I' d like to know if first strike acts before any other normal strike,
so it can cancel the effect of a Stike: Combat End card.
For example, if one of my Assamite enters combat with a Toreador, and
he plays a Silence of Death (superior level) and a Taste of Death, can
the Toreador plays a Majesty and avoid going to torpor?
Thanx
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:28:29 GMT, francoi...@my-deja.com wrote:
>I' d like to know if first strike acts before any other normal strike,
>so it can cancel the effect of a Stike: Combat End card.
It cannot. Dodge cancels the opposing minion's initial strike, even
if it were used with First Strike. And S:CE resolves before any other
effects during strike resolution.
>For example, if one of my Assamite enters combat with a Toreador, and
>he plays a Silence of Death (superior level) and a Taste of Death, can
>the Toreador plays a Majesty and avoid going to torpor?
First, by card text, your Taste of Death strike is simply a normal
strike, not with First Strike. (Silence of Death only applies to hand
and melee weapon strikes.)
Second, yes, the Majesty resolves first during strike resolution, and
combat ends immediately. Your strike does not resolve.
-- Derek
Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta
francoi...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I' d like to know if first strike acts before any other normal strike,
> so it can cancel the effect of a Stike: Combat End card.
According to the rules, Strike: Combat Ends will "beat" a First Strike,
and a Strike: Dodge will still allow the dodger to avoid the effects of
the First Strike.
> For example, if one of my Assamite enters combat with a Toreador, and
> he plays a Silence of Death (superior level) and a Taste of Death, can
> the Toreador plays a Majesty and avoid going to torpor?
Yes. Note that in your example, the Assamite's strike is just a "normal"
Taste of Death. Silence of Death gives First Strike to only "hand and
melee weapon" strikes. Taste of Death is neither a hand strike nor a
melee weapon strike. (But, even if the Assamite had blocked the
Toreador and played Backstab, the Majesty would still end the combat
before the Taste of Death with First Strike could resolve.)
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
The current ruling sucks quite badly. First strike is at the moment wall
decor. I think it needs to be able to beat dodge even if not S:CE to bring
it down from the wall.
Would make Cel better rather than a complementary discipline, then again the
game needs some of those.
Not sure.
Rob T
<francoi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8o5ho0$5fp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> I' d like to know if first strike acts before any other normal strike,
> so it can cancel the effect of a Stike: Combat End card.> For example, if one of my Assamite enters combat with a Toreador, and
> he plays a Silence of Death (superior level) and a Taste of Death, can
> the Toreador plays a Majesty and avoid going to torpor?> Thanx
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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ELDB Dave <eldb...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In fact, if anyone out there has used this kind of house-rule [First
> Strikes beat Dodge], could you let us know how it went?
My old group (haven't started playing again since moving) played where
First Strikes beat Dodge and Strike: Combat Ends.
We didn't use equipment much, as it was very susceptible to being
destroyed. As to Celerity combat, it honestly made very little
difference. There just aren't enough worthy Celerity-based First
Strike cards.
The only real impact that I saw it have was when we'd loaned just about
all of the group's Backstab cards and the like to one player who liked
the Assamites. We played a lot of combat decks with damage prevention,
so unless you could do unpreventable damage that would get rid of a
minion before they could hit you back, it didn't do you much good.
Luckily for him, Assamites could/can do that quite well.
I can't say what the effect would have been if we'd have played more
S:CE decks. I would think there'd be more of an impact in that case,
as opposed to the combat environment that we played in. Perhaps if
there were more of those types of Celerity-based First Strike cards
there would have been a more noticable difference. Perhaps if we
didn't use as much damage prevention. Hell, perhaps if the Tremere had
Celerity. I'm realizing I haven't been much help. Geh.
p.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Thanx for all. I think that my Assamites will never win (sigh)!
In article <8o6f10$r94$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
"Rob Treasure" <Rob.Tr...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> The current ruling sucks quite badly. First strike is at the moment
wall
> decor. I think it needs to be able to beat dodge even if not S:CE to
bring
> it down from the wall.
>
> Would make Cel better rather than a complementary discipline, then
again the
> game needs some of those.
>
> Not sure.
>
> Rob T
>> <francoi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8o5ho0$5fp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > I' d like to know if first strike acts before any other normal
strike,
> > so it can cancel the effect of a Stike: Combat End card.
> > For example, if one of my Assamite enters combat with a Toreador,
and
> > he plays a Silence of Death (superior level) and a Taste of Death,
can
> > the Toreador plays a Majesty and avoid going to torpor?
> > Thanx
> >
> >> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
>> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.166 / Virus Database: 79 - Release Date: 20/06/00
>
>[ quoted text not captured ]
On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 21:12:27 GMT, ELDB Dave <eldb...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
>I am curious...have you done any playtesting where First Strikes beat
>Dodge? If so, I would love to hear how that affected
>(Celerity-based) combat in general.
>>In fact, if anyone out there has used this kind of house-rule, could you>let us know how it went?
We have used this house-rule for a very long time (first strike beats
the dodge but not S:CE) and all that I can say is that it gives a
chance to the assamites. Yes, there`s some combos that can be made
with other clans with cards like Backstab and Canine Horde, but the
major difference is for the assamites ; it makes them useful in
combat... : )
And I still think that the first stike should beat a dodge. But, you
know, for the sake of the game sometimes we must give up a little
thing or two...
Remy Auclair, VEKN prince of Quebec city
ra...@videotron.ca
http://pages.infinit.net/rafid/
In article <8o75d1$372$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
francoi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Thanx for all. I think that my Assamites will never win (sigh)!
>
Why????
S:CE it's unbeatable.
