Wallpaper

As we all know, some cards in this game as totally or near-totally useless. That's no huge tragedy, design mistakes always happen - but sometimes wallpaper becomes ex-wallpaper because of new cards. Let's see: Total wallpaper --------------- - Concealed Weapon Absolutely no reason to use this over Concealed Weapon. - Eyes of the Dead The Deadliest Sin is better in all regards. - Chainsaw Gas-Powered Chainsaw is identical but costs less (and is a melee weapon, which is more plus than minus). - Protracted Investment Secret Horde is better or as good in all cases. Any other cards that have no conceivable use? Near-wallpaper -------------- - Werewolf Pack I can't think of any scenario in which I would prefer this over a Renegade Garou - Most "burnable with (D) action" locations, especially from Dark Sovereigns. Most of these have too little game effect and are far too fragile to be useful. - Blood Puppy Might be useful as a taunt in a nasty intercept deck, but pretty poor as investments go. If it wasn't unique there might be some craze scheme to use this, but...has someone figured out a use for this card? Ex-wallpaper ------------ Hell Hound I would claim that various new cards have made this card at least semi-usable. I may be wrong :) I'm sure there are lots of other cards that could be added to this list, ideas? //Petri

> Near-wallpaper > -------------- > - Werewolf Pack > I can't think of any scenario in which I would prefer this > over a Renegade Garou I can: Abomination. Werewolf Pack + Abomination = 5 pool. Renegage Garou + Abomination = 6 pool. Sorrow --- "Are they dead?" - Pugsly "Does it matter?" - Wednesday

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:48:43 GMT, "Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> said: >> Near-wallpaper >> -------------- >> - Werewolf Pack >> I can't think of any scenario in which I would prefer this >> over a Renegade Garou Sorrow> I can: Abomination. Werewolf Pack + Abomination = 5 pool. Renegage Sorrow> Garou + Abomination = 6 pool. Yeah (already went through this in another message ;), but I'm not convinced. Granted there's a one pool difference, but it seems to me that WP would only be worth it if you plan on *immediately* turning it into a Abomination. Otherwise, the RG's powers are simply so much better that it's more than worth the one pool while you're waiting for an Abomination card. Of course, you could have a ton of WPs and Abominations to guarantee that you get both ASAP... but since Abomination is unique, that would be a bit pointless imho. //Petri

Petri Wessman wrote: > As we all know, some cards in this game as totally or near-totally > useless. That's no huge tragedy, design mistakes always happen - but > sometimes wallpaper becomes ex-wallpaper because of new cards. > > Let's see: > > Total wallpaper > --------------- > > - Concealed Weapon > > Absolutely no reason to use this over Concealed Weapon. Granted. Still, there are fractal corner cases where someone steals your cards (Agaitas) and you don't want to use anything more powerful than you actually need. So if you've got a deck full of weenies with no superior OBF and no weapons other than .44s, you could in theory be paranoid enough about Agaitas's controller using your Disguised Weapons to whip out an Assault Rifle that you restrain yourself to just Concealed Weapon (which is equal to DW for your purposes). > - Eyes of the Dead > > The Deadliest Sin is better in all regards. Utility comes in stacking - you can use both to get +4 intercept vs. Diablerie (in case someone uses a Forgotten Labyrinth on the attempt). Again, a corner case. > - Chainsaw > > Gas-Powered Chainsaw is identical but costs less (and is a > melee weapon, which is more plus than minus). Granted. > - Protracted Investment > > Secret Horde is better or as good in all cases. This could fall under the Agaitas's paranoia umbrella, but is even less likely. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:26:25 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> said: >> - Eyes of the Dead >> >> The Deadliest Sin is better in all regards. vtesrep> Utility comes in stacking - you can use both to get +4 vtesrep> intercept vs. Diablerie (in case someone uses a Forgotten vtesrep> Labyrinth on the attempt). Again, a corner case. Hmmm, good point, I didn't think of that. Thanks :) So if you made some weird "I'm going to torpor, come diablerize me (please)" deck, you might want to include a few EotDs to make sure nobody stealths past you. Ok, I'll buy that. :) //Petri

> - Most "burnable with (D) action" locations, especially from Dark > Sovereigns. > Most of these have too little game effect and are far too > fragile to be useful. These are not quite wallpaper in "Come-and-get-me" intercept combat decks..

In message <3C73CE31...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white- wolf.com> writes: >> - Chainsaw >> >> Gas-Powered Chainsaw is identical but costs less (and is a >> melee weapon, which is more plus than minus). > >Granted. Perhaps a Gargoyle Slave wanting to do damage against a Werewolf Pack? -- James Coupe but I lust after the raw pow0r of c. PGP 0x5D623D5D together with the humping great EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 elephant arse of gnome. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D - Vashti

> Total wallpaper > --------------- > > - Concealed Weapon > > Absolutely no reason to use this over Disguised Weapon. ^^^^^^^^^ > > - Eyes of the Dead > > The Deadliest Sin is better in all regards. they do stack... lol. > > - Chainsaw > > Gas-Powered Chainsaw is identical but costs less (and is a > melee weapon, which is more plus than minus). not gas powered, but shotgun is what makes this crap. same everything but shotgun does 2R instead of 2. > Near-wallpaper > -------------- > > - Werewolf Pack > > I can't think of any scenario in which I would prefer this > over a Renegade Garou Oddly enough, this guy makes chainsaw better than the gas-powered one in some circumstances. Stupid circumstances? Yes. But they exist. > - Blood Puppy > > Might be useful as a taunt in a nasty intercept deck, but > pretty poor as investments go. If it wasn't unique there might > be some craze scheme to use this, but...has someone figured > out a use for this card? I've seen it as bait in a PRO ANI block everything deck. > Hell Hound > > I would claim that various new cards have made this card at > least semi-usable. I may be wrong :) To everyone that uses this card: GO YOU. That's what makes this game so great. Cameron

Petri wrote: >>- Concealed Weapon Absolutely no reason to use this over Concealed Weapon.>> Pretty much correct. >>- Eyes of the Dead The Deadliest Sin is better in all regards.>> But they stack, see--if you are *really* paranoid about Diablere, you can use both... >>- Chainsaw Gas-Powered Chainsaw is identical but costs less (and is a melee weapon, which is more plus than minus).>> Yup. Give all your chainsaws to charity. >>- Protracted Investment Secret Horde is better or as good in all cases.>> Yup. Protracted Investement always sucked. >>- Werewolf Pack I can't think of any scenario in which I would prefer this over a Renegade Garou>> Well, the Abomination conversion. Not really appealing or anything, but it is a possibility. Or if you are in an environment where you find your allies keep gettingkilled by melee weapons... >>- Most "burnable with (D) action" locations, especially from Dark Sovereigns. Most of these have too little game effect and are far too fragile to be useful.>> Not wallpaper. Certainly most of them are corner case, but there is a deck out there somewhere that loves all of these card. Not real good, sure, but there is a use for them somewhere. >>- Blood Puppy Might be useful as a taunt in a nasty intercept deck, but pretty poor as investments go. If it wasn't unique there might be some craze scheme to use this, but...has someone figured out a use for this card?>> Blood Puppy is actually useful in the right decks. There aren't *many* decks that Blood Puppy is good in, but in the few that it is good, it is pretty good. I have seen folks get a huge amount of pool off of Blood Puppy in nasty intercept decks. Not a real utilitarian card, no, but certainly it has uses. >>Hell Hound I would claim that various new cards have made this card at least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)>> Umm, yeah. Still not real good. Sure, he's funny, but I can't really see ever using him in an actual deck. In booster draft, however, he's a killer :-) Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "These streets are filled with danger and madness! MADNESS!" -Zim.

"Petri Wessman" <or...@akumiitti.fi> wrote in message news:7x3czwd...@orava.akumiitti.fi... > > Near-wallpaper > -------------- > There's a *whole* lot of near-wallpaper to be considered. A small sampling: Phobia and Mummify are both horribly bad S:CE cards for a clan that has access to Presence. There are 33 vampires with Serpentis. 9 of them do not have Presence. Of those 9, only 5 are of 5 capacity or less (if you can afford to pay the blood for larger vampires, you can afford to use Presence). The others are Petru Sipos, Murat, Suhailah, and Unre. Not really the kind of vampires to be afraid of combat. But at least 3 of them have <for> so they can use Rapid Healing... =P Coagulate Blood - really, *really* should have been combined with Exuding Blood into one card: 1R damage (only usable at long range... or not, who cares?), 2R damage to an ally. Damage cannot be prevented. (And so on for superior.) As is, the card is utter crap, even *if* you're afraid of allies. Weakness - all I can say is, "what???" Movement of the Mind - was already vastly inferior to Apportation. Bond with the Mountain and Flow Within the Mountain have cut into its corner-case usefulness even more. Growing Fury - the amount by which I would prefer to use Pushing the Limits is almost imeasurable. And the amount by which I would prefer to use Fists of Death instead of Pushing the Limits is pretty large too. Growing Fury has no place in any decent deck. Twisting the Knife - can't believe you missed this one. Tortured Confession - almost as bad as Twisting the Knife (which at least has an optional press at superior). I am so convinced that this card will never go in one of my decks that I keep only one copy (to remind myself of how stupid it is), and eat the rest. They don't taste all that great, but I consider it a service to humanity.

>Movement of the Mind - was already vastly inferior to Apportation. Bond >with the Mountain and Flow Within the Mountain have cut into its corner-case >usefulness even more. Definitely wrong. Movement of the Mind is an *awesome* card and I use it *far* more often than Apportation. (The fact that I only have 4 Apportations is beside the point. Even if I had a hundred, I'd still use MoM more). Yeah, Apportation is the ultimate in Tremere/!Tremere decks. But there are plenty of Tremere/!Tremere decks that *don't* focus on combat. So the press to end is much more useful than you might otherwise think. But then again, I have to admit on using a Police Station from time to time... =) Halcyan 2

> >>Hell Hound > I would claim that various new cards have made this card at > least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)>> > > Umm, yeah. Still not real good. Sure, he's funny, but I can't really see ever > using him in an actual deck. In booster draft, however, he's a killer :-) Please, please, please tell me what use he is and in what kind of deck? I have a TON of these guys... (I bought like 10 of this guy on top of the 30 or so boxes of Jyhad I have). I'd love to build a deck with like 20 of this cute little puppy... but just cna't seem to find justification for how bad he is. Daniel TigToad

halcyann2@aol writes: [ quoted text not captured ] I have a Tremere maneuver combat deck and I would definitely put in some Apportations if I had any. However, Tremere are just not the mightiest of combat clans and I would certainly want MoM for when I'm facing Potence and Assamite clans. Apportation complements, not wallpapers, MoM. I'd go for about a 50/50 split myself. I hope the Cam set includes Apportation and omits MoM, which will nicely completement the old Jyhad set. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson

> Movement of the Mind - was already vastly inferior to Apportation. Bond > with the Mountain and Flow Within the Mountain have cut into its corner-case > usefulness even more. This reminds me of a pickup game at gencon 2 or 3 years ago. I was preying on a Tremere/!Tremere thingy with theft, apportation, walk of flame. I was playing Ravnos Trap, Zipgun, Apporition combat. When the Tremere player (might have been Jeff Thompson?) couldn't press to end combat I ended up (eventually) hitting his vamps into torpor. So yeah, one way presses can be murder. Cameron

"CurtAdams" <curt...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020220215143...@mb-mv.aol.com... > halcyann2@aol writes: > > >>Movement of the Mind - was already vastly inferior to Apportation. Bond > >>with the Mountain and Flow Within the Mountain have cut into its corner-case > >>usefulness even more. > > >Definitely wrong. Movement of the Mind is an *awesome* card and I use it *far* > >more often than Apportation. (The fact that I only have 4 Apportations is > >beside the point. Even if I had a hundred, I'd still use MoM more). > > >Yeah, Apportation is the ultimate in Tremere/!Tremere decks. But there are > >plenty of Tremere/!Tremere decks that *don't* focus on combat. So the press to > >end is much more useful than you might otherwise think. But then again, I have > >to admit on using a Police Station from time to time... =) > But wouldn't you prefer to play Bond With the Mountain instead? If you're facing a killer combat deck, Bond With the Mountain might save you. Movement will sit there saying "if only you could survive the first round, you'd be alright." I don't think Apportation wallpapers MoM. I think a combination of Apportation and the new Visceratika cards wallpapers MoM.

