Official VEKN Kiasyd Newsletter for July 2004

OFFICIAL VEKN KIASYD NEWSLETTER VOL II ISSUE III JULY 2004 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. EDITORIAL I am writing this after a month break and the Origins Convention in Columbus, Ohio, USA. It was my first convention and I had so much fun. I met a lot of new people, who were not only quality players, but also quality people. I am never suprised by how great it is to be a part of this game. Having purchased very little Gehenna before the tournament, I felt slightly behind the curve with respect to the new "tech." Combat seemed to be a big theme in the post-Gehenna world, changing my expectations of the typical tournament environment. Since this newsletter marks the review of the last Kiasyd in the clan, next month we will start looking at vampires that work well with the Kiasyd. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. VAMPIRE OF THE MONTH Beatrice L'Angou [BL:U2] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Kiasyd Group: 2 Capacity: 5 Discipline: aus dom nec MYT Sabbat: Cold iron vulnerability. Beatrice is a solid 5-capacity vampire for the clan, but she lacks Obtenebration, which limits what we can do with her. As the smallest Kiasyd, Beatrice will work well in many decks. Her superior Mytherceria allows you to use some of the best cards in the game at the superior level. She can Folderol any methuselah and is a great aid to wall type decks, since she can use her Auspex to block. As a clanmate, she is weakened by her lack of Obtenebration and I have often replaced her in stealth-bleed decks for 4- and 5-capacity Lasombra. Her weakness as a Kiasyd is her mismatched discipline spread. She works really well with Bartholomew and together the two of them can form some interesting decks. Her Necromancy, likes Bartholomew's, is quite interesting to me. The vampires work well with Necrospex decks and Mytherceria adds new dimensions to that strategy. All in all, Beatrice is a support vampire and not a star. She will find more use outside of her clan than within. Next month: Talley, The Hound -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. CARD OF THE MONTH The Grandest Trick [BL:R2] Cardtype: Action Modifier Clan: Kiasyd Cost: 2 blood Burn Option Only usable when an action is announced. Vampires cannot block this action. This acting vampire is treated as a mortal ally for the duration of the action (cannot spend or burn blood, cannot use Disciplines, will burn if reduced to 0 life, etc.). This vampire's blood represents his or her life while he or she is an ally. Only usable on an action that doesn't cost blood or require a vampire, clan or Discipline. Well, I posed the question last month of whether The Grandest Trick is useful or useless. I think the answer is Yes. The Grandest Trick can be thrown into any Kiasyd deck; an virtually unstoppable bleed of one can sometimes be enough. To take full advantage of the Grandest Trick, you need to make a deck that focuses on what it can do for you. So, let's review what basic actions you can and cannot use Trick for. Bleed: Yes. Hunt: No. Equip: Maybe. Employ Retainer: Maybe. Recruit Ally: Maybe. Action Card: Maybe. Political Action: No. Leave Torpor: No. Diablerie: No. Become Anarch: No. The obvious first choice for any Grandest Trick action is bleeding. Most retainers and equipment that aid in bleeding are able to be performed while using the Grandest Trick. This months deck features the Grandest Trick in this fasion. Adding the Trick to any Kiasyd deck is not a bad idea. There is almost always action that you would not like to be blocked, if this action is default +1 stealth most allies wouldn't be able to stop you. Grandest Trick out a Mylan Horseed or Tasha Morgan. The trick of the Trick. The is an interesting timing window with the Grandest Trick. It is played as the action is announced, but other cards may also be played during the announcement phase. As the controller of the acting minion, you may order these modifiers in any way you see fit. This allows you to play an action modifier that requires a vampire, clan, or discipline as long as it is played when the action is announced and before you play the Grandest Trick. Most of these as-announced modifiers will be useless to us, since they duplicate in some way what Grandest Trick is doing. Seduction is a limited version of Grandest Trick, so there is no reason to double up, using both Seduction and Grandest Trick on the same action. You, of course, might want to do this anyway to cycle cards, but typically you would not combine the two modifiers. Let's take a look at a few modifiers that might be more interesting and useful when combined with the Grandest Trick. 1) Approximation of Loyalty: The inferior version can keep an ally from blocking. This helps eliminate an ally blocker. No Kiasyd have Presence, which is a negative, but only inferior is needed so one skill card can turn a Kiasyd into a nigh-unstoppable machine. 2) The Art of Memory: This requires a Black Hand vampire. Being Sabbat, any Kiasyd can become Black Hand via Blooding. Now, you can use The Art of Memory to regain your Grandest Trick and do it all over again with another Kiasyd. 3) Creepshow Casino: Most likely allies will not be blocking undirected actions, but with The Unmasking it is not out of the question. Using the Creepshow Casino to give another stealth to these undirected action will keep all but the most dedicated allies away. 4) Deed the Heart's Desire: Wow. Keep an opposing vampire from bouncing. Now all we need is a vampire with superior Quietus. Unlike Approximation of Loyalty, this card will never be combined with Grandest Trick. 5) Shroud Mastery: Bartholomew can recruit a Masquer or employ a Puppeteer and then untap. 6) The Sleeping Mind: The inferior is cyclable like Seduction. The superior can keep those vampires with Dominate or superior Auspex tapped, requiring your opponent to have both a wake-up and bounce. I think this combination could be very useful. 7) Stealth Ritus: Gain stealth on a bleed to get by Jake Washington or some other ally. Gives you the added bump to strike home with a bleed. After some careful review of The Grandest Trick, I think it is definitely worth its weight. I plan on including it in more of my Kiasyd decks as well. Next month: Riddle Phantastique -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. DECK OF THE MONTH This month's deck will focus on Beatrice and Bartholomew and The Grandest Trick. This deck is a slow building deck. Keep Bartholomew untapped for pool gain and Folderol. Use Beatrice for Folderol or equipping/recruiting. Use the other vampires to recruit/equip. Heidelburg goodies around. Use Revelations for responsibility and The Grandest Trick for bleeds. Deck Name: It's Tricky to Rock a Rhyme Created By: Karl George Schaefer Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 12, Max: 29, Avg: 4.92) ---------------------------------------------- 3 Bartholomew AUS dom MYT NEC obt 8, Kiasyd:2 3 Beatrice L'Angou aus dom MYT nec 5, Kiasyd:2 2 Roger Farnsworth aus OBF 4, Malkavian antitribu:3 2 Mariano Pomposo aus cel pot 4, Brujah antitribu:3 2 Piotr Andreikov aus 2, Tzimisce:3 Library: (79 cards) ------------------- Master (16 cards) 2 Auspex 4 Blood Doll 2 Chanjelin Ward 1 Creepshow Casino 2 Effective Management 2 Heidelberg Castle, Germany 2 Perfectionist 1 Weeping Stone Action (20 cards) 4 Blooding 6 Computer Hacking 4 Reunion Kamut 6 Revelations Action Modifier (14 cards) 4 Art of Memory, The 6 Grandest Trick, The 4 Stealth Ritus Reaction (18 cards) 8 Folderol 6 Telepathic Misdirection 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness Ally (1 cards) 1 Mylan Horseed (Goblin) Retainer (2 cards) 1 J. S. Simmons, Esq. 1 Tasha Morgan Equipment (8 cards) 1 Blood Tears of Kephran 6 Laptop Computer 1 Palatial Estate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. SIGN OFF Thanks for reading. The next newsletter will be in September. Karl Schaefer ksch...@alumni.nd.edu