Assamites: Forget about First Strike. Put 7-8 Psyches, 8 flashes,
Quietus strikes; bum rushes, contracts and haven's, that wonderful
locations that give you intercept (specially that for assamites), some
computer hackings, and you'll win.
I don't think that the ruling is wrong 3 nice cardas can beat s:ce and
dodge.
Inmortal grapples, thoughts betrayed and psyche!
and some not very useful:
hidden lurke, fast reaction.
My deck Brujah with thoughts betrayed and psyches is feared by all my
friends.
Combat decks and solution tom S:CE.
Brujah: Inmortal grapples, thoughts betrayed, psyche.
Assamite. Psyche (lots)
Gangrel: Dogs (very rare)-scorpion sting. difficult combo, but...
many gangrel have potence, so try inmortal grapples you only
need them in inferior. so try inmortal grapple, claws, some potence
strike and fortittud. SCARY!!!!!
Giovanni and La Sombra. Thoughts betrayed.
Tzimice. Difficult combo. Eagle sight-fast reaction-lots of intercept
cards and wakes.
Nosferatu. Inmortal grapple.
Toreador (don't do a combat deck, it's a waste of time, you'll need
many combination of cards: vast wealth ot Toreador grand ball to
equip). Psyches (lot's) (nad it is my favorite clan.
Tremere: THEY DON´T FEAR S:CE, FORTITTUD OR OTHER COMBAT CARD:
THOUGHTS BETRAYED-(OTIONALTRAP)-MANUEVER-STEAL BOOL OR BURNING
SOUL (AND EQUIP DOESN´T WORK)-PRESS-EXACTLY SAME COMBO. AND YOU CAN PUT
SOME BLOOD TO WATER AND WALK ON FLAMES.
So. Don't be afraid of S:CE. It's worse forttitud.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8o75d1$372$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
francoi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Thanx for all. I think that my Assamites will never win (sigh)!
>[ quoted text not captured ]
So. Don't be afraid of S:CE. It's worst forttitud.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 02:35:33 GMT, ra...@videotron.ca (Rafid Armani)
wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 21:12:27 GMT, ELDB Dave <eldb...@my-deja.com>
>wrote:>>I am curious...have you done any playtesting where First Strikes beat
>>Dodge? If so, I would love to hear how that affected
>>(Celerity-based) combat in general.
>>>We have used this house-rule for a very long time (first strike beats
>the dodge but not S:CE) and all that I can say is that it gives a
>chance to the assamites. Yes, there`s some combos that can be made
>with other clans with cards like Backstab and Canine Horde, but the
>major difference is for the assamites ; it makes them useful in
>combat... : )
Please don't say this where Todd Banister (Prince of Atlanta and Bitch
of the Assamites) can hear you. We'll have to put up with another
month of Parnassus and Melek. We can even predict which vampire comes
out these days based on how many transfers he has at first. =) =)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8o7ial$h0n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
I've already put 5 psyche, I'll try with more. Hidden Lurker tap too
many vampires.
I'll try with Immortal Grapple too with Akram.
Thanx.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 03:07:51 GMT, theve...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Could you post your assamite deck to the newsgroup? I would like to see
>it. I've never seen an Assamite deck that can win very often. Sometimes
I'll let Todd leap in here. (of course, i'm leaping in a bit myself,
but he's the Assamite around here and has multiple effective decks.)
>they get lucky but if their predator can get +1 stealth with bleed
>modifiers there's not much they can do. sure they can use locations
hm, Sport Bike anyone? and Market Square *is* Assamite-only, so you
run very little risk of it being contested. Arson or Rampage aren't
too much fun against the Assamites.
>7-8 psyches? they're going to run out pretty quickly.
you know, if I play a CEL combat deck (and if I care about stopping
S:CE for that day) i'll put in 8 Psyches, no more. One is usually
sufficient to make a vampire dead. The trick is, hang onto the
Psyches for your first Rush action or the like. Use as necessary
during the first combat of your turn - once your victim is out of
S:CE, in general they're going to STAY out, and all your succeeding
Rush actions don't need any. So you end up OK. The other reason is
that Psyche doesn't buy you anything at all against Fortitude, and
you're as likely to see that as you are S:CE. (it's only good for
getting rid of Superior Mettle, and you can just generate additional
strikes to get around that.)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8o7ial$h0n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
take...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8o75d1$372$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> francoi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Thanx for all. I think that my Assamites will never win (sigh)!
> >
> Why????
> S:CE it's unbeatable.
> Assamites: Forget about First Strike. Put 7-8 Psyches, 8 flashes,
> Quietus strikes; bum rushes, contracts and haven's, that wonderful
> locations that give you intercept (specially that for assamites), some
> computer hackings, and you'll win.
>
Could you post your assamite deck to the newsgroup? I would like to see
it. I've never seen an Assamite deck that can win very often. Sometimes
they get lucky but if their predator can get +1 stealth with bleed
modifiers there's not much they can do. sure they can use locations
that give intercept but you have to tap them. you'd be lucky to have
even three out (Market Square, Rumor mill, KRCG) before someone
contests, arsons or steals one of them.
7-8 psyches? they're going to run out pretty quickly.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <q3ojqsgeieiuflh9l...@4ax.com>,
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 03:07:51 GMT, theve...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> >Could you post your assamite deck to the newsgroup? I would like to
see
> >it. I've never seen an Assamite deck that can win very often.
Sometimes
>> I'll let Todd leap in here. (of course, i'm leaping in a bit myself,
> but he's the Assamite around here and has multiple effective decks.)
>
multiple effective assamite decks? i'd like to see it. if someone posts
one i'll put it together and play it in my group and let you know how
it goes.