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3C73CE31...@white-wolf.com>... > Petri Wessman wrote: > > As we all know, some cards in this game as totally or near-totally > > useless. That's no huge tragedy, design mistakes always happen - but > > sometimes wallpaper becomes ex-wallpaper because of new cards. > > > > Let's see: > > > > Total wallpaper > > --------------- > > > > - Concealed Weapon > > > > Absolutely no reason to use this over Concealed Weapon. > > Granted. Still, there are fractal corner cases where someone steals > your cards (Agaitas) and you don't want to use anything more powerful > than you actually need. So if you've got a deck full of weenies > with no superior OBF and no weapons other than .44s, you could in > theory be paranoid enough about Agaitas's controller using your > Disguised Weapons to whip out an Assault Rifle that you restrain > yourself to just Concealed Weapon (which is equal to DW for your > purposes). And, under any xCL environments, this will double the bang, since there are 2 different cards. (Note: THIS IS NOT THE START OF A xCL vs. NCL debate!) Tobias Deventer

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:40:39 GMT, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> said: Chris> "Petri Wessman" <or...@akumiitti.fi> wrote in message Chris> news:7x3czwd...@orava.akumiitti.fi... >> >> Near-wallpaper >> -------------- >> Chris> There's a *whole* lot of near-wallpaper to be considered. A small sampling: Chris> Phobia and Mummify are both horribly bad S:CE cards for a clan Chris> that has access to Presence. There are 33 vampires with Chris> Serpentis. 9 of them do not have Presence. Of those 9, only 5 Chris> are of 5 capacity or less (if you can afford to pay the blood Chris> for larger vampires, you can afford to use Presence). The Chris> others are Petru Sipos, Murat, Suhailah, and Unre. Not really Chris> the kind of vampires to be afraid of combat. But at least 3 of Chris> them have <for> so they can use Rapid Healing... =P Well, I think both could be useful... well, at least Phobia. It provides a "backup" combat-ends for those cases where you get Immortally Grappled (or something like that). I haven't used it yet myself, but I don't think it's useless. Mummify... well, it's a kooky card, but the "go to torpor" effect just might be handy in combo with something else. Dunno what, though... Chris> Coagulate Blood - really, *really* should have been combined Chris> with Exuding Blood into one card: 1R damage (only usable at Chris> long range... or not, who cares?), 2R damage to an ally. Chris> Damage cannot be prevented. (And so on for superior.) As is, Chris> the card is utter crap, even *if* you're afraid of allies. Yeah, this one is bad, agreed. But it's free, just might find use in an Assamite weenie horde deck (?). Chris> Weakness - all I can say is, "what???" I've actually tried to use this card, not with much success granted. Burning master-disciplines can be handy at times, some decks rely on them. Chris> Growing Fury - the amount by which I would prefer to use Chris> Pushing the Limits is almost imeasurable. And the amount by Chris> which I would prefer to use Fists of Death instead of Pushing Chris> the Limits is pretty large too. Growing Fury has no place in Chris> any decent deck. Here I have to disagree. I have a "Skinheads'R'Us" !Brujah deck which has 8-9 Bloodbrother Ambushes in it... together with Trap/Press, Growing Fury is eminently useful for the Bloodbrother allies (who ony have inferior potence, and can't really afford to pay blood for potence strikes). What happens is: !Brujah takes action (bleed for +X, etc) Some minion blocks Play Trap If the minion maneuvers, use the built-in 2R If not, Immortal Grapple and strike for 2 hand damage next round, Growing Fury (and the Bloodbrother usually dies) Of course, any decent combat deck will wipe out the Bloodbrothers, but they will do the 2 damage in almost any case, often more, and are totally expendable - people are unwilling to "waste" good combat cards on them :) Chris> Twisting the Knife - can't believe you missed this one. Right you are. This one is crap :) Chris> Tortured Confession - almost as bad as Twisting the Knife Chris> (which at least has an optional press at superior). I am so Chris> convinced that this card will never go in one of my decks that Chris> I keep only one copy (to remind myself of how stupid it is), Chris> and eat the rest. They don't taste all that great, but I Chris> consider it a service to humanity. Dunno, I have a sneaking feeling this card may actually be useful. I'll have to try it out sometime... //Petri

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:21:57 -0700, TigToad <tig...@qwest.net> said: >> >>Hell Hound >> I would claim that various new cards have made this card at >> least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)>> >> >> Umm, yeah. Still not real good. Sure, he's funny, but I can't really see ever >> using him in an actual deck. In booster draft, however, he's a killer :-) tigtoad> Please, please, please tell me what use he is and in what tigtoad> kind of deck? I have a TON of these guys... (I bought like 10 tigtoad> of this guy on top of the 30 or so boxes of Jyhad I have). tigtoad> I'd love to build a deck with like 20 of this cute little tigtoad> puppy... but just cna't seem to find justification for how tigtoad> bad he is. Well, I haven't tried this yet, but I have an idea of a Semedi rush deck which would have lots of Hell Hounds with .44 Magnums doing the blocking. A dog with a Magnum would totally foil lots of weenie horde horrors, and might prove troublesome to others, too. It would leave the Semedis free to rush/bleed, without needing to include too many wakes. Include some Charismas to get the dogs out cheap, and some Left For Deads / Infections to keep them alive. Maybe some Necromancy to reanimate them it they get killed. "Here Fido, have some more blood. Now, kill!" :) Dunno, will probably suck, but I'll have to try it out ;) Should be amusing at least... //Orava

In message <3C7459C5...@qwest.net>, TigToad <tig...@qwest.net> mumbled something about: >> >>Hell Hound >> I would claim that various new cards have made this card at >> least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)>> >> >> Umm, yeah. Still not real good. Sure, he's funny, but I can't really see ever >> using him in an actual deck. In booster draft, however, he's a killer :-) > >Please, please, please tell me what use he is and in what kind of deck? Hell Hound costs 2 pool. If he blocks a single bleed for 2 or two bleeds for ANY amount, he pays for himself. Hell Hound can't be Seduced, and he doesn't mind someone who's Daring the Dawn. If you have a Strained Vitae Supply in play, he can be your best friend; especially if he has a Zip Gun as well. He listens to the KRCG radio station all the time. He's an extra minion who regenerates for a cost of one action and two pool. His biggest downside is that he can't take actions, so he can't go burn the Path for you, say, or anything ELSE it's convenient to have a disposable minion do -- and if someone can kill him when he blocks, then he goes away forever, although Left for Dead is amusing. You would be surprised how many zero-stealth bleeds of [X] occur during a game "just because you're tapped out", though. Hell Hound ensures that you're never tapped out. I will say this; his cost of one action to recruit is probably more detrimental than the 2 pool you spend to get him. It's tough to find extra action slots in most decks. (My Force of Will/Red Herring deck had plenty of action slots, since it had to come up with 2 things to do per minion per turn that weren't bleeds. Hell Hound made a great addition.) -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

I always like "Up Yours".... "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:<rJUc8.27689$UT6....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>... [ quoted text not captured ]

Tobias Deventer wrote: >And, under any xCL environments, this will double the bang, since >there are 2 different cards. (Note: THIS IS NOT THE START OF A xCL vs. >NCL debate!) Are you sure? :)

"Petri Wessman" <or...@akumiitti.fi> wrote in message news:7x7kp7w...@orava.akumiitti.fi... > On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:40:39 GMT, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> said: > > {snip - "Phobia and Mummify are crap"} > > Well, I think both could be useful... well, at least Phobia. It > provides a "backup" combat-ends for those cases where you get > Immortally Grappled (or something like that). I haven't used it yet > myself, but I don't think it's useless. > That's where you'd be wrong... ;) The truth is, it looks decent on paper, but you have to wait *5* friggin turns around the table before you get one S:CE, which wasted an action and a card (which could have been a Majesty or a Behind You!. Or even Dodge). After *10* turrns around the table, you have netted yourself a S:CE at the cost of an action (when compared to Majesty). I'd rather have a Smoke Grenade. Settites, almost more than any other clan, need every action they can get. Perhaps in some kind of weird Settite w/ Auspex "intercept-and-run-away" deck with at least 10 Phobias, you could manage to make some use out of them. But even then, it's awfully weak. I'd rather use equipment to try and survive combat. Even though the equipment is unreliable and costs pool, at least it's usable every combat. > Mummify... well, it's a kooky card, but the "go to torpor" effect just > might be handy in combo with something else. Dunno what, though... > We had this conversation at game night a couple weeks ago. Basically, the only way we could think of to take advantage of this was with pre-reprint Fame, when it hurt the controller's prey. Even then, it would have been sketchy as hell. You could use Regeneration for bloat, but if you already have fortitude, there are easier ways of getting into torpor. You could use a variety of ways (Sacrificial Lamb, Nephandus, etc.) to burn your vampire and then Possess him back, but that really accomplishes very little. You can do it with Soul Gem, but really, there are far better ways to do that. As far as I can tell, there's not really a way to make use of Mummify. It was just designed by the same people that gave us Eyes of the Serpent. ;) > Chris> Growing Fury - the amount by which I would prefer to use > Chris> Pushing the Limits is almost imeasurable. And the amount by > Chris> which I would prefer to use Fists of Death instead of Pushing > Chris> the Limits is pretty large too. Growing Fury has no place in > Chris> any decent deck. > > Here I have to disagree. I have a "Skinheads'R'Us" !Brujah deck which > has 8-9 Bloodbrother Ambushes in it... together with Trap/Press, > Growing Fury is eminently useful for the Bloodbrother allies (who ony > have inferior potence, and can't really afford to pay blood for > potence strikes). > Personally, I'd either pay the one life for Fists of Death, or else just use Increased Strength + Undead Strength. It's one more card, but you can use it first round too. I suppose Growing Fury is alright in such a weird deck, but it's still not *great*. Still near-wallpaper as far as I'm concerned. > What happens is: > > !Brujah takes action (bleed for +X, etc) > Some minion blocks > Play Trap > If the minion maneuvers, use the built-in 2R > If not, Immortal Grapple and strike for 2 hand damage > next round, Growing Fury (and the Bloodbrother usually dies) > Or play Undead Strength first round, Undead Strength second round. One extra card, true, but you deal more damage if they press to end or kill you first round. Of course, a S:CE ruins your day either way. > Chris> Tortured Confession - almost as bad as Twisting the Knife > Chris> (which at least has an optional press at superior). I am so > Chris> convinced that this card will never go in one of my decks that > Chris> I keep only one copy (to remind myself of how stupid it is), > Chris> and eat the rest. They don't taste all that great, but I > Chris> consider it a service to humanity. > > Dunno, I have a sneaking feeling this card may actually be > useful. I'll have to try it out sometime... > I'd like to see it. Personally, I find it to be even worse than Cull the Herd, which isn't very good either. If you've already got them in torpor, what do you really need to see their hand for? You pretty much know what they might have, if you've been paying attention, and you certainly know they don't have combat defense. If you can, rush them again. If you can't, their hand will be totally different by your next turn anyway. There are a few cases where seeing your opponent's hand after you beat up their minion is useful, but not enough to actually get this card into any deck, ever.

"Wouter Kuyper" <wouter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:155a2de5.02022...@posting.google.com... > I always like "Up Yours".... > True, but that card is just so great, I can't bear to think of it as wallpaper. 8)

In message <kuad8.107183$Pz4.505144@rwcrnsc53>, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes: >> Chris> Tortured Confession - almost as bad as Twisting the Knife >> Chris> (which at least has an optional press at superior). I am so >> Chris> convinced that this card will never go in one of my decks that >> Chris> I keep only one copy (to remind myself of how stupid it is), >> Chris> and eat the rest. They don't taste all that great, but I >> Chris> consider it a service to humanity. >> >> Dunno, I have a sneaking feeling this card may actually be >> useful. I'll have to try it out sometime... >> >I'd like to see it. Personally, I find it to be even worse than Cull the >Herd, which isn't very good either. If you've already got them in torpor, >what do you really need to see their hand for? You pretty much know what >they might have, if you've been paying attention, and you certainly know >they don't have combat defense. Because you might be playing bruise and bleed, or bruise and vote, with this as your first action of the turn. Rush a handy vampire with an archon as your first action, torporise them, and then plan the rest of your turn knowing whether they have intercept or bleed bounce. It's definitely not a good card for a deliberately focused deck style. [ quoted text not captured ]

Chris Berger wrote: >Tortured Confession - almost as bad as Twisting the Knife (which at least >has an optional press at superior). I am so convinced that this card will >never go in one of my decks that I keep only one copy (to remind myself of >how stupid it is), and eat the rest. They don't taste all that great, but I >consider it a service to humanity. It can be valuable to know the cards of your opponent's hand. The problem with Tortured Confession is the timing. You put it in a combat deck, and then play it *after* you have defeated your opponent. Chances are, you already know at this point that he lacks adequate combat defence. Meanwhile, before you can play it, it sits around clogging your hand and interfering with your chances of combat success. Another card that is wallpaper because of silly timing is (the reworded version of) Cardinal Sin: Failure of Mission. The original version might have been remotely useful, to play on your prey's vampires when your grandprey blocks them, but the "corrected" version is just silly. If you have just blocked a vampire, and are about to enter combat, you do not need a card that helps you get into combat with that vampire. What you need are combat cards so you can kill him NOW, not something that burns 2 blood and thereby increases the odds of your final death. Not to mention the thematic silliness of punishing someone for failing in an action that you yourself just blocked. I would advocate a rollback to the original text, except that even the original version of the card was so underpowered as to be barely worth playing. If any revisions had been made to this card, it should have been to remove the 2 blood cost, or eliminate the burn option.