Karl Schaefer wrote: > I am writing this after a month break and the Origins Convention in > Columbus, Ohio, USA. It was my first convention and I had so much fun. I > met a lot of new people, who were not only quality players, but also > quality people. I am never suprised by how great it is to be a part of > this game. It was great playing with you at Origins--that Saturday night game was hysterical. Sadly, that Muaziz/Ublo-Satha deck is yet to fare as well locally, but it is still pretty funny to play. And fine newsletter. Especially when you rock a rhyme that's right on time. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "Mr. President, ask not what your rest home can do for you. Ask what you can do for your rest home." -Elvis

Picking a few nits > 4) Deed the Heart's Desire: Wow. Keep an opposing vampire from bouncing. > Now all we need is a vampire with superior Quietus. Unlike Approximation > of Loyalty, this card will never be combined with Grandest Trick. > Qadir Ul-ghani, perhaps? He would also enjoy Riddling people's Phatastique with his Obf-stealth. He also has +1 bleed. > 6) The Sleeping Mind: The inferior is cyclable like Seduction. The > superior can keep those vampires with Dominate or superior Auspex tapped, > requiring your opponent to have both a wake-up and bounce. I think this > combination could be very useful. > Perfect Clarity would also work. And you'd probably only want to play it at basic.

Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote: > Qadir Ul-ghani, perhaps? He would also enjoy Riddling people's > Phatastique with his Obf-stealth. He also has +1 bleed. > Perfect Clarity would also work. And you'd probably only want to play it > at basic. Which, just to clarify, Qadir can also play. -- David Cherryholmes

k.sch...@icarnegie.com (Karl Schaefer) wrote in message news:<dc88950e.04072...@posting.google.com>... > OFFICIAL VEKN KIASYD NEWSLETTER VOL II ISSUE III JULY 2004 Interesting reading. You got my mind whirring on the (as-announced modifier) + The Grandest Trick angle. Thanks. > Let's take a look at a few modifiers that might be more interesting and > useful when combined with the Grandest Trick. > > 1) Approximation of Loyalty: The inferior version can keep an ally from > blocking. This helps eliminate an ally blocker. No Kiasyd have Presence, > which is a negative, but only inferior is needed so one skill card can > turn a Kiasyd into a nigh-unstoppable machine. > > 2) The Art of Memory: This requires a Black Hand vampire. Being Sabbat, > any Kiasyd can become Black Hand via Blooding. Now, you can use The Art > of Memory to regain your Grandest Trick and do it all over again with > another Kiasyd. > > 3) Creepshow Casino: Most likely allies will not be blocking undirected > actions, but with The Unmasking it is not out of the question. Using the > Creepshow Casino to give another stealth to these undirected action will > keep all but the most dedicated allies away. > > 4) Deed the Heart's Desire: Wow. Keep an opposing vampire from bouncing. > Now all we need is a vampire with superior Quietus. Qadir Al-Ghani would make an excellent Kiasyd. > > 5) Shroud Mastery: Bartholomew can recruit a Masquer or employ a Puppeteer > and then untap. Puppeteer and Masquer both require Necromancy, so the Grandest Trick cannot be played. Other thoughts: Many vampires have built-in actions that do not require a vampire or blood expenditure. They could clan impersonate to Kiasyd and take those actions, using the Grandest Trick to eliminate most blockers. Most enter-combat actions are usable with Grandest Trick. Rush someone unblockably, then tool them with permanents, or Flash Grenade them.