> hm, Sport Bike anyone? and Market Square *is* Assamite-only, so you
> run very little risk of it being contested. Arson or Rampage aren't
> too much fun against the Assamites.
yeah sure you can put in sport bikes, intercept locations etc but by
the time you've got that all set up you've been ousted by most decks
with a bit of stealth and a bit of bleed.
> >7-8 psyches? they're going to run out pretty quickly.
>> you know, if I play a CEL combat deck (and if I care about stopping
> S:CE for that day) i'll put in 8 Psyches, no more. One is usually
> sufficient to make a vampire dead. The trick is, hang onto the
> Psyches for your first Rush action or the like. Use as necessary
> during the first combat of your turn - once your victim is out of
> S:CE, in general they're going to STAY out, and all your succeeding
> Rush actions don't need any. So you end up OK. The other reason is
> that Psyche doesn't buy you anything at all against Fortitude, and
> you're as likely to see that as you are S:CE. (it's only good for
> getting rid of Superior Mettle, and you can just generate additional
> strikes to get around that.)
i agree that a dedicated assamite rush deck with psyches, additional
strikes etc. can kill a few vampires but they usually end up using most
of their resources to oust their prey and then they're finished.
when was the last time anyone saw an assamite deck win a tournament?
[ quoted text not captured ]
anthony used to play a stealth bleed assamite deck. laptops and spying
missions and embraces, lots of stealth, with heartblood of the clan for
pool gain. worked quite well in the environment at the time. and then
just when you thought it was all S&B, you go and get a taste of death
up the nose. quite nasty.
_*__salem
_*__http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/5848/
***__salem_...@my-dejanews.com
_*__and the rains came hammering down
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 05:41:14 GMT, theve...@my-deja.com wrote:
>In article <q3ojqsgeieiuflh9l...@4ax.com>,
> Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:>> hm, Sport Bike anyone? and Market Square *is* Assamite-only, so you
>> run very little risk of it being contested. Arson or Rampage aren't
>> too much fun against the Assamites.>
>yeah sure you can put in sport bikes, intercept locations etc but by
>the time you've got that all set up you've been ousted by most decks
>with a bit of stealth and a bit of bleed.
Then put in a bit of Rush as well, and start asking the question "OK,
which vampires over there want to go 'boom' this turn? Any of them
that bleed me can borrow this magic marker and put a bullseye on their
foreheads."
>i agree that a dedicated assamite rush deck with psyches, additional
>strikes etc. can kill a few vampires but they usually end up using most
>of their resources to oust their prey and then they're finished.
More than 'a few'. You can usually vaporize all your predator's vamps
and all your prey's vamps. Your next problem is bleeding out your
vampire-less prey before your grand-predator blows through all three
of you - the usual difficulty with combat decks.
>when was the last time anyone saw an assamite deck win a tournament?
when was the last time anyone saw a CLAN deck win a tournament, for
that matter? now, i know that's not ENTIRELY true since the Ventrue,
Toreador, and Malks tend to come with "built in big bleed", and you
just have to figure out a way to get it past. But thinking of it in
terms of clans isn't going to tip the balance back the other way...
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8ocu1n$5uh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
My short experience with Assamite shows this problems:
1)against non-combat decks, you don't manage to "cripple" your
predator's vamps as quickly as they bleed (S&B decks) or vote
(Political decks) against you. You are generally ousted from the game
before you can create real trouble to your predator.
2)against combat, decks even if you are able do maneveur/dodge/reduce
damage, it's not so unusual loosing as many blood as your enemy,
because you have to pay blood to play combat cards.
To conclude, nearly ALL the Assamite cards cost too much Blood/Pool:
you pay to intercept, to play combat cards (OK, except the Khabar) and
you gain little pool.
Perhaps the most effective tactic is maneveuring to go away and try to
send your opponent to torpor (Oh! I forgot: Assamites don't commite
Diablerie...)
I'd like to see an effective deck too, if possible, but I think that a
Stealth & Bleed Ass. deck with some Taste of Death isn't a
very "narrative" one.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <rgskqskd0stai1i05...@4ax.com>,
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 05:41:14 GMT, theve...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
> More than 'a few'. You can usually vaporize all your predator's vamps
> and all your prey's vamps. Your next problem is bleeding out your
> vampire-less prey before your grand-predator blows through all three
> of you - the usual difficulty with combat decks.
While an Assamite deck can do some damage i am skeptical that any
assamite deck exists that could survive long enough to vaporize all of
it's predator's and prey's vampires more than say once every ten games.
if you have such a deck i would dearly love to see it.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> While an Assamite deck can do some damage i am skeptical that any
> assamite deck exists that could survive long enough to vaporize all of
> it's predator's and prey's vampires more than say once every ten games.
> if you have such a deck i would dearly love to see it.
Calling Mr. Bannister, Mr. Todd Bannister. You are needed to fix a
hoofnmouth, STAT!
Sorrow
---
I keep telling them that I think they're out to get me.
They ask me if I feel remose and I answer, "Why of course!
There's so much more I could have done if they'd let me!"
So it's Rorschach and Prozac and everything is groovy
In article <rgskqskd0stai1i05...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray
<lor...@yahoo.com> writes
>>i agree that a dedicated assamite rush deck with psyches, additional
>>strikes etc. can kill a few vampires but they usually end up using most
>>of their resources to oust their prey and then they're finished.>>More than 'a few'. You can usually vaporize all your predator's vamps
>and all your prey's vamps. Your next problem is bleeding out your
>vampire-less prey before your grand-predator blows through all three
>of you - the usual difficulty with combat decks.
With a lot of rush decks, that's true. Mostly the IG based ones, simply
because they do it most effectively.
