Anarch Cards ratings

From another thread, it looks like many Anarch cards are judged "lame" ; some are pretty good, though, but how many ? Was this extension useful or not, what did you think of it ? Below is the list of the new (not reprints) Anarch cards, with a very personnal rating I put on it, ranking from 0 (Laaaaaaame !!!) to 3 (really great !). Feel free to comment, rate in your way, etc. And let's not forget that the extension, as many of the recent ones, was a lot about vampires too... Also, I won't "judge" that whole Anarch thing : if a card is good for an Anarch, I will rate it well, not wondering if it really is worth it to become an Anarch anyway. IMO, Anarchs principally benefit independant voters and weenie toolbox, time will tell how really useful that mechanism can be. The Anarch Free Press C : 2 (very good for Anarchs) Anarch Railroad R2 : 2 Anarch Salon C2 : 1 Aranthebes, The Immortal R : 2 Banshee Ironwail R : 1 (who needs a Unique Bang Nakh ??) Bear-Baiting R : 1 (cornercase) Bleeding the Vine R : 0 !!! It looks at first like a good card, but it costs pool, and you don't even have the "surprise factor" ; I have two for trade... Blow Torch C : 2 Body Bag C : 0 ; it requires an Anarch, cost 2 blood... At 1 it would have been playable. Border Skirmish C2 : 1, because Harbingers can use it ; for everybody else, it is useless. Brinksmanship R : 3 for HoS Car Bomb C : 1 Carnivale R : 2 Chiram's Hold R2 : 0, like all the Holds !!! Cold Amber's Hold R2 : 0 (and it may be the best of the holds...) Cooler C : 1 Cry Wolf R2 : 1 ; I think it will see very little light except in some weird decks ; of course, if you can turn it into an Abomination it is much more interesting... Delivery Truck R : 0 ; come on, we have Storage Annex and Pier 13 !! Diversion C2 : 1 ; no doubt the best multi-use card, but it ain't good enough to justify clogging your hand with useless combat before you succeed in becoming Anarch, IMO. Drum of Xipe Totec R : 2 Dummy Corporation C : 1, but still lame. Elder Michaelis's Hold R2 : 0 Emissary C : 1 (too costly : Baron, another anarch, tap...) Fee Stakes : 2 because it gives new voting options ; not 3 because it can be destroyed, and there are only 6 to contest... Fiendish Tongue C2 : 2 for Tzimisce, 1 for Sabbat... Filchware's Pawn Shop R : 1 Firebrand C : 3 (may be one of the best reasons to play Anarch vote...) Galaric's Legacy C : 2 Gambit Accepted R : 3 !!! This card is a must in all "fast" decks, and you can even put many in game !! Although I've seen it backfire at its player more often than I've seen it make him win... Gather R : 3 Ghouled C : 2 Gift of Experience R2 : 1 (you get tapped !!!) :-( Go Anarch C2 : 2 Highway Haven: RV C : 0 Hospital Food C : 1 Improvised Tactics C2 :1 Into the Fire C : 2 (long needed, although marginally useful) Irregular Protocol C : 1, can still be useful, especially against Awe / VC Liberty Club Intrigue R : 0. Lame, lame, lame !!! Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. Magazine R : 2 Mob Rule C : 2 The Mole C2 : 1, because it can't be used on anarchs. Molotov Cocktail C : 1 (burn after Combat Ends !!!) :-( Nosferatu Bestial R : 1 Out of the Frying Pan C : 2 Paragon R : 2 (the Ventrue needed so much another great card...) Petra Resonance R : 1 Rant! C : 1 Redline R : 1 Regarhagan's Hold R2 : 0 Reins of Power C : 3 !!! Power to the big voters !!! Repo Man R : 2 Seattle Committee R2 : 2 Skullduggery C2 : 2 for FoS cycling, but 1 for the rest... Smash and Grab C2 : 0 Snipe Hunt C : 0 Sowing Dissension C : 0 (making useless enemies) The Status Perfectus R2 : 2 Stolen Police Cruiser R : 1 Sunset Strip, Hollywood R : 1 Sweeper R : 1 Sword of Nuln R : 2 Sword of Troile R : 1 (too many conditions for such a cost ; Pot and Pre usually aren't what you need in Brujah weapon decks - you already have POT, and don't care about Pre !!) Unlicensed Taxicab C : 2, very good in allies decks. Year of Fortune C : 1 That's my opinions, now it's your turn ! Yours, Orpheus

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:23:52 +0200, "Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> scrawled: >Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. This i take as a personal insult. which i shouldn't, that's just stupid, but anyway... this card rocks! a trifle, so not really using up your master phase, and it gets you that much needed extra blood you want to stop one of your guys hunting, or give that extra blood to pay for that card you want to play, or even to help out a cross table ally to stop one of his guys hunting, or to let him block with an empty guy without losing it to torpor, or whatever. I love Life In The City, and would consider it in the top of the anarchs cards. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

"Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> wrote > Anarch Salon C2 : 1 2-great with blood dolls / tribute to the master > Banshee Ironwail R : 1 (who needs a Unique Bang Nakh ??) 2-you forgot the special effect when blocking. Which can be decisive when playing walls, eagle sight... > Bleeding the Vine R : 0 !!! It looks at first like a good card, but it > costs pool, and you don't even have the "surprise factor" ; I have two for > trade... 3-who needs the surprise factor ? being able to counter your foes master card flow is a blessing ! trade them with me then. =p > Body Bag C : 0 ; it requires an Anarch, cost 2 blood... At 1 it would have > been playable. 1 or 2-I'd rate it better because it can shut down a rushing deck long enough for you to sweep the table. You also become immune to temptations, spirit marionnette, as long as you can gain blood in one way or another. =) > Border Skirmish C2 : 1, because Harbingers can use it ; for everybody else, > it is useless. mmm... i think it really pisses of everyone on the table. The good thing is you untap at the end of the turn : ready for deflections or delaying tactics =) > Car Bomb C : 1 it's always a -1 stealth stuff, which would alloy any minion to block. Too bad you have to tap the bombing vampire =/ Maybe a free, one shot version of Starshell grenade launcher ? > Carnivale R : 2 ?? one of the worst card ever printed ! why not put a damn obfuscate card on your toreador ? > Cry Wolf R2 : 1 ; I think it will see very little light except in some > weird decks ; of course, if you can turn it into an Abomination it is much > more interesting... 2- I'm sure it's a good card. Try to summon it to counter the bad side effect of being blocked. I'm pretty sure it can be a good surprise in a Daughter, !/ Salubri deck which never relies on allies. > Diversion C2 : 1 ; no doubt the best multi-use card, but it ain't good > enough to justify clogging your hand with useless combat before you succeed > in becoming Anarch, IMO. 2-you can become anarch on the first round by spending 2 blood if you really want. > Drum of Xipe Totec R : 2 1- yeah ? your opponent plays drawing out the beast and suddenly you lose CEL. > Dummy Corporation C : 1, but still lame. 2- a very tricky card ! Plus, you decide to burn it whenever you want, (run out of deflections) I'd play it associated with Archon investigations for the sake of luring bleeders ;) > Emissary C : 1 (too costly : Baron, another anarch, tap...) a cam vampire in torpor can tap to cancel the votes ! but on the other hand it requires no discipline, and you can untap the tapped anarch via firebrand... > Fee Stakes : 2 because it gives new voting options ; not 3 because it can be > destroyed, and there are only 6 to contest... the votes are your if the action passes. no referendum. Pass two fee stakes in one turn and you're ready to go. > Fiendish Tongue C2 : 2 for Tzimisce, 1 for Sabbat... 3 for tzimisce, which may untap at the end of the turn. 1 for sabbat, for them it's a computer hacking. > Filchware's Pawn Shop R : 1 2 you can paralyze most gun decks. you can fetch a leather jacket in your prey's ash heapwhen you're a fighter.... Good card. > Gambit Accepted R : 3 !!! This card is a must in all "fast" decks, and you > can even put many in game !! Although I've seen it backfire at its player > more often than I've seen it make him win... i don't know if it's so good. At least it can help you kill wall decks that do nothing and hang up here for the VP of last "meth standing" =) > Gather R : 3 2. Fragile. > Highway Haven: RV C : 0 2-hey i like this card ! it helps you avoid trap combat, and is an incentive for people not coming at you (they stay tapped on the next turn) > Improvised Tactics C2 :1 2-this card is great, clearly for the potence effect. Too bad you can play only one impro tactics per combat, since pot/pro vampire would have a free .44 each round =) > Irregular Protocol C : 1, can still be useful, especially against Awe / VC 2-yup. Awe/bewitching/voter cap is one of the major bloating machine since they downgraded 5th trad. > Liberty Club Intrigue R : 0. Lame, lame, lame !!! sucks ! like many hosers. > Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. 1 or 2 - it does not really cost a master phase. It's a free blood on a vampire of your choice. Pwerful effect especially in the endgame. But it costs a card slot, you may say. > Magazine R : 2 1- ammo cards are so cornercase =/ > Mob Rule C : 2 1 too random =/ > The Mole C2 : 1, because it can't be used on anarchs. yes, it's a shame. Same for the Dom effect : why does it have to be a younger vampire acting ? > Molotov Cocktail C : 1 (burn after Combat Ends !!!) :-( 2-it's a one shot weapon, pal. i like it, and its anarch-flavored ;) > Nosferatu Bestial R : 1 2-i cant really tell. It's unique but it gives you one fresh retainer each turn when used with Heidelberg... > Petra Resonance R : 1 0 dont like the randomness of those cards =/ > Rant! C : 1 the backlash hurts so much =/ > Redline R : 1 3-if you can trick the table into doing what you want, Redline is a marvel. > Reins of Power C : 3 !!! Power to the big voters !!! 2- you meant power to the big vampires... is it so powerful? i doubt so. > Skullduggery C2 : 2 for FoS cycling, but 1 for the rest... 0- the presence effect sucks. The other look more like "strategy suport card" : pro might be interesting if you've got +1 bleed (dylan, or equipped with laptop'n'stuff). The obf is great when you've got a gun. > Smash and Grab C2 : 0 2- the pot and ani effects are great and have inherent stealth. Don't underestimate smash&grab =) > Sweeper R : 1 0- No really... better put another KRC or a card that will actually help you to oust your prey ! and it must be called by a baron ! done =) reyda

"Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> wrote in message news:<3f40a91e$0$1162$626a...@news.free.fr>... > From another thread, it looks like many Anarch cards are judged "lame" ; > some are pretty good, though, but how many ? Was this extension useful or > not, what did you think of it ? > > Below is the list of the new (not reprints) Anarch cards, with a very > personnal rating I put on it, ranking from 0 (Laaaaaaame !!!) to 3 (really > great !). Feel free to comment, rate in your way, etc. > > And let's not forget that the extension, as many of the recent ones, was a > lot about vampires too... > > Also, I won't "judge" that whole Anarch thing : if a card is good for an > Anarch, I will rate it well, not wondering if it really is worth it to > become an Anarch anyway. IMO, Anarchs principally benefit independant voters > and weenie toolbox, time will tell how really useful that mechanism can be. I will only rate the ones I disagree with: > Aranthebes, The Immortal R : 2 Absolute powercard. I'd give it a 3. > Bear-Baiting R : 1 (cornercase) Very. 0 might be correct as well. > Bleeding the Vine R : 0 !!! It looks at first like a good card, but it > costs pool, and you don't even have the "surprise factor" ; I have two for > trade... Disagree. Any deck that bloats slightly can afford this and gain much table control. Or control over the prey's masters. > Carnivale R : 2 Not sure this is worth it. Torries have obf available to them nowadays. > Delivery Truck R : 0 ; come on, we have Storage Annex and Pier 13 !! I would agree, but I think it's not been fully explored yet. > Diversion C2 : 1 ; no doubt the best multi-use card, but it ain't good > enough to justify clogging your hand with useless combat before you succeed > in becoming Anarch, IMO. Which would make it a 2 for anarchs, once they are. > Drum of Xipe Totec R : 2 Good for new decktypes that want CEL from equipment. Might be a 3 for them. > Dummy Corporation C : 1, but still lame. Needs more exploration. > Fiendish Tongue C2 : 2 for Tzimisce, 1 for Sabbat... I'd go so far as to call it 3 for Tzimi. > Gambit Accepted R : 3 !!! This card is a must in all "fast" decks, and you > can even put many in game !! Although I've seen it backfire at its player > more often than I've seen it make him win... Not seen it enough yet. > Gift of Experience R2 : 1 (you get tapped !!!) :-( Worth 3 for merged-vampire driven decks where the crypt needs to contain some others as well. > Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. Hmmm I've seen some decks use this lately. Might be better than 0. > Magazine R : 2 Not sure whether this sets up combo's that are too card-intensive. > Nosferatu Bestial R : 1 Seen as the basis of many new nosferatu attempts - probably worth more in the right deck. > The Status Perfectus R2 : 2 The first deck that uses this strongly should show it's power. The holds are a big uncertainty for me still. Need to try them some. Tobias

"Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> writes: > Bleeding the Vine R : 0 !!! It looks at first like a good card, but it > costs pool, and you don't even have the "surprise factor" ; I have two for > trade... 0-3. A lot of my decks belong to the category of "please please please do not let my predator play Bleeding the Vine!" Use it in a bloat deck to screw your prey's master card strategy. If your prey just laughs, you can let it burn. If he screams out loud when you play it, use it every turn. :) > Diversion C2 : 1 ; no doubt the best multi-use card, but it ain't good > enough to justify clogging your hand with useless combat before you succeed > in becoming Anarch, IMO. 3 for dedicated Anarch decks. They need to make their minions into Anarchs ASAP anyway, in order to function at all. > Dummy Corporation C : 1, but still lame. 1-2. Bleed defense that does not require a discipline or sect. And works for any bleed, not just bleeds larger than three. Have not played it, so I don't know how badly the uniqueness hurts. > Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. 2. Life in the City is a *trifle*! Ascendance is not. > Molotov Cocktail C : 1 (burn after Combat Ends !!!) :-( 3 for Trap & Undead Persistence decks! One single card both burns the opposing minion *and* resets the Trap to allow for the burn. Beautiful. > Smash and Grab C2 : 0 2 for dedicated Anarch decks. Burn a location *at +1 stealth*. Or destroy annoying retainers and allies, this too with stealth. Bye-bye, Ambrosius... Location killers and retainer/ally killers tend to be shots in the dark. This card can be used for either purpose, making it much more useful. > Snipe Hunt C : 0 The *very existence* of this card creates a level 2 effect in the metagame. -- Nature *is* wasteful; but how well She can afford it! Nature *is* false; but I'm a bit of a liar myself. Nature *is* useless; but then how beautiful She is! Nature *is* cruel; but I too am a Sadist. - Aleister Crowley

Hmmmm... > The Anarch Free Press C : 2 (very good for Anarchs) > Anarch Railroad R2 : 2 > Anarch Salon C2 : 1 > Aranthebes, The Immortal R : 2 > Banshee Ironwail R : 1 (who needs a Unique Bang Nakh ??) > Bear-Baiting R : 1 (cornercase) > Bleeding the Vine R : 0 !!! It looks at first like a good card, but it > costs pool, and you don't even have the "surprise factor" ; I have two for > trade... Yes, but it STOPS people playing master cards, that chews up their hand, that gives you an edge. Well worth the upkeep. It is an optional upkeep too. It's clearly designed to go in decks that have come strong bloat angles and will alter games in time. > Blow Torch C : 2 > Body Bag C : 0 ; it requires an Anarch, cost 2 blood... At 1 it would have > been playable. > Border Skirmish C2 : 1, because Harbingers can use it ; for everybody else, > it is useless. No, this sucks. Why would HoS use it at all? Wait for the next Slaughterhouse to pop up. > Brinksmanship R : 3 for HoS 1 for everyone else. ;) > Car Bomb C : 1 > Carnivale R : 2 > Chiram's Hold R2 : 0, like all the Holds !!! Hmmm... I think this one is a good card for the Tzimisce. Esp. Dragos. Especially if used with superior Terror Frenzy. > Cold Amber's Hold R2 : 0 (and it may be the best of the holds...) > Cooler C : 1 > Cry Wolf R2 : 1 ; I think it will see very little light except in some > weird decks ; of course, if you can turn it into an Abomination it is much > more interesting... Easily done, just takes a while. He's a free bruiser. I think at least a 2. > Delivery Truck R : 0 ; come on, we have Storage Annex and Pier 13 !! > Diversion C2 : 1 ; no doubt the best multi-use card, but it ain't good > enough to justify clogging your hand with useless combat before you succeed > in becoming Anarch, IMO. > Drum of Xipe Totec R : 2 > Dummy Corporation C : 1, but still lame. > Elder Michaelis's Hold R2 : 0 > Emissary C : 1 (too costly : Baron, another anarch, tap...) > Fee Stakes : 2 because it gives new voting options ; not 3 because it can be > destroyed, and there are only 6 to contest... > Fiendish Tongue C2 : 2 for Tzimisce, 1 for Sabbat... > Filchware's Pawn Shop R : 1 > Firebrand C : 3 (may be one of the best reasons to play Anarch vote...) > Galaric's Legacy C : 2 > Gambit Accepted R : 3 !!! This card is a must in all "fast" decks, and you > can even put many in game !! Although I've seen it backfire at its player > more often than I've seen it make him win... > Gather R : 3 It is VERY conditional. It needs big Gangrel. It is unique. It is slow. Why is this a 3? > Ghouled C : 2 > Gift of Experience R2 : 1 (you get tapped !!!) :-( > Go Anarch C2 : 2 > Highway Haven: RV C : 0 > Hospital Food C : 1 > Improvised Tactics C2 :1 > Into the Fire C : 2 (long needed, although marginally useful) > Irregular Protocol C : 1, can still be useful, especially against Awe / VC No, it sucks. Compare to Delaying Tactics and about 6 other reactive vote cards, and you'll see it is way under par. You Tap. You have to be an Anarch. It costs a blood. Not worth it. (question: Other than you Anarch Revolters, who actually intends to play with reactive vote cards anyway?) > Liberty Club Intrigue R : 0. Lame, lame, lame !!! > Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. > Magazine R : 2 Huh? Surely there is no possible reason as to why you would want to waste a card slot storing an ammo card on a gun. Surely you should just add another ammo card! > Mob Rule C : 2 > The Mole C2 : 1, because it can't be used on anarchs. > Molotov Cocktail C : 1 (burn after Combat Ends !!!) :-( > Nosferatu Bestial R : 1 This is a great card! It's maybe not as strong as a 3rd Trad, but the "recruit ally" potential is huge. 2 at least. > Out of the Frying Pan C : 2 > Paragon R : 2 (the Ventrue needed so much another great card...) > Petra Resonance R : 1 > Rant! C : 1 > Redline R : 1 Hmmm... although farily powerful, it is so conditional that it will be hard to put to use. 1 is probably a bit much. > Regarhagan's Hold R2 : 0 > Reins of Power C : 3 !!! Power to the big voters !!! > Repo Man R : 2 > Seattle Committee R2 : 2 > Skullduggery C2 : 2 for FoS cycling, but 1 for the rest... > Smash and Grab C2 : 0 Errr... a Rampage at stealth? Well worth it. Also the ani one is quite good. > Snipe Hunt C : 0 > Sowing Dissension C : 0 (making useless enemies) > The Status Perfectus R2 : 2 > Stolen Police Cruiser R : 1 > Sunset Strip, Hollywood R : 1 > Sweeper R : 1 > Sword of Nuln R : 2 Why do you think this is so great? Seemed fairly average to me. > Sword of Troile R : 1 (too many conditions for such a cost ; Pot and Pre > usually aren't what you need in Brujah weapon decks - you already have POT, > and don't care about Pre !!) The PRE isn't there for the combat, it's so you can bleed / vote a lot stronger. Imagine the power of this with a Heidleburg... In all honesty, I'd AVOID combat with this and use it as a skill booster. > Unlicensed Taxicab C : 2, very good in allies decks. > Year of Fortune C : 1 DH

dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) writes: > > Irregular Protocol C : 1, can still be useful, especially against Awe / VC > > No, it sucks. Compare to Delaying Tactics and about 6 other reactive > vote cards, and you'll see it is way under par. You Tap. You have to > be an Anarch. It costs a blood. Not worth it. Irregular Protocol [Anarchs:C] Cardtype: Reaction Cost: 1 blood Only usable during a referendum. Tap this reacting vampire to force the acting vampire to abstain from voting (this can cancel that vampire's votes). Nope, does *not* require an Anarch. No wonder you thought this card sucked. [ quoted text not captured ]