k.sch...@icarnegie.com (Karl Schaefer) wrote in message news:<dc88950e.04072...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] No Metro Underground in a Bartholomew deck??? If you choose to use it, it is basically free if you don't have to later tap Bart. It might be pulling your deck in two many directions, but The Watchtower that works like Metro Underground would be nice if you can upgrade one of your Black Hand to Seraph. > Action (20 cards) > 4 Blooding > 6 Computer Hacking > 4 Reunion Kamut > 6 Revelations > A The Grandest Trick bleed deck with enough Superior Auspex to support it and no Pulse of the Canaille??? You even have Mylan Horseed, so you can Pulse and bleed in the same turn. > Action Modifier (14 cards) > 4 Art of Memory, The > 6 Grandest Trick, The > 4 Stealth Ritus > > Reaction (18 cards) > 8 Folderol > 6 Telepathic Misdirection > 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness > If you are running Folderol, I would play Telepathic Counter over Telepathic Misdirection. Folderol and TC have more synergy and its easier to keep Bartholomew untapped when playing TC instead of TM. > Ally (1 cards) > 1 Mylan Horseed (Goblin) > > Retainer (2 cards) > 1 J. S. Simmons, Esq. > 1 Tasha Morgan > Maybe include that new retainer, Robert Carter? > Equipment (8 cards) > 1 Blood Tears of Kephran Is this mostly to protect from aggro-poke for one? I think you might be better off with a Leather Jacket, since Bartholomew can untap after equipping (and we all know how important it is to leave Bart untapped) > 6 Laptop Computer Feels like a bit too many, especially in a deck less than 90 cards. > 1 Palatial Estate > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > 5. SIGN OFF > > Thanks for reading. The next newsletter will be in September. > > Karl Schaefer > ksch...@alumni.nd.edu All in all, a good deck and a good article. Later, ~Rehlow

"Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:75bdf7ed.04072...@posting.google.com... > Puppeteer and Masquer both require Necromancy, so the Grandest Trick > cannot be played. Play Puppeteer and/or Masquer first ("as action is announced") before playing Grandest Trick ("as action is announced"). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:2mq3jsF...@uni-berlin.de... > "Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:75bdf7ed.04072...@posting.google.com... > > Puppeteer and Masquer both require Necromancy, so the Grandest Trick > > cannot be played. > > Play Puppeteer and/or Masquer first ("as action is announced") before > playing Grandest Trick ("as action is announced"). Scratch that, of course. Was thinking of the other cards he had mentioned (or something). [ quoted text not captured ]

>A The Grandest Trick bleed deck with enough Superior Auspex to support >it and no Pulse of the Canaille??? It was pointed out by someone not real long ago that the Pulse/Trick combo which people often thought of doesn't work based on Pulse's current card text. "This vampire has +2 bleed." It sure seems like cool ideas get watered down so much to prevent abuse as to make them nigh unplayable. With The Grandest Trick, I'm not sure what was so important in limiting it so given that Obt/Myt has stealth only inferior to Obfuscate - Kiasyd are already virtually unblockable.

Rehlow wrote: > All in all, a good deck and a good article. Please take a moment to trim your quotes. --Colin McGuigan

Curevei wrote: > It sure seems like cool ideas get watered down so much to prevent abuse as to > make them nigh unplayable. "I'll play Dominate" doesn't count as a cool idea? -- David Cherryholmes

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> a écrit dans le message de news:20040728130516...@mb-m26.aol.com... > >A The Grandest Trick bleed deck with enough Superior Auspex to support > >it and no Pulse of the Canaille??? > > It was pointed out by someone not real long ago that the Pulse/Trick combo > which people often thought of doesn't work based on Pulse's current card text. > "This vampire has +2 bleed." i wanted to do the same thing with robert carter, but alas he is also limited to vampires :( too much limitations for a card that already costs 2 blood... Flaming candle and concoction of vitality are waaaaay better ... maybe try a memory's of mortality + bum's rush & trap stuff ?? =D

>> It sure seems like cool ideas get watered down so much to prevent abuse as >to >> make them nigh unplayable. > >"I'll play Dominate" doesn't count as a cool idea? I'm tired of it [Dominate]. I tried avoiding it for a while, but, because I build so many decks around trying to make bad cards/concepts/strategies work well enough, avoiding it wasn't sustainable as "Dominate makes everything better". Of course, we've been through this. What is the solution to the problem that there are certain things in this game that are far superior to other things (and that they've been that way for a long time)? Ignore the problem and hope that better players challenge themselves? Ignore the nonproblem because it isn't a problem because you can win with anything with sufficient table politics? Painfully slowly hose, er, rebalance the game away from every overpowered card/deck/strategy? Shake the game up? Create a real "type 2" environment? I'm sure people will hate this idea, but I see the greatest problem being selling it rather than the implementation. I'm not entirely sure what I want to see change with the game. Picking at any one detail, like how annoyingly good Dominate is, leads to an answer that may not be best when taking everything into account. But, what I've seen with CCGs is crushing problems quickly and mercilessly is much better than letting problems linger.

cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20040728143220...@mb-m20.aol.com>... > >> It sure seems like cool ideas get watered down so much to prevent abuse as > to > >> make them nigh unplayable. > > > >"I'll play Dominate" doesn't count as a cool idea? > > I'm tired of it [Dominate]. I tried avoiding it for a while, but, because I > build so many decks around trying to make bad cards/concepts/strategies work > well enough, avoiding it wasn't sustainable as "Dominate makes everything > better". Of course, we've been through this. Yeah, well I think that the game tries really hard to balance away from this eevil phenomenon. The truth is, for all it's worth, that this game is still pool-oriented, and few disciplines manipulate Pool as efficiently as Dominate does. DOM lets you bleed for 3-4 or gain 3 pool with a single card for a cost of a blood. All the nifty combos combat decks show off with don't compare to the same amount of cards invested into a well-placed bleed. The royalty of VTES is still [insert stealth/evasion discipline] + DOM and/or Politics. Comes in two colors, weenie and +Fortitude. ;) Combat and trick decks take more skill and dedication to win with. IMHO if you sit down with a bleed machine, good table seating and an average draw can give you the table. If you sit down with a combat deck, bad table seating will take your VPs, and even on a good one you need a good draw to sweep. > What is the solution to the problem that there are certain things in this game > that are far superior to other things (and that they've been that way for a > long time)? Okay, it's not superior. It is easy. Any deck can win, it just takes more luck and/or skill. I enjoy taking a table with Mono-Trujah or Mono-Baali far more than with Malk S+B. > But, what I've seen with CCGs > is crushing problems quickly and mercilessly is much better than letting > problems linger. You will always have a strongest discipline. It seems pointless to want to "trump" it. You can go around the problem by slightly pulling laggers. Vendetta was a good example of a way to keep pesky predators at bay. Contingency Planning was underpowered, and Perfect Clarity is too specific, but is nevertheless a good start. Iron Heart and similar discipline hosers are promising, though in practice have a high opportunity cost. Resilient Mind helps against Mind Rape and Graverobbing, but perhaps more cards are on the way to balance things out. There are many options: widening the scope by giving bounce to Dementation and Mytherceria, or cost-efficient bleed reduction for Chimerstry. Assamites (or CEL) could use a Rush action or modifier that untaps them after a succesful combat, etc. Bye, Daneel