The thing is, I tend to find that, let's say I'm playing a fairly
standard potence/celerity combat deck.
I rush your vampire, I go into combat. I play Torn Signpost. I play
flash, if necessary, to keep it at close range. Play IG, blur. 4
cards, 9 damage (POT CEL). You can't Majesty, and you'd have to play a
Skin of Steel type card (i.e. all damage from a strike, not just
"Prevent 1 damage") to get around it.
Now, were I to be playing Assamites, with a QUI CEL vamp, I rush you
(say, with a Contract, maybe). What options do I have? Well, I *can't*
give myself a good, base strike as with Torn Signpost or Fists of Death.
For each of my strikes I have to play a strike card, or strike for
hands. So, we go into combat, and I want to play some of the Assamite
long range strikes. I play Flash, to go to long (or I could use it to
stay at close, as we assumed with the Brujah above). So, for my strike,
I play Taste of Death. That's 1 blood, doing 1 or 2 aggravated damage.
Now, the POT/CEL crowd were doing three, which is out of the range of
Skin of Rock, but this is still in that range - though if it gets
through, it will send me to torpor. Or I could play Blood Sweat.
Again, 1 blood. This time we have the advantage of not going to torpor.
So, we could play, with our Assamites, assuming a good flow of cards and
play, a rush card (maybe Contract), followed by Flash, followed by Blood
Sweat, Blur, Blood Sweat, Taste of Death. Okay, that's 6 cards to do
only 8 damage, though 2 of that is aggravated. The Brujah managed 9
damage with 5 cards. Also, the Assamites just spent 4 blood. The
Brujah deck has maybe taken one or two hand damage, so it comes off
better blood wise. Your smallest QUI CEL is 5 capacity, and then you go
to 7. Your smallest POT CEL is Jimmy Dunn, at 4, followed by Anvil at
6. Abd al Rashid has to spend 4 blood on that combo, and ends up at 1
blood. Okay, you can play Taste of Vitae - but do you play it midway
through to top yourself back up? At the end? Both? Jimmy only ever
goes down 1 from the Blur. Maybe 1 from a Fists of Death. He goes down
to 2, we'll say. Abd goes down to 1. Okay, so Abd is at long range and
is less likely to take hand damage, so they need something to hit you
with. But what if they *do* hit you with something? Jimmy has a bigger
buffer zone, of 2 blood, to play with.
Also, there is the fact that Abd *is* at long range. You *have* to
supply a source of maneuvers. Jimmy may be able to cruise by without a
maneuver, if the other guy can't maneuver. That 5 card combo - rush,
Torn Signpost, flash, IG, blur - becomes only 4 cards if you *can* drop
the Flash out. Only the Gangrel really have the cards to outpace a
maneuver rich deck (Quick Meld is luvverly), I guess, and a lot of decks
don't seem to bother much with them as defensive maneuvers. But you
*do* need a Flash in the Assamite scenario. If we play on exactly the
same terms as the Assamite deck, not having a pro-active way to stop
Majesty, we drop the IG too. 3 cards - rush, Torn, blur - versus 6
cards - rush, flash, BS, blur, BS, ToD.
Then we come to the fact about Majesty. It's played, a lot. You can't
do much about that fact. Hopefully, to my mind, Sabbat War will contain
ways to make it less attractive, whilst still viable, or less of a no-
brainer. But, in the here and now, we don't have it. So they play
Majesty against your first strike.
The Brujah deck goes Rush - (Flash) - IG. They can't play it.
The Assamite deck goes Rush - Flash - Blood Sweat. They play Majesty.
You play Pysche! and have to go again with the Flash.
You've just wasted a strike and a maneuver on Majesty. And if you don't
play them, you can't do half as much damage. The Assamites don't have
the Auspex for Primal Instincts, but you could try Rapid Thought which
is along the same lines (possibly better, here), so it *can* stop me
wasting cards. But I've already played the maneuver to get me in place,
which is unfortunate.
So, we think about scrapping the maneuver. This is a pity, because two
of the nicest Assamite strikes are Blood Sweat and Taste of Death, both
long range only. So we need close range strikes. For my money, only
the Khabar: Honor cuts it, so we need to have played Contract. But
Contract is only on one vampire. Yes, we save a nice lot of blood,
because it's free, but combat decks do occasionally lose vampires - the
political deck throws a Banishment, maybe, or you do find yourself in a
nasty fight with a deck that just has a little edge in combat, that you
didn't expect. The Brujah deck just rushes with another vampire, and
carries on with a Torn Signpost. The Assamite deck needs the Contract
there, so it plays another one on a new vampire. That's a lot of master
phases going for that. The Brujah deck can play Blood Doll, discipline
cards, Minion Tap, a hunting ground, contest the Elysium, maybe even
have a few Sudden Reversals or Direct Interventions in its hand. Haven
Uncovered *can* be played, but its not a necessity. The Assamite deck,
if it wants to play the Khabar: Honor route, has to have sufficient
Contracts on hand in order to be useful, so that it pulls them as and
when you get new vampires, and it gets new vampires to use them. And if
you're playing the standard rush deck tactics, as we were suggesting in
this thread[0], of killing vampires quickly, your Contract is only going
to be useful for one turn. A Brujah deck has played Blood Doll, useful
over multiple turns, or an Elysium, to scupper the other side, maybe.
You're having to play it simply to set up your combat.