> > Mummify... well, it's a kooky card, but the "go to torpor" effect just > > might be handy in combo with something else. Dunno what, though... > > ... > As far as I can tell, there's not really a way to make use of Mummify. It > was just designed by the same people that gave us Eyes of the Serpent. ;) No way! Mummify is excellent! It is just a bit complicated to use. The correct sequence is: 1) Play Serpentis: Discipline master card on a big vampire of your predator. 2) Play Temptation on said big vampire. 3) When you get temporary control of the big vampire, use it to bleed your prey. 4) Big vampire gets blocked and plays Mummify in combat. Opps. 5) And to finish: Samat Ramal-Ra, Archon (Follow of Set) diablerizes the big vampire. This is at stealth, because he's diablerizing someone in your own torpor region, also he can't be blood hunted (being an Archon). * lehrbuch

"lehrbuch" <ri...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:5fee5473.02022...@posting.google.com... > > No way! Mummify is excellent! It is just a bit complicated to use. > The correct sequence is: > > 1) Play Serpentis: Discipline master card on a big vampire of your > predator. > > 2) Play Temptation on said big vampire. > > 3) When you get temporary control of the big vampire, use it to bleed > your prey. > > 4) Big vampire gets blocked and plays Mummify in combat. Opps. > > 5) And to finish: Samat Ramal-Ra, Archon (Follow of Set) diablerizes > the big vampire. This is at stealth, because he's diablerizing > someone in your own torpor region, also he can't be blood hunted > (being an Archon). > Or substitute Fortitude and Daring the Dawn for Serpentis and Mummify.

"Petri Wessman" <or...@akumiitti.fi> wrote in message news:7x3czvw...@orava.akumiitti.fi... > On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:21:57 -0700, TigToad <tig...@qwest.net> said: > > >> >>Hell Hound > >> I would claim that various new cards have made this card at > >> least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)>> > >> > >> Umm, yeah. Still not real good. Sure, he's funny, but I can't really see ever > >> using him in an actual deck. In booster draft, however, he's a killer :-) > > tigtoad> Please, please, please tell me what use he is and in what > tigtoad> kind of deck? I have a TON of these guys... (I bought like 10 > tigtoad> of this guy on top of the 30 or so boxes of Jyhad I have). > tigtoad> I'd love to build a deck with like 20 of this cute little > tigtoad> puppy... but just cna't seem to find justification for how > tigtoad> bad he is. > > Well, I haven't tried this yet, but I have an idea of a Semedi rush > deck which would have lots of Hell Hounds with .44 Magnums doing the > blocking. A dog with a Magnum would totally foil lots of weenie horde > horrors, and might prove troublesome to others, too. It would leave How are you going to get the .44 on the hell hound? He can't equip it, he can't take actions. He cant get it from a rave or Hburg. Is there any way for you to get them on? That is why everyone uses zip guns. -- Aaron The Nosferatu Stuff

In message <a545h6$4gh29$1...@ID-125246.news.dfncis.de>, The Nosferatu Stuff <roans...@yahoo.com> writes: >How are you going to get the .44 on the hell hound? He can't equip it, he >can't take actions. He cant get it from a rave or Hburg. Is there any way >for you to get them on? That is why everyone uses zip guns. A number of people have suggested Succubus Club and Reg Driscoll. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <6afd8.109118$Pz4.511344@rwcrnsc53>, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> mumbled something about: >"lehrbuch" <ri...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:5fee5473.02022...@posting.google.com... >> >> No way! Mummify is excellent! It is just a bit complicated to use. >> The correct sequence is: >> >> 4) Big vampire gets blocked and plays Mummify in combat. Opps. >> >> 5) And to finish: Samat Ramal-Ra, Archon (Follow of Set) diablerizes >> the big vampire. This is at stealth, because he's diablerizing >> someone in your own torpor region, also he can't be blood hunted >> (being an Archon). >> >Or substitute Fortitude and Daring the Dawn for Serpentis and Mummify. Mummify inferior: Cannot rescue self, something that DtD cannot provide. Allows you to omit the diablerie action and force someone to waste a SECOND vampire's action fishing Bob out of torpor. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:pn8b7ucjcq74huf6h...@4ax.com... > >> > >Or substitute Fortitude and Daring the Dawn for Serpentis and Mummify. > > Mummify inferior: Cannot rescue self, something that DtD cannot > provide. Allows you to omit the diablerie action and force someone to > waste a SECOND vampire's action fishing Bob out of torpor. > Sure. Assuming that anyone blocks your bleed for 1. Maybe it'll work once, but a) who cares which vampire is the one to rescue? Better it be the one that has Temptation on it, so he has to spend his own blood. Doesn't matter much to *force* them to use another vampire. They're going to want to anyway. b) You have to get blocked and not get Obedienced, grappled, or TB'd. c) With Daring, you get your bleed through *and* you get the vampire in torpor. With the "bleed and Mummify combo", you only get one of the two, and if you don't get blocked, you can't cycle the Mummify. One crappy combo that barely works doesn't make a good card.

>But wouldn't you prefer to play Bond With the Mountain instead? If you're >facing a killer combat deck, Bond With the Mountain might save you. >Movement will sit there saying "if only you could survive the first round, >you'd be alright." I don't think Apportation wallpapers MoM. I think a >combination of Apportation and the new Visceratika cards wallpapers MoM. Of course Bond with the Mountain (esp. the Dodge) is awesome. But Bond with the Mountain + Movement of the Mind is even better. You can manuever with the MoM, you can Dodge with the Bond, you can use the Bond Press, and the MoM can serve as an additional press if necessary. Together, they're *almost* as good as a S:CE. But there are plenty of reasons why you shouldn't simply replace all the MoM with Bond with the Mountain. Against many forms of combat, the manuever really shines. BwtM is a dodge strike, so an IG hoses you. Also, close range with the !Gangrel (or any Celerity clan) isn't particularly helpful. Though they're probably packing manuevers too, the MoM can't hurt. BwtM actually costs blood while MoM is free. Yeah, Tremere usually don't have a problem getting blood, but there are plenty of times when I end up with an empty Tremere who can't play the Thaumaturgy Dodge (and wishes he had the MoM manuever instead). And finally, using BwtM requires you to devote your strike to that. In many cases you might want to do something else (so the MoM manuever/press might be better). And against many decks, manuever + Theft of Vitae might very well be more useful than dodge with Bond. Halcyan 2

ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu writes; >But wouldn't you prefer to play Bond With the Mountain instead? If you're >facing a killer combat deck, Bond With the Mountain might save you. >Movement will sit there saying "if only you could survive the first round, >you'd be alright." I don't think Apportation wallpapers MoM. I think a >combination of Apportation and the new Visceratika cards wallpapers MoM. No, Flow With the Mountain is *only* a press, *and* it costs 1 blood. With an Apportation/MoM mix you can maneuver with one and press with the other, so you'll almost always be able to press in or out as desired. FWtM would leave you short on maneuvers so you may get creamed by that POT combat deck which you could otherwise maneuver and press away from. When fighting non-combat decks you'll be paying blood for the FWtM press and occaisionally getting slapped because you missed the maneuver. I wouldn't much want FWtM if I weren't playing a Tremere/Gargoyle deck (don't hold your breath on that). I'd rather a Do Not Replace Boxed In than pay a blood. Even in a Gargoyle deck there's not much a POT/FOR clan will do that will be blocked and is that essential to finish. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:01:35 -0500, "The Nosferatu Stuff" <roans...@yahoo.com> said: >> Well, I haven't tried this yet, but I have an idea of a Semedi rush >> deck which would have lots of Hell Hounds with .44 Magnums doing the >> blocking. A dog with a Magnum would totally foil lots of weenie horde >> horrors, and might prove troublesome to others, too. It would leave The> How are you going to get the .44 on the hell hound? He can't The> equip it, he can't take actions. He cant get it from a rave or The> Hburg. Is there any way for you to get them on? That is why The> everyone uses zip guns. Red Driscoll. That's why I was thinking of a Semedi deck. //Petri

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > I will say this; his cost of one action to recruit is probably more > detrimental than the 2 pool you spend to get him. It's tough to find > extra action slots in most decks. Y'know...you could play Jake Washington during your master phase and use him to hire the Hellhound, leaving your vampires to do other things. Regards, Noal

I think Oxford University is a very serious challenger for the tite of worst wallpaper card ever. At least, chainsaw can be played if you don't have enough gas powered chainsaw, same for concealed weapon. And there are still xCL environments. But Oxford University !!! Pay 2 pool, pay 2X pool to get X votes, and get it burned as a D action. What a dream !!! I wonder if someone ever played a few of these guys : Cammie All stars, foreach clan Appolonius Wilhelm Waldburg Lazarus Tura Vaughn Judah Damaskenos, herald of Leandro Radeyah Independant All stars Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried) Tereza Rostas maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites Husamettin Sabbat All Stars Quentin Caitlin (errated version) Yong-Sun, Harmonist Ramiro ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Lasombra Bronwen Hannibal Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere Matteus Anton ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Tzimisce Rex, the Necronomist Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort Lithrac Mary the Black Well I am waiting for all these nominees advocates, as I charge them with wallpaperness. Emmanuel

Howdy Emmanuel, OK, I'm going to leave the others to their own particular champions, but I can't ignore this one: > Quentin > Well I am waiting for all these nominees advocates, as I charge > them with wallpaperness. Dude - have you read the card? Not only is Quentin one of the two !Ventrue with all in-clan at superior (and one of the only four !Ventrue with superior FO), he also has one of the best specials in the game! Even his off-clan disciplines don't suck: obtenebration at inferior is one of the more widespread off-clans among !Ventrue, and make him useful in !Ven/Lasombra hybrids. (OK, so the celerity isn't real useful.) Are you getting hung up on the fact that he's a 9-cap Bishop? Re-read his special. He's really a 9-cap Sabbat 'Inner Circle' member. He outvotes any other single vampire on the table. (And is a great target for Cardinal Benediction.) On the other hand, his picture does bite the great furry wazoo. Which is another argument against trying to use him for wallpaper - do you really want him staring down at you from the walls, all squished up and blurry? There are _much_ less useful !Ventrue, though I'd be hard pressed to call any of them wallpaper. Personal least favorites are Dylan and Vincent, who are loaded up with off-clan disciplines, and Dominique and Kyle don't see a lot of use around me (Kyle for his inferior fo, Dominique 'cause she's always seems too expensive for what she brings to a deck). But Dylan gets used off clan for do/pt and his +bleed from what I've seen, and Vincent's fo/po and/or fo/th have their uses as well. Hope that helps, Alex !Ventrue Newsletter Editor-in-Exile

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:lep87u04m70893crm...@4ax.com... > In message <3C7459C5...@qwest.net>, > > Hell Hound costs 2 pool. If he blocks a single bleed for 2 or two > bleeds for ANY amount, he pays for himself. > Embrace costs 2 blood. There are advantages to being an ally, but there are *more* advantages to being a vampire. Granted, you can play with Memories of Mortality and build your deck around allies, but their are better allies than the Hell Hound.

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>Or substitute Fortitude and Daring the Dawn for Serpentis and Mummify. > > Mummify inferior: Cannot rescue self, something that DtD cannot > provide. Allows you to omit the diablerie action and force someone to > waste a SECOND vampire's action fishing Bob out of torpor. Mummify angle only works if minion is blocked. No combat means no Mummify. Meanwhile DtD guarantees both a successful bleed (why not use Force of Will while you're at it?) and the minion going to torpor. Also....many more vampires already have Fortitude than Serpentis, lessening the need for tons of Discipline cards. Regards, Noal

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020222030300...@mb-fi.aol.com... > > Of course Bond with the Mountain (esp. the Dodge) is awesome. But Bond with the > Mountain + Movement of the Mind is even better. You can manuever with the MoM, > you can Dodge with the Bond, you can use the Bond Press, and the MoM can serve > as an additional press if necessary. Together, they're *almost* as good as a > S:CE. > I'd rather play with a mixture of Bond with the Mountain and Apportation. ;)

"Emmanuel Martin" <e...@boursorama.com> wrote in message news:10c2c156.02022...@posting.google.com... > > But Oxford University !!! > Pay 2 pool, pay 2X pool to get X votes, and get it burned as a D > action. What a dream !!! > That's an awful card, yes it is. > Wilhelm Waldburg > Aww... Wilhelm's one of my favourites. He has aus/cel (and PRE/FOR), which makes him perfect to use the outferiors in a Daughters deck. My "Wilhelm's Bitches" DoC deck with 2 Wil's, and 2 of each Daughter was a riot. No defense at all, but the bleed/vote/choir monsters will freak drive you to death if you leave them alone long enough. > Tura Vaughn > She has some undeniable, ehm... assets. > Quentin > I gotta go with Alex on this one... Quentin??? He's either my favourite or second favourite !Ven (Gustav and Lazverinus also being awesome). > Caitlin (errated version) > What errata'd version? > Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort > Lithrac > Mary the Black > Also Unre, and Terry.