We haven´t used all the cards in the set, but here´s some comments. (where I don´t agree) > Cooler C : 1 Maybe a 2. Good cost-rating and non-unique. > Drum of Xipe Totec R : 2 3 for Goratrix by your ratings. > Filchware's Pawn Shop R : 1 One of the strongest cards in the set. It totally messes up gun-deck or even worse with specific equipment. You have keep your extra rowan rings in your hand when playing Tariq or Tyler decks, for example. > Ghouled C : 2 In what decks? > Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. Also a very strong card. In mid-game and later, one blood on a vampire is really useful and sometimes gamewinning. They´re always on my mind when I´m building a new deck. 4 or 5 is good number if your total masters are 14 or 15. Try them! > Rant! C : 1 Try it with DoC and Madrigal. > Stolen Police Cruiser R : 1 Strong card. Two great benefits, low cost and small drawback. Anarch only, but it´s almost worth the generic action. > Sunset Strip, Hollywood R : 1 Strong card. A great place to have your Festivo. > Year of Fortune C : 1 Replaces Rumors of Gehenna as the default "nice vote". Maybe a 2. /Mathias

On 18 Aug 2003 16:54:49 +0300, <h...@iki.RemoveThisToReply.fi> (Janne Hägglund) scrawled: >dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) writes: > >> > Irregular Protocol C : 1, can still be useful, especially against Awe / VC >> >> No, it sucks. Compare to Delaying Tactics and about 6 other reactive >> vote cards, and you'll see it is way under par. You Tap. You have to >> be an Anarch. It costs a blood. Not worth it. > >Irregular Protocol [Anarchs:C] >Cardtype: Reaction >Cost: 1 blood >Only usable during a referendum. >Tap this reacting vampire to force the acting vampire to abstain from voting >(this can cancel that vampire's votes). > > > Nope, does *not* require an Anarch. > > No wonder you thought this card sucked. it still sucks. his other points remain valid. :P [ quoted text not captured ]

On 18 Aug 2003 06:31:45 -0700, dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) scrawled: >> Magazine R : 2 > >Huh? Surely there is no possible reason as to why you would want to >waste a card slot storing an ammo card on a gun. Surely you should >just add another ammo card! it allows you to reuse your ammo. so you _don't_ need s many ammo cards in your deck. so you can put more good cards in instead. >> Nosferatu Bestial R : 1 > >This is a great card! It's maybe not as strong as a 3rd Trad, but the >"recruit ally" potential is huge. 2 at least. well, 'employ retainer' ability, rather. >> Sword of Troile R : 1 (too many conditions for such a cost ; Pot and Pre >> usually aren't what you need in Brujah weapon decks - you already have POT, >> and don't care about Pre !!) > >The PRE isn't there for the combat, it's so you can bleed / vote a lot >stronger. Imagine the power of this with a Heidleburg... In all >honesty, I'd AVOID combat with this and use it as a skill booster. my predator got this on mazz. damn it was annoying (In a bruise/vote deck no less) [ quoted text not captured ]

> Irregular Protocol C : 1, can still be useful, especially against Awe / VC No, it sucks. Compare to Delaying Tactics and about 6 other reactive vote cards, and you'll see it is way under par. You Tap. You have to be an Anarch. It costs a blood. Not worth it. (question: Other than you Anarch Revolters, who actually intends to play with reactive vote cards anyway?) ---- you tap, true, but you DON'T need to be an anarch. you can stop, say, arika playing bew. or. + awe from having a SINGLE vote... and that's worse than the other cards HOW? and btw, being one of these anarch revolters, I used it at least once to cause a vote to fail... causing my prey to loose 2 pool with political backlash. if my ventrue hadn't been in torpor, it vould have been more.... but for some strange reason no one seemed to like me in that game... *sniff*

>From another thread, it looks like many Anarch cards are judged "lame" ; >some are pretty good, though, but how many ? Was this extension useful or >not, what did you think of it ? Not many. I think the vampires, in general, are useful for fitting into established archetypes but aren't particularly interesting. I think the library cards add very little to the game, pretty much just a permanent vote option and a very small number of power cards in terms of the grand scheme of things. I'm basically in the same place I was (for too many months) pre-Anarchs. I have little enthusiasm for building decks. I haven't gotten to every idea (of course), but I'm discouraged by the perception that it will only get harder to create decks that are original, both from other people's ideas as well as old ones of my own, and that are any good. One or the other is simple; the combination is still possible; but, the path is a dark one as long as expansions do little to shake up the environment. Though CE wasn't even an expansion, I felt it gave more to do than Anarchs. >And let's not forget that the extension, as many of the recent ones, was a >lot about vampires too... I'll break these up into 3 groups. The first are ones that I've rated above average, which means they might be good or might be great. The second are ones I've rated below average. The third are ones I haven't rated for whatever reason. And, I won't mention the rest. Good+: Danielle Diron Horrock Nadima Torvus Bloodbeard Zayyat Quentin (adv) Christopher Houghton Michael Luther Lia Milliner Lucita (adv) Velya Elena MV Bad: Hanna Redmonds Nedal, The Careless Sandra White Tusk (adv) Martin Franckel Marcus (adv) Ali Kar Elizabeth Westcott Feo Ramos Unrated: Bothwell Gustavo Morales Sarah Raines Sophia Watson Clarissa Steinburgen Harry Reese Scarlet Joseph O'Grady >Also, I won't "judge" that whole Anarch thing : if a card is good for an >Anarch, I will rate it well, not wondering if it really is worth it to >become an Anarch anyway. I do factor in the Anarch thing. Lot of the cards that require an anarch aren't remotely good enough to encourage someone to become anarch. One of the rather large problems with the set is that there's hardly any reason to become anarch. Comes back to bite those cards that require an anarch. My initial ratings have likely changed as I've increasingly lost interest in turning minions into anarchs. There was an article in Scrye which had the top 4 library cards (in the writer's opinion, of course) from Anarchs. Besides agreeing that those are among the better cards, I'd add to the list of nonreprints that are above average: Life in the City, Fee Stakes (without which, there'd be zero reason for anarch decks), Drum of Xipe Totec, Repo Man, and maybe Sunset Strip and Unlicensed Taxicab. As this post has gone on quite long, I think I'll pass on the list of inferior library cards. There are points of disagreement with others, but oh well. I will finish with one random comment. Dummy Corporation is far better in limited play. Unfortunately, a lot of the other cards I'm not going to put into constructed decks due to having better options I can't say that about.

>Below is the list of the new (not reprints) Anarch cards, with a very >personnal rating I put on it, ranking from 0 (Laaaaaaame !!!) to 3 (really >great !). Feel free to comment, rate in your way, etc. I'll have to make this post brief but wow! We differ in opinion on a lot of cards. >Aranthebes, The Immortal R : 2 Definitely a 3. Aranthebes is one of the best cards in the set. Most people I know seem to agree. >Bleeding the Vine R : 0 !!! It looks at first like a good card, but it >costs pool, and you don't even have the "surprise factor" ; I have two for >trade... 0? Definitely a 3. *Extremely* potent. Best part is that you don't need to spend a pool when you don't want to. It doesn't burn (it just stays tapped). You use this in a relatively fast deck. Costs you a pool a turn but ensures that your prey doesn't get any pool gain (outside of maybe Art Scam). If you can bleed or vote him out faster than the one pool a turn from Bleeding, you'll be fine. >Fee Stakes : 2 because it gives new voting options ; not 3 because it can be >destroyed, and there are only 6 to contest... Fee Stakes are harder to destroy than you think. The "non-Anarch titles worth one less vote" makes it harder than you'd think. >Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. Excellent card. Very useful. And beats forced hunts any day. >The Mole C2 : 1, because it can't be used on anarchs. Excellent card. At least a 2. Celerity intercept, Dominate cancels a bleed, and Animalism untap for non-bleed actions! >Molotov Cocktail C : 1 (burn after Combat Ends !!!) :-( At least a 2. Just wrong with Trap decks. >Snipe Hunt C : 0 Oh my god! Ultimate weenie hoser! Shuts down those weenie Hack, Potence, or Dom/Pre decks! >Sword of Nuln R : 2 Really? I've always found it to be rather weak. Tremere can fetch it with Magic but they've never really excelled at melee combat. Maybe if you use Potence and Pushing the Limit but you're probably better off with IG + Torn Signpost + THA hand strikes. Halcyan 2

In message <3f40bffb$0$27974$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>, Reyda <true_...@hotmail.com> writes: >> Body Bag C : 0 ; it requires an Anarch, cost 2 blood... At 1 it would >have >> been playable. > >1 or 2-I'd rate it better because it can shut down a rushing deck long >enough for you to sweep the table. You also become immune to temptations, >spirit marionnette, as long as you can gain blood in one way or another. =) Additionally, it doesn't actually cost two. (It costs two blood to use.) If it did, it would be quite poor, since you couldn't pre- emptively equip it before realising your opponent *isn't* playing the Brujah rush deck you were expecting, but actually a Brujah bleed and vote deck. (Or whatever.) You lose the action, but not the blood. >> Border Skirmish C2 : 1, because Harbingers can use it ; for everybody >else, >> it is useless. > >mmm... i think it really pisses of everyone on the table. The good thing is >you untap at the end of the turn : ready for deflections or delaying tactics >=) True, but it's so uncontrolled... It's also one of those cards that says "Hey, I'm going to annoy you." Probably not enough to make someone actively rush you from the other side of the table, but possibly enough to get someone mildly annoyed enough to withhold a critical vote in a blood hunt, or something. "He made me discard my Archon Investigation!" >> Carnivale R : 2 > >?? one of the worst card ever printed ! why not put a damn obfuscate card on >your toreador ? Two cards needed that way. No, it's not a great card. I probably wouldn't play it. But, consider that to include a stealth module in your Toreador deck is going to require a handful of Obfuscate masters and accompanying Obfuscate cards. You need the master and you need the cards. You don't get one, you can't play the other. If the Obfuscate is Suddenly Reversed (and Obfuscate, like Dominate, is one of those sideline disciplines which will make me raise my eyebrows at a deck, so if I have a Bleeding the Vine or Sudden Reversal on hand, I'm going to think "A Toreador deck playing Obfuscate? Ack, that sounds nasty"), you get the Obfuscate card stuck in your hand. This way, you get 1 card which gives you the skill and the stealth. Yes, of course, it's (very) temporary. But if you only need a little stealth, it *may* be advantageous to not have to rely quite so heavily on tricky card flow with skill cards and unskilled vampires. Bear in mind that Group 1 Toreador have ZERO Obfuscate. Group 2 and 3 have six vampires between them, a six, a seven, two nines and two tens. You're not going to have *that* much chance of cycling the cards, unless the deck is heavily biased towards these vampires. (Which you might do - Suzanne looks to be a pretty incredible vampire.) If it were a trifle - or perhaps could have been made a trifle by burning blood or pool or something - I'd think about it more. As it is, I might put one or two into a Toreador deck, just maybe. >> Cry Wolf R2 : 1 ; I think it will see very little light except in some >> weird decks ; of course, if you can turn it into an Abomination it is much >> more interesting... > >2- I'm sure it's a good card. Try to summon it to counter the bad side >effect of being blocked. I'm pretty sure it can be a good surprise in a >Daughter, !/ Salubri deck which never relies on allies. Not just that, it's a good combat creature. Yes, obviously, you can't use it the turn it's recruited, so you can only get them out every few turns (especially if it doesn't die in the first combat), but being able to take an action and Freak to get a nice weenie killer strikes me as a good deal. The Daughters, as you suggest, look to do well here - a fair chunk of Fortitude, and no real combat punch, and the potential for a couple of Barons. A Ventrue/!Ventrue deck wouldn't do too badly either, if it were taking the Anarch route. >> Drum of Xipe Totec R : 2 > >1- yeah ? your opponent plays drawing out the beast and suddenly you lose >CEL. What doesn't work, I feel, is that - unlike the Thaumaturgy and Necromancy options - Celerity doesn't have enough "Ooh" factor to make you think "I'll include it in a deck that wants it". But Celerity does seem to be one of those disciplines where when you want it, you really want it - you need the Flash *and* the Blur *and* the Sideslip in a combat, so I wouldn't fancy having too many vampires in a Celeritous deck without any form of Celerity. And if they have inferior, a skill card might be a better investment. I'd be interested in a mechanic (a card, an ally, a location, whatever) that allowed more skill cards to come out, mind. >> Dummy Corporation C : 1, but still lame. > >2- a very tricky card ! Plus, you decide to burn it whenever you want, (run >out of deflections) I'd play it associated with Archon investigations for >the sake of luring bleeders ;) I'm a big fan. People forget about it. You play a relatively slow deck and it gives you some early defence. (Which might be better on Jake Washington, perhaps, to block that first bleed?) You play it early, and someone comes in the late game thinking "I need to bleed him with this one and this one..." and suddenly you have another "block" to one of their bleeds that they overlook. I really like it. >> Fee Stakes : 2 because it gives new voting options ; not 3 because it can >be >> destroyed, and there are only 6 to contest... > >the votes are your if the action passes. no referendum. Pass two fee stakes >in one turn and you're ready to go. That tactic does require you to have both of them in your hand at once (or redraw luckily). A case for Storage Annexes, perhaps? >> Gambit Accepted R : 3 !!! This card is a must in all "fast" decks, and >you >> can even put many in game !! Although I've seen it backfire at its player >> more often than I've seen it make him win... > >i don't know if it's so good. At least it can help you kill wall decks that >do nothing and hang up here for the VP of last "meth standing" =) Possibly - that wall deck is possibly packing a chunk of Bleeding the Vine for itself. If you *are* going to play a Wall deck, it strikes me as likely that the best option is to play some sort of resource denial in it. >> Highway Haven: RV C : 0 > >2-hey i like this card ! it helps you avoid trap combat, and is an incentive >for people not coming at you (they stay tapped on the next turn) Not just an incentive... if they do send that vampire at you to torporise you, even if it does torporise it, it still doesn't untap. Along with Body Bag (which you can't stack, oh well) it's a nice way of slowing a rush deck down. And you can bring it out *before* you become Anarch, and it gets better later. No, you wouldn't want it on its own (a Hawg's a better choice, if you really want those presses) but being able to cycle a little quicker may save you the blood and let you get a Galaric's Legacy out. >> Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. > >1 or 2 - it does not really cost a master phase. It's a free blood on a >vampire of your choice. Pwerful effect especially in the endgame. But it >costs a card slot, you may say. As I've mentioned before, it's not too bad when you play it as an Ascendance via a Blood Doll, either. >> Magazine R : 2 > >1- ammo cards are so cornercase =/ Less so these days. They were a lot more corner case when you couldn't use guns sensibly, but I think some gun decks stand a better chance these days. Imagine a Toreador deck that Conceals out a Deer Rifle before range, still before range throws down a Magazine and a Manstopper Rounds (+1 per strike) and you have a potentially nasty - but obviously card intensive - situation. That vampire can then, with Blur, maneuver twice, and do four (or six) damage at range - which it can probably stand a bloody good chance at getting. Of course, you could just go for Ammo cards yourself, but if you're planning on using a vampire as blocker, or something, being able to repeatably get out defence to which someone can't say "Oh, he'll run out soon, he can't have *that* many Skins of Steel" isn't too bad. >> Mob Rule C : 2 > >1 too random =/ Think Business Pressure/Telepathic Vote Counting. A similar combo is possible here. (And if they don't use the Mob Rule, you don't have to play the TVC. Yet.) Or, indeed, a deck like a Setite Temptation deck. Do I spend the blood to fail your Free States Rant, or will I just get to the Temptation even quicker then? I think that it might be a good way to get people to indiscriminately spend blood without really thinking of the consequences quite so heavily. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

In message <9e10847c.03081...@posting.google.com>, hamdamcwa <dave...@hotmail.com> writes: >(question: Other than >you Anarch Revolters, who actually intends to play with reactive vote >cards anyway?) Daughters of Cacophony decks can include them, for the flexibility angle because Madrigal at mel/MEL (but not pre) can be used as a reaction card *or* an action modifier. [ quoted text not captured ]

(snip opening) I'll dig through and comment where I feel up to it. :) > > Also, I won't "judge" that whole Anarch thing : if a card is good for an > Anarch, I will rate it well, not wondering if it really is worth it to > become an Anarch anyway. IMO, Anarchs principally benefit independant voters > and weenie toolbox, time will tell how really useful that mechanism can be. > > Banshee Ironwail R : 1 (who needs a Unique Bang Nakh ??) Holy Blocker, Batman! Solid weapon for Eagle's Sighters and wall decks. Not quite as super-awesome as Sniper Rifle but the special is tres anti-S:CE. > Body Bag C : 0 ; it requires an Anarch, cost 2 blood... At 1 it would have > been playable. Honestly, give it a 1. It can save an Anarch's bacon (and Secure Haven is unique!!!). It's a minion-card version of A Few Good Masters. > Carnivale R : 2 Agreed with the "Just use Obfuscate" comment, but give it a 1 for style purposes at least. > Diversion C2 : 1 ; no doubt the best multi-use card, but it ain't good > enough to justify clogging your hand with useless combat before you succeed > in becoming Anarch, IMO. Brah! Thought you weren't going to consider the Anarch thing? This card is a > Gift of Experience R2 : 1 (you get tapped !!!) :-( Saves pool, transfers, and crypt space. Quit whining :) > Improvised Tactics C2 :1 Slammin' potence ability! > Into the Fire C : 2 (long needed, although marginally useful) Lets ya use all those cool Sabbat-only cards. w00t. I guess losing your title could be possible if you want Sir Walter Anarch. > Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. DUDE! Lots of vamps can use a free blood every now and then. As a trifle, the only thing it takes up is deck space. Keep those guys from hunting! > The Mole C2 : 1, because it can't be used on anarchs. Then use it to block the vampires who try to Go Anarch to avoid The Mole :) > Regarhagan's Hold R2 : 0 Forced Awakening? Bounce? At least a 1 for annoyance value. > Smash and Grab C2 : 0 At least 1 or 2 copies in an Anarch deck with the discipline(s). Blowing up Locations is almost always worthwhile. > Sword of Nuln R : 2 Looks fun, but I'm not impressed. Doesn't work with THA strikes or under IG. More of a toy than a useful addition to Clan Tremere's arsenal. Yeah. Dorrinal.

> I'll have to make this post brief but wow! We differ in opinion on a lot of > cards. That is good, too. I don't have time right now to answer all those mails, but I've seen here many different opinions, and even heard a few arguments which would make me review my opinions on some cards (usually just by 1 on the ratings system I proposed). Glad I started the thread. I came back from work, and, wow, so many different views on the same cards !!! But a few things seem to be considered by the majority, like some cards liked / disliked, and maybe the fact that the only valid reason for becoming Anarchs may be the Fee Stakes (although few people expressed themselves on that subject). I'll re-make comments tomorrow if I find the time, and in the meanwhile... Keep commenting !! Orpheus

On 18 Aug 2003 09:52:38 -0700, de...@hell.is (hawk_the_demon) scrawled: >> Irregular Protocol C : 1, can still be useful, especially against Awe / VC > >No, it sucks. Compare to Delaying Tactics and about 6 other reactive >vote cards, and you'll see it is way under par. You Tap. You have to >be an Anarch. It costs a blood. Not worth it. (question: Other than >you Anarch Revolters, who actually intends to play with reactive vote >cards anyway?) >---- > >you tap, true, but you DON'T need to be an anarch. >you can stop, say, arika playing bew. or. + awe from having a SINGLE >vote... >and that's worse than the other cards HOW? it's worse than a superior Pulling Strings by: costing a blood tapping you. >and btw, being one of these anarch revolters, I used it at least once >to cause a vote to fail... causing my prey to loose 2 pool with >political backlash. if you prey was using bewitching oration and awe to merely burn one of your anarch revolts, i'd be inclined to not be overly worried. if they weren't using those cards, i'm pretty sure you'd have been better off with dread gaze and/or surprise influence, possibly over several vampires (like the one that played political backlash, who was untapped. that vampire, in addition to the guy that had irregular protoplasm, could have played other 'vote it down' cards) >if my ventrue hadn't been in torpor, it vould have been more.... but >for some strange reason no one seemed to like me in that game... >*sniff* heh. no one like an anarch revolt deck. ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

agzocgud expounded: > > Ghouled C : 2 > In what decks? Anything with Mortal Allies especially if you have Improvised Tactics (1 potence strike that you can use each round).