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> a écrit dans le message de news:a23a105e.04072...@posting.google.com... [snip stuff i agree with...] > You will always have a strongest discipline. It seems pointless to > want to "trump" it. You can go around the problem by slightly pulling > laggers. Vendetta was a good example of a way to keep pesky predators > at bay. Vendetta is quite crap, imho, since it is made for a clan (!brujah) that has largely access to combat strategy. Replace the vendetta by a haven uncovered and you'll gain versatility and efficiency. It is not a good answer to the dominate threat. > Contingency Planning was underpowered, but at the same time it also avoid the dominate bleeders to bleed you for 5 AND negating your chance to deflect. > and Perfect Clarity is > too specific, but is nevertheless a good start. this one may be the best of all but also needs some stealth to stealth thru. (or a daring the dawn) > Iron Heart and similar > discipline hosers are promising, though in practice have a high > opportunity cost. Iron heart is *very* good for stopping those conditionnings. Not much more. You often use them crosstable, 'cause if you play POT PRE, odds are you are already able to land a bum's rush in your predators pants. > Resilient Mind helps against Mind Rape and > Graverobbing, but perhaps more cards are on the way to balance things > out. It does not really help against big bleeds and deflections (which are the main issues) [but here comes the controversial stuff =) ] > There are many options: widening the scope by giving bounce to > Dementation and Mytherceria HELL NO ! you don't realize what you just wrote ! Dementation already provides fast bleed, fast oust power to every dem weenie ! it combines the ability to bleed anyone, +stealth and pool gain in the process. You DONT WANT to give them any access to bounce. Never ! =) (plus the biggers of them have AUS which is quite enough) Mytherceria ? Kiyasid already have dominate ! why give them something that duplicates with one of their disciplines ? It would be like saying "okay the Assamites really need help. let's give them a quietus card that grant them one maneuver !" when so many of them already have cel in some form... (Harika guljan would be pleased, of course, but the others ?) > or cost-efficient bleed reduction for > Chimerstry. Assamites (or CEL) could use a Rush action or modifier > that untaps them after a succesful combat, etc. the problem is, the game designers try not to break some disciplines archetypes and that makes very stupid cards. A good example is rooftop shadow : you can gain 1 intercept but it costs blood and is highly conditional. Why not give celerity a plain and simple +1 intercept card ? I doubt the game will end because of this ! =] Especially when you have Legwork which is quite better than rooftop because it never misses for obscure reason ("ah, yeah, you're right, your ten cap has cel hidden on top of his stuff. So i must let this kine dominance bleed through then.") Some people don't want celerity to have +1 intercept (which cannot stack with other cel intercept cards since there is none), and in the meantime they design vampires with AUS PRE DEM OBF POT ? Come one ? which clan does this girl belong to ? Is she a Nuttyador antitribu? I'll stop the digression here =) In fact, as far as dominate is concerned, bleed reduction and/or blood retaliation may be the key. let's see how many people will use the fortitude or obtenebration version of "friend of mine" ...

I think it was Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu>, who once wrote: > You will always have a strongest discipline. It seems pointless to > want to "trump" it. Sure. But the difference between the strongest and the weakest discipline could be a bit smaller. The best-card-in-discipline thread by Izaak demonstrates this nicely. On the one hand there were lists like dominate, which has so many good cards, it's hard to pick a definitive best one. And then there's stuff like Quietus, where the top 4 was mediocre, with nothing standing out. I'm fine with the existence of a strongest discipline like dominate now, but I'd like the field to be levelled a bit by pushing up the weaker ones. Not up to dominate quality, but at least somewhere in the neighbourhood. Rogar

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<4108c2e4$0$5565$79c1...@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net>... > I'll stop the digression here =) > In fact, as far as dominate is concerned, bleed reduction and/or blood > retaliation may be the key. > let's see how many people will use the fortitude or obtenebration version of > "friend of mine" ... HAHAHAHAHA!!! Hehehehe... ha. he. erm... ahem. Yeah. NO ONE. Oh, and btw, banner of neutrality helped to fix dominates strengths, or the restriction of aus and dom having all bleed reduction/bounceys or some such BS. :) ~SV

"vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:f987c6cd.04072...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] no, really i'm serious. playing Friend of mine to reduce a bleed by 2 or to remove blood off a bleeder maybe an answer. If friend of mine sees efficient play, maybe the design team will move toward that direction. banner of neutrality is an example of flawed design. If it has been "reduce a bleed by two" i'm prettysure you would see it more often. honnest.

