are designed to produce multiple Master Phase Actions all the time). The cost (and corresponding delay in recoupment) is prohibitive in a standard deck. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | > Be careful who you correct. http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | That should read "Be careful whom Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | you correct." -- Steffan O'Sullivan

In article <3225CB...@izzy.net>, ber...@izzy.net says... > >Would you be of the opinion then that both PI and SI could be dropped >for something like a "Midterm Investment" 2pool -> Return 4? > The only other think I can think of as good about a PI is if you have >an extra Master Phase (thanks to Anson, etc..) to pull off 2 blood a >turn. The problem with this suggestion... Is that it would suck compared to Short Term Investment. Look at the math: Short Term is one pool for a payback of three and a profit of two; whereas the Midterm would be two pool for a payback of four and a profit of two. It takes a master phase longer to break even, and there's no way in hell that I(or anyone else in their right mind who had access to better cards) would play with it. Now, if one could take two pool off of the card each master phase, it might be worth it, but that leads to speed-pool gain degeneracy in NL. Sigh. Alec Chang

In article <504c0q$7...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu says... > >eri...@fast.net (Eric deRuiter) writes: > >>Do you see that much of a difference between Short Term Investment and >>Protracted Investment that you would consider STI "essential" and PI >>"wallpaper"? > >Yes, and many people on this group share the opinion. > >Protracted is only useful in extreme decks (decks that have limited >card slots to "waste" on master cards and/or decks that are designed >to produce multiple Master Phase Actions all the time). > >The cost (and corresponding delay in recoupment) is prohibitive in >a standard deck. Indeed. Generally, the only decks that I have seen use PI are extremely reactive decks with relatively few masters. Their Reactive nature makes the payoff time on Protracted seem to mean nothing to them(i.e. they sit around, intercept, do nothing, and bore us to tears), and they often have other ways of gaining pool as well. The pool they spend on the Protracted is often back in a few turns, and then the gain every master phase (along with the multiple blood dolls and hunting grounds) becomes irritating. Then again, most decks which I use never play with either of the investments. It seems to be a matter of personal taste and the amount of masters in the deck. I almost never have master phases to spare, so Investments go by the wayside. Blood doll, however, seems almost required in most of my decks. Alec Chang

The Corrupter wrote: > > On 22 Aug 1996, DOUGDWISE wrote: > > > The only truly essential ( or at least universally valuable ) card that > > will be great in every deck is Sudden Reversal. No deck should be without > > one. Or four. ;-) > > Or 8 ;) > Well, I've got 6 cards I use in all my decks: 1 KGC (hell, getting it out in early rounds helps alot vs. weenies) 1 Inf. HWay (sounds strange to me that this card isn't being discussed here---is it banned or what?) 4 Sudden Reversals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (no comment on that) Jan Reszat "Damned sun! Argh!!!!", last words of Marc St.Clair, Tremere, when he forgot to set his watch for Daylight Savings Time.