Chris Berger wrote: > "Emmanuel Martin" <e...@boursorama.com> wrote in message > > Caitlin (errated version) > > > What errata'd version? He probably means the SW version (6 capacity) - a change from the Sabbat version (5 capacity). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

e...@boursorama.com (Emmanuel Martin) wrote: > But Oxford University !!! > Pay 2 pool, pay 2X pool to get X votes, and get it > burned as a D action. What a dream !!! I agree. Bleh. > I wonder if someone ever played a few of these guys : > Cammie All stars, foreach clan > > Appolonius A 10 cap Brujah with inferior Potence? Not bloodly likely. > Wilhelm Waldburg > Lazarus Both are 9 caps with all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior. One's a Prince, the other is a Primogen with a useful special. You could do much worse. Nakova and Elisabetta Romano come to mind. > Tura Vaughn 2 Brujah? She's an 8 cap Primogen with all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior. You could do much worse. Appolonius, for example. > Judah A 6 cap Primogen with POT/ani/dom? eeh. Not great, not shitty. Could be awesome in a deck that uses all 3 discplines, though. I'd nominate Regilio as the most pointless Nossie. > Damaskenos, herald of Leandro I've used him in a Dom/Cel/Pot deck with the Euro Brujah. He absolutely rocked there. Like Cornelius Ottavio, he's very useful in a deck that doesn't center around the Malkavian's normal disciplines. > Radeyah Great in a Brujah rush deck. We even have a player that plays nothing but Setites so her special comes in handy quite a bit. If it wasn't for the +1 Bleed and being a Prince, Marcellus would be among the worst vampires in the game. I've made an effort to make an Aus/Cel/Pro deck and there just weren't enough decent vampires to pull it off. > Independant All stars > > Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried) I've been giving thought to a Quietus/Thaumaturgy deck that does a lot of pre-range damage. She may work there. Still only a theory, though. > Tereza Rostas Eeh. Certainly not my favorite Ravnos. Special is comepletely useless. > maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites Kemintiri rocks. None of the Setites are really very poor. > Husamettin 8 cap with all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior? Also has that Potence and Presence angle to tie in with Brujah. Husamettin is The Man. > Sabbat All Stars (You're really going to have to stretch here. Most of the Sabbat Vampires are awesome.) > Quentin He's got all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior and cancels the votes of other vampires! How can you go wrong? Sorry...but this guy rocks the house in a !Ventrue vote deck. Dylan is probably the worst vampire of this clan, but even he's usable. > Caitlin (errated vesion) A 6 cap Primogen with 2 in-clan disciplines at superior? She still is awesome. Pound for pound, Blaise is the worst vampire in this clan. > Yong-Sun, Harmonist 10 Cap Cardinal with all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior and a unique special. What's the problem here? Truth be told, none of the vampires in this clan are poor. > Ramiro ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Lasombra If there is, he fits the bill. > Bronwen 10 Cap Priscus with all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior and a useful special. See Young-Sun above. > Hannibal See Young-Sun above. > Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere See Young-Sun above. > Matteus See Bronwen above. > Anton ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Tzimisce Built in intercept is always good. Minor Vicissitude is the only knock against him. > Rex, the Necronomist No argument. This guy is awful. > Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort > Lithrac A 5 cap with 3 in-clan disciplines, with one at superior AND two useful specials? The only thing he's missing is the sesame seed bun. You want fries with that? > Mary the Black A 7 cap with all 3 in-clan disciplines, 2 at superior AND she has built-in aggravated hand damage. She's wallpaper?!? What kind of crack are you smoking? > Well I am waiting for all these nominees advocates, as I charge > them with wallpaperness. Given your suggestions, I charge you with 30 lashes with a wet noodle and writing the full definition of wallpaper on the blackboard 500 times. Regards, Noal McDonald VEKN Prince of Metro Detroit

>I wonder if someone ever played a few of these guys : > >Cammie All stars, foreach clan > >Appolonius >Wilhelm Waldburg >Lazarus >Tura Vaughn These last three are all kind of expensive, but they are hardly useless. >Judah >Damaskenos, herald of Leandro Been seeing him more lately as decks want pot/DOM. >Radeyah The only one out of this group that I never see played is Apple. Though, Radeyah is fairly challenging. >Independant All stars > >Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried) >Tereza Rostas >maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites >Husamettin Again, the last three are okay, they have their disciplines. >Sabbat All Stars > >Quentin Huh? >Caitlin (errated version) Huh? >Yong-Sun, Harmonist >Ramiro ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Lasombra >Bronwen >Hannibal I see him surprisingly often in !Malk decks. >Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere >Matteus Voting !Toreador that unusual? >Anton ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Tzimisce >Rex, the Necronomist > >Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort >Lithrac >Mary the Black For Bloodlines clan decks you don't have a lot of choice. [ quoted text not captured ]

Chris Berger wrote: >Embrace costs 2 blood. There are advantages to being an ally, but there are >*more* advantages to being a vampire. Granted, you can play with Memories >of Mortality and build your deck around allies, but there are better allies >than the Hell Hound. Well, more to the point, there are better allies that are either unique or require a clan. Hell Hound is probably balanced compared to, say, Arcanum Investigator. I suspect that Hell Hound may be coming into his own. His main advantage is his power of regeneration. Unfortunately, this has not amounted to much in the past, it takes only 2 damage to kill him, and you cannot regenerate when you are dead. But now, an array of tricks exist for the preservation of his life. Left for Dead, Martyr's Resilience, Infection, Resurrection Also, the disadvantages of being a vampire may be increasing, with the appearance of new cards like Beast Meld - unblockable for vampires, and does not induce torpor.

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3C76A937...@white-wolf.com... > Chris Berger wrote: > > "Emmanuel Martin" <e...@boursorama.com> wrote in message > > > Caitlin (errated version) > > > > > What errata'd version? > > He probably means the SW version (6 capacity) - a change from the > Sabbat version (5 capacity). > Sweet enola gay! I hadn't noticed that. Wow... she's suddenly not so broken. Kudos to the stealth-reprint team. ;)

In message <ebyd8.7895$%D5.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes: >> He probably means the SW version (6 capacity) - a change from the >> Sabbat version (5 capacity). >> >Sweet enola gay! I hadn't noticed that. Wow... she's suddenly not so >broken. Kudos to the stealth-reprint team. ;) Erm, on a purely technical point, this was advertised at the time of release. [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald wrote: > > e...@boursorama.com (Emmanuel Martin) wrote: > > But Oxford University !!! > > Pay 2 pool, pay 2X pool to get X votes, and get it > > burned as a D action. What a dream !!! > > I agree. Bleh. > You all forgot this wonderfully wallpapered item. Pere Lachaise, France [DS] Cardtype: Master Cost: 3 pool Master: unique location. You may place one of your burned vampires on this card. You may use a master phase action to move 1 blood from the blood bank to this vampire. If the blood on the vampire equals the vampire's capacity, place the vampire in the <ready> region at the end of the master phase and burn this card. Any minion can burn this card as a (D) action and send the vampire on it directly to the ash heap. Pay three pool to get a card in play that is D removable and if your unlucky enough to have placed a vampire there and wasted a whole lot of master phase actions, you Might get a vampire returned to play. Mostly you will be out 3 pool, 1 vampire and a bunch of master phases. Raille

"Raille" <rai...@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:3C76BD6B...@spamcop.net... > > > Pere Lachaise, France [DS] > Cardtype: Master > Cost: 3 pool > > Pay three pool to get a card in play that is D removable and if your > unlucky enough to have placed a vampire there and wasted a whole lot of > master phase actions, you Might get a vampire returned to play. Mostly > you will be out 3 pool, 1 vampire and a bunch of master phases. > Well, you won't really be out 1 vampire, since the vampire was already burned. Just 3 pool and a bunch of master phases. Sounds like a good deal to me. ;)

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:fMwd8.7645$%D5.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... [Wilhelm is wallpaper?] > Aww... Wilhelm's one of my favourites. He has aus/cel (and PRE/FOR), which Gotta agree. Wilhelm is huge, yes...but he's so princely and stuff. > makes him perfect to use the outferiors in a Daughters deck. My "Wilhelm's > Bitches" DoC deck with 2 Wil's, and 2 of each Daughter was a riot. No Even in light of the fact that I rarely have good deck names, I think that naming this "Willy's Bitches" would be much funnier. :) [re: inclusion of Lazarus on the list] Well, I probably should be defending Lazarus, but I just can't. In fact, I don't really like any of the high-capacity Tremere Primogen. Especially Cassandra. Halcyan always yells at me about that, but I don't care. Neither of them have anything really exciting outside of their clan disciplines, and their specials, while okay, aren't amazing, by any means. Though I would actually nominate...yeah, I gotta go with Noal on this one. Elisabetta Romano. Though Lydia Van Cuelen comes pretty close, even *with* her +1 bleed. And Sabine Lafitte isn't too far behind that. Xian

"Emmanuel Martin" <e...@boursorama.com> wrote in message news:10c2c156.02022...@posting.google.com... > I think Oxford University is a very serious challenger for the tite of > worst wallpaper card ever. > > At least, chainsaw can be played if you don't have enough gas powered > chainsaw, same for concealed weapon. And there are still xCL > environments. no you won't play that evenif someone pays you to do so. Pack some Sawed of Shotgun instead : same price, does R damage and you can use the famous dragon breath rounds on top. > But Oxford University !!! > Pay 2 pool, pay 2X pool to get X votes, and get it burned as a D > action. What a dream !!! what a nightmare, you mean. I heard of someone who made a Brujah Parity shift deck using this card. He could get as low on pool as he wanted to to play parity shift three times in a row. That mus hust in a 5 p game =) So there's a use even for that waste of paper =p > I wonder if someone ever played a few of these guys : > > Cammie All stars, foreach clan > > Appolonius Yes. He rocks. I played it numerous time, back to old jyhad era. (especially when we played under 4cl) He makes a good combinations with crusher, he has +1 bleed, and has an optional press so you use less cards. Should he be a prince, he would be one of my favorite vampires ever. > Wilhelm Waldburg well, you still have some use for him. It's a 9 cap prince, yes, but he has useful out of clan discipline depending on what you're playing. I used him along with democritus to gain stealth via Alacrity (don't laugh ;) ) mainly for calling votes at +2 stealth. Granted that now you have better options. > Tura Vaughn In a brujah dominate deck. She is a good connection between your Anvil, Don Cruez and even Theo bell =) > Judah played him in a Giovanni/ Nosfe deck. Pot, Ani, Dom, Nec. Very useful, along with Enzo and Shane Grimald. > Damaskenos, herald of Leandro played him in an early version of a thoughts betrayed deck (think didi meyers) since he is still one of the youngest vampires with DOM. Used him some time later in an plain and simple Eurobrujah deck. Wonderful =) > Radeyah Kamel used her in a toreador/brujah celerity/potence/presence rush deck. He even used her special once =) > Independant All stars > > Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried) yes and i'm not the only one. Think about recursion... Patrizia Fetch a ghoul escort from your ash heap. Vykos recruits a War ghoul ( or better : let Lambach Summon a war ghoul ;) ) Burn the Ghoul escort to satisfy card text. Use the warghoul at will =D now recruit the ghoul escort from the ash heap asap. If you recruit another war ghoul, burn the ghoul escort again and again. If your war ghoul dies, play compel the spirit with Patrizia and burn the ghoul escort again... You have to work a little but her ability don't suck. She is just a bit overcosted. A 4 capacity Patrizia would be in both my assamite qui/tha deck and my giovanni weather/nihilo deck > Tereza Rostas I used her for potence. She's not so bad for an 8 cap. You can use her for Aus too... > maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites She IS powerful. I used her in a thaumaturgy obfuscate dominate deck. Lots of heavy bleeds, hidden lurkers and steal blood a gogo. > Husamettin he is currently in my assamite with potence deck. For two more pool i can have Thetmes. But he is already in, 4 copies. Hussametin is a nice backup. > Sabbat All Stars > > Quentin one of the best vampires in the whole jyhad. You fool. Can cancel the votes of any vampire, each political action. Gives a headache to moste political vote. When he's ready, you can put into play Demonstration for more headaches... > Caitlin (errated version) she's the cheapest vampire with PRO + ANI. She has aus and dom. She is useful. You can play !gangrel without fortitude, you know that =) think about the new posibilites with Beast meld =) she can call votes totally unblockable without going to torpor or spending more than 2 blood ! > Yong-Sun, Harmonist OBF THA again. But i never tried since i prefer kemintri =) > Ramiro ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Lasombra Ramiro rocks. In a vote deck, along with gratiano and Angelica : call votes in a forgotten labyrinth... Equip with weapons during combat... Play hidden pathways so your army of embraces will have a cool time Shadow twining everyone around... > Bronwen Played her for a long time. Dodge even when opponent played thought betrayed.Priscus : try Eternal vigilance. All in clan discipline, plus obtenebration. Add jacko, sela and some Black metamorphosis. Have fun. Add stealth when you bleed or rush. recruit some Shades, and dodge on the first round of combat to see your opponent taking damage from nowhere => fully compatible with eternal vigilance > Hannibal Oh my fxxx god ! you must be insane !!! he was the favorite of my old coma deck. Come on ! Cardinal = 3 votes. 10 cap = you wont' change my vote like that. Special = I steal blood from you. And if you try to block me, i cycle stealth. Or I put you in torpor. I can Pulse that canaille, bleed my predator for loads and switch places with cardinal + priscus votes + Televotecouting = too much voices for you. > Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere I played her with much success !! again, Dark metamorphosis. Again, stealth when you bleed, when you Mind rape, when you rush. You don't want to end up in combat with the wrong guy, dont you ? > Matteus I played him in a CEL/VIC deck with some obf and ani in the mix. Along with Anton and Blaise. He is wonderful, guy. And he still have 3 votes. You try to bleed me ? okay, block with loads of intercept, watch your hand... Give you -2 stealth, -2 hand damage and then hit you with 2 aggravated for the fun. come again if you dare ! > Anton ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Tzimisce Built in intercept is one of the best ability you can have ! Anton has two more advantage : ANI, which is the king discipline concerning untap. AUS, of course for mor intercept, and Obf to pull a nice ancient vampire Bone from his pocket. Even without a weapon, what do you do against Carrion crows for 2 + an aggravated scorpion sting ? It's the one vampires who makes you reluctant to minion tap / 5th... > Rex, the Necronomist i can't see no use... but if you think about it, without his inherent flaw, he would be grossly overpowered. Ambush, Torn, Flesh, Immortal, 2 agg poke, amaranth. Get rid of This Inner circle over here and Influence another Rex at the end of your turn... > Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort > Lithrac What the ??? this gem can do agg damage, prevent loads of damage, play amaranth safely in the beginning and endgames. What else do you need ? > Mary the Black Whoo hoo ! What do we have here ? Apart from DAI, which is useful for condemnations, bleed and intercept, a vampire who has PRE, one of the most useful disc in the game ! Bleed, combat ends, vote gain, ally steal. Obf : more stealth ! cel : i can outmaneveur you and continue or stop a combat, strike more. pot : grapple you ! throwing big objects on your face ! And on top of that, she can burn on blood to make her hand damage aggravated for the current round. *each round* and with cel as a backup, you *will* eat an aggravated knuckle sandwich sooner or later. It's the only vampire in the game with such power. Even with a zero card hand, she can torporize you fool =) No wonder she's summoning my Heralds of Topeth. I can't imagine you can criticize some of the best vampires in the game =) hop the defense was well conducted ;) reyda