So, then we decide that it isn't the *quantity* of damage that matters,
it's the quality. If we do that, we might just try and put something
useful into the first strike. Unlike the Brujah, we can't pile up a
Torn Signpost, an Increased Strength and an Undead Strength into a 7
damage first (not First) strike. We don't have the ability to add to
damage, so we are more scuppered. And even if we do find some nice
strikes - like Taste of Death, say - we still have problems -
maneuvering, blood cost etc. Since Taste of Death does aggravated
damage, they'll go to torpor. But you can't then play Taste of Vitae
for much, since the first point of damage won't do anything other than
send them to torpor. So you'll regain the point lost in playing Taste
of Death, but won't have the ability to get the point you lose to hand
damage, which a Brujah deck generally can, because of doing multiple
damage.
Then, because Taste of Death only does a small amount of damage, they
hit torpor with most of their blood left. Assamites can't throw an
Amaranth, due to the diablerie restriction, so you'd have to have a
weenie, either in the deck or via Embrace. And you're likely to lose it
in the blood hunt since you're never really likely to have more than 3
votes to hand (Thetmes + Edge), and probably less than that.
Okay, this way you end up with more cards to use, since you're not doing
so much in terms of cards per combat, but you can't burn vampires, and
you *still* can't guarantee the hit. :(
One interesting option does seem to be available, which is the
Fame/Catacombs/Humanitas combination. But you still have the problem of
actually torporising them in the first place. When you start adding
more cards for multiple Fames, Catacombs, Humanitas or whatever, you end
up detracting from the combat. And, to my mind, the Assamites lose out
far more badly from detracting from their combat abilities than the
POT/CEL Brujah-type gang do.
I'd love to see the Assamites do well, but I've never really seen it
possible. Any deck that finds combat a problem can have combat defence,
of the type that will ruin an Assamite deck's day, in spades.
[0] I'll mention the other big tactic shortly.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D | ja...@zephyr.org.uk (New e-mail)
"Who'd have ever predicted the moment would come when I find myself grateful
they've kept women dumb? She's an innocent maiden but then so am I, that's why
it's possible I could get by."
> > While an Assamite deck can do some damage i am skeptical that any
> > assamite deck exists that could survive long enough to vaporize all
> > of it's predator's and prey's vampires more than say once every ten
> > games. if you have such a deck i would dearly love to see it.
>> Calling Mr. Bannister, Mr. Todd Bannister. You are needed to fix a
> hoofnmouth, STAT!
I don't know if he got the idea from Todd (via this NG or a
newsletter), but a friend once had an Assamite deck to which he'd added
Thaumaturgy. The deck was quite ruthless, as his Assamites tended to
stay at full capacity and use strikes that did not cause preventable
damage. *And* my friend threw in a couple of Muaziz cards just to get
some easy diablerie going.
The deck wasn't quite tournament legal (too many cards), but it was
very interesting to see in action. Perhaps someone else (Todd?) came
up with a tourney-legal deck that was similar? If so, I wonder if it
was a combat-demon.
p.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8oeqii$cjv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
francoi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8ocu1n$5uh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> theve...@my-deja.com wrote:[ quoted text not captured ]> My short experience with Assamite shows this problems:
>
> 1)against non-combat decks, you don't manage to "cripple" your
> predator's vamps as quickly as they bleed (S&B decks) or vote
> (Political decks) against you. You are generally ousted from the game
> before you can create real trouble to your predator.
>
> 2)against combat, decks even if you are able do maneveur/dodge/reduce
> damage, it's not so unusual loosing as many blood as your enemy,
> because you have to pay blood to play combat cards.
>
> To conclude, nearly ALL the Assamite cards cost too much Blood/Pool:
> you pay to intercept, to play combat cards (OK, except the Khabar) and
> you gain little pool.
>
> Perhaps the most effective tactic is maneveuring to go away and try to
> send your opponent to torpor (Oh! I forgot: Assamites don't commite
> Diablerie...)
>
> I'd like to see an effective deck too, if possible, but I think that
a
> Stealth & Bleed Ass. deck with some Taste of Death isn't a
> very "narrative" one.
>
> >> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Here in KC we play that 1st strike beats dodge and S:CE and it didn't
unbalance the game. Now we play it beats dodge only because of
tournaments and the eratta. So it is easier to convert thinking when
in tournament.
The deck I play with only works @ long range. It is very successful in
most games. If I play 10 games 7 of those 10 games I'm able to cripple
my pred and or prey to where they are useless against me. I don't use
contracts to limited. I use haven's,bum's,ambushes, and C.o.B. to get
into combat. I use Heart blood of the clan to gain blood. equipment is
ir goggles and sport bikes. Plus a couple of locations for intercept.
My major problem is bleed mod's.
I play this deck every weekend against S&B decks and votes it does a
very good job. The only time I have a hard time is if I get a bad draw
on vampires. I used to use Tha. but took up to much space.
I will post it this week when I have time.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Sorry 'bout the delay, just noticed the bat signal above Alamut...
Now that you have my attention, where oh where do I begin....
I guess I'll respond to the guys comment that "when was the last time anyone
saw an assamite deck win a tournament?". Well, I felt like I had a shot to
do some damage at DragonCon here this year. I got 4 VPs in three rounds and
would have ended up with 6VPs and a trip to the finals if Mike Perlman had
not played three Anarch Revolts very late in the game to oust me. 4VPs is
not to bad given that the level of play was extremely high at this tourney.
It CAN be done. Easy? Hell no. How? Well read on...
First off before I get to the deck I played at DragonCon, let me direct you
over to some articles I have written in the past on the Assamites. You
REALLY need to read them. Why? I have found that playing the Assamites (at
least for me and I am very biased) is the most challenging clan there is.
The reason is that you almost never can just play the cards in your deck as
they come up. There is a lot of thinking and head games that you have to
play with other Methuselahs. In order to make them successful, you must
fully understand their weaknesses and how to capitalize on their strengths.