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:28:50 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> scrawled: >I'd be interested in a mechanic (a card, an ally, a location, whatever) >that allowed more skill cards to come out, mind. Like Lord Ashton? [ quoted text not captured ]

Orpheus expounded: > liked / disliked, and maybe the fact that the only valid reason for becoming > Anarchs may be the Fee Stakes (although few people expressed themselves on > that subject). Could well be worth going anarch for blood gain -looking at the Ravnos in particular though I haven't tried it.

salem expounded: > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:28:50 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> > scrawled: > > >I'd be interested in a mechanic (a card, an ally, a location, whatever) > >that allowed more skill cards to come out, mind. > > Like Lord Ashton? Exactly like him... except for a decent Clan ;-P

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:57:34 +0100, Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.com> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] aside from the fact that your ally isn't an anarch, Improvised Tactics is not a strike card. it merely gives you the option to strike for 2R at long range. which is a potence strike, but the IT is still not a strike card. [ quoted text not captured ]

My Top 5 from Anarchs, based on the Utility/Versatility/Funkability school of thought. 1. Aranthebes, the Immortal. Without a doubt my top pick. Doubles of this card will go into every non-Storyline tourney deck I ever build. He rocks. 2. Bleeding the Vine. This card is enough to shut down the pool gain of a great many decks. It's mere presence is enough to jam your prey's hand with grey, and results in endless hours of amusement as you watch the internal debate waged behind your prey's normally steely gaze. "Should i ditch the Minion Tap? Is he really going to leave it untapped AGAIN next turn?" 3. Gambit Accepted. It takes balls to play this card. Balls like coconuts. And whilst elephantitis of the scrotum is normally a hindrance to modern living, around the VTES table, goolies count. 1 pool and a free 1 point bleed against your prey every turn never hurts either. 4. Chiram's Hold. Two of these go into pretty much every deck I make that has any hope of blocking. No matter what you're putting on it, from majesty to psyche! to simple dodges, it hurts. Blood counts, and only needs a little help to start running out at the most inopportune times. Speaking of which, last but not least 5. Life in the City. A little love goes a long way. noodleboy

[ quoted text not captured ] And these Allies are? And they are made anarchs with? And they get a good forward preassure with? And they are better than a potence deck beacause? And you include (waste) how many cards to get a bad engine running? This card sucks (but can still be rather funny to play). /Mathias

"Timlagor" <Timlagor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:MPG.19ab865ab...@news.freeserve.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Nope. This won't work. But rom gypsies throwing sewer lids is at last a reality =)

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:o5t2kvk8tc5qkjk9a...@4ax.com... > On 18 Aug 2003 09:52:38 -0700, de...@hell.is (hawk_the_demon) > scrawled: > > >> Irregular Protocol C : 1, can still be useful, especially against Awe / VC > > > >No, it sucks. Compare to Delaying Tactics and about 6 other reactive > >vote cards, and you'll see it is way under par. You Tap. You have to > >be an Anarch. It costs a blood. Not worth it. (question: Other than > >you Anarch Revolters, who actually intends to play with reactive vote > >cards anyway?) > >---- > > > >you tap, true, but you DON'T need to be an anarch. > >you can stop, say, arika playing bew. or. + awe from having a SINGLE > >vote... > >and that's worse than the other cards HOW? > > it's worse than a superior Pulling Strings by: > costing a blood > tapping you. yes, but you have the surprise factor in this one ! nobody expects the spanish irregular protocol =) > >and btw, being one of these anarch revolters, I used it at least once > >to cause a vote to fail... causing my prey to loose 2 pool with > >political backlash. > > if you prey was using bewitching oration and awe to merely burn one of > your anarch revolts, i'd be inclined to not be overly worried. > > if they weren't using those cards, i'm pretty sure you'd have been > better off with dread gaze and/or surprise influence (...) you 're clearly underestimating the minion tap / bewitching / voter cap combo which is clearly one of the big motor for bloat decks. Really ! I agree that when your pred' or prey has 4 titled vampires on the table, there's something bad going for you anyway. But on his early turns, when he'll have the combo (vote + bewitching + (stealth) + voter cap), trust me he will minion tap for 6 or 7 and try to pass this vote : if you play your irregular protocol at this time you can really, really hamper his decks because he just wasted an action and failed to bloat as intended. You just require to have an untapped vampire, which can be a newly influenced vampire. It's that simple. It can be used in *any* deck, not even depending on the vampire you play. I don't know how your environment is (yes, i know it sounds a little vicious to use this phrase, sorry) but here people tend to rely on one strong voter, which will be the main bloat machine. Smaller vamp will also call votes anyway, and you won't have enough delaying tactics to stop them all. Why not mix Irregular protocol and Delaying tactics in your existing deck next time , just to see what it can add to your deck ? =)

<h...@iki.RemoveThisToReply.fi> (Janne Hägglund) wrote in message news:<m2zni7g...@etemenanki.homelinux.net>... > dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) writes: > > > > Irregular Protocol C : 1, can still be useful, especially against Awe / VC > > > > No, it sucks. Compare to Delaying Tactics and about 6 other reactive > > vote cards, and you'll see it is way under par. You Tap. You have to > > be an Anarch. It costs a blood. Not worth it. > > Irregular Protocol [Anarchs:C] > Cardtype: Reaction > Cost: 1 blood > Only usable during a referendum. > Tap this reacting vampire to force the acting vampire to abstain from voting > (this can cancel that vampire's votes). > > > Nope, does *not* require an Anarch. > > No wonder you thought this card sucked. OK, so I fluffed that. Still sucks like a donkey though. Compare to Delaying Tactics - you tap and vote still continues = sucks. Compare to Pulling Strings - you tap and burn a blood, but don't have to have Dominate = Sucks. Get dominate! Compare to Kindred Coercion - you tap and burn less blood, but you only effect one vampire compared to X, which will kill the table as far as votes go = Sucks, get Dominate! Compare to Surprise Influence - You tap, burn a blood, and cancel some votes. A lot more work for the votes, so Sucks. Compare to Dread Gaze - You tap, burn a blood, and cancel some votes. A lot more work for the votes, so Really Sucks. Compare to Conflict of Interests - Does roughly the same if you're of the same clan. Not quite as corner case so Actually About the Same!!! (Shocker) So it's just about on a par with one of the other 6 reactive voting cards, and worse compared to the other 5. You know what to do... (get Dominate). DH

salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<qkr1kvkcvp5oev8ep...@4ax.com>... > On 18 Aug 2003 06:31:45 -0700, dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) > scrawled: > > >> Magazine R : 2 > > > >Huh? Surely there is no possible reason as to why you would want to > >waste a card slot storing an ammo card on a gun. Surely you should > >just add another ammo card! > > it allows you to reuse your ammo. so you _don't_ need s many ammo > cards in your deck. so you can put more good cards in instead. Just read it - it's not as bad as I thought. I assumed the ammo would get burned after combat in the usual way, but reading it again I guess not. Still means that you have to include an extra working part in the deck, and how many Ammo cards do you usually add to a deck anyway? No more than 4 at all, right? > >> Nosferatu Bestial R : 1 > > > >This is a great card! It's maybe not as strong as a 3rd Trad, but the > >"recruit ally" potential is huge. 2 at least. > > well, 'employ retainer' ability, rather. Sorry, thinking two jumps ahead: War Ghouls. I'm thinking a Nossie / Tzimisce crossover (strong on Animalism and Obfuscate) that makes getting War Ghouls easy - Cloaks and Bestials. > >> Sword of Troile R : 1 (too many conditions for such a cost ; Pot and Pre > >> usually aren't what you need in Brujah weapon decks - you already have POT, > >> and don't care about Pre !!) > > > >The PRE isn't there for the combat, it's so you can bleed / vote a lot > >stronger. Imagine the power of this with a Heidleburg... In all > >honesty, I'd AVOID combat with this and use it as a skill booster. > > my predator got this on mazz. damn it was annoying (In a bruise/vote > deck no less) My tip would be with someone with fortitude and CEL - Brachah perhaps? DH

"hamdamcwa" <dave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > >> Sword of Troile R : 1 (too many conditions for such a cost ; Pot and Pre > > >> usually aren't what you need in Brujah weapon decks - you already have POT, > > >> and don't care about Pre !!) > > my predator got this on mazz. damn it was annoying (In a bruise/vote > > deck no less) > > My tip would be with someone with fortitude and CEL - Brachah perhaps? Even Volker or bianca can benefit this nice little toy =)

Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19ab8817c...@news.freeserve.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I have an Anarch Ravnos, Horrid Reality deck based around Kostantin/Etienne/Andrei that benifited greatly from Anarchs. Packs a number of Life in the City, and loads of Moles to protect The Rack. Kostantin is "the man" for The Mole. Diversion is a killer with an Assult Rifle. Probably one of the few decks that loves Filchwares Pawnshop (Kostantin *loves* the Pawnshop :) But yes, one of the very few decks that benfifts from Anarchs, and even then it is more fun than strong. Jim Still dubious about the Anarch mechanic.

"hamdamcwa" <dave...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet news:9e10847c.03081...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] What you're missing is the most important: Anyone, even Smudge can cancel all of Arikas 20 votes with one card! I think the card is great, even if you have dominate, since you can still play this card AND pulling strings with the same vampire! Great for this deck (which Henrik Oscarsson invented) Deck Name: Edvard Vignes for president Created By: Description: This deck handles everything. You can't rush Edvard (only bring him out in rush-heavy seating), you can't vote and you can't bleed. When Edvard is low on blood after many deflections, burn him with a govern+cond+daring bleed and get a new one out. Crypt: --------------------------------------------- 4 Edward Vignes DOM PRE for 6, Ventrue 1 Diana Vick dom pre 3, Ventrue 1 Lana Butcher dom for 3, Ventrue 2 Ingrid Russo DOM for 4, Ventrue Antitribu 2 Ranjan Rishi DOM for PRE 5, Ventrue 1 Samson dom 2, Ventrue Antitribu 1 Vanessa aus DOM FOR pre 6, Ventrue Antitribu Library: (91 cards) ------------------- Master (26 cards) 8 Anarch Revolt 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 1 Elysium: The Arboretum 3 Blood Doll 2 Demonstration 1 Hostile Takeover 1 Life Boon 2 Parthenon, The 1 Corporate Hunting Ground 1 Secure Haven 2 Storage Annex 1 Uptown Hunting Ground 2 Ventrue Headquarters Action (5 cards) 5 Govern the Unaligned Action Modifier (10 cards) 5 Conditioning 5 Daring the Dawn Political Action (4 cards) 1 Rumors of Gehenna 3 Ventrue Justicar Reaction (45 cards) 11 Deflection 7 Redirection 2 Delaying Tactics 4 Dread Gaze 4 Elder Kindred Network 5 Pulling Strings 4 Irregular Protocol 4 Surprise Influence 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness This deck was last saved at 11:34:16 on 2003-08-19

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> escribió en el mensaje news:3f41e2ae$0$5132$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Hey! Don't forget "the provider" Black Cat: And it only costs 2 pool to her.

In message <tet2kv07diu9ea23q...@4ax.com>, salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> writes: >On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:28:50 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> >scrawled: >>I'd be interested in a mechanic (a card, an ally, a location, whatever) >>that allowed more skill cards to come out, mind. > >Like Lord Ashton? I was thinking more generic. (But potentially costly at the same time.) [ quoted text not captured ]

<snip> > > So it's just about on a par with one of the other 6 reactive voting > > cards, and worse compared to the other 5. You know what to do... (get > > Dominate). > > What you're missing is the most important: Anyone, even Smudge can cancel all of Arikas 20 votes > with one card! I'm not missing it. Delaying tactics does sort-of the same wihout tapping the vampire, and without being a card DESTINED ONLY FOR ANARCH REVOLT DECKS. > I think the card is great, even if you have dominate, since you can still play this card AND pulling > strings with the same vampire! Great for this deck (which Henrik Oscarsson invented) OK, so you like Anarch Revolt decks. However, they suck. Truely suck. The experience of playing an Anarch Revolt deck is similar to reading a very bad book that you get free on the cover of certain glossy ladies magazines - cheap, and embarassing if anyone else finds out. Playing AGAINST one is an experience similar to nailing beer to a wall - frustrating, pointless, and a waste of time and resources. Really, is there anyone out there who can honestly say "I like playing with lots of Anarch Revolts in my deck as I find it a challenging and exciting way to spend an afternoon". NO. Not even you, random "me too-er", you are lying just to further wind me up. Anarch Revolt is the suckiest card of all time. Forget your Parity Shift, ignore your Temptation of Greater Power, Anarch Revolt is THE most abusive card in the game, and MUST be errated to the "Unique" status that it deserves (i.e. only 1 Anarch Revolt can be in play at a time). At LEAST give it a pool cost. It is not a nice card. This is the reason why Irregular Protocol sucks THE MOST - it totally encourages the Elder Kindred Networking that comes out during an Anarch Revolt. It makes me so mad I just wanna go play in the road.... ****GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR**** > Deck Name: Edvard Vignes for president > Created By: > Description: This deck handles everything. You can't rush Edvard (only bring him out in rush-heavy > seating), you can't vote and you can't bleed. When Edvard is low on blood after many deflections, > burn him with a govern+cond+daring bleed and get a new one out. > > Crypt: > --------------------------------------------- > 4 Edward Vignes DOM PRE for 6, Ventrue > 1 Diana Vick dom pre 3, Ventrue > 1 Lana Butcher dom for 3, Ventrue > 2 Ingrid Russo DOM for 4, Ventrue Antitribu > 2 Ranjan Rishi DOM for PRE 5, Ventrue > 1 Samson dom 2, Ventrue Antitribu > 1 Vanessa aus DOM FOR pre 6, Ventrue Antitribu > > Library: (91 cards) > ------------------- > Master (26 cards) > 8 Anarch Revolt NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [ quoted text not captured ] Oh Piss off, you Anarch Revolt deck maker. I am NOT amused. :P DH

In message <9e10847c.0308...@posting.google.com>, hamdamcwa <dave...@hotmail.com> writes: >> What you're missing is the most important: Anyone, even Smudge can cancel all of Arikas 20 votes >> with one card! > >I'm not missing it. Delaying tactics does sort-of the same wihout >tapping the vampire, and without being a card DESTINED ONLY FOR ANARCH >REVOLT DECKS. The point is rather that you can *fail* one of the nasty votes (Baltimore Purge, Banishment, Dramatic Upheaval, that sort of thing) rather than simply handing it back to them to use the following turn. For similar reasons, I'm mildly interested by Mob Rule. With some of the nasty votes that are available these days, I'm not sure that handing them back to players is a good idea. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> skrev i meddelandet news:8NMnSYibgjQ$Ew...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <9e10847c.0308...@posting.google.com>, hamdamcwa > <dave...@hotmail.com> writes: > >> What you're missing is the most important: Anyone, even Smudge can cancel all of Arikas 20 votes > >> with one card! > > > >I'm not missing it. Delaying tactics does sort-of the same wihout > >tapping the vampire, and without being a card DESTINED ONLY FOR ANARCH > >REVOLT DECKS. > > The point is rather that you can *fail* one of the nasty votes > (Baltimore Purge, Banishment, Dramatic Upheaval, that sort of thing) > rather than simply handing it back to them to use the following turn. > > For similar reasons, I'm mildly interested by Mob Rule. > > With some of the nasty votes that are available these days, I'm not sure > that handing them back to players is a good idea. > Ha ha ha... look at this everybody! James Coupe thinks that Baltimore's Purge is a vote card!!! =)

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:45:47 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >The point is rather that you can *fail* one of the nasty votes >(Baltimore Purge, Banishment, Dramatic Upheaval, that sort of thing) Nitpick. Baltimore Purge isn't a vote. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<9gc1kvcbmc7p9vsch...@4ax.com>... > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:23:52 +0200, "Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> > scrawled: > > >Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. > > This i take as a personal insult. which i shouldn't, that's just > stupid, but anyway... > > this card rocks! a trifle, so not really using up your master phase, > and it gets you that much needed extra blood you want to stop one of > your guys hunting, or give that extra blood to pay for that card you > want to play, or even to help out a cross table ally to stop one of > his guys hunting, or to let him block with an empty guy without losing > it to torpor, or whatever. Or to put a blood on that vamp I anathemaed and my prey is keeping empty so I can't pop it. > Matt

In message <6ci4kv0h2sudtlqsa...@4ax.com>, The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes: >>The point is rather that you can *fail* one of the nasty votes >>(Baltimore Purge, Banishment, Dramatic Upheaval, that sort of thing) > >Nitpick. > >Baltimore Purge isn't a vote. Hmm... I wonder what I was thinking of when I typed that. I have no [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I currently run a Blanche Hill bloat deck, where she can get lots of stealth and much blood when she becomes Anarch. Still needs some tuning, but the idea works though. Orpheus

wow, someone has sand in his daiper > I'm not missing it. Delaying tactics does sort-of the same wihout > tapping the vampire, and without being a card DESTINED ONLY FOR ANARCH > REVOLT DECKS. > OK, so you like Anarch Revolt decks. However, they suck. Truely suck. > The experience of playing an Anarch Revolt deck is similar to reading > a very bad book that you get free on the cover of certain glossy > ladies magazines - cheap, and embarassing if anyone else finds out. > Playing AGAINST one is an experience similar to nailing beer to a wall > - frustrating, pointless, and a waste of time and resources. > > Really, is there anyone out there who can honestly say "I like playing > with lots of Anarch Revolts in my deck as I find it a challenging and > exciting way to spend an afternoon". NO. Not even you, random "me > too-er", you are lying just to further wind me up. > > Anarch Revolt is the suckiest card of all time. Forget your Parity > Shift, ignore your Temptation of Greater Power, Anarch Revolt is THE > most abusive card in the game, and MUST be errated to the "Unique" > status that it deserves (i.e. only 1 Anarch Revolt can be in play at a > time). At LEAST give it a pool cost. It is not a nice card. > > This is the reason why Irregular Protocol sucks THE MOST - it totally > encourages the Elder Kindred Networking that comes out during an > Anarch Revolt. It makes me so mad I just wanna go play in the road.... > > ****GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR**** > > NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > Oh Piss off, you Anarch Revolt deck maker. I am NOT amused. > > :P > > DH have you played with the card? because it just sounds like you've been thrashed by it too many times to enjoy the game anymore next try a rant about the Third Tradition, only this time actually form a cohesive argument, or something other than 'it sucks' and 'eat me' -Prince of Harrisburg