In message <a56n7u$ghc$1...@neon.noos.net>, Reyda <re...@noos.fr> writes: >> At least, chainsaw can be played if you don't have enough gas powered >> chainsaw, same for concealed weapon. And there are still xCL >> environments. > >no you won't play that evenif someone pays you to do so. Pack some Sawed of >Shotgun instead : same price, does R damage and you can use the famous >dragon breath rounds on top. As I said, Gargoyle Slave wanting to do damage to a Werewolf Pack. Sawed Off Shotgun can't be used; Chainsaw can. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <jLhd8.2846$tJ2....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> mumbled something about: >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:pn8b7ucjcq74huf6h...@4ax.com... >> >> >> >Or substitute Fortitude and Daring the Dawn for Serpentis and Mummify. >> >> Mummify inferior: Cannot rescue self, something that DtD cannot >> provide. Allows you to omit the diablerie action and force someone to >> waste a SECOND vampire's action fishing Bob out of torpor. >> >Sure. Assuming that anyone blocks your bleed for 1. Maybe it'll work once, No, no, no. That won't be a bleed for 1. That will be the vampire with the Serpentis skill card playing another Temptation on another vampire. I bet THAT action gets blocked a whole lot more often -- and if it doesn't, well, your vamps with all your disciplines are free to act, and your list of Tempted vampires grows exponentially. >but a) who cares which vampire is the one to rescue? Better it be the one >that has Temptation on it, so he has to spend his own blood. Doesn't matter >much to *force* them to use another vampire. They're going to want to >anyway. b) You have to get blocked and not get Obedienced, grappled, or >TB'd. c) With Daring, you get your bleed through *and* you get the vampire Big deal. I get blocked a lot and not Obedienced, Grappled, or TB'd. Lotsa-Block decks don't generally play Grapple or TB. They play things like "Carrion Crows, Horrid Form, Chiropteran Marauder". >in torpor. With the "bleed and Mummify combo", you only get one of the two, >and if you don't get blocked, you can't cycle the Mummify. Again, Temptation and Mummify gets you blocked a lot more. I like Temptation/Mummify better than I like bleed/Daring, since you can't count on the bleed being for any more than 1. If you don't block the Temptation, that's GREAT for me, of course. If I really want someone to block, then I just use your vampire to Tempt a vampire of your prey or predator, as appropriate. They will be glad to block, I'm sure. If you Tempt a vampire that CAN bump the bleed, that's a bonus, but expecting it is a Strategy of Lose. Requires lots of Temptations since you'll be wasting some of them, but that's not REALLY all that difficult. >One crappy combo that barely works doesn't make a good card. You haven't thought it all the way through. I don't consider Mummify a good card anyway, but this *is* an ugly way to make use of it. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <bb705c59.02022...@posting.google.com>, dhar...@my-deja.com (Noal McDonald) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>Or substitute Fortitude and Daring the Dawn for Serpentis and >Mummify. >> >> Mummify inferior: Cannot rescue self, something that DtD cannot >> provide. Allows you to omit the diablerie action and force someone to >> waste a SECOND vampire's action fishing Bob out of torpor. > >Mummify angle only works if minion is blocked. No combat means no >Mummify. See message to Chris. Temptation with freshly Serpentized vampire tends to increase chances of being blocked. =) >Meanwhile DtD guarantees both a successful bleed (why not use Force of >Will while you're at it?) and the minion going to torpor. Also....many >more vampires already have Fortitude than Serpentis, lessening the >need for tons of Discipline cards. Force of Will is neat, but only a bleed for 2, and you have to find an action to take to tap them ("hunt" is the usual last resort, but who wants to give their prey's vampires blood?). The real question here is: is an additional Temptation on an additional vampire more useful than a bleed for 1 or 2? [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <10c2c156.02022...@posting.google.com>, e...@boursorama.com (Emmanuel Martin) mumbled something about: >I wonder if someone ever played a few of these guys : > >Cammie All stars, foreach clan > >Appolonius The classic nut-puncher. >Wilhelm Waldburg Is a Ventrue Prince with PRE/DOM/FOR, which is never bad. >Lazarus Before the Final Nights Assamites, was one of your best Thelerity vampires... Flash, Theft, Blur, Theft, 1R to torpor (after skill card, of course). Is still not that bad. >Tura Vaughn STILL the cheapest Brujah with PRE/POT/CEL. >Judah Bleed for 1, Conditioning. If blocked: Drawing out the Beast, Torn Signpost, IG, Undead Strength, Taste. >Damaskenos, herald of Leandro Has big Dominate. Never underestimate big Dominate. >Radeyah Has pre/pot/CEL and a built-in Rush, which is quite useful these days. >Sabbat All Stars > >Quentin Quentin is the backbone of ANY !Ventrue voter deck. He ownz. >Matteus Can play Enhanced Senses, Sideslip, Blur, Fleshcraft, Majesty superior. >Anton ? No minion with inherent +1 intercept is EVER wallpaper. >Lithrac OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan, having nut-munchers around is always nice. >Mary the Black Trap, Fear the Void Below, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid... If you maneuver back to close, burn a blood and poke for 1 agg. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <7lqd7uk2dipveneqm...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes: >>Appolonius > >The classic nut-puncher. Hard to do when he only has inferior Potence. And inferior Fortitude will mean he doesn't feel it much anyway. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:76qd7uo8u2pnc5e4m...@4ax.com... > > The real question here is: is an additional Temptation on an additional > vampire more useful than a bleed for 1 or 2? > The question is... is an additional Temptation more useful than a bleed for 1 or 2 plus a dead vampire. And that one's kind of iffy. Since Settites still have some problems defending, depriving your predator of their vampire (Temptation only takes it on your turn, unfortunately) might help more than that extra Temptation. On the other hand, you might get blocked, and might be able to play the Mummify, which has absolutely no other use in your deck than this combo. I *like* the idea of using the extra vampire to play a Temptation, but I'd rather Cloak/Form of the Serpent than Mummify. On the other hand, it all seems like a convoluted combo that wastes your master phase action anyway. Not that it's bad... If you *do* happen to have that extra Serpentis skill, then by all means, go for it... but otherwise, I tend to use the stolen vamps to diablerize my own vampires, rescue my own vampires, or just Heidelburg all but one blood and bleed with them. I'm not gonna pack my deck full of Serpentis skills and Mummify. And I doubt you are either.

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<SsFwQHee...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > > As I said, Gargoyle Slave wanting to do damage to a Werewolf Pack. > > Sawed Off Shotgun can't be used; Chainsaw can. Why cant SOS not be used agains WwP? SOS isn´t a meele wepon, and WwP isn´t immune to guns :)

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7lqd7uk2dipveneqm...@4ax.com... > In message <10c2c156.02022...@posting.google.com>, > e...@boursorama.com (Emmanuel Martin) mumbled something about: > > >Wilhelm Waldburg > > Is a Ventrue Prince with PRE/DOM/FOR, which is never bad. > and cel/aus. He's the pimp-daddy. And the Daughters all think he's the coolest. > >Judah > > Bleed for 1, Conditioning. If blocked: > > Drawing out the Beast, Torn Signpost, IG, Undead Strength, Taste. > For the Shane/Judah deck, eh? Heh... I'd like to see it work, actually. If I had a few more of those two, I'd do it in a heartbeat (probably need about 3 of each. Probably need about 3-4 Don Cruez's for 5th Traditions, because all the other vampires to use are huge, and you'll need to Minion Tap like a mofo. > >Damaskenos, herald of Leandro > > Has big Dominate. Never underestimate big Dominate. > and non-existant obfuscate. There are 14 other vampires of capacity 6 or less that have big Dominate, 2 of them have obf, 3 have nec, 1 has pro. Damaskenos' only stealth discipline is... Celerity. He's pretty much your smallest candidate for a Euro-Brujah deck, but other than that, he really, really does suck. > >Radeyah > > Has pre/pot/CEL and a built-in Rush, which is quite useful these days. > Umm... she has a built-in Settite-rush. Which is not that useful, even these days. Please, a free Settite-rush is *not* worth 2 points. She has Brujah disciplines, and so can go in a Brujah deck, but cannot play Brujah cards (although there aren't very many good ones) in addition to being overcosted. Rigby is essentially the same, but is 1 capacity smaller and has PRE. Bianca is the same as her but has +1 str instead of the practically useless rush. > >Matteus > > Can play Enhanced Senses, Sideslip, Blur, Fleshcraft, Majesty superior. > And he would want to do that because??? Who in the world is going to play an aus/cel/pre/vic deck??? He's the only one with all four disciplines. I'd rather play Cat's Guidance instead of Majesty anyway. And almost anything instead of Fleshcraft. > >Anton ? > > No minion with inherent +1 intercept is EVER wallpaper. > How about this minion: Big Eyes 10 capacity Tremere obf Sabbat: +1 intercept *grin* But yeah, Anton is not wallpaper. I think Violet Tremain is the closest thing to a wallpaper Tzimisce. She has a cool special, and you *can* make a deck based on it, but a) I still haven't seen one that actually works, and b) most Tzimisce decks just really have no use for her. She's the only vampire with dom/pre/tha (besides Uncle Ian), if that means anything... > >Lithrac > > OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan, having > nut-munchers around is always nice. > Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that fearful without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn with some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't acceptable for a 6 cap. Doing agg damage is all fine and good, but with no way to prevent S:CE/dodge/prevention, what's the point? Are you saying no one even uses combat defense around you? It's one thing for the Lasombra to use Coma... you don't really expect much beatdown from Lasombra (even though they have Potence). You can't really expect anything *else* from Samedi. > >Mary the Black > > Trap, Fear the Void Below, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid... > > If you maneuver back to close, burn a blood and poke for 1 agg. > Basically, the agg hand damage just isn't enough to make up for being Infernal. Bajazet can make his hand damage aggravated, but his clan is a combat clan and his one extra capacity is a small price to pay compared to Infernal.

"Daz" <wb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b57b2dc9.0202...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] erm... gargoyle slave *ally* cannot use ranged weapons. I wonder why this limitation though...