This is no different than fully understanding how to play a dedicated
intercept or rush deck. Anyone can pick up one of these decks and play with
them but until you fully understand them, then you will probably not get the
results you are looking for.
Links to the all of the articles can be found at:
http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra/newsletter.htm
Below is main write-up in the 5th newsletter:
Main Discussion of December: Finding a way to allow combat to gain victory
points
One thing that I continue to notice is that most people playing the
Assamites try to build decks that resemble typical rush combat. Most of
these Methuselahs soon learn that playing a rush style combat deck with the
Assamites generates a lot of destroyed minions around them but rather few
victory points. Why is this?
A successful rush combat deck needs to be deadly in combat while still being
as fast as possible. The Assamites have the first condition easily met with
their combination of celerity and quietus. The second condition is where the
Assamites tend to fall apart. They are simply not fast enough due to them
only having one vampire with the celerity/quietus combination with a
capacity below seven. Over the course of a typical game an Assamite player
averages only a little over three vampires out at any given time. This leads
to the assassins not having enough available rush actions and basic bleeds
for one pool to finish any Methuselah off very quickly. So what can you do?
I have studied most of the Assamite decks that have been posted online and
none of them seem to get around them having insufficient number of actions.
Therefore I believe the key to the Assamites is not to create more actions
but to be as efficient as possible with the actions that they have. It would
be ideal if the Assamites had a way to deal damage to their prey's pool
supply while concentrating on what they do best - combat. Luckily for them
there is a way to do this now without having to wait for the coming
expansion set. The card that makes this possible is Fame.
Fame: Unique Master
Put this card on a ready vampire. If he or she goes into torpor, the
{vampire's controller} burns three pool. Each Methuselah burns one pool
during his or her untap phase if this vampire is in torpor.
The basis of the Fame decks has been around since the Jyhad days but not
until the recent rule changes did it make its way into dedicated combat
decks. Now the famous vampire becomes a target that when hunted down acts
like a bleed for four pool (three for the initial sinking and one during
your prey's untap phase for being in torpor). With just three actions (sink
the famous vampire, rescue and sink again) the Assamites can effectively
bleed for seven pool in a single round and most importantly the pool loss
can not be bounced or reduced. That is impressive for any combat deck.
But what makes Fame work better for the Assamites over the other clans? The
answer comes in the card that defines the essence of the assassins.
Contracts give the Assamites a form of permanent rush combat that is
desperately needed in order to continually punish the hunted vampire. With
just one Contract the famous vampire can no longer quietly escape from harm
due to you not having a single Bum's Rush or Haven Uncovered. Another
advantage that the Assamites have in the Fame style deck is the use if Foul
Blood. If for any reason the famous vampire has to hunt (due to having zero
blood) a well-placed Foul Blood can send the vampire back into torpor and
cost the Methuselah another three pool.
One of the most important things about playing the Fame deck is the
selection of who gets to be hunted. You should take your time in choosing
your victim, as your deck's overall performance will be directly affected by
this decision. I have noticed that in most decks players will include a few
token weenie vampires that help round out their decks. These vampires tend
to show up very early in the game as blockers and such. The token vampires
make good targets due to them being fairly weak and easily sinkable. Another
strategy in choosing the hunted is to find your prey's main vampire that is
blocking other player's actions and make them famous. Selecting the
interceptor will increase your chances of being able to rush into combat via
the Contracts. A third strategy is to pick out your prey's main bleeder and
drop Fame on them. Choosing the heavy bleeder will definitely slow your prey
down because now there are two Methuselahs (you and your grand prey) that
want to see this vampire sent to torpor. This creates a temporary ally in
your grand prey and gives you a chance to oust your prey before he picks up
an additional victory point and six pool. Regardless of the strategy you
choose, the one thing that remains the same with most of the famous vampires
is that they tend to play fairly conservative for the remainder of the game
for fear of being caught. Always keep this in mind and try to use this to
your advantage.
Another aspect to this deck is to consider when is the proper time to play
Fame and rush the vampire. The first thought is to start pounding on your
prey as soon as possible but more times than naught this leads to trouble.
This is because many Methuselahs will slow down or even stop transferring
out additional vampires when they realize what your deck plans to do. This
puts more pressure on your deck to perform and leaves you with even more
pool to burn through for a victory point. About the optimal time to begin
playing Fame and rushing the victim is when your prey transfers down to
around ten to twelve pool. Now your victory point is just a few trips to
torpor away instead of being numerous visits.
Now that you have a grasp on who to make famous and when to rush the last
thing to consider is how do you get them out of torpor so that you can dunk
them again? There are two cards in the game that make this task easier for
the rescuer and they are Humanitas and the Catacombs. Both of the cards give
the rescuer an additional plus one stealth and they burn one less blood if
the action is successful. Both can be stacked on the same vampire to allow
them to rescue the victim at plus two stealth and not have to pay any blood
for the action. One last thing to remember is that when rescuing someone
else's vampire from torpor you do not have to always pay the cost of the
action. Simply announce that you are going to rescue the famous vampire in
torpor and have them pay for your action if it is successful. This is a
fantastic way to keep the hunted low on resources and makes them very
susceptible to a well-aimed Foul Blood.