Ok, so I'll try to answer to Reyda but to take into account all I've read here : > > Anarch Salon C2 : 1 > > 2-great with blood dolls / tribute to the master I'll stay with 1, because : it can benefit other anarchs on the table, which can't be controlled, and the effect isn't that great anyway. > > Banshee Ironwail R : 1 (who needs a Unique Bang Nakh ??) > > 2-you forgot the special effect when blocking. Which can be decisive when > playing walls, eagle sight... Yes, it can be nice. I didn't forget it, just didn't mention it. I think it will only marginally be interesting. But then, I seldom play Walls decks, and tend to dislike seeing them on a table (they block one player, sometimes two, and seldom win ; but that is another story). Anyway, it still isn't a great equipement in my book. > > Bleeding the Vine R : 0 !!! It looks at first like a good card, but it > > costs pool, and you don't even have the "surprise factor" ; I have two for > > trade... > > 3-who needs the surprise factor ? being able to counter your foes master > card flow is a blessing ! trade them with me then. =p We'll see... ;-) I get the argument that it can be used in some decks. But the surprise factor is essential, and the loss of a pool per turn too, for me. I'd settle for a 0 in non-bloat decks, and a 2 in some very specific decks. > > Body Bag C : 0 ; it requires an Anarch, cost 2 blood... At 1 it would > have > > been playable. > > 1 or 2-I'd rate it better because it can shut down a rushing deck long > enough for you to sweep the table. You also become immune to temptations, > spirit marionnette, as long as you can gain blood in one way or another. =) I get the argument that you don't spend the blood if you aren't rushed ; but still, it looks expensive and marginal to me (plus you have to equip, of course). Ok, let's say 1. > > Border Skirmish C2 : 1, because Harbingers can use it ; for everybody > else, > > it is useless. > > mmm... i think it really pisses of everyone on the table. The good thing is > you untap at the end of the turn : ready for deflections or delaying tactics > =) Making enemies all around the table can't be a good thing. Let's say 0 for everyone, 2 for HoS. > > Car Bomb C : 1 > > it's always a -1 stealth stuff, which would alloy any minion to block. Too > bad you have to tap the bombing vampire =/ Maybe a free, one shot version of > Starshell grenade launcher ? I wonder why I didn't even rate it 0. This really sucks. > > Carnivale R : 2 > > ?? one of the worst card ever printed ! why not put a damn obfuscate card on > your toreador ? For reasons expressed before. I recently played a Tore Obf vote with some success, and I can guarantee you that I didn't regret for one second putting 1 Carnivale in it : it helped Villon get the Changeling Skin Mask, which he would never have gotten otherwise due to two nasty Ravnos enemies. A steath card usable at any time when you don't have any other choice can be great. Also, this is usable in non-obf Tore decks, making them a bit more playable even if you don't have the Aching / Change combo. So, having tested this card in tournament (and made it to the finals in part because of it), I still rate it 2. > > Cry Wolf R2 : 1 ; I think it will see very little light except in some > > weird decks ; of course, if you can turn it into an Abomination it is much > > more interesting... > > 2- I'm sure it's a good card. Try to summon it to counter the bad side > effect of being blocked. I'm pretty sure it can be a good surprise in a > Daughter, !/ Salubri deck which never relies on allies. It is a very, very marginal card, good only in some very focused decks. Until now, I've seen it disappear progressively from all the decks where it was tried. Doesn't deserve more than 1 to me. > > Diversion C2 : 1 ; no doubt the best multi-use card, but it ain't good > > enough to justify clogging your hand with useless combat before you > succeed > > in becoming Anarch, IMO. > > 2-you can become anarch on the first round by spending 2 blood if you really > want. Sure. If you aren't blocked. But as has been said, that musn't be a factor. What I meant is that if you get blocked while trying to become an Anarch, you can't use it, and therefore are quite naked if you rely on it in combat. This is why I think Anarch combat cards ain't that great. Also, as most of the 3-way cards, it is mostly useful for small vampires who have the disciplines in inf. It could deserve a 2 in some decks. > > Drum of Xipe Totec R : 2 > > 1- yeah ? your opponent plays drawing out the beast and suddenly you lose > CEL. > > > Dummy Corporation C : 1, but still lame. > > 2- a very tricky card ! Plus, you decide to burn it whenever you want, (run > out of deflections) I'd play it associated with Archon investigations for > the sake of luring bleeders ;) I'd put it only in the worst decks : the very focused ones with no reactions. Can be useful for DoC, for instance, or for non-reacting weenies. Not much for the rest, though. > > Emissary C : 1 (too costly : Baron, another anarch, tap...) > a cam vampire in torpor can tap to cancel the votes ! but on the other hand > it requires no discipline, and you can untap the tapped anarch via > firebrand... > > > Fee Stakes : 2 because it gives new voting options ; not 3 because it can > be > > destroyed, and there are only 6 to contest... > > the votes are your if the action passes. no referendum. Pass two fee stakes > in one turn and you're ready to go. The votes are yours if no-one else chose to play Anarch votes and contests you ; also, a voter with Pre will have no trouble getting rid of your bothersome titles. Maybe he won't bother if you're playing Carlotta ? ;-) > > Fiendish Tongue C2 : 2 for Tzimisce, 1 for Sabbat... > > 3 for tzimisce, which may untap at the end of the turn. 1 for sabbat, for > them it's a computer hacking. If you wish. I never play Tzimisce anyway, and Sabbat have other choices - if only CH. > > Filchware's Pawn Shop R : 1 > > 2 you can paralyze most gun decks. How is that ??? Surely you must think of some Tem card... > you can fetch a leather jacket in your > prey's ash heapwhen you're a fighter.... Good card. Not bad. Some Tem effects are much better. Does 1.5 satisfy you ? ;-) > > Gambit Accepted R : 3 !!! This card is a must in all "fast" decks, and > you > > can even put many in game !! Although I've seen it backfire at its player > > more often than I've seen it make him win... > > i don't know if it's so good. At least it can help you kill wall decks that > do nothing and hang up here for the VP of last "meth standing" =) It IS risky, and yes it takes balls to play it, but in the right decks it gives you the sweep ; the best part of it is that if you are up against a rusher, you have a chance to kill him even with no minion left !! Great card, even if it will do more damage than good if played blindly by skilless or over-enthusiastic players. > > Gather R : 3 > > 2. Fragile. Granted. > > Highway Haven: RV C : 0 > > 2-hey i like this card ! it helps you avoid trap combat, and is an incentive > for people not coming at you (they stay tapped on the next turn) > > > Improvised Tactics C2 :1 > > 2-this card is great, clearly for the potence effect. Too bad you can play > only one impro tactics per combat, since pot/pro vampire would have a free > .44 each round =) If the Pot effect is the main interest, than get some Pot card !! Thrown Gates does it everytime... > > Irregular Protocol C : 1, can still be useful, especially against Awe / > VC > > 2-yup. Awe/bewitching/voter cap is one of the major bloating machine since > they downgraded 5th trad. So we had very different inputs on that card. I still find it playable, and one more obstacle for vote decks ; but it does have too many downfalls for me to give it more than 1 - which doesn't mean I won't play 1 or 2 as an alternative to Delaying Tactics if I happen to forget to play Dominate in a tournament... ;-) > > Liberty Club Intrigue R : 0. Lame, lame, lame !!! > > sucks ! like many hosers. Right. > > Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. > > 1 or 2 - it does not really cost a master phase. It's a free blood on a > vampire of your choice. Pwerful effect especially in the endgame. But it > costs a card slot, you may say. And I do say. I'll prefer a Blood Doll anytime. A H.G. will cost, but will give you blood every turn. And did I mention I was a big fan of Leonardo ? > > Magazine R : 2 > > 1- ammo cards are so cornercase =/ The gun decks came back in force since CE, and having a permanent ammo in your gun is a great advantage. I'll put one of these in any gun deck with a few ammo cards. Biggest problem : you have to have the Mag and ammo in hand at the same time... :-( > > Mob Rule C : 2 > > 1 too random =/ True. But if you play voting fatties and no Pre, it can be so useful !! I'd put a few in a Lasombra / Private Audience deck, as you probably will be the only one able to use it effectively (Sabbat + above 7 makes for a lot). > > The Mole C2 : 1, because it can't be used on anarchs. > > yes, it's a shame. Same for the Dom effect : why does it have to be a > younger vampire acting ? Right. And the argument that it should be used to block the "becoming anarch" action doesn't work for me : sooner or later, you'll have useless cards in hand. Better give Obt to your !Brujahs or Aus to your Brujahs... > > Molotov Cocktail C : 1 (burn after Combat Ends !!!) :-( > > 2-it's a one shot weapon, pal. i like it, and its anarch-flavored ;) It may be fun for RPG's sake, but it still is a burnable, not usable in the first turn, card. I'd prefer an Improvised Flamethrower in most decks. > > Nosferatu Bestial R : 1 > > 2-i cant really tell. It's unique but it gives you one fresh retainer each > turn when used with Heidelberg... I didn't test it or saw it tested, so I'd grant you a 2 if you've seen it work. Still looks cornercase to me. > > Petra Resonance R : 1 > > 0 dont like the randomness of those cards =/ Agreed, but it is Malkav, and it the randomness can be diminished in many ways. 1 for fun ? > > Rant! C : 1 > > the backlash hurts so much =/ Does too. > > Redline R : 1 > > 3-if you can trick the table into doing what you want, Redline is a marvel. So I'd give 1 to this very cornercase card, and 3 to Reyda's ability to manipulate a table ! ;-) > > Reins of Power C : 3 !!! Power to the big voters !!! > > 2- you meant power to the big vampires... is it so powerful? i doubt so. I won more than a few games because of it. It is both a way to gain pool most of the time if you play big, and a way to make your prey lose pool. It isn't more random than Ancient Influence or Political Stranglehold, and has the double-edged effect. To me, it is one of the best cards introduced in Anarchs, and a good factor in trying to improve the rentability of big vampires. > > Skullduggery C2 : 2 for FoS cycling, but 1 for the rest... > > 0- the presence effect sucks. The other look more like "strategy suport > card" : pro might be interesting if you've got +1 bleed (dylan, or equipped > with laptop'n'stuff). The obf is great when you've got a gun. It is good in Pre / Obf decks for cycling effects ; if you're just looking for Pro stealth, there is much better. Can be useful in some cornercase decks (you know what ? I'd try it in an Anarch Torrance Blood Brothers deck...), hence the 1. > > Smash and Grab C2 : 0 > > 2- the pot and ani effects are great and have inherent stealth. Don't > underestimate smash&grab =) 1 because you will have nightmares if I deny you this small pleasure. But not more, unless you prove me wrong with one of your stupid-yet-efficient tournament decks. > > Sweeper R : 1 > > 0- No really... better put another KRC or a card that will actually help you > to oust your prey ! and it must be called by a baron ! Right. Can be fun in very, very few decks. I have yet to find a place for it anywhere. Let's give it a 1 for now ? > done =) Pfeeeeew, re-done too. Orpheus

Anarch revolt is a precious card. All deck do not allow you to bleed to harm your prey. You may have other strategies (corruption, rush, whatever). Anarch revolt is free. Anarch revolts costs you no action. Anarch revolt thus cannot be blocked. Anarch revolt will make your prey loose pool, guaranteed. I had a very succesful !brujah rush deck which used 6 anarch revolt, 3 fame and it almost always ousted his first two preys, often without a single bleed. Pool lost to the anarch were gaining me a precious time to rush and not worry about my prey gaining pool. About anyone else bloating like a pig while i was doing my job. Because as a side effect, everyone on the table will loose pool and, better, see his prey loos pool, so they will try to take advantage of this fact. As we are frickin' methuselah hungry for victory and VP's, Anarch revolts often compels us to play our deck very differently from what we should expect. Anarch revolts is terrible for people who are not really "in the game". If you are seasoned, you have always a way to take advantage of the revolt. Anarch revolt is also something great because it's good to know that your prey, then your grandprey... will loose pool not during their master phase, but during their untap and they cannot soak this pool damage with any card in their possession. If you can do the right choices, move at the right moment or knock the right vampire down, you are the winner =) I like this card. Maybe more than any other master card. Did i mention Fear of mekhet ? No, Anarch revolt comes first =)

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:P61bPOq8WmQ$Ew...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <6ci4kv0h2sudtlqsa...@4ax.com>, The Lasombra > <TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes: > >>The point is rather that you can *fail* one of the nasty votes > >>(Baltimore Purge, Banishment, Dramatic Upheaval, that sort of thing) > > > >Nitpick. > > > >Baltimore Purge isn't a vote. > > Hmm... I wonder what I was thinking of when I typed that. I have no > idea. maybe you were thinking meddling of semsith which is also related to the last storyline tournament.

In message <3f429b16$0$224$626a...@news.free.fr>, "Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> mumbled something about: >> 2-you forgot the special effect when blocking. Which can be decisive when >> playing walls, eagle sight... > >Yes, it can be nice. I didn't forget it, just didn't mention it. I think it >will only marginally be interesting. But then, I seldom play Walls decks, >and tend to dislike seeing them on a table (they block one player, sometimes >two, and seldom win ; but that is another story). Anyway, it still isn't a >great equipement in my book. Jaroslav Pascek is a monster with this, as is Adonai. Any blocking deck likes it a lot, of course, but Sniper Rifle is still a strong contender for its 'get away from close range crap' factor. >> > Bleeding the Vine R : 0 !!! It looks at first like a good card, but it >> > costs pool, and you don't even have the "surprise factor" ; I have two >for >> > trade... >> >> 3-who needs the surprise factor ? being able to counter your foes master >> card flow is a blessing ! trade them with me then. =p > >We'll see... ;-) Uh, I'll take any you have as well. In a deck built to absorb the pool loss, it is very powerful in place of Sudden Reversals. Tossing a couple in any deck won't work, of course. >I get the argument that it can be used in some decks. But the surprise >factor is essential, and the loss of a pool per turn too, for me. I'd settle >for a 0 in non-bloat decks, and a 2 in some very specific decks. The surprise factor is not essential. Either they save their critical Masters and jam their hand with them, or they go ahead and sacrifice them, making it worth the pool. I give it 3 in decks that are built properly, and 0-1 in any other deck. >> > Fiendish Tongue C2 : 2 for Tzimisce, 1 for Sabbat... >> >> 3 for tzimisce, which may untap at the end of the turn. 1 for sabbat, for >> them it's a computer hacking. > >If you wish. I never play Tzimisce anyway, and Sabbat have other choices - >if only CH. Just because you never play them doesn't make it a bad card. 3 for Tzimisce -- it's unbelievably good. 1 for Sabbat because of the -1 intercept for Anarchs; completely obsoletes Computer Hacking in any Sabbat deck. >> > Gather R : 3 >> >> 2. Fragile. > >Granted. 1. Slow, undefendable against anyone with any sort of stealth at all. >> > Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. >> >> 1 or 2 - it does not really cost a master phase. It's a free blood on a >> vampire of your choice. Pwerful effect especially in the endgame. But it >> costs a card slot, you may say. > >And I do say. I'll prefer a Blood Doll anytime. A H.G. will cost, but will >give you blood every turn. And did I mention I was a big fan of Leonardo ? Leonardo isn't relevant as he is clan-based. HGs cost pool and your Master action, AND combine with this well. Only real cost to this card is a card slot, which is sometimes at a premium. >> > Magazine R : 2 >> >> 1- ammo cards are so cornercase =/ > >The gun decks came back in force since CE, and having a permanent ammo in >your gun is a great advantage. I'll put one of these in any gun deck with a >few ammo cards. Biggest problem : you have to have the Mag and ammo in hand >at the same time... :-( 0. Junk. Ammo cards are barely playable; gun decks have enough cardflow issues to deal with just getting their Concealed Weapons out, without adding in YET MORE card slots dicking around with this. Better to spend the extra pool and get a bigger gun, frankly. >> > Nosferatu Bestial R : 1 >> >> 2-i cant really tell. It's unique but it gives you one fresh retainer each >> turn when used with Heidelberg... > >I didn't test it or saw it tested, so I'd grant you a 2 if you've seen it >work. Still looks cornercase to me. Won the MeatGrinder qualifier at GenCon. 2, easily, but obviously clan-limited. >> > Petra Resonance R : 1 >> >> 0 dont like the randomness of those cards =/ > >Agreed, but it is Malkav, and it the randomness can be diminished in many >ways. 1 for fun ? If you give this card 1 for fun, you need to give Madness of the Bard 3, because it's the same type of "fun". Saving grace -- you can focus it at your prey with some deckbuilding skill. >> > Skullduggery C2 : 2 for FoS cycling, but 1 for the rest... >> >> 0- the presence effect sucks. The other look more like "strategy suport >> card" : pro might be interesting if you've got +1 bleed (dylan, or >equipped >> with laptop'n'stuff). The obf is great when you've got a gun. > >It is good in Pre / Obf decks for cycling effects ; if you're just looking >for Pro stealth, there is much better. Can be useful in some cornercase >decks (you know what ? I'd try it in an Anarch Torrance Blood Brothers >deck...), hence the 1. 2 in any Setite deck, because you have either stealth OR bleed, depending on what you want at the time. >> > Smash and Grab C2 : 0 >> >> 2- the pot and ani effects are great and have inherent stealth. Don't >> underestimate smash&grab =) > >1 because you will have nightmares if I deny you this small pleasure. But >not more, unless you prove me wrong with one of your stupid-yet-efficient >tournament decks. "I vaporize your (insert retainer here)." And much like Haunt, it's a +1 stealth Arson. -- Derek "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - C. Darwin, 1871

> >> 2-you forgot the special effect when blocking. Which can be decisive when > >> playing walls, eagle sight... > > > >Yes, it can be nice. I didn't forget it, just didn't mention it. I think it > >will only marginally be interesting. But then, I seldom play Walls decks, > >and tend to dislike seeing them on a table (they block one player, sometimes > >two, and seldom win ; but that is another story). Anyway, it still isn't a > >great equipement in my book. > > Jaroslav Pascek is a monster with this, as is Adonai. As they are with any weapon. Let's compare to the Bang Nakh : same damage ; one more pool cost ; bearer gets -1 stealth ; action minion burns 1 blood if blocked ; it is Unique. That makes for a lot of downsides to the very nice effect of having the opposing minion burn a blood. Good in the appropriated deck, but that's about it. Oh, I forgot, it's Cold Iron, let's giev it a 3 then ! ;-) > Any blocking deck likes it a lot, of course, but Sniper Rifle is still a > strong contender for its 'get away from close range crap' factor. Sure is. > >> > Bleeding the Vine R : 0 !!! It looks at first like a good card, but it > >> > costs pool, and you don't even have the "surprise factor" ; I have two > >for > >> > trade... > >> > >> 3-who needs the surprise factor ? being able to counter your foes master > >> card flow is a blessing ! trade them with me then. =p > > > >We'll see... ;-) > > Uh, I'll take any you have as well. In a deck built to absorb the pool > loss, it is very powerful in place of Sudden Reversals. Tossing a > couple in any deck won't work, of course. There's a trade on the way, and I'll keep one for the focused decks we're speaking about. > >I get the argument that it can be used in some decks. But the surprise > >factor is essential, and the loss of a pool per turn too, for me. I'd settle > >for a 0 in non-bloat decks, and a 2 in some very specific decks. > > The surprise factor is not essential. Either they save their critical > Masters and jam their hand with them, or they go ahead and sacrifice > them, making it worth the pool. It is a valid strategy. I still believe the surprise can be a very important element, but then, why not include 1 Sudden, and just tap your Bleeding when you get it... ?! :-) > I give it 3 in decks that are built properly, and 0-1 in any other deck. A toast to that. > >> > Fiendish Tongue C2 : 2 for Tzimisce, 1 for Sabbat... > >> > >> 3 for tzimisce, which may untap at the end of the turn. 1 for sabbat, for > >> them it's a computer hacking. > > > >If you wish. I never play Tzimisce anyway, and Sabbat have other choices - > >if only CH. > > Just because you never play them doesn't make it a bad card. Of course not. What I meant is : I can't judge how good it is for them, if they really need it. Looks to me like they have many other ways to untap and react. > 3 for > Tzimisce -- it's unbelievably good. Let's not forget the bleed has to be succesful (no reduction, no block...). I'd say 2 for Tzims, from what I can gather. > 1 for Sabbat because of the -1 > intercept for Anarchs; completely obsoletes Computer Hacking in any > Sabbat deck. Yes, even if the Anarchs decks are far from overflowing the country. > >> > Gather R : 3 > >> > >> 2. Fragile. > > > >Granted. > > 1. Slow, undefendable against anyone with any sort of stealth at all. Yes, but it is SO good when it works !! And people still tend to underestimate it and let it go. Plus, Gangrels now have Aus, and Ani still can serve. I'll give it a 2 anytime, a 3 in Intercept decks. > >> > Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. > >> > >> 1 or 2 - it does not really cost a master phase. It's a free blood on a > >> vampire of your choice. Pwerful effect especially in the endgame. But it > >> costs a card slot, you may say. > > > >And I do say. I'll prefer a Blood Doll anytime. A H.G. will cost, but will > >give you blood every turn. And did I mention I was a big fan of Leonardo ? > > Leonardo isn't relevant as he is clan-based. Why, does anybody not play some Giovanni in all their decks ?!?! That was, of course, a joke. But he IS great enough to think about including some little ones (Marcianna ?) in other bloat decks (like, say, Ventrue maybe...). > HGs cost pool and your > Master action, AND combine with this well. Only real cost to this card > is a card slot, which is sometimes at a premium. A card slot for a blood gain. It could also be used for Giant's Blood, Jake Washington... Still not convinced about this card, sorry. > >> > Magazine R : 2 > >> > >> 1- ammo cards are so cornercase =/ > > > >The gun decks came back in force since CE, and having a permanent ammo in > >your gun is a great advantage. I'll put one of these in any gun deck with a > >few ammo cards. Biggest problem : you have to have the Mag and ammo in hand > >at the same time... :-( > > 0. Junk. Ammo cards are barely playable; gun decks have enough > cardflow issues to deal with just getting their Concealed Weapons out, > without adding in YET MORE card slots dicking around with this. > > Better to spend the extra pool and get a bigger gun, frankly. I haven't tested or seen enough ammo gun decks to judge this. I can tell U I've seen a very efficient weenie rush Dragon Breath deck, which would have gained in card flow from this card, and I'm sure some others would too. I think 0 is still a bit severe. > >> > Nosferatu Bestial R : 1 > >> > >> 2-i cant really tell. It's unique but it gives you one fresh retainer each > >> turn when used with Heidelberg... > > > >I didn't test it or saw it tested, so I'd grant you a 2 if you've seen it > >work. Still looks cornercase to me. > > Won the MeatGrinder qualifier at GenCon. 2, easily, but obviously > clan-limited. Ok. > >> > Petra Resonance R : 1 > >> > >> 0 dont like the randomness of those cards =/ > > > >Agreed, but it is Malkav, and it the randomness can be diminished in many > >ways. 1 for fun ? > > If you give this card 1 for fun, you need to give Madness of the Bard 3, I would, because to me rhyming is no randomness... ;-) But it is forbidden anyway, ain't it ? > because it's the same type of "fun". Saving grace -- you can focus it > at your prey with some deckbuilding skill. Yes, you can. > >> > Skullduggery C2 : 2 for FoS cycling, but 1 for the rest... > >> > >> 0- the presence effect sucks. The other look more like "strategy suport > >> card" : pro might be interesting if you've got +1 bleed (dylan, or > >equipped > >> with laptop'n'stuff). The obf is great when you've got a gun. > > > >It is good in Pre / Obf decks for cycling effects ; if you're just looking > >for Pro stealth, there is much better. Can be useful in some cornercase > >decks (you know what ? I'd try it in an Anarch Torrance Blood Brothers > >deck...), hence the 1. > > 2 in any Setite deck, because you have either stealth OR bleed, > depending on what you want at the time. My point exactly. > >> > Smash and Grab C2 : 0 > >> > >> 2- the pot and ani effects are great and have inherent stealth. Don't > >> underestimate smash&grab =) > > > >1 because you will have nightmares if I deny you this small pleasure. But > >not more, unless you prove me wrong with one of your stupid-yet-efficient > >tournament decks. > > "I vaporize your (insert retainer here)." > > And much like Haunt, it's a +1 stealth Arson. The combo of Dem with Pot or Ani just seems too rare to me. But ANi and Pot, that's another story on the whole. Agreed that the +1 stealth is an important factor. Still not a card that you would see in many decks, due to the discipline combination (Anarch Nosferatu with Dem ??). Orpheus

