rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Massassi's Honor Question

11 messages from 5 participants · 07 August 2007 – 12 October 2009
original thread on Google Groups

gre...@gmail.com

>From reading another post it seems clear that if an Osebo plays Massassi's Honor (MH) while taking an action that requires a card (e.g. Flurry of Action) and continues as if unblocked (using Form of Mist for example) the selected Osebo still gets to perform the action. What happens if the action is one that puts a card on the acting Osebo (e.g. Enforcer, weapons) does the first Osebo get it and the MH burns or does the MH get it and the first action fizzle? Massassi's Honor Type: Action Modifier Requires: Osebo Only usable when this Osebo is blocked (play before combat, if any). Choose a ready untapped Osebo you control who could take that action, put this card in play, and move any other cards this Osebo played this action from your ash heap to this card. After this action, the chosen Osebo must attempt the same action (with the same target, if any). He or she may play cards from this card as if from your hand. Burn this card at the end of that action or if the action is not possible.

CthuluKitty

On Aug 7, 1:06 pm, gre...@gmail.com wrote: > >From reading another post it seems clear that if an Osebo plays > Massassi's Honor (MH) while taking an action that requires a card > (e.g. Flurry of Action) and continues as if unblocked (using Form of > Mist for example) the selected Osebo still gets to perform the action. > What happens if the action is one that puts a card on the acting Osebo > (e.g. Enforcer, weapons) does the first Osebo get it and the MH burns > or does the MH get it and the first action fizzle? The first action would succeed, as per the normal rules of the game. Of that I'm fairly sure. I *think* that the second action (granted by MH) would fizzle upon resolution since the card it's looking for is already in play on another vampire. I'm unclear however on what might happen if you could someone burn that card before taking your next action. For example, you might have equipped with Blood Tears and immediately burned it for 2 blood, or you could have played Enforcer and then accidentally burned yourself with Daring the Dawn. In those cases, it seems like the MH action should go off normally, but I'm just not sure. Luckily, none of this should ever matter. One other question for LSJ though: do cards played by the acting Osebo after MH go to it? It seems that they should, since otherwise the card doesn't do much of anything, but I'm finding the text somewhat unclear.

gpett...@gmail.com

On Aug 7, 1:06 pm, gre...@gmail.com wrote: > >From reading another post it seems clear that if an Osebo plays > > Massassi's Honor (MH) while taking an action that requires a card > (e.g. Flurry of Action) and continues as if unblocked (using Form of > Mist for example) the selected Osebo still gets to perform the action. > What happens if the action is one that puts a card on the acting Osebo > (e.g. Enforcer, weapons) does the first Osebo get it and the MH burns > or does the MH get it and the first action fizzle? > Using Enforcer: 1. The first Osebo gets it placed on them (card text Enforcer). 2. The second Osebo must attempt an Enforcer action (card text MH). 3. If you have an Enforcer in your hand, the second Osebo must attempt it (card text MH). If you choose not to play it, they become stuck until the Enforcer is gone from your hand (making the action impossible) or you leave the Minion Phase (making the action impossible). Burn the MH at that time (card text MH). The second Osebo would then be unstuck. 4. If you do not have an Enforcer in your hand, the MH burns because the action is impossible (card text MH). > Massassi's Honor > Type: Action Modifier > Requires: Osebo > Only usable when this Osebo is blocked (play before combat, if any). > Choose a ready untapped Osebo you control who could take that action, > put this card in play, and move any other cards this Osebo played this > action from your ash heap to this card. After this action, the chosen > Osebo must attempt the same action (with the same target, if any). He > or she may play cards from this card as if from your hand. Burn this > card at the end of that action or if the action is not possible. -- - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew

LSJ

CthuluKitty wrote: > On Aug 7, 1:06 pm, gre...@gmail.com wrote: >> >From reading another post it seems clear that if an Osebo plays >> Massassi's Honor (MH) while taking an action that requires a card >> (e.g. Flurry of Action) and continues as if unblocked (using Form of >> Mist for example) the selected Osebo still gets to perform the action. >> What happens if the action is one that puts a card on the acting Osebo >> (e.g. Enforcer, weapons) does the first Osebo get it and the MH burns >> or does the MH get it and the first action fizzle? > > The first action would succeed, as per the normal rules of the game. > Of that I'm fairly sure. Well, perhaps. But it's not a clear cut case (it requires a ruling here, not just a clarification). The issue is whether the action to put the action card in play (equipment, Army of Rats, Seeds of Corruption, &c.) can only put the card in play from limbo (the staging area for action cards between announcement and resolution), or if it puts it in play from anywhere. For Form of Mist (and other "continue as if unblocked" effects) to work, either retrieving from the ash heap at action resolution must be ruled possible or the "continue as if unblocked" effects must be ruled to move the card from the ash heap back to limbo as an inherent part of the "as if unblocked" effect). The first ruling would be a precedent-setter that could be used for allowing the action to work from other places as well (e.g., retrieving the card from Massassi's Honor upon the continuance's successful resolution). The latter ruling not so much. But. There is already a ruling that says you can't move put-me-in-play action cards by mere action continuance. That ruling came up for Swarm vs. Form of Mist. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/118fa71fcbe54a7f So it seems the course here is already set (new ruling): "continue as if unblocked" inherently moves the action card from the ash heap (where it went when the action was blocked) to limbo (where it should be if the action is not blocked). If the action card is not in the ash heap, then the action cannot be continued (as per the earlier Swarm ruling). That would apply to cards removed from the game upon being blocked, as well (like Reinforcements). > I *think* that the second action (granted by > MH) would fizzle upon resolution since the card it's looking for is > already in play on another vampire. Well, with the ruling above, the continuance is thwarted, so the card remains on Massassi's Honor, and the second action is performed as usual. > I'm unclear however on what might > happen if you could someone burn that card before taking your next > action. For example, you might have equipped with Blood Tears and > immediately burned it for 2 blood, or you could have played Enforcer > and then accidentally burned yourself with Daring the Dawn. In those > cases, it seems like the MH action should go off normally, but I'm > just not sure. Luckily, none of this should ever matter. If some effect has removed the action card from Massassi's Honor before the chosen Osebo could begin that second action, then that chosen Osebo would be unable to attempt the action (lacking the card required to being the action), so Massassi's Honor would simply be burned by its own card text with no additional action at all (rather than a fizzled one). > One other question for LSJ though: do cards played by the acting Osebo > after MH go to it? It seems that they should, since otherwise the card > doesn't do much of anything, but I'm finding the text somewhat unclear. No. It only collects the cards played during the action prior to the MH. It doesn't collect itself, nor any cards the acting minion plays after MH.

gpett...@gmail.com

On Aug 8, 9:57 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > For Form of Mist (and other "continue as if unblocked" effects) to work, either > retrieving from the ash heap at action resolution must be ruled possible or the > "continue as if unblocked" effects must be ruled to move the card from the ash > heap back to limbo as an inherent part of the "as if unblocked" effect). > Is there a particular reason why the Action Card doesn't simply stay in Limbo until the action is over? [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ

[ quoted text not captured ] Rules text. [6.2.3] http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec6_2_3

Meej

On Aug 8, 10:15 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Not to be pedantic, but the rules text looks like it needs to be revised there anyway - there's no mention of what becomes of the action card if the action is successful! (Not that there needs to be for clarity of play, since that's not something that's confused, but for completeness' sake it ought to be there.) Does the action card on a successful action go to the ash heap just *before* resolution, or just *after*? (In other words, during a combat resulting from a successful Bum's Rush, is the Bum's Rush itself in the ash heap, or in Limbo?) Not that I can think of a case where this point matters at present, but it did make me curious... and it might have some bearing on Gregory's question, at least in terms of shedding light on the rules text. - D.J.