Description: DragonCon 2000 deck
Created By: Todd Banister
Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 12, Max: 28, Avg: 5.08]
3 Abd al-Rashid (Assamite, 5, CE ob QU)
1 Colin Flynn (Toreador, 3, au ce)
1 Dorian Strack (Toreador, 4, AU ce)
1 Kalinda (Assamite, 6, CE OB th)
1 Kanya Akhtar (Assamite, 2, ce)
4 Parnassus (Assamite, 7, au CE QU th)
1 Zoe (Malkavian, 3, AU ce ob)
Library: (81 cards)
Master (17)
2 Blood Doll
3 Contract
1 Depravity
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
4 Fame
1 Giant's Blood
1 Heidelburg Castle, Germany
1 Humanitas
1 Market Square
1 Quietus
1 Tribute to the Master
Minion (64)
Actions: (10)
2 Bum's Rush
1 Catacombs
1 IR Goggles
1 Ivory Bow
1 J. S. Simmons, Esq.
1 Leather Jacket
1 Mr. Winthrop
1 Palatial Estate
1 Tasha Morgan
Reactions: (13)
2 Enhanced Senses
5 Forced Awakening
2 Foul Blood
1 Spirit's Touch
1 Wake with Evening's Freshness
2 Telepathic Misdirection
Combat: (41)
4 Acrobatics
5 Blood Sweat
2 Blur
6 Flash
4 Lucky Blow
1 Precognition
5 Psyche
5 Pursuit
4 Taste of Death
5 Taste of Vitae
This should at least get you started. I would love to hear from you later
after you have played a few games and how you faired. Need more ideas for
the Assamites? Just ask - I've got lots.
Also, I will try and finish the new newsletter that I have been working on
for a while now. Just been VERY bust with work, VEKN ratings, and other
things...
Until then, pray that Ur-Shulgi does not visit you in your dreams...
Todd Banister
Prince of Atlanta
Scribe of the Assamites
> Please don't say this where Todd Banister (Prince of Atlanta and Bitch
> of the Assamites) can hear you. We'll have to put up with another
> month of Parnassus and Melek. We can even predict which vampire comes
> out these days based on how many transfers he has at first. =) =)
>
> -- Derek
> Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta
Sorry Derek but the recent posts about the Assamites has got me going again.
I am currently working on some new nasties for our group!
What do you mean you can predict which vamp pops out? It could be Melek or
it could be Parnassus. You never know. Man, what a surprise when they pop
out! :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <q3ojqsgeieiuflh9l...@4ax.com>,
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 03:07:51 GMT, theve...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> >Could you post your assamite deck to the newsgroup? I would like to
see
> >it. I've never seen an Assamite deck that can win very often.
Sometimes
>> I'll let Todd leap in here. (of course, i'm leaping in a bit myself,
> but he's the Assamite around here and has multiple effective decks.)
>> >they get lucky but if their predator can get +1 stealth with bleed
> >modifiers there's not much they can do. sure they can use locations
>> hm, Sport Bike anyone? and Market Square *is* Assamite-only, so you
> run very little risk of it being contested. Arson or Rampage aren't
> too much fun against the Assamites.
>> >7-8 psyches? they're going to run out pretty quickly.
>> you know, if I play a CEL combat deck (and if I care about stopping
> S:CE for that day) i'll put in 8 Psyches, no more. One is usually
> sufficient to make a vampire dead. The trick is, hang onto the
> Psyches for your first Rush action or the like. Use as necessary
> during the first combat of your turn - once your victim is out of
> S:CE, in general they're going to STAY out, and all your succeeding
> Rush actions don't need any. So you end up OK. The other reason is
> that Psyche doesn't buy you anything at all against Fortitude, and
> you're as likely to see that as you are S:CE. (it's only good for
> getting rid of Superior Mettle, and you can just generate additional
> strikes to get around that.)
>
I agree, you don´t need more than those psyches, and for defense, try
the locations, vehicle and retainer than gives you intercept, besides,
first of all rush the most dangerous minion of your predator, overall
the ones who have deflections or telepatic misdirection. Then when you
feel safe enough with the locations and with your sufficient minions
rush and bleed your prey with the hackings.
You must be patient, it isn't an easy deck.
Dr, José María Segura Izquierdo
Primogen of Mexico City
[ quoted text not captured ]
My deck Bujah: Combat ends, that works in the past...
Crypt:
Jimmy Dunn. 2
Volker. 2
Anvil. 2
Constanza Vinti. 2
Dónal O'Connor. 3
Don Cruez 1
Masters:
Dominate. 4
Minion Tap. 2
Tomb of Ramses III. 2
Archon Investigation. 1
Warzone Hunting Ground. 1
Minion Cards.
Political Actions:
Anathema. 2
Brujah Justicar. 1
Actions:
Bum Rush. 7
Rampage. 1
The Fifth Tradition. 3
Govern the Unaligned. 2
Combat Cards.
Thoughts Betrayed. 5
Flash. 6
Sideslips. 4
Taste of Vitae. 3
Disarm. 2
Thrown Sewer Lid. 4
Torn signpost. 5
Blur. 6
Psyche. 2
Burning Wrath. 2
Reactions:
Deflections. 6
Second Tradition. 6
It can win, and also it's very fun to play with.
Enjoy it.
Dr. José María Segura Izquierdo.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> I guess I'll respond to the guys comment that "when was the last time
anyone
> saw an assamite deck win a tournament?". Well, I felt like I had a
shot to
> do some damage at DragonCon here this year. I got 4 VPs in three
rounds and
> would have ended up with 6VPs and a trip to the finals if Mike
Perlman had
> not played three Anarch Revolts very late in the game to oust me.
That was me.
I think most of us would have done better at tournaments had our
predator not ousted us etc.
I have found that playing the Assamites (at
> least for me and I am very biased) is the most challenging clan there
is.
I think we both agree that playing the assamites is very challenging
although i would put them at number two behind the !Gangrel.
Most of
> these Methuselahs soon learn that playing a rush style combat deck
with the
> Assamites generates a lot of destroyed minions around them but rather
few
> victory points.