>Well, I probably should be defending Lazarus, but I just can't. In fact, I >don't really like any of the high-capacity Tremere Primogen. Especially >Cassandra. Halcyan always yells at me about that, but I don't care. >Neither of them have anything really exciting outside of their clan >disciplines, and their specials, while okay, aren't amazing, by any means. Quiet Xian! No one disses my girl!!! Grrrr... Cassandra is simply *awesome*. She's one of the best 9-10 cap Primogens. She has decent disciplines (superior in-clan and cel pre). *And* she has a nifty handsize special (which never hurts), she's the only Tremere/!Tremere with extra strength, she has a marginally useful title, *and* she has a super super cool picture. C'mon. Don't you wish you could read a book while floating in the air? I still haven't gotten around to building an aus/cel/pre/tha deck with Cassie, Javier, Klaus, and Melisande. I might even make a version that's a gun deck. Magic of the Smith takes care of the problem of equipping with guns. (Fetch Pier 13 or other guns afterwards). Um...so you'd better watch it Xian. You're skating on thin ice when you try to mess with Cassandra! >Though I would actually nominate...yeah, I gotta go with Noal on this one. >Elisabetta Romano. Though Lydia Van Cuelen comes pretty close, even *with* >her +1 bleed. I'll agree with these two. Have never used either Elisabetta or Lydia. Elisabetta at least has a cool name and an *interesting* picture (pink hair?). Lydia's pretty fugly. >And Sabine Lafitte isn't too far behind that. Sabine's actually decent. I find her special to be decent in weenie Tremere decks. Yeah, she's not awesome, but she's not that bad. Maybe she can use her potence to destroy some Meat Hooks... Yeah, Elisabetta and Lydia are the worst Tremere. Thomas isn't that great either. And I rarely waste my time with Mustafa (the only Tremere/!Tremere without Thaumaturgy). And just for you Xian, the absolute suckiest Tremere would just have to be that whining little Cardano-guy. As for !Tremere, Kurt is the worst. 4 points of disciplines on a 5-cap? He got really screwed. While Richard is useful, he also got screwed. 3 points of disciplines *and* a disadvantages for a 4-cap? He really didn't need the intercept penalty, however corner-case it may be (though I've seen it become significant several times). Halcyan 2

>Both are 9 caps with all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior. One's a >Prince, the other is a Primogen with a useful special. You could do >much worse. Nakova and Elisabetta Romano come to mind. C'mon, how can you diss Nakova? She is *hot*! Yeah, she got *totally* screwed in points, but she has just such a lovely picture, with the kitty and all... Despite Tura's...um..."features"...Nakova is so much better! (picture-wise) >> Independant All stars >> >> Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried) > >I've been giving thought to a Quietus/Thaumaturgy deck that does a lot >of pre-range damage. She may work there. Still only a theory, though. Qui/Tha can be pretty nasty. Foul Blood + Blood Clots are excellent additions in a Cryptic Mission deck. >> Tereza Rostas > >Eeh. Certainly not my favorite Ravnos. Special is comepletely useless. Yeah, total tool of a special. I guess her special is only useful for the Setites who Temptation her? But overall, she's not an entire waste. I have seen a scary Ravnos Potence deck before... >> maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites > >Kemintiri rocks. None of the Setites are really very poor. > Yeah. How can you go wrong with Keminitiri? Awesome pic! Once again, I have to make the assertion that overall, the Setites have the best females! She did get some crap specials but she's still cool in my book... >> Quentin > >He's got all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior and cancels the votes >of other vampires! How can you go wrong? Sorry...but this guy rocks >the house in a !Ventrue vote deck. Dylan is probably the worst vampire >of this clan, but even he's usable. People have already commented on this already. How can you say Quentin's *bad*??? (Besides the crappy pic of course, but that's a problem endemic to all of the pansy-ass !Ventrue). >> Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere > >See Young-Sun above. Ayelea's awesome. Cardinal, good discipline-spread and a corner-case but useful special. Ayelea rules. She truly is the Queen of the Damned! =P >> Matteus > >See Bronwen above. Matteus is okay. I do have to admit he has one of the lamest specials in the game (the first one). The only thing it does is allow him to play War Party. Quick LSJ Question: #1. Can Matteus burn a blood to play a card that requires a Cardinal/Archbishop but that he would be able to play anyway (if Priscus also qualifies)? So can he burn blood to play a Bloodbath (which he would be able to play anyway)? #2. Is there a limit to how many times he can use that special? Could he use his special 5 times to be able to play a War Party? >> Mary the Black > >A 7 cap with all 3 in-clan disciplines, 2 at superior AND she has >built-in aggravated hand damage. She's wallpaper?!? What kind of crack >are you smoking? > Mary's the scariest Baali. I often dont' block her even when she's using Presence bleeds! Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > Quick LSJ Question: #1. Can Matteus burn a blood to play a card that requires a > Cardinal/Archbishop but that he would be able to play anyway (if Priscus also > qualifies)? So can he burn blood to play a Bloodbath (which he would be able to > play anyway)? #2. Is there a limit to how many times he can use that special? > Could he use his special 5 times to be able to play a War Party? Yes. So Yes. Yes: Once per card (due to the "to play" construction). No. [ quoted text not captured ]

>*grin* But yeah, Anton is not wallpaper. I think Violet Tremain is the >closest thing to a wallpaper Tzimisce. She has a cool special, and you >*can* make a deck based on it, but a) I still haven't seen one that actually >works, and b) most Tzimisce decks just really have no use for her. She's >the only vampire with dom/pre/tha (besides Uncle Ian), if that means >anything... ? Lots of vampires have dom/pre/tha (10 others plus Uncle Ian). Do you mean dom/pre/tha/vic? Halcyan 2

"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:a57k1c$r54$1...@neon.noos.net... > erm... gargoyle slave *ally* cannot use ranged weapons. I wonder why this > limitation though... "Neither the opposable thumbs nor the cranial capacity..." :) Xian

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:5wGd8.3737$vP.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net... > > "Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:7lqd7uk2dipveneqm...@4ax.com... [Radeyah] > > Has pre/pot/CEL and a built-in Rush, which is quite useful these days. > > > Umm... she has a built-in Settite-rush. Which is not that useful, even > these days. Please, a free Settite-rush is *not* worth 2 points. She has True, it's not that good. > Brujah disciplines, and so can go in a Brujah deck, but cannot play Brujah > cards (although there aren't very many good ones) in addition to being However, she fits pretty well into a Brujah bruise & bleed deck, especially if you're using Aire of Elation. It makes her better. :) [Lithrac] > > OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan, having > > nut-munchers around is always nice. I can't believe Derek used the phrase "nut-muncher". > Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that fearful > without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn with > some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't > acceptable for a 6 cap. True. I think the jury's still out on him. I haven't made a Samedi deck yet, but I'm going to get around to it "real soon now (tm)". (Read as: as soon as the storyline stuff is over.) > Doing agg damage is all fine and good, but with no way to prevent > S:CE/dodge/prevention, what's the point? Are you saying no one even uses > combat defense around you? It's one thing for the Lasombra to use Coma... > you don't really expect much beatdown from Lasombra (even though they have > Potence). You can't really expect anything *else* from Samedi. Guh? Man, I use the Lasombra with potence all the time. Talley is my all-time favorite Lasombra. Of course, this (using Lasombra with potence) could be due to personal (rush) bias, but still. I'm still not sure what to expect out of the Samedi, having seen "The Combo" go. Xian

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020223071324...@mb-fo.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I have no idea what I meant. I think it was an ELDB search gone horribly awry (like maybe I still had Tzimisce checked when I did the search). I should have *known* that other vamps had those disciplines. Brain fart. Forget I said anything.

Chris Berger wrote: >>>Radeyah > Umm... she has a built-in Settite-rush. Which is not that useful, even > these days. Please, a free Settite-rush is *not* worth 2 points. That depends on your play group. Dave (Raille) doesn't play anything but Setites, so the rush is *quite* useful in these parts. >>>Lithrac > Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that fearful > without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn with > some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't > acceptable for a 6 cap. ?!? Is it me, or are the lot of you smoking crack this week? First off Lithrac is a 5 cap, not a 6. For a 5 cap, he's great. He has 3 in-clan disciplines and 2 useful specials. As for Jack Dawson....what "other good stuff"?!? He's an 8 cap with 4 in-clan disciplines, two of which are not at superior. In fact, the most important two. As for his special, when he comes out of the uncontrolled region, I can put a single piece of equipment on him for regular cost? Oh wow, hold me back. I can barely contain my excitement. >>>Mary the Black > Basically, the agg hand damage just isn't enough to make up for being > Infernal. Given everything that Baali bring to the table, being Infernal isn't that big of a deal. Actually, I don't mind it at all. It's a good kick in the ass to remind you that you better go after the VPs at all cost. Case in point, I built a Baali deck (10 Baali, 2 Setites) that has swept the table 50% of the time that I've played it. Remember boys and girls, Infernal + Social Charm/Sense the Sin = free for you, not cheap for them. That agg hand damage backing up big bleeds is mighty rough to deal with. > Bajazet can make his hand damage aggravated, but his clan is a > combat clan and his one extra capacity is a small price to pay compared to > Infernal. Whatever. Like the Assamites can handle S:CE any better. If Bajazet can't rush into combat that agg damage won't do you any good. It's not like the Assamites can bleed for shit. Regards, Noal

>> erm... gargoyle slave *ally* cannot use ranged weapons. I wonder why this >> limitation though... > >"Neither the opposable thumbs nor the cranial capacity..." Yet somehow the Hell Hound has both of these...? Halcyan 2

e...@boursorama.com (Emmanuel Martin) wrote in message news:<10c2c156.02022...@posting.google.com>... Well, as a few objections were raised as I accused some minions of wallpaperness. So I am back, with a few charges about why I accuse some minions. First of all, I must say that I consider wallpaperness only relative to "Vtes now", and that a vampire that used to be acceptable but have been replaced by far more powerfull ones are to be considered wallpaper (do you hear me Tura). Second I consider wallpaperness in term of playability in efficient deck (a definition of an efficient tournament deck being : a deck that has good chances of making at least four VPs in a tournament). This means that, though interesting, considerations relative to points are only marginaly pertinent to save a vampire from wallpaperness. Having all in-clans at superior can often be "not enough", especially for big vamps. Having many points of disciplines can often be useless i those disciplines don't match together, or can't be the center of a deck as the vamp is the only one to posess a certain combination of diciplines. As oppoed to it, a vamp with very few points of disciplines (say Nakova) whose disciplines match well, and who is sometimes(yesterday at Praxis Seizure Paris for exemple) in tournaments, is still correct. > Cammie All stars, foreach clan > > Appolonius Well very few doubts on this guy. Some may have played him at the ancient "Jyhad only" times because of his +1 bleed. Other people interested in his diciplines combination should look at the rarely seen Gwendolyn. > Wilhelm Waldburg Well, I must admit that I wasn't aware of his mix with the daughter's. My opinion was that : * Ventrue have three cheaper princes with in-clan disciplines * he doesn't have a usefull special * his out of clans disciplines are pretty useless (not by their own, but they bring nothing usefull to the ventrue disciplines) * though a little more expensive, Arika and Queen Anne are wonderfully superior, as obf is THE disciplines standard Ventrue politicall deck lack, and they both have bleed bonus. * unless you wory that much about for PRE being worst than FOR PRE (for is enough in most cases to survive long enough for immortal grapple to vanish), Democritus, with +1 bleed, one more vote and a decent special is better in all angles. So if you want THESE disciplines, even for the daughter's, put up to four Democritus (latinists may say up to four Democriti). * No, I don't think any deck based on having both Democritus and Wilhelm can be MORE efficient than a deck based on either the cheap ventrue princes or Arika + Queen Anne. > Lazarus Lazarus is simply too expensive for his disciplines and his special. Give me the example of a tournament viable deck (not a deck that wins tournaments, but a deck that has good chances of making at least four VPs in three games). His special, not powerfull enough to base a strategy upon, is just a week bonus. I think of Ulugh Beg as being far better. In fact, my complaint is that he is just too expensive, with no interseting specials. > Tura Vaughn First, I made a mistake, I should have put a Gangrel instead of her. Say Quinton Mc Donell ? But only Appolonius save her from being nominated. She's weak for Euro Brujah : Donnal O'Conor, Constanza Vinti, Anvil, Theo, Volker, Sela, Lizette Visquel, Jimmy Dunn, Agatha, Hugo, Chas, ... seem me far better than her. > Judah A deck based on his disiplines ould be interesting, theproblem being that he just doesn't posess them. One superior, two inferiors, no special for six is not enough. Just give me the example of an efficient deck using him. > Damaskenos, herald of Leandro Nothing more than what Chris Berger said > Radeyah Nothing more than what Chris Berger said > > Independant All stars > > Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried) I think she's just too expensive, has little stealth for the war ghoul loop. But maybe the deck works ? > Tereza Rostas No special, only ani. I am definitely not convinced by her. > maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites Well, a standard Sethit deck using her, great books of THA (from final nights) and Rutor's Hand may be interesting. In fact, I laked a Sethite to nominate. Maybe Khalil Anvari, as : * he has nbo stealth, for a sethite deck * he brings nothing new to presence weenie decks > Husamettin Well, I found him too expensive. But after all, why not. I could have more luck (maybe more flames too) with Ur-Shulgi. > > Sabbat All Stars > > Quentin I had to nominate someaone. Ok, I mistook, Quentin is usefull in some vote decks. So let's say Gerard. > Caitlin (errated version) Yes she has LOTS of disciplines for her capacity, even reprinted. But it is hard to find someone to go with her, and I just can't figure how to use her efficiently. > Yong-Sun, Harmonist No , I insist, he is WALLPAPER. First, if your cards are sorted, you may notice that Cailean exists. ! Nosfe are the guys who get the most disciplines for their capacity, so his three in clans at superior do not weight much. an dI think that adding THA brings nothing usefull, and that he isn't usefull in any efficient deck. > Ramiro ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Lasombra I think Ignacio is better. But the embrace/ shadow twins deck is very good. > Bronwen Yes, I insist she IS wallpaper. Her thrre in-clans aren't enoiugh for a ten cap, and I consider that, though presence is a great dicipline, and though cambat ends are a major concern for !Brujah decks, dey don't NEED combat ends. Presence brings nothing to a bruise and bruise deck, and she's just too big for bruise and bleed. She really has nothing that rocks. > Hannibal Coma sends to torpor without Blood loss, can't be played under grapple, can't be prevented. So I considr that it is about equal to inferior version of Burning Wrath or Death of My conscience. Hannibal Can't play traditions. Needless to say I am suggesting you to compare him with Villon. > Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere Show me an efficent deck based on Aylea. I must adimt she has good disciplines, a decent special. The problem is that I can't see anyone to go with her and make an eficient deck. > Matteus Two options with him * use VIC : the problem is that there is noone to go with him * don't use VIC. Just look at Cammie hich capacity Toreadors. > Anton ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Tzimisce I am not very Keen on him. I think Violet may play Weather Control Bloodform, that's why I chose not to nominate her. I think he's just a "Second zone" vampire, worse that the other Tzimisce. > Rex, the Necronomist No comments. He has three combat disciplines. > > Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort > Lithrac thn (inferior thanatosis) seems me useless. The only card that is worth playing Samedi is superior withering, which looks like old thougthts betrayed. OBF isn't that neede, obf is enough in most cases. for is correct. But I think he just hasn't got enough stuff, especially while compare dto George Frederick. Jack Dawson made appreciable effort too. > Mary the Black Infernal sucks, so an infernal minion has to be a real ass kicker to compensate for this. I just can't figure a strategy that gets the best out of her. Show me the deck. Of course, thes opinions are subjective Emmanuel