LSJ

Meej wrote: > On Aug 8, 10:15 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> gpettig...@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Aug 8, 9:57 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >>>> For Form of Mist (and other "continue as if unblocked" effects) to work, either >>>> retrieving from the ash heap at action resolution must be ruled possible or the >>>> "continue as if unblocked" effects must be ruled to move the card from the ash >>>> heap back to limbo as an inherent part of the "as if unblocked" effect). >>> Is there a particular reason why the Action Card doesn't simply stay >>> in Limbo until the action is over? >> Rules text. [6.2.3] >> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec6_2_3 > > Not to be pedantic, but the rules text looks like it needs to be > revised there > anyway - there's no mention of what becomes of the action card if the > action > is successful! (Not that there needs to be for clarity of play, since > that's not > something that's confused, but for completeness' sake it ought to be > there.) Perhaps. It would likely be put in 6.1.6, and the like, however, since "what becomes of the action card" depends on the action. > Does the action card on a successful action go to the ash heap just > *before* > resolution, or just *after*? (In other words, during a combat Before. > resulting from a > successful Bum's Rush, is the Bum's Rush itself in the ash heap, or in > Limbo?) Ash heap. [ quoted text not captured ]

Meej

On Aug 8, 10:55 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Perhaps. It would likely be put in 6.1.6, and the like, however, since "what > becomes of the action card" depends on the action. (smacks head) Of course it does. But a cross-reference here might help, too, since this is the "how to resolve an action" section. > > Does the action card on a successful action go to the ash heap just > > *before* > > resolution, or just *after*? (In other words, during a combat > > Before. Cool; much clearer to me, and at least in both cases it's in the ash heap before you get to the effects of resolution or block. Thanks for clearing that curiosity up. Any particular reason why then, rather than at the total end of the action, other than "that's how it's written so far"? It seems that if, in both cases, the card went to its final destination at the very end of the action, it'd clear up a lot of messy interactions when an action's continued after blocking or whatever. Maybe not important enough to warrant a change, of course... - D.J.

LSJ

Meej wrote: > On Aug 8, 10:55 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > >> Perhaps. It would likely be put in 6.1.6, and the like, however, since "what >> becomes of the action card" depends on the action. > > (smacks head) Of course it does. But a cross-reference here might > help, too, since this is the "how to resolve an action" section. > >>> Does the action card on a successful action go to the ash heap just >>> *before* >>> resolution, or just *after*? (In other words, during a combat >> Before. > > Cool; much clearer to me, and at least in both cases it's in the ash > heap before you get to the effects of resolution or block. Thanks for > clearing that curiosity up. > > Any particular reason why then, rather than at the total end of the > action, other than "that's how it's written so far"? Not that I know of, except perhaps intuition, at least in the case of blocked actions. > It seems that > if, in both cases, the card went to its final destination at the very > end of the action, it'd clear up a lot of messy interactions when an > action's continued after blocking or whatever. Maybe not important > enough to warrant a change, of course... Sure. Also, Echoes of Harmonies assumes the current order. And Gift of Bellona references the current order.

LSJ

LSJ wrote: > Meej wrote: >> Not to be pedantic, but the rules text looks like it needs to be revised there >> anyway - there's no mention of what becomes of the action card if the action >> is successful! (Not that there needs to be for clarity of play, since that's not >> something that's confused, but for completeness' sake it ought to be there.) > > Perhaps. It would likely be put in 6.1.6, and the like, however, since "what > becomes of the action card" depends on the action. > >> Does the action card on a successful action go to the ash heap just >> *before* >> resolution, or just *after*? (In other words, during a combat > > Before. Oops. After. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a0cae22d49ab2be3 >> resulting from a >> successful Bum's Rush, is the Bum's Rush itself in the ash heap, or in >> Limbo?) > > Ash heap. So: Limbo.