Before rebating some of your comments, I will point out that becoming anarch is *really* easy. Being the generic action an action that costs blood, is a nice deterrent for decks that have limited intercept to block you. Of course wall decks are the ones that will annoy you extremely, but they wil annoy you whatever you play with. > > > Car Bomb C : 1 > > > > it's always a -1 stealth stuff, which would alloy any minion to block. Too > > bad you have to tap the bombing vampire =/ Maybe a free, one shot version > of > > Starshell grenade launcher ? > > I wonder why I didn't even rate it 0. This really sucks. Not at all. You can play it after playing WWEF/FA, and several of your vamps can do so. Agree it is vamps-intensive, but anarch decks are meant to have *lots* of vamps in play. I tunned and reached final round at last weekend Camarilla Conclave 2003 (Palma) with my anarchist-brujah debate deck, and been stomped by a lasombra bleed&bloat deck with lots of stealth cards. Won two tables on the preliminary rounds, and get killed by the last card of my predator's deck on the second round. Tapping one of your vamps to allow ALL vamps able to block a +1 stealth action, or several to damage light stealth decks, is a great deal. I allowed my grand-predator to block a domain challenge attempted by my predator with this card. Of course it is not a great deal for every deck, as I have mentioned before, you need a rather large number of vamps to keep an anarch deck running. What really annoys me of car bomb is that it must be played BEFORE any block action has been declared. > > > > > Diversion C2 : 1 ; no doubt the best multi-use card, but it ain't good > > > enough to justify clogging your hand with useless combat before you > > succeed > > > in becoming Anarch, IMO. > > > > 2-you can become anarch on the first round by spending 2 blood if you > really > > want. > > Sure. If you aren't blocked. But as has been said, that musn't be a factor. > What I meant is that if you get blocked while trying to become an Anarch, > you can't use it, and therefore are quite naked if you rely on it in combat. > This is why I think Anarch combat cards ain't that great. Also, as most of > the 3-way cards, it is mostly useful for small vampires who have the > disciplines in inf. It could deserve a 2 in some decks. > Not every deck is able to block every action his prey/predator performs at +1 stealth action. Only had real trouble in the 3rd round of the above mentioned tournament, when both my prey and predator were tzimi wall decks. But a single brujah debate was enough to let me burn blood from my vamps to put that A-Counter. > > > > > Fee Stakes : 2 because it gives new voting options ; not 3 because it > can > > be > > > destroyed, and there are only 6 to contest... > > > > the votes are your if the action passes. no referendum. Pass two fee > stakes > > in one turn and you're ready to go. > > The votes are yours if no-one else chose to play Anarch votes and contests > you ; also, a voter with Pre will have no trouble getting rid of your > bothersome titles. Maybe he won't bother if you're playing Carlotta ? ;-) > Vote decks have usually more important referendums to call every turn with their vamps, if your votes are not enough to annoy them. Once you've settled your 3rd fee stake, it's too late for them, or perhaps too costly, to remove one of their titles. Of course, contesting really hurts. Not to mention that this is STILL a +1 stealth action you are able to block. > > > The Mole C2 : 1, because it can't be used on anarchs. > > > > yes, it's a shame. Same for the Dom effect : why does it have to be a > > younger vampire acting ? > > Right. And the argument that it should be used to block the "becoming > anarch" action doesn't work for me : sooner or later, you'll have useless > cards in hand. Better give Obt to your !Brujahs or Aus to your Brujahs... > If you have the spare card slots, sure. If not, it's an unexpected intercept. Even though, won't use lots of them either, never more than 4. > > > Reins of Power C : 3 !!! Power to the big voters !!! > > > > 2- you meant power to the big vampires... is it so powerful? i doubt so. > > I won more than a few games because of it. It is both a way to gain pool > most of the time if you play big, and a way to make your prey lose pool. It > isn't more random than Ancient Influence or Political Stranglehold, and has > the double-edged effect. To me, it is one of the best cards introduced in > Anarchs, and a good factor in trying to improve the rentability of big > vampires. > This card is a killer if you can combine it with a few well-placed banishments. It has granted me a few game wins with an alexandra-madame guil deck. > > > Smash and Grab C2 : 0 > > > > 2- the pot and ani effects are great and have inherent stealth. Don't > > underestimate smash&grab =) > > 1 because you will have nightmares if I deny you this small pleasure. But > not more, unless you prove me wrong with one of your stupid-yet-efficient > tournament decks. > Again, 1 stealth unusual action, that grants you an edge on targets that are usually unable to damage. Burning a Secure Haven, parthenon or even a hunting ground, or damaging seriously a war ghoul, killing almost all retainers or even killing a Garou is always a good deal. It's unexpected. As Raziya's Ani, BTW :-P > > done =) > > Pfeeeeew, re-done too. > > Orpheus > > Smiling Tom, Anarch promoter

"Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> escribió en el mensaje news:3f431e68$0$27031$626a...@news.free.fr... > > >> 2-you forgot the special effect when blocking. Which can be decisive > when > > >> playing walls, eagle sight... > > > > > >Yes, it can be nice. I didn't forget it, just didn't mention it. I think > it > > >will only marginally be interesting. But then, I seldom play Walls decks, > > >and tend to dislike seeing them on a table (they block one player, > sometimes > > >two, and seldom win ; but that is another story). Anyway, it still isn't > a > > >great equipement in my book. > > > > Jaroslav Pascek is a monster with this, as is Adonai. > > As they are with any weapon. Let's compare to the Bang Nakh : same damage ; > one more pool cost ; Banshee Ironwail Costs 2 pool as Bangh Nakh does. > bearer gets -1 stealth ; action minion burns 1 blood if > blocked ; it is Unique. That makes for a lot of downsides to the very nice > effect of having the opposing minion burn a blood. Good in the appropriated > deck, but that's about it. Oh, I forgot, it's Cold Iron, let's giev it a 3 > then ! ;-) > > > Any blocking deck likes it a lot, of course, but Sniper Rifle is still a > > strong contender for its 'get away from close range crap' factor. > > Sure is. > <snipped> > > >> > Smash and Grab C2 : 0 > > >> > > >> 2- the pot and ani effects are great and have inherent stealth. Don't > > >> underestimate smash&grab =) > > > > > >1 because you will have nightmares if I deny you this small pleasure. But > > >not more, unless you prove me wrong with one of your stupid-yet-efficient > > >tournament decks. > > > > "I vaporize your (insert retainer here)." > > > > And much like Haunt, it's a +1 stealth Arson. > > The combo of Dem with Pot or Ani just seems too rare to me. But ANi and Pot, > that's another story on the whole. Agreed that the +1 stealth is an > important factor. Still not a card that you would see in many decks, due to > the discipline combination (Anarch Nosferatu with Dem ??). > You don't really need to use all versions of a 3 way in order to use it, really. diversion is good enough only at 1 of their levels, if your crypt doesn't held the superior version of that discipline. 2 smash and grab in any anarch deck with *some* vamps with pot and *some* vamps with any is usually enough. You won't play this card at both effects at a time, just one of them. Choose your acting minion and that's all. By far, it's the best "burn location" action in the game, along with the haunt. And damaging allies/retainers out of combat was only possible with cryptic missions and shadow twins, but only for 1 damage. > Orpheus > > Smiling Tom

dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) wrote in message news:<9e10847c.0308...@posting.google.com>... <snip> > OK, so you like Anarch Revolt decks. However, they suck. Truely suck. In your opinion. I find them a b*tch to play against as well - but I'm aware that's an opinion. > The experience of playing an Anarch Revolt deck is similar to reading > a very bad book that you get free on the cover of certain glossy > ladies magazines - cheap, and embarassing if anyone else finds out. I ripped this old version of a fairly succesful deck from our tournament scene from the newsgroup: Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 32, Max: 38, Avg: 8,50) ---------------------------------------------- 9 Anson aus CEL dom PRE 8, Toreador, Prince 3 Huitzilopochtli AUS DAI DOM OBF PRE POT 10, Baali Library: (71 cards) ------------------- Master (63 cards) 17 Anarch Revolt 1 Antediluvian Awakening 1 Art Museum 1 Barrens, The 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 2 Giant's Blood 8 Golconda: Inner Peace 4 Life Boon 12 Minion Tap 6 Parthenon, The 9 Storage Annex 1 Succubus Club Reaction (8 cards) 8 Redirection It's anything but cheap and embarrasing. But that may also have something to do with the style it's been played with by it's inventor (Wouter). > Playing AGAINST one is an experience similar to nailing beer to a wall > - frustrating, pointless, and a waste of time and resources. > > Really, is there anyone out there who can honestly say "I like playing > with lots of Anarch Revolts in my deck as I find it a challenging and > exciting way to spend an afternoon". NO. Not even you, random "me > too-er", you are lying just to further wind me up. Well, Wouter said this and meant it for a time. As he was entitled too, I think. Now he's probably somewhat bored with it, as we all get with some deck designs. [ quoted text not captured ] Ahhh wonderful. Now that the temperature's been dropping here in Europe, at least some flames to put the marshmellows in. Remind me to play my weenie presence vote deck with extra AR if I ever meet you and David Cherryholmes at the same table... :) Tobias Deventer

id77...@yahoo.com (isaphrael) wrote in message news:<5494c8c1.03081...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I totally have. I felt cheap as I played and actually had to shower afterwards. To be honest, the period where I played with my Anarch Revolt deck was my most successful in all the time I've played VTES. It was also the time I nearly split up my playgroup. I was playing it quite happily for about 2 months on and off. Every time I played it, I would get enormous amounts of hate from the playgroup - mine was based on Surprise Influence and Gangrel Weenies with the Revolts so they could Aggropoke with bleeds some rush and use Metro Underground or Homunculus' to untap. In the end, I had to take it apart or risk a war. Funnily enough, as soon as I dismantled the deck, 2 others in the playgroup decided to build Anarch Revolt decks of their own... and the arguments started all over again. Sucky. Anarch Revolt sucks because: 1) It's Free 2) It's a Master and can't be blocked. 3) It damages the whole table irrespective of Predator / Prey relationship 4) It's not unique 5) It requires no skill to construct a deck that will demolish the whole table 6) 4 / 5 people who have no skill and bring one of these decks to a tournament end up setting up their prey for a sweep. They can't quite oust their prey, they lower everyone on the table to few pool, they get ousted and the first oust wins as he is the only person with enough pool to survive. Therefore just one of these decks in a tournament is enough to ruin 3 other peoples day. 7) The new artwork isn't as good as the old artwork. 8) The very name "Anarch Revolt". It's, like, sooo 1977. So it needs to be fixed. Actually, the easiest way of fixing it is in making the damage only applicable to player, his predator and his prey. That way the whole table isn't so messed up and it will be much harder to win. Or make it a vote, so there are 3 chances to stop it before it happens, rather than just the one - a vote can be blocked, voted down, or cancelled (DI, Rewind Time, Delaying Tactics), whereas a Master can only be cancelled. Or make it unique... So many fixes, so little time... I mean, come ON! Weather Control is sort of vaguely similar insofar as it arbitrarily damages outside the normal order of things. OK, so it's scaled down (it damages in combat with another vamp as opposed to normal play for the whole table) but it got "fixed" to one a combat. Tenuous, sure, but it makes sense! I mean, how much weather CAN you control? Same with Anarch Revolts - how many revolts CAN they have? > next try a rant about the Third Tradition, only this time actually > form a cohesive argument, or something other than 'it sucks' and 'eat > me' Errr... I didn't say "Eat me" at all. And I was just saving everyones time by not repeating the same arguements we hear week in, week out. There's nothing wrong with 3rd trad. One of my favourite spawning cards. Now that the Embrace is only 10% as useful as pre CE, it's the best way of spawning if you have a couple of princes reliably in your deck. I still think there is milage in a Nossie Spawn deck and Destructive Secrets. If only they could bleed more. Now if you'd said "What about Spirit Marionette?", THEN I'd have said "it sucks, it's broken," and if you're lucky "eat me". ;) DH

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<8NMnSYibgjQ$Ew...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <9e10847c.0308...@posting.google.com>, hamdamcwa > <dave...@hotmail.com> writes: > >> What you're missing is the most important: Anyone, even Smudge can cancel all of Arikas 20 votes > >> with one card! > > > >I'm not missing it. Delaying tactics does sort-of the same wihout > >tapping the vampire, and without being a card DESTINED ONLY FOR ANARCH > >REVOLT DECKS. > > The point is rather that you can *fail* one of the nasty votes > (Baltimore Purge, Banishment, Dramatic Upheaval, that sort of thing) > rather than simply handing it back to them to use the following turn. Yes, but... Most players take their chance that they can either block the action or club together and get rid of nasty votes with table votes. If the acting vampire pushes the vote (BO, or better still AWE), then you should play delaying tactics. Delaying Tactics is better than voting something down since they can't call the same vote that turn, something that IP doesn't do. In this way, IP is better for nasty "power votes" as opposed to regular irritant votes (KRC, Con Boon, Con Ag, etc). However, it's the regualr irritants that usually cost you the game... If you vote them down some by using IP, you don't take into account locations, static votes of other vampires not acting etc. So IP is not a guaranteed, reliable way of stopping a vote, AND it taps you, which is more than Delaying Tactics. Delaying Tactics sidesteps all of this in one go, so is more reliable. > For similar reasons, I'm mildly interested by Mob Rule. A better card all round - like a dual purpose Business Pressure. Would be good with a Setite deck, if you could persuade folks to vote against you so you can Form of Corruption them or Tempt them. He he hee! > With some of the nasty votes that are available these days, I'm not sure > that handing them back to players is a good idea. Yes, but the nastiest votes are the ones that have always been around. There are no votes in the last 2 sets that are in any way nastier than before. In fact the nastiest votes were the ones found in Jyhad / VTES - KRC, Domain Challenge, Dramatic Upheaval, Parity Shift, Con Boon, Con Ag. The only other vote of late that is quite scary is Free States Rant. Even Banishment has been sufficiently "balanced" to make it fairly unpopular lately. As such, we've always relied on luck and Delaying Tactics up till now, so what has changed that makes IP necessary? Dave

"Matt Mayoh" <fluffy_ps...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet news:5a1cc8a7.03081...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] And it's perfect together with Trioile's revenge! -- /Henrik Isaksson

"hamdamcwa" <dave...@hotmail.com> wrote > I was playing it quite happily for about 2 months on and off. Every > time I played it, I would get enormous amounts of hate from the > playgroup - mine was based on Surprise Influence and Gangrel Weenies > with the Revolts so they could Aggropoke with bleeds some rush and use > Metro Underground or Homunculus' to untap. Any well constructed rush deck should cut your head then : sideslip, disease, long range combat all get rid of you. A mind numb bleeder would also tap your vamps cross table so another player can pass the Anarch votes. I think maybe your playgroup didnt thought about Anarch specific answers. When a deck is ruling the local metagame, you have to adapt your strategy, pal ! Tell this to your copycat friends =) > Anarch Revolt sucks because: > > 1) It's Free you loose pool like everyone else when they are in place ;) > 2) It's a Master and can't be blocked. sure ! And that's the incentive to play it. Else you have sabbat threat... > 3) It damages the whole table irrespective of Predator / Prey > relationship please... Bum's rush, deflection damages anyone you want irrespective of predator / prey. > 4) It's not unique you can add antediluvian awakening if you like uniqueness =) > 5) It requires no skill to construct a deck that will demolish the > whole table Some cards are juste like this : if you've got no skill, you'll get no results. See Baltimore purge. Now if the guy who played it and made someone else win the game does not understand where his mistakes were, too bad for him. > 6) 4 / 5 people who have no skill and bring one of these decks to a > tournament end up setting up their prey for a sweep. They can't quite > oust their prey, they lower everyone on the table to few pool, they > get ousted and the first oust wins as he is the only person with > enough pool to survive. Therefore just one of these decks in a > tournament is enough to ruin 3 other peoples day. same answer. > 7) The new artwork isn't as good as the old artwork. i prefer the old one too.. > 8) The very name "Anarch Revolt". It's, like, sooo 1977. yes, but Bianca, Tura and Miranda sanova are so 1977 too : it's called consistency =) > So it needs to be fixed. Actually, the easiest way of fixing it is in > making the damage only applicable to player, his predator and his > prey. That way the whole table isn't so messed up and it will be much > harder to win. nope. > Or make it a vote, so there are 3 chances to stop it before it > happens, rather than just the one no. Any deck should be able to benefit Anarch revolt.

"Tobias" <tobiasop...@hotmail.com> wrote > <snip> > I ripped this old version of a fairly succesful deck from our > tournament scene from the newsgroup: > > Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 32, Max: 38, Avg: 8,50) > ---------------------------------------------- > 9 Anson aus CEL dom PRE 8, Toreador, Prince > 3 Huitzilopochtli AUS DAI DOM OBF PRE POT 10, Baali > > Library: (71 cards) > ------------------- > Master (63 cards) > 17 Anarch Revolt > 1 Antediluvian Awakening > 1 Art Museum > 1 Barrens, The > 1 Dreams of the Sphinx > 2 Giant's Blood > 8 Golconda: Inner Peace > 4 Life Boon > 12 Minion Tap > 6 Parthenon, The > 9 Storage Annex > 1 Succubus Club > > Reaction (8 cards) > 8 Redirection Not a single obedience ?Just rush Anson. Just rush huitzi. Just bloat. Just switch place at the right moment to gain all the huicy pool from the oustings. There are many answers to those decks, i can't understand why you fear them : use your brain and talk with the other players the second you realize what the deck do.