In message <10c2c156.02022...@posting.google.com>, Emmanuel Martin <e...@boursorama.com> writes: >> Bronwen >Yes, I insist she IS wallpaper. Her thrre in-clans aren't enoiugh for >a ten cap, and I consider that, though presence is a great dicipline, >and though cambat ends are a major concern for !Brujah decks, dey >don't NEED combat ends. Presence brings nothing to a bruise and bruise >deck, and she's just too big for bruise and bleed. She really has >nothing that rocks. I think this is where you fall down - as on a number of similar points. The trick is not to find vampires "that rock". The trick is to find useful vampires. There are many stalwart, useful vampires out there who are nothing special to look at but who can be very useful, played properly. A few vampires are, of course, above the power curve. Simply because someone is not significantly above it does not make them wallpaper. I am, however, perplexed by the bizarreness of "Presence brings nothing to a bruise and bleed deck" - much as I was perplexed by your dismissal of Democritus' for/PRE over Wilhelm's FOR/PRE. Skin of Steel etc. to deal with additional strikes can be game changing situations. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Judah > A deck based on his disiplines ould be interesting, theproblem being > that he just doesn't posess them. One superior, two inferiors, no > special for six is not enough. Just give me the example of an > efficient deck using him. Bruise and bleed nosferatu deck using judah made it to the finals yesterday in storyline Helsinki... I have no details of the deck, but I got ousted by Judah.

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:LWaWuIIu...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <10c2c156.02022...@posting.google.com>, Emmanuel > Martin <e...@boursorama.com> writes: > >> Bronwen > >Yes, I insist she IS wallpaper. Her thrre in-clans aren't enoiugh for > >a ten cap, and I consider that, though presence is a great dicipline, > >and though cambat ends are a major concern for !Brujah decks, dey > >don't NEED combat ends. Presence brings nothing to a bruise and bruise > >deck, and she's just too big for bruise and bleed. She really has > >nothing that rocks. (snip) > I am, however, perplexed by the bizarreness of "Presence brings nothing > to a bruise and bleed deck" - yes... It's nonsense... I'm quite happy to bleed for 6 with Sela when i torporized my prey's last vampire. Besides this i don't like when people criticize vampires they *never* tried to play in the first place. > much as I was perplexed by your dismissal > of Democritus' for/PRE over Wilhelm's FOR/PRE. Skin of Steel etc. to > deal with additional strikes can be game changing situations. This week end i discovered that outferior Infection is equivalent to Superior Skin of Steel for the cost of Two blood. But i chose not to pack some in my deck. As a result of this decision, my Sheldon was hit by 3 sewer lids in a given round of combat, and i could only play inferior skin of steel. Next time i play inferior fortitude, i'll pack infections to avoid this blur-o-mania. reyda

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:5wGd8.3737$vP.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net... > > >Judah > > > > Bleed for 1, Conditioning. If blocked: > > > > Drawing out the Beast, Torn Signpost, IG, Undead Strength, Taste. > > > For the Shane/Judah deck, eh? Heh... I'd like to see it work, actually. If > I had a few more of those two, I'd do it in a heartbeat (probably need about > 3 of each. Probably need about 3-4 Don Cruez's for 5th Traditions, because > all the other vampires to use are huge, and you'll need to Minion Tap like a > mofo. Shane. Judah. Marty. You can add the Giovanni antivote bozo.Throw in minion taps and taste of vitae because there will be some street fight. and maybe Mind rapes... (snip) > > >Radeyah > > > > Has pre/pot/CEL and a built-in Rush, which is quite useful these days. > > > Umm... she has a built-in Settite-rush. Which is not that useful, even > these days. Please, a free Settite-rush is *not* worth 2 points. She has > Brujah disciplines, and so can go in a Brujah deck, but cannot play Brujah > cards (although there aren't very many good ones) in addition to being > overcosted. Rigby is essentially the same, but is 1 capacity smaller and > has PRE. Bianca is the same as her but has +1 str instead of the > practically useless rush. granted. > > >Matteus > > > > Can play Enhanced Senses, Sideslip, Blur, Fleshcraft, Majesty superior. > > > And he would want to do that because??? Who in the world is going to play > an aus/cel/pre/vic deck??? me. > He's the only one with all four disciplines. > I'd rather play Cat's Guidance instead of Majesty anyway. And almost > anything instead of Fleshcraft. then play Aura reading (just to be sure), Horrid form x 2, blur. You can add superior Chiropteran to vaporize your unlucky opponents... > > >Anton ? > > > > No minion with inherent +1 intercept is EVER wallpaper. > > > How about this minion: > > Big Eyes > 10 capacity > Tremere > obf > Sabbat: +1 intercept mmm... are you making fun of us ? ;) > *grin* But yeah, Anton is not wallpaper. I think Violet Tremain is the > closest thing to a wallpaper Tzimisce. She has a cool special, and you > *can* make a deck based on it, but a) I still haven't seen one that actually > works, and b) most Tzimisce decks just really have no use for her. i thought about "Summoning" Warghouls and expandable retainers alike directly in my hands... >She's > the only vampire with dom/pre/tha (besides Uncle Ian), if that means > anything... Utterly false. There are currently 10 other vampires with those three disciplines. > > >Lithrac > > > > OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan, having > > nut-munchers around is always nice. > > > Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that fearful > without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn with > some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't > acceptable for a 6 cap. 5 cap. Again, can play hidden lurker, rush at stealth, play disguised weapon or 2 aggravated with inferior thanatosis. Definetly no crap. > Doing agg damage is all fine and good, but with no way to prevent > S:CE/dodge/prevention, what's the point? Are you saying no one even uses > combat defense around you? It's one thing for the Lasombra to use Coma... > you don't really expect much beatdown from Lasombra (even though they have > Potence). You can't really expect anything *else* from Samedi. I do think than hidden lurker or Danw operation are sufficient threats to make you *not* block the samedi. > > >Mary the Black > > > > Trap, Fear the Void Below, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid... > > > > If you maneuver back to close, burn a blood and poke for 1 agg. > > > Basically, the agg hand damage just isn't enough to make up for being > Infernal. Bajazet can make his hand damage aggravated, but his clan is a > combat clan and his one extra capacity is a small price to pay compared to > Infernal. Marry is still an excellent vampire. Her agg hand damage is kind of a backup power which can make your opponent hesitate. Don't forget that mary's discipline allow her to bleed for 5 or play intercept, which bajazet cannot do = More interaction with other vampire.

Noal McDonald wrote: > > Chris Berger wrote: > > >>>Radeyah > > Umm... she has a built-in Settite-rush. Which is not that useful, even > > these days. Please, a free Settite-rush is *not* worth 2 points. > > That depends on your play group. Dave (Raille) doesn't play anything but > Setites, so the rush is *quite* useful in these parts. > Hey! I resemble that remark. However I DO occasionally dust off the other 10000 cards or so and put together something odd. Raille

Emmanuel Martin wrote: > > > > Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort > > Lithrac > thn (inferior thanatosis) seems me useless. The only card that is > worth playing Samedi is superior withering, which looks like old > thougthts betrayed. OBF isn't that neede, obf is enough in most cases. > for is correct. But I think he just hasn't got enough stuff, > especially while compare dto George Frederick. > Jack Dawson made appreciable effort too. Was just talking about this card this weekend. If any acting THAN vampire plays Withering before the opposing minions strike, does the restrictions automatically kick in and limit the return strike to something non discipline based? Raille

Raille <rai...@spamcop.net> wrote in news:3C7A8028...@spamcop.net: > If any acting THAN vampire plays Withering before the opposing minions > strike, does the restrictions automatically kick in and limit the return > strike to something non discipline based? No, since the opposing minion still gets to play his strike before any strikes resolve (even with First Strike). Flux

"Raille" <rai...@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:3C7A8028...@spamcop.net... > > Was just talking about this card this weekend. > > If any acting THAN vampire plays Withering before the opposing minions > strike, does the restrictions automatically kick in and limit the return > strike to something non discipline based? > No. The restriction doesn't kick in until strikes resolve. The reason they can't prevent is because damage is dealt with *after* strikes resolve.

"Raille" <rai...@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:3C7A8028...@spamcop.net... > > Was just talking about this card this weekend. > > If any acting THAN vampire plays Withering before the opposing minions > strike, does the restrictions automatically kick in and limit the return > strike to something non discipline based? > [ quoted text not captured ]

"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:a5d7kf$qtd$1...@neon.noos.net... > > > > >Matteus > > > > > > Can play Enhanced Senses, Sideslip, Blur, Fleshcraft, Majesty superior. > > > > > And he would want to do that because??? Who in the world is going to play > > an aus/cel/pre/vic deck??? > > me. > That's because you're craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy... 8) > > He's the only one with all four disciplines. > > I'd rather play Cat's Guidance instead of Majesty anyway. And almost > > anything instead of Fleshcraft. > > then play Aura reading (just to be sure), Horrid form x 2, blur. You can add > superior Chiropteran to vaporize your unlucky opponents... > Well, okay, but I'm just glad *I'm* not playing that deck. I'll stick with my Auspex/Settites and Presence/Assamites. That's about as much as I can stomach for odd discipline combos. > > Big Eyes > > 10 capacity > > Tremere > > obf > > Sabbat: +1 intercept > > mmm... are you making fun of us ? ;) > Of who? ;) Note that the vampire above would, of course, be drawn with a very Small Mouth. > > I think Violet Tremain is the > > closest thing to a wallpaper Tzimisce. She has a cool special, and you > > *can* make a deck based on it, but a) I still haven't seen one that > > works, and b) most Tzimisce decks just really have no use for her. > > i thought about "Summoning" Warghouls and expandable retainers alike > directly in my hands... > Yeah, could be. I dunno. She's not absolutely horribly, and she's definitely unique, which is why she's not wallpaper (as opposed to Radeyah, for whom there are a large number of replacements that are all better than her), but she's just very, very hard to use. In most people's collections she does nothing more than take up space. > >She's > > the only vampire with dom/pre/tha (besides Uncle Ian), if that means > > anything... > > Utterly false. There are currently 10 other vampires with those three > disciplines. > Yep. I already apologized for my unconscionable lack of vision. > > > >Lithrac > > > > > > OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan, having > > > nut-munchers around is always nice. > > > > > Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that fearful > > without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn with > > some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't > > acceptable for a 6 cap. > > 5 cap. Again, can play hidden lurker, rush at stealth, play disguised weapon > or 2 aggravated with inferior thanatosis. Definetly no crap. > Well, I didn't say he's useless or that he's wallpaper, just that I hate him. George Frederick can also play hidden lurker, rush at stealth, play disguised weapon or deal *3* aggravated damage, with the added advantage of not sucking... ;) You can't just list all the things a vampire can do and then say they don't suck (granted, I'm willing to admit that Lithrac might conceivably be useful in other people's decks, but it's gonna take a lot of convincing before I even think of putting him in one of my own... even if it's a mono-Samedi deck). Vampires don't exist in a vacuum. Vampires don't become wallpaper by an a priori examination of their abilities, but by comparison with other vampires. On a similar point, some vampires, and some cards, are only useful when they are played "in addition" to other better cards (i.e. you can have both Bianca and Radeyah out, but Bianca is better). Such cards may not be technically useless, but whenever it comes to a choice between the two (rather than both), you're always better off with the other one. If you were to build a deck with 8 anti-diablerie cards, you might consider 5 Deadliest Sin and 3 Eyes of the Dead (or even 6 and 2). If you played with 4 anti-diablerie cards, however, you'd almost certainly play either 3 and 1 or just with 4 Deadliest Sin. Deadliest Sin is just better (and is still seldom played). Considering the corner-case usefulness of such cards, Eyes of the Dead is just a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad card. > > > >Mary the Black > > > > > Basically, the agg hand damage just isn't enough to make up for being > > Infernal. Bajazet can make his hand damage aggravated, but his clan is a > > combat clan and his one extra capacity is a small price to pay compared to > > Infernal. > > Marry is still an excellent vampire. Her agg hand damage is kind of a backup > power which can make your opponent hesitate. Don't forget that mary's > discipline allow her to bleed for 5 or play intercept, which bajazet cannot > do = More interaction with other vampire. > Bajazet's disciplines allow him to bleed for 4, (and either one can do so at stealth). And he can prevent damage, which Mary cannot. He also has access to Clandestine Contract. I would consider them balanced with each other (discipline and capacity-wise) if Mary was not Infernal. I guess she's not all that bad, but I just can't get over her Infernalness. I really think that all of the Baali should have gotten really nice unique specials, which, unfortunately, most of them did not. Luckily Daimoinen is a pretty nice discipline (although no discipline is as amazing as Obeah... I'm still waiting to see the broken hordes of Salubri/!Tre... we'll see if it happens or not).