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BD2D2357.1879B%pd...@lightlink.com>... > It was great playing with you at Origins--that Saturday night game was > hysterical. Sadly, that Muaziz/Ublo-Satha deck is yet to fare as well > locally, but it is still pretty funny to play. > > And fine newsletter. Especially when you rock a rhyme that's right on time. > Yeah, that game was a lot of fun. I have to say that dodging all but one of your Pounces added to the humor factor. Watching you have to use prevent on your own strikes. Quality. I'd love to see that deck play better. I also love Gargoyles, but they can be so hit and miss. Karl

David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<2mpt6jF...@uni-berlin.de>... [ quoted text not captured ] That occurred to me after I posted the newsletter. I should no better, since I built a Qadir recruits everything deck, where he uses his ability every turn. Oh well, sometimes you miss the easy ones. Qadir could combo with Bartholomew and Beatrice for the Necromancy angle, interesting. Karl

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<4107e47e$0$29808$79c1...@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net>... > too much limitations for a card that already costs 2 blood... > Flaming candle and concoction of vitality are waaaaay better ... But the Candle is once per game and Concoction is unique. I can Grandest multiple times per turn, and once the setup is complete, the bleeds can be big. > maybe try a memory's of mortality + bum's rush & trap stuff ?? =D For a while, I have been working on a Kiasyd rush deck, would be funny to do it with Memories, Tricks, and Traps. Karl

Karl Schaefer wrote: > Yeah, that game was a lot of fun. I have to say that dodging all but > one of your Pounces added to the humor factor. Watching you have to > use prevent on your own strikes. Quality. High entertainment. Jon keeps doing that, too. > > I'd love to see that deck play better. I also love Gargoyles, but > they can be so hit and miss. As Jon (Dancingmymmy) reminded me last night, I actually won a 6 player game with it a couple weeks ago, but really only 'cause the other guy left at the table couldn't really read his own cards, so he kept forgetting to win... :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, Reyda wrote: > no, really i'm serious. > playing Friend of mine to reduce a bleed by 2 or to remove blood off a > bleeder maybe an answer. If friend of mine sees efficient play, maybe the > design team will move toward that direction. I put 6 copies of Friend of Mine in a weenie Ravnos deck and didn't regret it. I think the card is decent because a 3 cap with for could play it 2-3 times reducing 4-6 bleed and then hunt with Hospital Food and/or Anarch Free Press to regain all lost blood. When the Anarchs have tools like the free Hospital Food and nicely-affordable Anarch Free Press, the blood cost is easy to handle. Diversion is already a very popular Anarch card, so it's easy to mix in some Friend of Mine. > banner of neutrality is an example of flawed design. If it has been "reduce > a bleed by two" i'm prettysure you would see it more often. honnest. Probably true. Banner of Neutrality is a pretty weak card. Probably the best use is in conjunction with Ecstacy in a Setite deck, but even then it's very sketchy. Matt Morgan

[ quoted text not captured ] See, I'd go much further. Not only shouldn't there be large variance in discipline strength, but the relative strength of disciplines should change, especially at the top and bottom. Dominate shouldn't be the strongest discipline. The mantle should move. At the rate sets are coming out now, it should probably move with every expansion. This is much easier, of course, if the disciplines started a lot closer. Sure, it would likely be disruptive to suddenly have Thaumaturgy (and/or whatever) be better than Dominate when the next set comes out. But, that's largely because there's such a discrepancy currently. At some point, the disciplines should be compressed to where having a new one be at the top of the heap every interval doesn't raise any eyebrows.

On 29 Jul 2004, Curevei wrote: > See, I'd go much further. Not only shouldn't there be large variance in > discipline strength, but the relative strength of disciplines should change, > especially at the top and bottom. Dominate shouldn't be the strongest > discipline. The mantle should move. At the rate sets are coming out now, it > should probably move with every expansion. This is much easier, of course, if > the disciplines started a lot closer. How could you accomplish something like that without constantly raising the power level and basically wallpapering old cards? I think one of the good things about V:TES is that the original set is still the best. I wouldn't like to see a power level jump every 9 months. Matt Morgan

[ quoted text not captured ] You start rotating sets out. No? The power level has to go up, but it already does go up, well, it would if cards stopped getting changed to depower them. As for phasing out old cards that weren't that good, on the one hand, cards that aren't that good only see play because people want to play them (there's a definition of what a not good card is in here) and one of the goals of design should be to make cards that prop up old cards that don't see play. Here's my problem with the original set never being left behind - I'm tired of seeing the same cards played all of the time. Is it more complicated than that? Sure, for instance, you don't quite see *all* of the same cards played all of the time. But, the problem I've been addressing in this thread isn't that Dominate screws up the game because you can't win without it rather that Dominate has made the game far staler than it should be. I do see advantages to having the game change little over time. My impression has been that most CCGs are optimal around the time the second expansion comes out, so why not try to preserve that rather than have a game spiral out of control like they often do? Frustrates my craving for variety, though.

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message news:20040729144136...@mb-m03.aol.com... > >> See, I'd go much further. Not only shouldn't there be large variance in > >> discipline strength, but the relative strength of disciplines should > >change, > >> especially at the top and bottom. Dominate shouldn't be the strongest > >> discipline. The mantle should move. At the rate sets are coming out now, > >it > >> should probably move with every expansion. This is much easier, of course, > >if > >> the disciplines started a lot closer. > > > >How could you accomplish something like that without constantly raising > >the power level and basically wallpapering old cards? I think one of the > >good things about V:TES is that the original set is still the best. I > >wouldn't like to see a power level jump every 9 months. > > You start rotating sets out. No? > You are right, NO. The only TCG in existence with the player base to back a rotating set schedule is MtG. Everyone else cannot afford to alienate older players, who want their game investments to remain tournament viable. As soon as a new purchase becomes perceived as mandatory, players find a new game, or continue to play, but choose to stop buying new product. > The power level has to go up, but it already does go up, well, it would if > cards stopped getting changed to depower them. > It can go up on a slow pace, though. If you keep the rate of escalation slow, obsoleting older sets becomes a consideration on a 5-10 year time frame, if not longer. > snip > I do see advantages to having the game change little over time. My impression > has been that most CCGs are optimal around the time the second expansion comes > out, so why not try to preserve that rather than have a game spiral out of > control like they often do? Frustrates my craving for variety, though. The reason you don't do this comes down to money. In order to have a viable TCG based off of rotating sets out, you need an extremely high rate of influx of new players (to offset those who either choose not to buy in, or reach a level of fiscal fatigue with trying to keep up). VTES, while still growing nicely, lacks such a heavy interest with new players. Without it, obsoleting old sets will alienate the people who currently buy, and you ultimately end up obsoleting the entire game. DaveZ Atom Weaver