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> escribió en el mensaje news:3f434a32$0$19877$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net... [ quoted text not captured ] And where are the PROTECTED RESOURCES any master's deck needs????????? Also, delaying tactics and 4xdirect intervention. A couple of Bleeding the Vine might come handy, as will Gambit Accepted, 4xmillicent smith, brothers grimm... [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <bhv71o$49r$1...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>, Smiling Tom <t...@almadrava.net> writes: >> > > Fee Stakes : 2 because it gives new voting options ; not 3 because it >> can >> > be >> > > destroyed, and there are only 6 to contest... >> > >> > the votes are your if the action passes. no referendum. Pass two fee >> stakes >> > in one turn and you're ready to go. >> >> The votes are yours if no-one else chose to play Anarch votes and contests >> you ; also, a voter with Pre will have no trouble getting rid of your >> bothersome titles. Maybe he won't bother if you're playing Carlotta ? ;-) >> >Vote decks have usually more important referendums to call every turn with >their vamps, if your votes are not enough to annoy them. Once you've settled >your 3rd fee stake, it's too late for them, or perhaps too costly, to remove >one of their titles. Of course, contesting really hurts. Not to mention that >this is STILL a +1 stealth action you are able to block. As you say, once it hits the third fee stake, removing them is tricky. Hence a *sensible* vote deck realises this and moves in earlier. It's the same as any additive combo - it might not hurt *now*, but it will sure as hell hurt later when it all adds up. e.g. that Army of Rats is "irrelevant", but Army of Rats and Gambit Accepted and the Fame damage... If I can lose vote lock, or find votes being thrown at me which I can't easily defend against (since I may be able to Bewitch or Awe my own votes, but not do this reactively), it's a big fear. If it's fairly obvious that it's going to occur through Fee Stakes, it would be silly to let them get away with it so easily. As my predator, taking an action to remove their Fee Stakes "hurts" them just as much as many I can take. That one point I send at them from a KRC is a hunt action and Blood Doll to replace, for instance, whereas here it's an action to replace the Fee Stake and a card in hand to do so. As my prey, it slows them down and stops them going forward, because they have to take the action again. The slower my prey is, the less likely they are to get that extra six pool and make my life even harder getting rid of them. In either instance, it secures my vote lock (or moves closer toward it) and no deck can afford to have an infinite supply of Fee Stakes. The "tricky" times are when it's cross-table. In which case, you probably hoard a few Awes somewhere in order to get rid of them when they become a problem. Oh, and contesting isn't *that* much of a problem. Corte, Perth and LA should all be fine. >Again, 1 stealth unusual action, that grants you an edge on targets that are >usually unable to damage. Burning a Secure Haven, parthenon or even a >hunting ground, or damaging seriously a war ghoul, killing almost all >retainers or even killing a Garou is always a good deal. It's unexpected. As >Raziya's Ani, BTW :-P Don't forget that the Animalism version will work against immune allies/retainers, too. It's burn life, not damage. [ quoted text not captured ]

> >Vote decks have usually more important referendums to call every turn with > >their vamps, if your votes are not enough to annoy them. Once you've settled > >your 3rd fee stake, it's too late for them, or perhaps too costly, to remove > >one of their titles. Of course, contesting really hurts. Not to mention that > >this is STILL a +1 stealth action you are able to block. > > As you say, once it hits the third fee stake, removing them is tricky. > Hence a *sensible* vote deck realises this and moves in earlier. > > It's the same as any additive combo - it might not hurt *now*, but it > will sure as hell hurt later when it all adds up. e.g. that Army of > Rats is "irrelevant", but Army of Rats and Gambit Accepted and the Fame > damage... > > If I can lose vote lock, or find votes being thrown at me which I can't > easily defend against (since I may be able to Bewitch or Awe my own > votes, but not do this reactively), it's a big fear. If it's fairly > obvious that it's going to occur through Fee Stakes, it would be silly > to let them get away with it so easily. Don't forget that you still need to call that referendum to remove the baron title. Non-voting decks won't bother to call it if it doesn't directly harm them. It's an unproductive action, so forces you to either loose an action or to "buy" an action from another player with some sort of deal. > > As my predator, taking an action to remove their Fee Stakes "hurts" them > just as much as many I can take. That one point I send at them from a > KRC is a hunt action and Blood Doll to replace, for instance, whereas > here it's an action to replace the Fee Stake and a card in hand to do > so. As my prey, it slows them down and stops them going forward, > because they have to take the action again. The slower my prey is, the > less likely they are to get that extra six pool and make my life even > harder getting rid of them. > > In either instance, it secures my vote lock (or moves closer toward it) > and no deck can afford to have an infinite supply of Fee Stakes. > Anarch decks works only with large number of vamps, so for me is one of my, say, 6 actions per turn to become baron. For other players, standard decks, it might be one of their 3-4 actions to expend on relatively unproductive one to call the referendum to remove it. Not to say, that if your anarch deck uses barons as defensive votes rather than offensive ones (I.E.: you don't use large numbers of political actions) they are not too irritant votes. And as ou comment from a predator's point of view, for me it's great that due to an action taken by one of my 6-8 vamps my predator doesn't bleeds/rushes/votes me with one of their "spare" actions. As my prey, if you remove it, it's one of my prey's vamp tapped to perform an action that won't grant him pool. > > The "tricky" times are when it's cross-table. In which case, you > probably hoard a few Awes somewhere in order to get rid of them when > they become a problem. > Of course, any well built, heavy political deck would get rid of these votes without even an effort. > Oh, and contesting isn't *that* much of a problem. Corte, Perth and LA > should all be fine. > Well, in order to get political power, you need to rely on the six of them, otherwise you have to double some. But yes, you are right, most of the games contesting won't be a problem (unless there is another anarch political deck in play, of course) Smiling Tom

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, Orpheus wrote: <snip Bleeding the Vine assessment> > There's a trade on the way, and I'll keep one for the focused decks we're > speaking about. Isn't this an oxymoron? Keeping one, for focused decks? > It is a valid strategy. I still believe the surprise can be a very important > element, but then, why not include 1 Sudden, and just tap your Bleeding when > you get it... ?! :-) If master card denial is a design element of your deck, then tossing in a BtV or two might be analogous to including just a few weapons in your combat deck, to ensure that you coast into one sometime before you deck yourself, thus staving off said decking yourself. > Of course not. What I meant is : I can't judge how good it is for them, if > they really need it. Looks to me like they have many other ways to untap and > react. Double-duty is strong kung fu. Card that do two of the things I'm trying to get done i.e. stealth/bleed, intercept/bounce, etc. up the reliability of both and decrease overall card slots consumed to achieve both, since one usually includes more copies of a card than you actually want to play, to ensure drawing it when needed. Long live run on sentences. David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 david.che...@duke.edu

"Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> wrote in message news:3f429b16$0$224$626a...@news.free.fr... > Ok, so I'll try to answer to Reyda but to take into account all I've read > here : > > > > Anarch Salon C2 : 1 > > > > 2-great with blood dolls / tribute to the master > > I'll stay with 1, because : it can benefit other anarchs on the table, which > can't be controlled, and the effect isn't that great anyway. False : you have 4 vampires. You can gain 4 pool + 16 blood total on your vamps in a sigle turn. Combined with firebrand, you can untap some of them for defense of for bleeding. This is a great, great card in the right deck. > > > Body Bag C : 0 ; it requires an Anarch, cost 2 blood... At 1 it would > > have > > > been playable. > > > > 1 or 2-I'd rate it better because it can shut down a rushing deck long > > enough for you to sweep the table. You also become immune to temptations, > > spirit marionnette, as long as you can gain blood in one way or another. > =) > > I get the argument that you don't spend the blood if you aren't rushed ; but > still, it looks expensive and marginal to me (plus you have to equip, of > course). Ok, let's say 1. when you can untap without much problem via Firebrand, Freak drive or whatever, it's not a problem. When you gain 2 blood on your anarch while hunting (hospital...) it's delicious to see your rushing predator getting a nervous breakdown =) > > > Car Bomb C : 1 > > > > it's always a -1 stealth stuff, which would alloy any minion to block. Too > > bad you have to tap the bombing vampire =/ Maybe a free, one shot version > of > > Starshell grenade launcher ? > > I wonder why I didn't even rate it 0. This really sucks. -1 stealth is clearly better than +1 intercept. > > > Carnivale R : 2 > > > > ?? one of the worst card ever printed ! why not put a damn obfuscate card > on > > your toreador ? > > For reasons expressed before. I recently played a Tore Obf vote with some > success, and I can guarantee you that I didn't regret for one second putting > 1 Carnivale in it : it helped Villon get the Changeling Skin Mask, which he > would never have gotten otherwise due to two nasty Ravnos enemies. A steath > card usable at any time when you don't have any other choice can be great. > Also, this is usable in non-obf Tore decks, making them a bit more playable > even if you don't have the Aching / Change combo. So, having tested this > card in tournament (and made it to the finals in part because of it), I > still rate it 2. you rate it 2 because it saved your life once ? U llama ! You'd better play alacrity. And put a blood on your toreador with life in the city so he can make up for the cost ;D > > > Diversion C2 : 1 ; no doubt the best multi-use card, but it ain't good > > > enough to justify clogging your hand with useless combat before you > > succeed > > > in becoming Anarch, IMO. > > > > 2-you can become anarch on the first round by spending 2 blood if you > really > > want. > > Sure. If you aren't blocked. But as has been said, that musn't be a factor. > What I meant is that if you get blocked while trying to become an Anarch, > you can't use it, and therefore are quite naked if you rely on it in combat. > This is why I think Anarch combat cards ain't that great. Also, as most of > the 3-way cards, it is mostly useful for small vampires who have the > disciplines in inf. It could deserve a 2 in some decks. crap ! i'm tired of this "you can become anarch if you are not blocked" argument. If you talk like that then any action card is shit because it can be blocked. Plus you may play galaric's legacy and seattle comitee if you fear the block so much :p > > > Dummy Corporation C : 1, but still lame. > I'd put it only in the worst decks : the very focused ones with no > reactions. Can be useful for DoC, for instance, or for non-reacting weenies. > Not much for the rest, though. it's good in ANY deck. period. > > > Fee Stakes : 2 because it gives new voting options ; not 3 because it > > >can be destroyed, and there are only 6 to contest... > > > > the votes are your if the action passes. no referendum. Pass two fee > > stakes in one turn and you're ready to go. > > The votes are yours if no-one else chose to play Anarch votes and contests > you ; also, a voter with Pre will have no trouble getting rid of your > bothersome titles. Maybe he won't bother if you're playing Carlotta ? ;-) if no one else chooses... yeah. It's exactly the same as playing praxis : if no one elses plays the same prince, etc... This is not an argument against playing anarchs. A voter with pre may have trouble getting rid of the Baron title because you know what ? i can *intercept* them ! really : if intercept does exist when i take my anarch action, i dont see why it will suddenly dissappear when other people play ! And a coupla irregular protocols, a demonstration or a delaying tactics (to please another poster) is enough to have my title in place long enough for the voter to mourn about it. > > > Filchware's Pawn Shop R : 1 > > > > 2 you can paralyze most gun decks. > > How is that ??? Surely you must think of some Tem card... > > > you can fetch a leather jacket in your > > prey's ash heapwhen you're a fighter.... Good card. > > Not bad. Some Tem effects are much better. Does 1.5 satisfy you ? ;-) you play Tem if you want, with the 3 scarce vamps capable of playing Kiss of Lachesis. What are we talking about here ? a master card, free, wich in addition is a trifle, which allows you to fetch the equipment discarded/burned from any other methuselah. Hand jam everyone ? Are you going to discard this expensive flamethrower, knowing it will be mine for 3 pools, or let it clog your hand ? And what about the laptop you can't afford to equip now because you have to defend against bleeds ? > > > Improvised Tactics C2 :1 > > > > 2-this card is great, clearly for the potence effect. Too bad you can play > > only one impro tactics per combat, since pot/pro vampire would have a free > > .44 each round =) > > If the Pot effect is the main interest, than get some Pot card !! Thrown > Gates does it everytime... thrown gate alone does not inflict 8 with a blur+quickness -you save up to 4 strike cards ! And nothing prevents you to play thrown gates (for the initial maneuver) and improvised tactics. (my choice would be deer rifle but ymmv) > > > Molotov Cocktail C : 1 (burn after Combat Ends !!!) :-( > > > > 2-it's a one shot weapon, pal. i like it, and its anarch-flavored ;) > > It may be fun for RPG's sake, but it still is a burnable, not usable in the > first turn, card. I'd prefer an Improvised Flamethrower in most decks. Nope. Molotov cocktail is Free and has absolutely no drawback. Plus it can be put in play by an ally (like a renegade garou) which would burn their targets -nasty surprise. > > > Redline R : 1 > > > > 3-if you can trick the table into doing what you want, Redline is a > marvel. > > So I'd give 1 to this very cornercase card, and 3 to Reyda's ability to > manipulate a table ! ;-) we'll see in the long run what this card has to offer. With protean unleashed again, blowtorches and dragon breath rounds seen more often than ever, i think we'll see more of this toy played during tournaments. > > > Smash and Grab C2 : 0 > > > > 2- the pot and ani effects are great and have inherent stealth. Don't > > underestimate smash&grab =) > > 1 because you will have nightmares if I deny you this small pleasure. But > not more, unless you prove me wrong with one of your stupid-yet-efficient > tournament decks. it's not about nightmare : it's a valuable, versatile card. Seeing not a single retainer (or ally) nor a single location during a game of v:tes simply don't happen. You'll find a use for this, no matter what you play. > > > Sweeper R : 1 > > > > 0- No really... better put another KRC or a card that will actually help > you > > to oust your prey ! and it must be called by a baron ! > > Right. Can be fun in very, very few decks. I have yet to find a place for it > anywhere. Let's give it a 1 for now ? Nope. If you absolutely want to put an anarch specific vote, put another firebrand in your deck. One more vote and untapping a younger vampire will always be more useful than looking at randomly at a card *during your untap*, which will only give you a slight idea of what others can do -if you've not already guessed by seeing people playing. > > done =) > > Pfeeeeew, re-done too. re-re-done then ;)

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3f434936$0$19873$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>... > "hamdamcwa" <dave...@hotmail.com> wrote > > > > I was playing it quite happily for about 2 months on and off. Every > > time I played it, I would get enormous amounts of hate from the > > playgroup - mine was based on Surprise Influence and Gangrel Weenies > > with the Revolts so they could Aggropoke with bleeds some rush and use > > Metro Underground or Homunculus' to untap. > > Any well constructed rush deck should cut your head then : sideslip, > disease, long range combat all get rid of you. So what you mean is "any well constructed ASSAMITE deck should kill this deck". There were a few DotB and some Earth Melds for fun. I'll have to really dig to find the decklist, but the fact that it held up against everything for quite a while says a lot. A mind numb bleeder would > also tap your vamps cross table so another player can pass the Anarch votes. D'you know, Mind Numb decks aren't that popular. Never have been around here. > I think maybe your playgroup didnt thought about Anarch specific answers. > When a deck is ruling the local metagame, you have to adapt your strategy, > pal ! > Tell this to your copycat friends =) I did. They got really pissed off when I just built a "stupid bloat" deck with lots of Life Boons. > > Anarch Revolt sucks because: > > > > 1) It's Free > > you loose pool like everyone else when they are in place ;) A turn later than everyone else. But the loss of pool is moot as it still costs nothing to play, so you can get a parthenon or Anson or something and play 2 - 3 in one turn forcing a 3 pool "bleed" for your predator each turn. If it had a playing cost, this would be harsh on the person playing it. > > 2) It's a Master and can't be blocked. > > sure ! And that's the incentive to play it. Else you have sabbat threat... Sabbat threat is much easier to remove, though. If it was "ditch the edge to burn Anarch Revolt" I'd be much happier. > > 3) It damages the whole table irrespective of Predator / Prey > > relationship > > please... Bum's rush, deflection damages anyone you want irrespective of > predator / prey. Yes, but Bums Rush and deflection target specific individuals, not the whole table at one EVERY TURN. No other card except Antideluvian Awakening penalises the whole table EVERY TURN for one player having a master phase action! > > 4) It's not unique > > you can add antediluvian awakening if you like uniqueness =) Yes, but that still doesn't stop mr muppet over there packing 20 Anarch Revolts in HIS deck. > > 5) It requires no skill to construct a deck that will demolish the > > whole table > > Some cards are juste like this : if you've got no skill, you'll get no > results. See Baltimore purge. Now if the guy who played it and made someone > else win the game does not understand where his mistakes were, too bad for > him. Baltimore Purge needs a HELL of a lot of skill to play. It's no stealth unless you're Ravnos, it only effects younger vampires, it takes a turn to get going (so if the vampire is already in torpor at the beginning of the next turn, it fails...) etc etc. Also, you are unlikely to be ousted via a vampire in torpor. Pool damage WILL oust you. What other cards require as little skill to play as this? I can think of no other card that in itself alone can screw the entire table with no other cards in play. Even sneak bleed needs stealth AND bleed. You could almost make a deck with just 40 Anarch Revolts and a few Parthenons in and maybe get a point or two. > > 6) 4 / 5 people who have no skill and bring one of these decks to a > > tournament end up setting up their prey for a sweep. They can't quite > > oust their prey, they lower everyone on the table to few pool, they > > get ousted and the first oust wins as he is the only person with > > enough pool to survive. Therefore just one of these decks in a > > tournament is enough to ruin 3 other peoples day. > > same answer. What other cards require as little skill to play as this? I can think of no other card that in itself alone can screw the entire table with no other cards in play. Even sneak bleed needs stealth AND bleed. You could almost make a deck with just 40 Anarch Revolts and a few Parthenons in and maybe get a point or two. > > 7) The new artwork isn't as good as the old artwork. > > i prefer the old one too.. > > > 8) The very name "Anarch Revolt". It's, like, sooo 1977. > > yes, but Bianca, Tura and Miranda sanova are so 1977 too : it's called > consistency =) Yer got me there. ;) > > > So it needs to be fixed. Actually, the easiest way of fixing it is in > > making the damage only applicable to player, his predator and his > > prey. That way the whole table isn't so messed up and it will be much > > harder to win. > > nope. **BBZZZZZZZZZZZT** I'm sorry that's the wrong answer - it's good, but it's not right. Thanks for playing. > > Or make it a vote, so there are 3 chances to stop it before it > > happens, rather than just the one > > no. Any deck should be able to benefit Anarch revolt. Huh? You're just winding me up now Reyda! Come on, you must see that it needs to be fixed in some way to stop abuse. And it is being abused. Case in point: last Watford, UK event - 2 players with AR decks. Both fairly seasoned who should have known better. Both scored, but in at least 1 game it was their predator who swept. And when even the player goes home in disgust with themselves (both, form memory, did) then there is something seriously wrong. Dave

"hamdamcwa" <dave...@hotmail.com> wrote (snip all interesting stuff) > > no. Any deck should be able to benefit Anarch revolt. > > Huh? You're just winding me up now Reyda! Come on, you must see that > it needs to be fixed in some way to stop abuse. And it is being > abused. > > Case in point: last Watford, UK event - 2 players with AR decks. Both > fairly seasoned who should have known better. Both scored, but in at > least 1 game it was their predator who swept. And when even the player > goes home in disgust with themselves (both, form memory, did) then > there is something seriously wrong. here is my overall vision of Anarch revolt : See anarch revolt like a dangerous toy. It will harm others as much as it harms you. If you understimate other player's deck building ability and do not plan for D.I. , unblockable bleeds, life boons and so on, it's your fault after all. If someone else gains the benefit of the mess you create, then blame yourself, not the dangerous toy.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:14:04 +0200, "Smiling Tom" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Can we see the decklist ? Thanks. Julien M.