[ quoted text not captured ] What about if you used First strike? Then you force the opposition into a damage resolution, prior to them making a strike, thus the witherings effects should (as i see it) come into play. Raille

"Raille" <rai...@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:3C7ACD5B...@spamcop.net... [ quoted text not captured ] No. As Flux said, you choose your strike before *any* strikes resolve. So, certainly you can play whatever strike you want (assuming you could play it sans-Withering). I am about 90% sure that your strike will resolve as normal too, even after a First Strike Withering. I suppose it's possible that your strike would become invalid before it resolved, thus relegating you to no strike for the round. However, I don't believe this is the case, as Withering simply prevents you from *playing cards* that require disciplines. By the time it resolves, your card has already been played, so as I see it there is nothing preventing normal resolution. IANALSJ, but I believe that is the way he will rule it... LSJ, you following this thread?

Raille <rai...@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:<3C7ACD5B...@spamcop.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Yeah, but recall that Strike:Dodge, and Strike:Combat Ends resolve before a strike from First Strike goes off. So you can still play discipline cards in that initial stike phase. Cameron

> I *like* the idea of using the extra vampire to play a Temptation, but I'd > rather Cloak/Form of the Serpent than Mummify. On the other hand, it all > seems like a convoluted combo that wastes your master phase action anyway. > Not that it's bad... If you *do* happen to have that extra Serpentis skill, > then by all means, go for it... but otherwise, I tend to use the stolen > vamps to diablerize my own vampires, rescue my own vampires, or just > Heidelburg all but one blood and bleed with them. I'm not gonna pack my > deck full of Serpentis skills and Mummify. And I doubt you are either. Whoa! I love the Temptation-Heidelberg combo, but I would think you are better off bleeding and then taking ALL their blood with the castle. That way, if the vampire gets axed, your predator loses a vampire. And if it doesn't, your predator will have to hunt with it, and then you take it straight back again. Your way, if the vampire is not blocked, the vampire has a chance to play restoration, Cryptic Mission, Fifth itself, hunt or whatever, to keep you from nabbing control again (for a while).

"Hollowboy" <icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:614f2a39.02022...@posting.google.com... > > I tend to use the stolen > > vamps to diablerize my own vampires, rescue my own vampires, or just > > Heidelburg all but one blood and bleed with them. > > Whoa! > > I love the Temptation-Heidelberg combo, but I would think you are > better off bleeding and then taking ALL their blood with the castle. > True. I forgot. ;) Although it does suck if they get blocked and lose all their blood and you never get to take it. I guess you just have to judge whether or not that's likely to happen. But using your predator's vamp to rescue the poor Settite he just torporized is priceless. "I'm sorry, Celine... I don't know what I was thinking. Can we be friends?" "Sure, but only if my pal Khalil can have your Sport Bike."

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:Yjwe8.555$Dv1.3318@rwcrnsc53... > > "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:a5d7kf$qtd$1...@neon.noos.net... > > > > > > >Matteus > > > > > > > > Can play Enhanced Senses, Sideslip, Blur, Fleshcraft, Majesty superior. > > > > > > > And he would want to do that because??? Who in the world is going to play > > > an aus/cel/pre/vic deck??? > > > > me. > > > That's because you're craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy... 8) maybe i am =) > > > He's the only one with all four disciplines. > > > I'd rather play Cat's Guidance instead of Majesty anyway. And almost > > > anything instead of Fleshcraft. > > > > then play Aura reading (just to be sure), Horrid form x 2, blur. You can add > > superior Chiropteran to vaporize your unlucky opponents... > > > Well, okay, but I'm just glad *I'm* not playing that deck. I'll stick with my > Auspex/Settites and Presence/Assamites. That's about as much as I can stomach for > odd discipline combos. Auspex setite is very nice =) i neer tried it yet !! hey, i'll go and build a Setite auspex deck if you promise me you'll try the very vicious Setite Protean deck ;) I tried Presence Assamite, and it's quite interesting, but i prefer the much offensive Assamite Potence angle =) > > > Big Eyes > > > 10 capacity > > > Tremere > > > obf > > > Sabbat: +1 intercept > > > > mmm... are you making fun of us ? ;) > > > Of who? ;) > > Note that the vampire above would, of course, be drawn with a very Small Mouth. =) > > > I think Violet Tremain is the > > > closest thing to a wallpaper Tzimisce. She has a cool special, and you > > > *can* make a deck based on it, but a) I still haven't seen one that > > > works, and b) most Tzimisce decks just really have no use for her. > > > > i thought about "Summoning" Warghouls and expandable retainers alike > > directly in my hands... > > > Yeah, could be. I dunno. She's not absolutely horribly, and she's definitely > unique, which is why she's not wallpaper (as opposed to Radeyah, for whom there are a > large number of replacements that are all better than her), but she's just very, very > hard to use. In most people's collections she does nothing more than take up space. true. She's unique, even if she's a bit overcosted. At 4 pool, i would play her in a lot of decks just for the fun =) (snip) > > > > >Lithrac > > > > > > > > OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan, having > > > > nut-munchers around is always nice. > > > > > > > Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that fearful > > > without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn with > > > some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't > > > acceptable for a 6 cap. > > > > 5 cap. Again, can play hidden lurker, rush at stealth, play disguised weapon > > or 2 aggravated with inferior thanatosis. Definetly no crap. > > > Well, I didn't say he's useless or that he's wallpaper, just that I hate him. George > Frederick can also play hidden lurker, rush at stealth, play disguised weapon or deal > *3* aggravated damage, with the added advantage of not sucking... ;) I understand that you prefer George =) he's a solid vampire ! but i don't pack vote defense these days and i can tell you that 2 votes for you makes better chances you'll play that amaranth ;) > You can't just list all the things a vampire can do and then say they don't suck > (granted, I'm willing to admit that Lithrac might conceivably be useful in other > people's decks, but it's gonna take a lot of convincing before I even think of > putting him in one of my own... even if it's a mono-Samedi deck). Vampires don't > exist in a vacuum. Vampires don't become wallpaper by an a priori examination of > their abilities, but by comparison with other vampires. your theory is interesting. > On a similar point, some vampires, and some cards, are only useful when they are > played "in addition" to other better cards (i.e. you can have both Bianca and Radeyah > out, but Bianca is better). this is true =) That's why it's sometime difficult to find nice "backup vampires" for the "champion" of your deck ! > Such cards may not be technically useless, but whenever > it comes to a choice between the two (rather than both), you're always better off > with the other one. If you were to build a deck with 8 anti-diablerie cards, you > might consider 5 Deadliest Sin and 3 Eyes of the Dead (or even 6 and 2). If you > played with 4 anti-diablerie cards, however, you'd almost certainly play either 3 and > 1 or just with 4 Deadliest Sin. Deadliest Sin is just better (and is still seldom > played). Considering the corner-case usefulness of such cards, Eyes of the Dead is > just a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad card. very true =) > > > > >Mary the Black > > > > > > > Basically, the agg hand damage just isn't enough to make up for being > > > Infernal. Bajazet can make his hand damage aggravated, but his clan is a > > > combat clan and his one extra capacity is a small price to pay compared to > > > Infernal. > > > > Marry is still an excellent vampire. Her agg hand damage is kind of a backup > > power which can make your opponent hesitate. Don't forget that mary's > > discipline allow her to bleed for 5 or play intercept, which bajazet cannot > > do = More interaction with other vampire. > > > Bajazet's disciplines allow him to bleed for 4, (and either one can do so at > stealth). And he can prevent damage, which Mary cannot. He also has access to > Clandestine Contract. on the other hand, Mary can still dodge or Immortal grapple, and has access to a large array of condemnations (Doomed is my favorite) > I would consider them balanced with each other (discipline and > capacity-wise) if Mary was not Infernal. I guess she's not all that bad, but I just > can't get over her Infernalness. i know it's a nightmare for a lot of players =) > I really think that all of the Baali should have > gotten really nice unique specials, which, unfortunately, most of them did not. > Luckily Daimoinen is a pretty nice discipline (although no discipline is as amazing > as Obeah... I'm still waiting to see the broken hordes of Salubri/!Tre... we'll see > if it happens or not). i'm working of this =) reyda

In message <614f2a39.02022...@posting.google.com>, icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com (Hollowboy) mumbled something about: >> I *like* the idea of using the extra vampire to play a Temptation, but I'd >> rather Cloak/Form of the Serpent than Mummify. On the other hand, it all >> seems like a convoluted combo that wastes your master phase action anyway. >> Not that it's bad... If you *do* happen to have that extra Serpentis skill, >> then by all means, go for it... but otherwise, I tend to use the stolen >> vamps to diablerize my own vampires, rescue my own vampires, or just >> Heidelburg all but one blood and bleed with them. I'm not gonna pack my >> deck full of Serpentis skills and Mummify. And I doubt you are either. > >Whoa! > >I love the Temptation-Heidelberg combo, but I would think you are >better off bleeding and then taking ALL their blood with the castle. Most likely result: bleed for 1, get blocked, strike-hands for 1, you end up with the same amount of blood yanked off with Heidelburg anyway. >That way, if the vampire gets axed, your predator loses a vampire. And Your prey isn't going to kill your predator's vampire. >if it doesn't, your predator will have to hunt with it, and then you >take it straight back again. Or, play Temptation and Mummify. Then rescue the untapped minion with someone else's Tempted vampire (forcing the Mummified minion to pay for it), and NOW bleed. Almost as good as Heidelberg at blood removal, since you can only use Heidelberg once per turn. =) >Your way, if the vampire is not blocked, the vampire has a chance to >play restoration, Cryptic Mission, Fifth itself, hunt or whatever, to >keep you from nabbing control again (for a while). Sure, that's fine. Eventually everyone will be Tempted anyway, so why? -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

> >> Independant All stars > >> > >> Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried) > > > >I've been giving thought to a Quietus/Thaumaturgy deck that does a lot > >of pre-range damage. She may work there. Still only a theory, though. > > Qui/Tha can be pretty nasty. Foul Blood + Blood Clots are excellent additions > in a Cryptic Mission deck. > > >> Tereza Rostas > > > >Eeh. Certainly not my favorite Ravnos. Special is comepletely useless. > > Yeah, total tool of a special. I guess her special is only useful for the > Setites who Temptation her? But overall, she's not an entire waste. I have seen > a scary Ravnos Potence deck before... > My two cents: if you are building a deck that uses Illusions of the Kindred HEAVILY, then her large capacity and her potence is very very good. You can make an illusion of Tereza (even at inferior), and Tereza can make a mess of the opposing vampire with Immortal Grapple + Burning Wrath + Amaranth, which is not too complicated a combo. Vaclav is a 6-cap ravnos with potence, but he can't complete the combo if he gets fetched with an inferior Illusion (he pays all 3 of his blood for BW, gets punched for 1, can't play the Amaranth), so Tereza is actually better. Alao, if the plan is to deplete the vampire by playing multiple Illusions, and then play Golconda and start over, Tereza again comes out way ahead of Vaclav. I am trading for a deck which works along these lines, but I am going to complicate it with Stupid Francois Tricks, and maybe a bit of Necromancy too :)