> The reason you don't do this comes down to money. In order to have a >viable TCG based off of rotating sets out, you need an extremely high rate >of influx of new players (to offset those who either choose not to buy in, >or reach a level of fiscal fatigue with trying to keep up). VTES, while >still growing nicely, lacks such a heavy interest with new players. Without >it, obsoleting old sets will alienate the people who currently buy, and you >ultimately end up obsoleting the entire game. A possibility, if a remote one, is that rotating sets makes it sufficiently easier to get into a good game at any time that you get more new players. Doesn't L5R obsolete sets? Is there even a commonality between CCGs that survive (few do)? In terms of multiplayer, the only old, surviving CCGs are V:TES and Shadowfist, right? Not that I'm looking forward to more arguments as to which is better or how much is or isn't understood about the other, but if 'fist is the only other apt model, is it similar or different in terms of power shift?

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@eris.io.com> a écrit dans le message de news:Pine.LNX.4.44.04072...@eris.io.com... [ quoted text not captured ] But at the same time, the power escalade is obvious when you look at the crypt cards. Yes, the vampires keep getting better and better. with only a few exceptions, Jyhad vamps look like crap when compared to the most recent ones.

cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20040728143220...@mb-m20.aol.com>... > I'm not entirely sure what I want to see change with the game. Picking at any > one detail, like how annoyingly good Dominate is, leads to an answer that may > not be best when taking everything into account. Ban Deflection. :) Old and powerful vampires can still Redirect bleeds from younger ones, for free and at the cost of tapping. Dominate can still bleed the pants of off any other discipline, but it can't defend itself against them nearly as well. I really think that simple change would make VTES much different, and for the better. Quick TWDA search shows that 8/26 winning decks pack Deflections since May 1, 2004. Hardly unusual, but just to illustrate the point. Not going to belabor this point because it's been said by various people before, but it seems appropriate to agitate on this thread.

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, Reyda wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Really? I haven't seen an Anvil or a Jimmy Dunn printed lately. Larger vampires have gotten better because some of the old ones (Appolonius, Miranda Sanova, etc.) just weren't worth playing. Just because the design team has settled on a logical costing scheme doesn't mean they are ramping up the power level. Have you seen any group 1 vampires at tournaments lately? I have. The Ventrue Princes, Anson, Anneke, Gideon Fontaine and many others from Jyhad are very good. Although the costing scheme has changed, I don't think anyone could make the argument that these vampires need to be better. That the design team has adopted a logical costing scheme only means that we won't end up with mistakes like Judah or Patrizia. We won't have sets that include Gerard (4 inferiors for 5 pool) and Sheila (1 more buys 2 superiors, 2 inferiors and +1 bleed). To make 5 caps worth playing, you have to make them better than Gerard (okay, I've played him, but don't usually feel like I've gotten my pool's worth). To make 10 caps worth playing, you have to make them better than Appolonius. That doesn't represent an overall power escalation in the game. It represents a formula that seems to work pretty well. As far as I know, there is no such formula for library cards, so we end up with some that are pretty useless (Improvised Tactics). Matt Morgan

Jeff Kuta wrote: > Ban Deflection. :) > > Old and powerful vampires can still Redirect bleeds from younger ones, > for free and at the cost of tapping. Dominate can still bleed the > pants of off any other discipline, but it can't defend itself against > them nearly as well. > > I really think that simple change would make VTES much different, and > for the better. Quick TWDA search shows that 8/26 winning decks pack > Deflections since May 1, 2004. Hardly unusual, but just to illustrate > the point. Hey, someone else went public. I don't feel so alone anymore, but you are stepping on my broody loner schtick. ;) __ David Cherryholmes

Reyda wrote: > But at the same time, the power escalade is obvious when you look at the > crypt cards. > Yes, the vampires keep getting better and better. > with only a few exceptions, Jyhad vamps look like crap when compared to the > most recent ones. The Jyhad/1995 base set vampires above capacity 6 are weaker by design than the ones that followed. The ones that followed have, on the whole, adhered to roughly the same power structure, however. It's a one-time step up, not a continuing escalation. The step isn't really an escalation itself, either. The ones that followed simply tried to be as strong as the 6-and-under crowd -- it didn't raise the bar, it just brought the 7-and-over crowd closer to the bar set by the smaller guys. Like printing more cards that were more powerful than Chainsaw, Blood Puppy, and other cards at the bottom of the power curve doesn't necessarily reflect an escalation. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@eris.io.com> a écrit dans le message de > > Yes, the vampires keep getting better and better. > > with only a few exceptions, Jyhad vamps look like crap when compared to the > > most recent ones. gotta catch a plane so i don't have much time for answering, but... > Really? I haven't seen an Anvil or a Jimmy Dunn printed lately. and you already know that those are part of the "few exceptions" i mentionned up there. Anvil has always been on top of the power curve, it's even the first one that spring into mind when we talk about "discipline costing", i guess he pop up each time we talk about it in this newsgroup. > Have you seen any group 1 vampires at tournaments > lately? I have. The Ventrue Princes, Anson, Anneke, Gideon Fontaine and > many others from Jyhad are very good. I have too, but you'll notice they are alway the same. Princes first, because often their ability to play 2nd tradition and parity shift is more important than their overall discipline spread. And of course, the cheapest like Walter nash or Gilbert duane (who look like misprints) are often seen at tables during tournaments. Some big vamps are here for their unique power (anson/anneke) But, now, the problem is not only about the old big primogens : think about the midcaps. Do you see often Adrianne, Tusk, Quinton, Lucia, Grendel or Melissa barton in play ? the 5-8 cap non princes from jyhad are never seen. I think they disappeared a long time ago when sabbat came out. And now these sabbat 5-8 cap will gradually disappear for newer vampires since we've got those brand new 7/8 cap Archbishop (where the line for being archbishop was at 9 cap) and other new kids with more and more useful specials. hey, they have to sell cards too. =)