Agreed.
>
> A successful rush combat deck needs to be deadly in combat while
still being
> as fast as possible. The Assamites have the first condition easily
met with
> their combination of celerity and quietus.
I wouldn't have said quite so easily - see James Coupe's posting in
this thread (he put it much better than i ever could)
[ quoted text not captured ]
Using Fame with the assamites is a nice idea however it is a bit of a
one trick pony deck. i'm sure if it came off it would be beautiful but
there are so many ways to shut this deck down - fortitude, S:CE, +1
intercept (another vampire could simply block the contractor), sudden
reversal (what if the fame doesn't go down - what then?). you talk of
rescuing the vampire from torpor which is expensive (quietus cards are
already expensive) and i know you have the hum/cat combo going but
you've only got one of each and even if you do manage to get them both
down on one vamp what if that vamps gets vaporized? you suggested that
your prey would pay for it's famed vamp to be rescued from torpor?
mmm...i'm trying to think why they might do that.
So again i state my original point that the assamites do not have the
variety of vamps nor does quietus have the flexibility to be able to
make a consistently effective assamite deck.
i said i'd give someone's deck a go though and i will. i'll let you
know how things turn out. i'm quite looking forward to the first time i
taste of death a famous vamp...
[ quoted text not captured ]
> Using Fame with the assamites is a nice idea however it is a bit of a
> one trick pony deck. i'm sure if it came off it would be beautiful but
> there are so many ways to shut this deck down - fortitude, S:CE, +1
> intercept (another vampire could simply block the contractor), sudden
> reversal (what if the fame doesn't go down - what then?).
Every deck will have something out there to stop it - that's just the beauty
of the game. But lets look at your examples: Fortitude does nothing against
Blood Sweats and Foul Bloods. S:CE? That's what the Psyche's are for. If
someone blocks me rushing with the Contract? Hmmm... it becomes a free Bum's
Rush and I sink a vamp. No big deal, I'll just get to the famous vamp a
little later. Sudden Reversal? Part of the beauty of the deck is how fast I
move through my deck. Lots of ways to get into combat and lots of cards
being played. If my first Fame gets suddened? So what, that's why there is
more than one. A big key to this deck is that it is very flexible.
you talk of
> rescuing the vampire from torpor which is expensive (quietus cards are
> already expensive) and i know you have the hum/cat combo going but
> you've only got one of each and even if you do manage to get them both
> down on one vamp what if that vamps gets vaporized? you suggested that
> your prey would pay for it's famed vamp to be rescued from torpor?
> mmm...i'm trying to think why they might do that.
I am not sure you realize one of the subtle keys to the deck. Once you
figure out what type of combat style (offense/defense) your prey is playing,
then you will know how to sink their vamps. If they are not using Fortitude
then I will concentrate on using the Agg damage thus sending the famous vamp
to torpor WITH BLOOD. That way when one of my vamps goes to rescue (with or
without Humanitas/Catacombs) I force the torporized vamp to pay for the
rescue. All it cost me is an action and NO BLOOD. If they are using
Fortitude then chances are I will have to drop the vamp to zero blood via th
e Blood Sweats to dunk them. Then the rescues will cost anywhere from 0 to 2
blood depending on the cards I have on my vamps. I'll trade 2 blood for
another shot at a bleed of 3 or 4 when the famous vamp is now out of torpor
and out of blood.
So far the biggest problem I have had with this deck is when my prey
diablerizes his own famous minion just to get rid of him. Is it sooo bad
that my prey eats his Anson with Fame? I think not. Esp. since I can now
drop another Fame on one of his other vamps. :)
>
> So again I state my original point that the assamites do not have the> variety of vamps nor does quietus have the flexibility to be able to
> make a consistently effective assamite deck.
While I will agree that the Assamites really need some more vamps I
completely disagree that Quietus does not have the flexibility to make a
consistently effective Assamite deck. Your opinion versus mine. No harm
done. All I can do is speak from previous experience. I've been playing
Assamites every week for something like the past year to year and a half and
my group has seen it all. The Assamites can hold their own if played
correctly.
> i said i'd give someone's deck a go though and i will. i'll let you
> know how things turn out. i'm quite looking forward to the first time i
> taste of death a famous vamp...
Please do. Do not get frustrated if the deck does not seem to work the first
time you try it. There is a learning curve with it. There are a lot of
options within this deck and once you master how to use them - I guarantee
you will have a lot of fun.
Take care,
[ quoted text not captured ]
> Every deck will have something out there to stop it - that's just the
beauty
> of the game. But lets look at your examples: Fortitude does nothing
against
> Blood Sweats and Foul Bloods. S:CE? That's what the Psyche's are for.
If
> someone blocks me rushing with the Contract? Hmmm... it becomes a
free Bum's
> Rush and I sink a vamp. No big deal, I'll just get to the famous vamp
a
> little later. Sudden Reversal? Part of the beauty of the deck is how
fast I
> move through my deck. Lots of ways to get into combat and lots of
cards
> being played. If my first Fame gets suddened? So what, that's why
there is
> more than one. A big key to this deck is that it is very flexible.
Yes it's true that every deck has something out there that can stop it.
my point was that this deck had many things out there to stop it. a
common problem with one trick pony decks.
> I am not sure you realize one of the subtle keys to the deck. Once you
> figure out what type of combat style (offense/defense) your prey is
playing,
> then you will know how to sink their vamps.
I had realized that subtle key i just wasn't aware that you could force
your opponent to pay for their vampire to be rescued from torpor.
sounds like a good tactic if your prey's vamp is in torpor with two
blood on it - with or without fame!
[ quoted text not captured ]