"Julien Moisy" <julien...@caverne-du-gobelin.com> wrote > Can we see the decklist ? > > Thanks. > Julien M. ça t'interesse vraiment ou tu veux juste pomper un deck pour samedi ? ;)

dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) wrote in message news:<9e10847c.03082...@posting.google.com>... > > > Really, is there anyone out there who can honestly say "I like playing > > > with lots of Anarch Revolts in my deck as I find it a challenging and > > > exciting way to spend an afternoon". NO. Not even you, random "me > > > too-er", you are lying just to further wind me up. Makes for faster games, though, doesn't it? I'm glad to see ARs in other people's hands at tournaments, because it's less likely that the table will time out, i.e. more likely that I'll win that table. Anarch Revolt basically turns the game into a race in which the AR player has a head start. The more revolts on the table, the larger the head start. If you're smart, you can make AR work for you. Play as if you started with 20 pool instead of 30. Bring out less vampires than you normally would, play defensively and let the ARs whomp your prey. Save a Sudden Reversal for the AR deck's Life Boon, and voila. On the other hand, you could piss and scream about how much the card sucks, which really just sounds like "I don't knooooow how to deaaaal with this strategy!" :) Better learn to, because I guarantee that I'm going to play a AR deck at any tournament that you and I are both in. > So it needs to be fixed. Actually, the easiest way of fixing it is in > making the damage only applicable to player, his predator and his > prey. That way the whole table isn't so messed up and it will be much > harder to win. Actually, the easiest way to fix the card would be to errata it with flavor text reading, "IF THIS CARD IS PLAYED, ALL PLAYERS SHOULD ENGAGE THEIR BRAINS." > I still think there is milage in a Nossie Spawn deck and Destructive > Secrets. If only they could bleed more. Try a Nossie Prince Spawn vote deck instead, with Night Moves. I got a lot of mileage out of mine.

"Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> wrote in message news:<3f40a91e$0$1162$626a...@news.free.fr>... > From another thread, it looks like many Anarch cards are judged "lame" ; > some are pretty good, though, but how many ? Was this extension useful or > not, what did you think of it ? >Banshee Ironwail R : 1 (who needs a Unique Bang Nakh ??) Definitely better than Nakh and if you have intercept wall and your predator is playing with Kiasyds, I would give it 3 :) >Bleeding the Vine R : 0 !!! It looks at first like a good card, but it >costs pool, and you don't even have the "surprise factor" ; I have two for >trade... If you have pool to cover its cost it is rate 3 card definitely. I have seen it to stop master deck and it works perfect in master decks too. >Cry Wolf R2 : 1 ; I think it will see very little light except in some >weird decks ; of course, if you can turn it into an Abomination it is much >more interesting... 2 or 3. Beware the garous!! >Dummy Corporation C : 1, but still lame. If you don't have any other ways to reduce bleeds this is ok card. Currently testing it on master deck and in some cases It is better card than protected resources. >Fiendish Tongue C2 : 2 for Tzimisce, 1 for Sabbat... For sabbat only bleed deck it is always better than computer hacking. I would give 2 >Gambit Accepted R : 3 !!! This card is a must in all "fast" decks, and you I won’t even say how many times I have had to discard this card because of unable to play it. Maybe my deck wasn't fast enough :P 2 >Gather R : 3 Possibly way too overrated card. 1 or 2 >Liberty Club Intrigue R : 0. Lame, lame, lame !!! Agree until we see killer weenie anarch decks :) >Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. With being trifle I have found this to be ok for many deck concepts. 1 or 2 >Magazine R : 2 I would say 0. gun+ magazine + dragon breaths + rötchreck is nice combo, but… >Nosferatu Bestial R : 1 There are some interesting Nosferatu Bestial decks flying around. I would give 2 >Petra Resonance R : 1 Could have some great potential in Malk fattie decks with lots of Dramatic upheavals. 2 or 3 I need more of these. Anyone willing to trade few? >Reins of Power C : 3 !!! Power to the big voters !!! Again card that gets discarded more often than played. Oops, my predator is also playing with fatties. I don't want to get 5-pool damage with this vote. Very good for speeding the game. 1 >Seattle Committee R2 : 2 For weenie to midcap anarch necks very necessary card. I would give 3 >Snipe Hunt C : 0 Antiweenie card without pool loss for the player who plays it. 2 >Stolen Police Cruiser R : 1 Very potential card for vampire that freak drives 2+ times per turn. 2 >Sunset Strip, Hollywood R : 1 Great for certain ally decks. Secondary use always usable even if you have run out of pool or allies. 2 - Guzmo

On 20 Aug 2003 06:37:42 -0700, dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) scrawled: >Baltimore Purge needs a HELL of a lot of skill to play. It's no >stealth unless you're Ravnos, it only effects younger vampires, actually, same age or younger. > it >takes a turn to get going (so if the vampire is already in torpor at >the beginning of the next turn, it fails...) it doesn't fail at all. the requirement for the burning of the purge card during your untap phase makes no mention of the acting vampire still needing to be ready. as for anarch revolt, i saw a suggestion somewhere ages ago that the pool damage should just be moved from untap phase to discard phase. solves all sorts of issues people have with it ('guaranteed pool loss for your prey' and 'costs nothing to play', are both 'negated' by this change..) salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> writes: > Nope. Molotov cocktail is Free and has absolutely no drawback. Plus it can > be put in play by an ally (like a renegade garou) which would burn their > targets -nasty surprise. I beg to differ. "Strike: put this card on this minion;" - I'd say that's a *huge* drawback. My strike does nothing to the opposing minion, but the opposing minion's strike lands on me. "Beginning with the next round of this combat, the bearer can strike with this weapon" - another drawback. You need presses, and you can't use additional strikes to equip and use the Molotov on the same round. Molotov Cocktail works wonderfully in Trap-based combat, which by it's nature has to deal with these issues anyway. Trapparition, Undead Persistence, Thoughts Betraying Goratrix - they can all start emulating Finns in 1939 and burrrrrning their opposition. -- Nature *is* wasteful; but how well She can afford it! Nature *is* false; but I'm a bit of a liar myself. Nature *is* useless; but then how beautiful She is! Nature *is* cruel; but I too am a Sadist. - Aleister Crowley

On 20 Aug 2003 20:03:47 +0300, <h...@iki.fi.remove.these.to.reply.invalid> (Janne Hägglund) scrawled: >"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> writes: > > >> Nope. Molotov cocktail is Free and has absolutely no drawback. Plus it can >> be put in play by an ally (like a renegade garou) which would burn their >> targets -nasty surprise. > > I beg to differ. > > "Strike: put this card on this minion;" - I'd say that's a *huge* drawback. >My strike does nothing to the opposing minion, but the opposing minion's >strike lands on me. play it _as_ your additional strike, and maybe dodge their initial strike? if you're going cel or obt, i guess....hmmm... > "Beginning with the next round of this combat, the bearer can strike with >this weapon" - another drawback. You need presses, and you can't use >additional strikes to equip and use the Molotov on the same round. that's called 'game balance and good design', or something to that effect. if it totally kicked arse in every situation, most people would call it broken, although some more conservative people might say 'it's on the high end of the power curve'. > Molotov Cocktail works wonderfully in Trap-based combat, which by it's >nature has to deal with these issues anyway. Trapparition, Undead >Persistence, Thoughts Betraying Goratrix - they can all start emulating >Finns in 1939 and burrrrrning their opposition. ummmm...i agree that it can be used in those situations.....however, i'm pretty damn sure Goratrix would prefer to use Walk of Flame instead.... [ quoted text not captured ]

<snipped> > Can we see the decklist ? > I've published some anarch swarm based decklists since Anarchs came out (1 brujah, 1 ventrue, can't remember if I've published more than those) and in the Camarilla Conclave 2003 I've added the decklist of the anarch deck I played there, but it's not a problem to copy-paste it here: Deck Name: Bakunin was right Created By: Tom Description: Swarm steadily. Built up your vamps, but don't bleed a lot at first unless the whole table has it's attention on someone else. Once one player has died, or you had enough resources to defend yourself, go put in play brujah debates and bleed. I find it really nice to play a swarm, weenie deck that a) let's other people play, to some extend, and b)doesn't go crazily bleeding for 1 with 8 minions turn after turn. Crypt: (16 cards, Min: 5, Max: 20, Avg: 3,00) --------------------------------------------- 1 Volker CEL pot 5, Brujah, Prince 2 Brachah for CEL PRE 5, Brujah 1 Black Cat CEL pot pre 5, Brujah 1 Yuri cel pot pre 4, Brujah 1 Hector Sosa pre POT 4, Brujah 1 Uma Hatch cel pre 3, Brujah 1 Raziya Samater ani pot 3, Brujah 1 Dre cel pot 3, Brujah 1 Vasilis pre 2, Brujah 1 Magdelena Schaefer THA 2, Caitiff 1 Lupo pot 2, Brujah 1 Angel cel 2, Brujah 1 Smudge the Ignored none 1, Caitiff 1 Nik cel 1, Caitiff 1 Antoinette DuChamp cel pre 1, Caitiff Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (26 cards) 1 Anarch Free Press (The) 5 Blood Doll 6 Brujah Debate 1 Coven, The 2 Direct Intervention 3 Fortitude 2 Haven Uncovered 1 Hospital Food 1 Parthenon, The 1 Powerbase: Montreal 2 Seattle Committee 1 Warzone Hunting Ground Action (19 cards) 1 Aranthebes, The Immortal 3 Atonement 1 Fee Stake: Corte 1 Fee Stake: Los Angeles 1 Fee Stake: New York 1 Fee Stake: Perth 4 Revelation of the Sire 4 Sanguine Instruction 2 Smash and Grab 1 Status Perfectus (The) Political Action (8 cards) 3 Anarch Salon 4 Consanguineous Boon 1 Rumors of Gehenna Reaction (21 cards) 5 Car Bomb 2 Delaying Tactics 5 Forced Awakening 4 Mole (The) 5 Wake with Evening's Freshness Combat (16 cards) 11 Diversion 1 Orgy of Blood 4 Taste of Vitae > Thanks. > Julien M. It's allways good to spawn anarch seeds ;-) Smiling Tom

"Smiling Tom" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote > Deck Name: Bakunin was right > Created By: Tom this is a deck i would never play =/ I can't imagine sweep a table with this. > Crypt: (16 cards, Min: 5, Max: 20, Avg: 3,00) > --------------------------------------------- > 1 Volker CEL pot 5, Brujah, Prince > 2 Brachah for CEL PRE 5, Brujah > 1 Black Cat CEL pot pre 5, Brujah > 1 Yuri cel pot pre 4, Brujah > 1 Hector Sosa pre POT 4, Brujah > 1 Uma Hatch cel pre 3, Brujah > 1 Raziya Samater ani pot 3, Brujah > 1 Dre cel pot 3, Brujah > 1 Vasilis pre 2, Brujah > 1 Magdelena Schaefer THA 2, Caitiff > 1 Lupo pot 2, Brujah > 1 Angel cel 2, Brujah > 1 Smudge the Ignored none 1, Caitiff > 1 Nik cel 1, Caitiff > 1 Antoinette DuChamp cel pre 1, Caitiff only 2 vampires can pass the Fee stakes as they are. I know you play sanguine instructions, but how are the odds you will have a vamp with 2 sup disciplines (Brachah) to teach the youngers ? Besides this in combat you rely on Diversion but if the fortitude master do not come, you have zero prevention : it's a double weakness since you need the fortitude card & the anarch status. I'm puzzled. > Library: (90 cards) > ------------------- > Master (26 cards) 26 masters ! mein gott :) > 1 Anarch Free Press (The) > 5 Blood Doll > 6 Brujah Debate even with this your vampires are not scary. A weenie that can hurt me for 2 or 3 maybe. So what ? and anyone can burn the debates, one stealth is enough ! > 1 Coven, The > 2 Direct Intervention > 3 Fortitude > 2 Haven Uncovered > 1 Hospital Food > 1 Parthenon, The > 1 Powerbase: Montreal > 2 Seattle Committee > 1 Warzone Hunting Ground > > Action (19 cards) > 1 Aranthebes, The Immortal > 3 Atonement > 1 Fee Stake: Corte > 1 Fee Stake: Los Angeles > 1 Fee Stake: New York > 1 Fee Stake: Perth > 4 Revelation of the Sire > 4 Sanguine Instruction > 2 Smash and Grab > 1 Status Perfectus (The) 3 attonment + 4 revelations + 4 sanguine = way too much setup. Come in our playgroup and get rushed to death, or bled for 10 on the third turn. > Political Action (8 cards) > 3 Anarch Salon > 4 Consanguineous Boon > 1 Rumors of Gehenna > > Reaction (21 cards) > 5 Car Bomb you have to be anarch in the first place : you only have seattle comitee to help here. > 2 Delaying Tactics > 5 Forced Awakening > 4 Mole (The) > 5 Wake with Evening's Freshness lots of wake : good ! but don't you fear the 14 wakey's would jam your hand ? > Combat (16 cards) > 11 Diversion > 1 Orgy of Blood > 4 Taste of Vitae With no press, no S:ce, no valid strike at all, how will you handle the fights ? just puch and puch again hoping the brujah debate will be in place for more power ? I can see no bleed, no rush either (except for the 2 havens). How do you oust your prey ? I'm just curious !

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> escribió en el mensaje news:3f448ee7$0$18915$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net... > > "Smiling Tom" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote > > > Deck Name: Bakunin was right > > Created By: Tom > > this is a deck i would never play =/ I can't imagine sweep a table with > this. then you'll loose lots of fun packed on these small caps. [ quoted text not captured ] Well, then I might feel really happy with myself, as this deck has granted me 2 final rounds in two different tournaments, with a global of 4 GW/1 tie/ 3 looses (all three against heavy merciless speed bleeders as my first predator, so got no time to set up at all). So it's either that your vision of this get is not so accurate or that I'm a much more better player than I thought. The other game in which I've got problems, but finally won, was one involving 3 other combat decks (prey and predator eurobrujah close combat, the other one weenie celerity-gun) and it get really painfull when tension in the ranks hit the table. > > > > Library: (90 cards) > > ------------------- > > Master (26 cards) > > 26 masters ! mein gott :) > > > 1 Anarch Free Press (The) > > 5 Blood Doll > > 6 Brujah Debate > > even with this your vampires are not scary. A weenie that can hurt me for 2 > or 3 maybe. So what ? and anyone can burn the debates, one stealth is enough > ! In every game I've played with this deck, I end up with no less than 9 minions in play 1-2 baronys and 4 brujah debates. Hitting for 5 with 4 maneuvers with vasillis or smudge is much something no one wants to meet. Ok, you can torp him, but you'll surely come with me, too. And i have still 8 other vamps in play, what about you? > > Action (19 cards) > > 1 Aranthebes, The Immortal > > 3 Atonement > > 1 Fee Stake: Corte > > 1 Fee Stake: Los Angeles > > 1 Fee Stake: New York > > 1 Fee Stake: Perth > > 4 Revelation of the Sire > > 4 Sanguine Instruction > > 2 Smash and Grab > > 1 Status Perfectus (The) > > 3 attonment + 4 revelations + 4 sanguine = way too much setup. > Come in our playgroup and get rushed to death, or bled for 10 on the third > turn. > Again, it's a weenie deck. You'll end tired of spending your precious combos of combat cards to send to torpor a minion that hits back eithout spending a single card and that will be probably rescued. Oh, I forgot it! You won't get filled back at all with your tastes, as my vamps are almost allways on 1 blood, so the attrition will end with your rushers. Remember, lots of minions=lots of actions, so don't worry, I usually don't have to bother for an action clogging my hand. > > Reaction (21 cards) > > 5 Car Bomb > > you have to be anarch in the first place : you only have seattle comitee to > help here. Not at all. In 8 tournament games with relatively good level, only in one table I got problems to become anarch. I put one or two vamps on the first turn, so they become anarch quite easily. by the time most of the players put they second vamp in play, i've got 4 and use the 4 transfers to get another one from the crypt. > > > 2 Delaying Tactics > > 5 Forced Awakening > > 4 Mole (The) > > 5 Wake with Evening's Freshness > > lots of wake : good ! > but don't you fear the 14 wakey's would jam your hand ? No, there's always someone who attempts to remove a Brujah Debate cross table. So they are easy to cycle. As you mention, lots of actions to do in this deck, so you are tapped with 2/3rds of your vamps most of the time. Also, really nice to combine them with car bomb. I still remember the face of a lasombra vote-bleeder who attempted to bleed with govern with gratiano, and 3 of my guys woke, played car bomb, while the atoned one attempts to block with a mole in my hand and aranthebes in play. This is what anarch decks are: Team work collaboration. > > > Combat (16 cards) > > 11 Diversion > > 1 Orgy of Blood > > 4 Taste of Vitae > > With no press, no S:ce, no valid strike at all, how will you handle the > fights ? just puch and puch again hoping the brujah debate will be in place > for more power ? just puch for 3 insistently and bleed with 9+ minions. And keep an eye on BruDeb, of course. I never put them in play unless a) I've got as many vamps in play as non-ventrue vamps are in play, and b) whether I've got ways to untap or not. Most games I've won has been due to people obsessioned in removing BD, and ending with most of their vamps in play though successfully removing them. Then they were tapped so I could bleed for one with all the guys for an easy oust. Insistency allways is a key against CE, and 4 maneuvers are enough to run away of most close combat decks not packing lots of drawing of the beast. And indeed you'll end up beating a 1-3 cap with all your payload and no way to taste the blood back > I can see no bleed, no rush either (except for the 2 havens). How do you > oust your prey ? Bleeding for one with 9 to 14 angry brujahs, blocking key actions if they are not stealthy enough, gaining blood with conboon if there are not many votes at the table. > I'm just curious ! > You are not the first one who don't believe this deck works. But I asure you it does. I'm a well known player in spain, specially in the area of barcelona and palma. Most of tournaments i play in, i end up either winning or at least reaching final round, always with unexpected, original decks (at least for what is known here). Some players started mobbing directly against me whenever we coincided at a tournament table, for these fact, i develope more and more "me versus the world" decks. It's the fifth brujah debate deck I've used in a tournament, and in everyone I ended up in the final round. But in everyone I also lost that final round due to the stealth bleeder who had reached the final, too. Something a few major boons might correct ;-) Smiling Tom

salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<hn77kv4psr8g6tpde...@4ax.com>... > On 20 Aug 2003 06:37:42 -0700, dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) > scrawled: > > >Baltimore Purge needs a HELL of a lot of skill to play. It's no > >stealth unless you're Ravnos, it only effects younger vampires, > > actually, same age or younger. > > > it > >takes a turn to get going (so if the vampire is already in torpor at > >the beginning of the next turn, it fails...) > > it doesn't fail at all. the requirement for the burning of the purge > card during your untap phase makes no mention of the acting vampire > still needing to be ready. It says "this vampire and the chosen vampires go to torpor". Surely this means that the vampire has to be out of torpor in order for it to work, for if the vampire can't actively go to torpor, then the effect is not as it is described in the text. Since it is a mandatory effect, then surely the effect must happen in the prescribed manner? If it said "this vampire goes to torpor if not there already" then I'd buy it. > as for anarch revolt, i saw a suggestion somewhere ages ago that the > pool damage should just be moved from untap phase to discard phase. > solves all sorts of issues people have with it ('guaranteed pool loss > for your prey' and 'costs nothing to play', are both 'negated' by this > change..) Hmmm... a bit. It still makes it free, but you get burned too. I'd be happier with a 1 pool cost. DH

salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> writes: > On 20 Aug 2003 20:03:47 +0300, > <h...@iki.fi.remove.these.to.reply.invalid> (Janne Hägglund) scrawled: > > >"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> writes: > > > > > >> be put in play by an ally (like a renegade garou) which would burn their > >> targets -nasty surprise. > > > > I beg to differ. > > > > "Strike: put this card on this minion;" - I'd say that's a *huge* drawback. > >My strike does nothing to the opposing minion, but the opposing minion's > >strike lands on me. > > play it _as_ your additional strike, and maybe dodge their initial > strike? if you're going cel or obt, i guess....hmmm... Or use superior Flash + Molotov. Hmm... A free combo, if they S:CE I lose nothing... (Come, my minions! Let us plan for world domination!) > that's called 'game balance and good design', or something to that > effect. As opposed to "free and has absolutely no drawback," which I objected. > ...however, > i'm pretty damn sure Goratrix would prefer to use Walk of Flame > instead.... Not necessarily. A Walk of Flame cannot reset a Trap. [ quoted text not captured ]

hamdamcwa wrote: > It says "this vampire and the chosen vampires go to torpor". Surely > this means that the vampire has to be out of torpor in order for it to > work, No. > for if the vampire can't actively go to torpor, then the effect > is not as it is described in the text. What is this "actively go to torpor" you've just coined? The vampire goes to torpor. That is, you take him from wherever he is and place him in torpor. Like getting the edge if you already have it (the bleed still applies) or tapping if you're already tapped (the rest of the effect of Fear of Mekhet, e.g., still applies). > is not as it is described in the text. Since it is a mandatory effect, > then surely the effect must happen in the prescribed manner? If it > said "this vampire goes to torpor if not there already" then I'd buy > it. So it would also fizzle if any of the chosen vampires enter torpor before the effect "goes off"? Clearly, no. If it said "place this ready vampire in torpor to send the chosen vampires to torpor", then I'd "buy" that the vampire must be ready. As it is, the vampire and the chosen vampires are all sent to torpor, even if the vampire and/or any of the chosen vampires are already in torpor. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:02:08 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >hamdamcwa wrote: >> It says "this vampire and the chosen vampires go to torpor". Surely >> this means that the vampire has to be out of torpor in order for it to >> work, > >No. yeah. i seem to recall Reform Body works even if you're in torpor, despite it's 'go to torpor and then gain 2 blood' type text. >So it would also fizzle if any of the chosen vampires enter torpor >before the effect "goes off"? Clearly, no. just for the sake of curiosity, how might one do that, currently? that is, send a chosen vampire into torpor in between it being chosen and the next sentence on the BP card? [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:02:08 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> > scrawled: >>So it would also fizzle if any of the chosen vampires enter torpor >>before the effect "goes off"? Clearly, no. > > just for the sake of curiosity, how might one do that, currently? that > is, send a chosen vampire into torpor in between it being chosen and > the next sentence on the BP card? Sorry. I was thinking that the choice was made when played, not at the untap. Ignore that. [ quoted text not captured ]

> 1. Aranthebes, the Immortal. Without a doubt my top pick. Doubles of > this card will go into every non-Storyline tourney deck I ever build. > He rocks. I'm with you 100% here, gaining cross table favour for removal of this card by some cheesy weeny bleed deck is quite hard. A computer hack for 1 is so very winZ. Roger A "I think the people above me are having sex, either that, or their sleeping restlessly and agreeing with each other a lot."

hamdamcwa expounded: > > as for anarch revolt, i saw a suggestion somewhere ages ago that the > > pool damage should just be moved from untap phase to discard phase. > > solves all sorts of issues people have with it ('guaranteed pool loss > > for your prey' and 'costs nothing to play', are both 'negated' by this > > change..) > > Hmmm... a bit. It still makes it free, but you get burned too. I'd be > happier with a 1 pool cost. "lose a pool in your discard phase" would happen the turn you put the AR in play in your Master phase so it would no longer be free.