David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<2mt9d2F...@uni-berlin.de>... [ quoted text not captured ] well, I sorta kinda agree too. But I still think that a disciplineless bounce card would do wonders too. something like: cost 1, only to prey, reduce bleed amount to 1 and stealth to 0. I still don't see what's wrong with this. People tell me it would hose bleed decks, but I don't see why. Most tournement decks pack bounce anyway, so the only thing that would change is that more decks will become tier 1 tournement decks. And the problem with that is????

In article <621dd332.04072...@posting.google.com>, jeff...@hotmail.com (Jeff Kuta) wrote: >cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20040728143220...@mb-m20.aol.com>... >> I'm not entirely sure what I want to see change with the game. Picking at any >> one detail, like how annoyingly good Dominate is, leads to an answer that may >> not be best when taking everything into account. > >Ban Deflection. :) > >Old and powerful vampires can still Redirect bleeds from younger ones, >for free and at the cost of tapping. Dominate can still bleed the >pants of off any other discipline, but it can't defend itself against >them nearly as well. Interesting idea. But wouldn't this make clans that have AUS plus some bleed discipline (dom/dem) even MORE powerful, since they will now be the only one who can bleed AND bounce easily? Just wondering. -- charles lechasseur - da...@novideospamtron.ca

I think it was Curevei <cur...@aol.commetal>, who once wrote: > See, I'd go much further. Not only shouldn't there be large variance in > discipline strength, but the relative strength of disciplines should > change, especially at the top and bottom. Dominate shouldn't be the > strongest discipline. The mantle should move. At the rate sets are > coming out now, it should probably move with every expansion. This is > much easier, of course, if the disciplines started a lot closer. I'm not against dominate being dethroned, but I don't agree with your method of doing it. Power escalation is why I rarely play Magic anymore. If you were going to put another discipline at the top, it should be by knocking dominate down a peg. Which is difficult to do, obviously. Currently there seems to be an emphasis on making combat hurt pool-wise. This makes bleeding relatively weaker, and hence dominate becomes weaker, too (though not by much). I much prefer this method over escalation, but I still think a lot more could be done by making some 'power cards' for the weaker disciplines. Filling up some of the holes in the power curve, so to speak. Rogar

I think it was Charles Lechasseur <da...@novideospamtron.ca>, who once wrote: > Interesting idea. But wouldn't this make clans that have AUS plus some > bleed discipline (dom/dem) even MORE powerful, since they will now be the > only one who can bleed AND bounce easily? Just wondering. But then they need two disciplines in stead of everything rolled into one. And possibly a third for the stealth. So that means bigger vampires, slower decks. Rogar

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message news:20040729160100...@mb-m03.aol.com... > > The reason you don't do this comes down to money. In order to have a > >viable TCG based off of rotating sets out, you need an extremely high rate > >of influx of new players (to offset those who either choose not to buy in, > >or reach a level of fiscal fatigue with trying to keep up). VTES, while > >still growing nicely, lacks such a heavy interest with new players. Without > >it, obsoleting old sets will alienate the people who currently buy, and you > >ultimately end up obsoleting the entire game. > > A possibility, if a remote one, is that rotating sets makes it sufficiently > easier to get into a good game at any time that you get more new players. > Doesn't that pre-suppose that there would be new players available? Unless those people are fully expecting the local player base to be around for a long time, its not so likely that they'd pony up the cash to buy in. You also have to consider that the player in transition out of one game due to fiscal fatigue will be looking for something more stable if they want a to play a different game for simple entertainment purposes. > Doesn't L5R obsolete sets? > I don't know. Is it worth it to pull in analogies from other hobby games? Compare WotC to Games Workshop, which thrives on composting the 12-16 year old demographic. Older player/collectors leave in droves with each released update of the rules set, usually for other miniatures games with better rules, or they abandon the hobby entirely... It matters not a whit to GW's bottom line, since they have the critical mass and enough market presence to be the game of choice. Whenever a smaller miniatures company tries to follow the GW model (and there have been plenty), they end up going out of business. > Is there even a commonality between CCGs that survive (few do)? In terms of > multiplayer, the only old, surviving CCGs are V:TES and Shadowfist, right? Not > that I'm looking forward to more arguments as to which is better or how much is > or isn't understood about the other, but if 'fist is the only other apt model, > is it similar or different in terms of power shift? AFAIK, all of the printed 'Fist cards are still playable (with extensive errata). DaveZ Atom Weaver

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BD2EA484.18819%pd...@lightlink.com>... > High entertainment. Jon keeps doing that, too. Serenading the Kami/Torn Signpost/Blood Fury was pretty funny too. > > > > > I'd love to see that deck play better. I also love Gargoyles, but > > they can be so hit and miss. > > As Jon (Dancingmymmy) reminded me last night, I actually won a 6 player game > with it a couple weeks ago, but really only 'cause the other guy left at the > table couldn't really read his own cards, so he kept forgetting to win... You would have won faster if my Baali weren't bleeding so darned responsibly. -Jon we're on a spying mission...from Satan! [ quoted text not captured ]

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<4108c2e4$0$5565$79c1...@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net>... > "Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> a écrit dans le message de > news:a23a105e.04072...@posting.google.com... [snip things about existing cards] I don't really see the cards I mentioned too often. I was considering Vendetta though for a Bruise and Bleed deck, but I'm not sure I want to wait for vampires to actually bleed me for 3 or more before paying them a visit. Maybe with adequate pool gain? Will try it, and will know more about it then. As for the others, well, I never really said they were omnipotent dominate trumpers... ;) > [but here comes the controversial stuff =) ] > > > There are many options: widening the scope by giving bounce to > > Dementation and Mytherceria > > HELL NO ! you don't realize what you just wrote ! > Dementation already provides fast bleed, fast oust power to every dem weenie > ! it combines the ability to bleed anyone, +stealth and pool gain in the > process. You DONT WANT to give them any access to bounce. Never ! =) (plus > the biggers of them have AUS which is quite enough) You refer to a single card (Kindred Spirits). Which is awesome, but as I reasoned in an earlier thread, if you actually plan "ousting your prey" to be your primary strategy, it is not that much beter than a Social Charm. Which is just a poor man's Legal, which in turn is generally considered inferior to Govern. ;) > Mytherceria ? Kiyasid already have dominate ! why give them something that > duplicates with one of their disciplines ? It would be like saying "okay > the Assamites really need help. let's give them a quietus card that grant > them one maneuver !" when so many of them already have cel in some form... > (Harika guljan would be pleased, of course, but the others ?) Well, a maneuver for QUI would not necessarily be completely unused. Depends. But really facing the "problem" it seems apparent that cards like bounce and AI really help to define the metagame. If they would not exist, _the_ best deck would be a DOM OBF bleed machine, followed by the weenie DOM deck. Knowing that bleeds can go astray (or backfire even) people are more cautious when designing their decks - giving more room for other deck archetypes, which in turn can defeat a very bouncy prey. > > or cost-efficient bleed reduction for > > Chimerstry. Assamites (or CEL) could use a Rush action or modifier > > that untaps them after a succesful combat, etc. > > the problem is, the game designers try not to break some disciplines > archetypes and that makes very stupid cards. > A good example is rooftop shadow : you can gain 1 intercept but it costs > blood and is highly conditional. Why not give celerity a plain and simple +1 > intercept card ? I doubt the game will end because of this ! =] I don't see this as a problem. Why bother assembling an AUS QUI deck if Celerity alone gives you good intercept? I'd be happiest with clear-cut discipline definitions. > In fact, as far as dominate is concerned, bleed reduction and/or blood > retaliation may be the key. Only usable after being bled. The acting minion takes X unpreventable damage, where X is the amount of pool you lost to this bleed. Bye, Daneel

joen...@hotmail.com (Jeroen) wrote in message news:<5f0d2397.04073...@posting.google.com>... > David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<2mt9d2F...@uni-berlin.de>... > > Jeff Kuta wrote: > > > > > Ban Deflection. :) > > > > Hey, someone else went public. I don't feel so alone anymore, but you > > are stepping on my broody loner schtick. ;) > > > well, I sorta kinda agree too. > > I still don't see what's wrong with this. People tell me it would hose > bleed decks, but I don't see why. I think the biggest danger of banning Deflection might be that Dominate bleed decks become even more focused on ousting fast. They'd no longer "need" to devote card slots for bounce so they'd be going forward full throttle even harder. But Auspex would still be able to deal with those. I don't see any problem with a proliferation of more decks that bleed hard yet responsibly. > Most tournement decks pack bounce > anyway, so the only thing that would change is that more decks will > become tier 1 tournement decks. And the problem with that is???? No one seems to have a good answer to that. Fear of the unknown perhaps.

dan...@eposta.hu (Daneel) wrote in message news:<a23a105e.04080...@posting.google.com>... > "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<4108c2e4$0$5565$79c1...@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net>... > > "Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> a écrit dans le message de > > news:a23a105e.04072...@posting.google.com... > > [snip things about existing cards] > > I don't really see the cards I mentioned too often. I was considering > Vendetta though for a Bruise and Bleed deck, but I'm not sure I want > to wait for vampires to actually bleed me for 3 or more before paying > them a visit. Maybe with adequate pool gain? Will try it, and will > know more about it then. As for the others, well, I never really said > they were omnipotent dominate trumpers... ;) > > > [but here comes the controversial stuff =) ] > > > > > There are many options: widening the scope by giving bounce to > > > Dementation and Mytherceria > > > > HELL NO ! you don't realize what you just wrote ! > > Dementation already provides fast bleed, fast oust power to every dem weenie > > ! it combines the ability to bleed anyone, +stealth and pool gain in the > > process. You DONT WANT to give them any access to bounce. Never ! =) (plus > > the biggers of them have AUS which is quite enough) > > You refer to a single card (Kindred Spirits). Which is awesome, but as > I reasoned in an earlier thread, if you actually plan "ousting your > prey" to be your primary strategy, it is not that much beter than a > Social Charm. Which is just a poor man's Legal, which in turn is > generally considered inferior to Govern. ;) > I hope you're joking here. KS is waaay better than Social Charm. * You only need inferior dem to gain a pool: look at the number of 1-3 caps with dem vs the number of 1-3 caps with PRE * being able to bleed someone else at least gives you something to bargain or threaten with. This is HUGE, imo. J