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:03:30 +0100, Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.com> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] well, unless you got rid of it yourself during your turn. but essentially it'll cost one, plus prevent a guaranteed pool loss to everyone else. [ quoted text not captured ]

Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19af43fe4...@news.freeserve.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] It would still free to play. Although the effect would hit you in your discard phase, a lot can happen between your master and discard phase, namely: 1) Bloat (additional master phases and Minion Taps, Governs / Ecoterrorist style effects and transfers, Blood Dolls, etc) 2) Vote (Con Boon and Parity Shift are the main two, not to mention Voter Captivation) 3) Crazy Actions (Art Scam) All this sort of stuff will recover you pool nicely. If you had to pay for it in the Master phase, that would deter someone putting down 2 or three a turn via Rumours and Parthenon antics etc. since they could end up beng close to ousted. This is my main beef with it at the moment - because it is free and doesn't hit you in the same turn, you bleed the table for potentially 3 in the first turn alone and you don't get hurt one bit. So, if you made it cost to play, it would be a lot fairer. Even the abstract makes more sense: Mr Methusula, sitting in his crypt can click his fingers and Anarchs start revolting en masse? No, surely he would have to extend some of his influence to make it happen - i.e. it costs a pool. Dave

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F44B4C...@white-wolf.com>... > hamdamcwa wrote: > > It says "this vampire and the chosen vampires go to torpor". Surely > > this means that the vampire has to be out of torpor in order for it to > > work, > > No. > > > for if the vampire can't actively go to torpor, then the effect > > is not as it is described in the text. > > What is this "actively go to torpor" you've just coined? It's not a term. The card says that the vampire and the other chosen vampires must go to torpor. "Go" suggests positive action. If the vampire is already in torpor, it cannot "GO" to torpor as it is there already. Therefore the mandatory effect of the card cannot take place as the vampire would have to come out of torpor to "go" to torpor, and the card does not provide for that. It explicitly says "go to torpor". It needs rewording to say something like "go to torpor, if not there already" for it to work, on face value, in the way you suggest. DH

emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.03082...@posting.google.com>... > dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) wrote in message news:<9e10847c.03082...@posting.google.com>... > > > > Really, is there anyone out there who can honestly say "I like playing > > > > with lots of Anarch Revolts in my deck as I find it a challenging and > > > > exciting way to spend an afternoon". NO. Not even you, random "me > > > > too-er", you are lying just to further wind me up. > > Makes for faster games, though, doesn't it? Macdonalds maskes for a faster dinner, but it doesn't mean I like going there to eat. I'm glad to see ARs in > other people's hands at tournaments, because it's less likely that the > table will time out, i.e. more likely that I'll win that table. > > Anarch Revolt basically turns the game into a race in which the AR > player has a head start. The more revolts on the table, the larger the > head start. This is great for the person with the Anarch Revolts, but sucks for everyone else. > If you're smart, you can make AR work for you. Play as if you started > with 20 pool instead of 30. Bring out less vampires than you normally > would, play defensively and let the ARs whomp your prey. Save a Sudden > Reversal for the AR deck's Life Boon, and voila. Yes, but I have 30 pool for a reason. One free master card shouldn't have the power to change the whole way a table plays. It is too powerful and always has been. > On the other hand, you could piss and scream about how much the card > sucks, which really just sounds like "I don't knooooow how to deaaaal > with this strategy!" :) Better learn to, because I guarantee that I'm > going to play a AR deck at any tournament that you and I are both in. Oh, with the decks I design, I usually have a way round them. Rush. Smash. > > So it needs to be fixed. Actually, the easiest way of fixing it is in > > making the damage only applicable to player, his predator and his > > prey. That way the whole table isn't so messed up and it will be much > > harder to win. > > Actually, the easiest way to fix the card would be to errata it with > flavor text reading, "IF THIS CARD IS PLAYED, ALL PLAYERS SHOULD > ENGAGE THEIR BRAINS." How does this fix it? > > I still think there is milage in a Nossie Spawn deck and Destructive > > Secrets. If only they could bleed more. > > Try a Nossie Prince Spawn vote deck instead, with Night Moves. I got a > lot of mileage out of mine. Done one like this. The Secret is in the Spying Missions. DH

On 22 Aug 2003 00:46:24 -0700, dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) scrawled: >All this sort of stuff will recover you pool nicely. If you had to pay >for it in the Master phase, that would deter someone putting down 2 or >three a turn via Rumours and Parthenon antics etc. since they could >end up beng close to ousted. or, more likely, put their prey in Parity Shift range. then the anarchs finish them off. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Smiling Tom" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote in message news:<bhvkal$gmq$1...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>... > "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> escribió en el mensaje > news:3f434a32$0$19877$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net... > > > > "Tobias" <tobiasop...@hotmail.com> wrote > > <snip> > > Not a single obedience ?Just rush Anson. Just rush huitzi. Just bloat. > Just > > switch place at the right moment to gain all the huicy pool from the > > oustings. Rushing Anson helps a little (especially against the bloat), but the deck still keeps going nonetheless. The other options are fine, of course. Problem is that you probably can't out-bloat this deck, unless it's your primary strategy. > And where are the PROTECTED RESOURCES any master's deck needs????????? > Also, delaying tactics and 4xdirect intervention. A couple of Bleeding the > Vine might come handy, as will Gambit Accepted, 4xmillicent smith, brothers > grimm... This is just incarnation of the deck (which is not mine). I'm not sure why there's no protected resources, though. You'd have to talk to Wouter (who's also online in the NG often) to figure that out. > > There are many answers to those decks, i can't understand why you fear > them > > : use your brain and talk with the other players the second you realize > what > > the deck do. I'm not scared of this deck. I'm not even sure I've been at the same table with it, ever. T

hamdamcwa wrote: > It's not a term. The card says that the vampire and the other chosen > vampires must go to torpor. "Go" suggests positive action. If the > vampire is already in torpor, it cannot "GO" to torpor as it is there > already. Therefore the mandatory effect of the card cannot take place > as the vampire would have to come out of torpor to "go" to torpor, and > the card does not provide for that. > > It explicitly says "go to torpor". It needs rewording to say something > like "go to torpor, if not there already" for it to work, on face > value, in the way you suggest. Incorrect. See the parts of my post that you snipped. [ quoted text not captured ]

dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) writes: > > Anarch Revolt basically turns the game into a race in which the AR > > player has a head start. The more revolts on the table, the larger the > > head start. > > This is great for the person with the Anarch Revolts, but sucks for > everyone else. Umm, isn't that what every single focused deck out there tries to do? If I play pure rush, I want to turn the entire game into an orgy of ultra violence. If I play sneak & bleed, I want to turn the entire game into a megableed- fest. In summary, I want the other players to start playing the game *my* way. Because my deck has been designed for exactly that kind of game, and their decks propably not. [ quoted text not captured ]

dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) wrote in message news:<9e10847c.03082...@posting.google.com>... > emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.03082...@posting.google.com>... > > Makes for faster games, though, doesn't it? > > Macdonalds maskes for a faster dinner, but it doesn't mean I like > going there to eat. And this is an accurate analogy makes sense because...? "Ferrari makes a faster car, and I like driving one." "Liquid Plumr makes a faster drain cleaner, and I like using it." "Cold malt liquor makes a faster date, and that I like." Analogies are easy to make, but they aren't any kind of proof. When they aren't even funny, they're pretty useless. I can give you a dozen references in this group to posts where people complain about a "game that never ends." "21 turns (oh god please make it stop)." People do want to play faster games sometimes, especially when it's the last game of a long night, or when you are at a tournament and don't want the table to time out. > > Anarch Revolt basically turns the game into a race in which the AR > > player has a head start. The more revolts on the table, the larger the > > head start. > > This is great for the person with the Anarch Revolts, but sucks for > everyone else. Half the time you argue that Anarch Revolts give too much advantage to the person that plays them. The other half of the time you argue that AR decks don't win because they're out of control. > Yes, but I have 30 pool for a reason. That reason is "the game designers balanced the game that way." It's the same reason Anarch Revolt was printed in the first place and never errata'd. > One free master card shouldn't > have the power to change the whole way a table plays. Why not? Millicant Smith does. Smiling Jack does. Cultivated Blood Shortage does. Tension in the Ranks does. > It is too > powerful and always has been. More powerful than Blood Doll, Minion Tap, Info Highway, Dreams of the Sphinx, etc? Funny that we don't see it more often. > Oh, with the decks I design, I usually have a way round them. Rush. > Smash. Well, there you go. > > Actually, the easiest way to fix the card would be to errata it with > > flavor text reading, "IF THIS CARD IS PLAYED, ALL PLAYERS SHOULD > > ENGAGE THEIR BRAINS." > > How does this fix it? Left as an exercise for the reader.

As I've been sadly absent from the newsgroup mostly for a while (I was appaled to see that I didn't even register on the last stats that Lasombra posted. I'm a tool.) due to ISP changes and failing to get Newswatcher to work for me, I figure I might as well jump back in big... > The Anarch Free Press C : 2 (very good for Anarchs) A good card, if you are using Anarchs. The whole Anarch angle is sketchy, as it requires a lot of work to pull off, but a few of the Anarch cards are so good, that it is often completely worth it. > Anarch Railroad R2 : 2 Also a good, utilitarian card for Anarchs. > Anarch Salon C2 : 1 I'd rate it higher than that--yeah, anyone can benefit by going Anarch, but then they are wasting actions (rather than killing you), and you can use it to make friends. Or get a Cryptic Rider through. > Aranthebes, The Immortal R : 2 Good, generic intercept for blocky decks. 2 out of 3 seems right. > Banshee Ironwail R : 1 (who needs a Unique Bang Nakh ??) It does other stuff, too. I'm not using it a lot, but I could see it being useful in some melee weapon deck. Oh, wait... > Bear-Baiting R : 1 (cornercase) This card has so much text, I don't even know what it does. > Bleeding the Vine R : 0 !!! It looks at first like a good card, but it > costs pool, and you don't even have the "surprise factor" ; I have two for > trade... Master control is always a good thing. This is a fantastic card for late game lock down--play it early, leave it tapped until you really need your prey to not be able to play, like, a Minion Tap. I'd play one of these *way* before I'd play 1 Sudden. Having 1 Sudden in your deck means that you get it in your hand and it clogs things up till you just play it to kill an Animalism master on some guy across the table, just to get rid of it. Bleeding you play early, it is unlikely to be contested (as no one likes it...), your opponents can't kill it, and when you need it, you can untap it. It isn't, like, a 3 or anything, but it is certainly more useful than you give it credit for. > Blow Torch C : 2 Good--anyone have a weenie obf/disguised/Amaranth torch deck yet? > Body Bag C : 0 ; it requires an Anarch, cost 2 blood... At 1 it would have > been playable. It isn't that bad for delaying the inevitable. > Border Skirmish C2 : 1, because Harbingers can use it ; for everybody else, > it is useless. Clearly corner case, but makes the "discard" deck that much more viable. Still not a good idea, but people seem to like to try. > Brinksmanship R : 3 for HoS Again, more incentive to try and make a"discard" deck. I don't think it is really doable, but ya know, whatever. > Car Bomb C :1 ??? Car Bomb is huge. Disciplinless effective intercept with minimal cost? This card is what makes any Anarch deck a threat, unless you have significant stealth. > Carnivale R : 2 I like this card, as it is stealth in a pinch for a clan that needs stealth. Yeah, it could just be an Obf master, but then you need obf cards to go with it. Not fantastic, but reasonable. > Chiram's Hold R2 : 0, like all the Holds !!! > Cold Amber's Hold R2 : 0 (and it may be the best of the holds...) Meh. The hold cards are sketchy, at best. > Cooler C : 1 Not horrible. > Cry Wolf R2 : 1 ; I think it will see very little light except in some > weird decks ; of course, if you can turn it into an Abomination it is much > more interesting... It is all about the Abomination, this card. > Delivery Truck R : 0 ; come on, we have Storage Annex and Pier 13 !! > Diversion C2 : 1 ; no doubt the best multi-use card, but it ain't good > enough to justify clogging your hand with useless combat before you succeed > in becoming Anarch, IMO. Yo. Diversion is, like, one of the best cards ever. Prevent 2 damage or an additional strike? You make an Anarch deck *specifically* so you can use, like, 20 of these. > Drum of Xipe Totec R : 2 > Dummy Corporation C : 1, but still lame. Dummy Corp is nice, handy pool gain. Easily cycleable, people forget about it, and you are always going to be bled for at least 2 in a game. I wouldn't necessarily use, like, 10 of them, but if you have space, it is good, light bleed defense. > Elder Michaelis's Hold R2 : 0 > Emissary C : 1 (too costly : Baron, another anarch, tap...) > Fee Stakes : 2 because it gives new voting options ; not 3 because it can be > destroyed, and there are only 6 to contest... > Fiendish Tongue C2 : 2 for Tzimisce, 1 for Sabbat... This card is fantastic. Computer Hacking is one of the best cards in the game. This is just like computer hacking, but with a bonus for one clan, a generic bonus and a minimal cost (youhave to be Sabbat). Just don't use them with non Sabbat vampires. > Filchware's Pawn Shop R : 1 > Firebrand C : 3 (may be one of the best reasons to play Anarch vote...) > Galaric's Legacy C : 2 > Gambit Accepted R : 3 !!! This card is a must in all "fast" decks, and you > can even put many in game !! Although I've seen it backfire at its player > more often than I've seen it make him win... Yeah, I really like this card, as it is funny. > Gather R : 3 Sketchy. Difficult to use, only works, really, in one type of deck (Gangrel intercept wall). > Ghouled C : 2 > Gift of Experience R2 : 1 (you get tapped !!!) :-( Makes Adavnced vampires much more playable, though. > Go Anarch C2 : 2 > Highway Haven: RV C : 0 > Hospital Food C : 1 > Improvised Tactics C2 :1 > Into the Fire C : 2 (long needed, although marginally useful) > Irregular Protocol C : 1, can still be useful, especially against Awe / VC > Liberty Club Intrigue R : 0. Lame, lame, lame !!! > Life in the City C2 : Great, another Ascendance !!! 0. ??? This card is really good in the appropriate circumstances. And really good for beefing up thin decks. If you can get the card cycling happening, it is just, like, free blood. > Magazine R : 2 > Mob Rule C : 2 > The Mole C2 : 1, because it can't be used on anarchs. > Molotov Cocktail C : 1 (burn after Combat Ends !!!) :-( > Nosferatu Bestial R : 1 ??? Also kind of corner case, but in the right deck, this card is fantastic. > Out of the Frying Pan C : 2 > Paragon R : 2 (the Ventrue needed so much another great card...) > Petra Resonance R : 1 > Rant! C : 1 > Redline R : 1 > Regarhagan's Hold R2 : 0 > Reins of Power C : 3 !!! Power to the big voters !!! > Repo Man R : 2 > Seattle Committee R2 : 2 > Skullduggery C2 : 2 for FoS cycling, but 1 for the rest... > Smash and Grab C2 : 0 > Snipe Hunt C : 0 ??? Also a "wha"? A *very* strong defensive card in vote decks. Throw one or two in, much like one would throw in a couple Ancillae Empowerments into a vote deck, and as vote cards are so easily cycleable (you can pitch them for votes on other player turns), throwing in a few corner case cards is easy. If your predator or prey is playing a weenie deck, and you pull one of these off, it can be devestating. -Peter

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >> Cry Wolf R2 : 1 ; I think it will see very little light except in some >> weird decks ; of course, if you can turn it into an Abomination it is much >> more interesting... > It is all about the Abomination, this card. It's too bad you can't insta-abominate it, though. That whole "put allies into the uncontrolled region" and the Abomination's specific "untapped werewolf ally in your ready region" text sure makes this slightly less appetizing, since you have to wait a whole other turn, and hope that the Wolf survives its mandatory rush, and find a way to untap him, before the Abomination is playable.

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote > > Snipe Hunt C : 0 > > ??? Also a "wha"? A *very* strong defensive card in vote decks. Throw > one or two in, much like one would throw in a couple Ancillae > Empowerments into a vote deck but why not put ancillae empowerment and anarchist uprising instead ? usually, pool damage is better than tapping vampires !

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > but why not put ancillae empowerment and anarchist uprising instead ? > > usually, pool damage is better than tapping vampires ! 'Cause then you take the pool damage too. If you tap out your prey's vampires, you slow them down, and get to mangle them while they are tapped. If you tap out your predator's vampires, you get a turn of freedom, while they get savaged, but act as a barrier between you and your grand predator. Sure, if you are playing a deck that can suck up the pool damage, then Anarchist Uprising is often a better deal. But sometimes not. -Peter

In message <m2n0e13...@etemenanki.homelinux.net>, h...@iki.fi.remove.t hese.to.reply.invalid writes: > Umm, isn't that what every single focused deck out there tries to do? > > If I play pure rush, I want to turn the entire game into an orgy of >ultra violence. Do you? I'd rather see the game allow me to place well-timed rushes at the vampires I need to take out, with minimum effort, due to the card intensive nature of most of the competitive combat strategies. An orgy of ultra violence would be pretty counter-productive. I can't Taste of Vitae if I'm going to torpor. Only the Gangrel (and potentially the Samedi, if you were going for a combat angle there) would come out well, due to their enhanced defensive options (Song of Serenity, Fortitude, Flesh of Marble etc.) > If I play sneak & bleed, I want to turn the entire game into a megableed- >fest. Actually, that'd be pretty scary. One of sneak and bleed's assets is (potential) speed[0]. One of its problems is when two sneak and bleed decks end up as predator and prey. Who ousts whom first? My prey ousts his prey, he ends up on 6 more pool. Nor do I necessarily want my predator playing Sneak and Bleed. Bear in mind that old school Malks are not the only sneak and bleed. Neo-Malks and !Malks find sneak and bleed easy to do, as do the Setites potentially, as do the Lasombra. The Lasombra and Old School Malks do pretty well out of other people playing Sneak and Bleed, since they can bring in a small truck of Dominate bounce. Everyone else is doing much worse. Needing AUS - which you don't need to pull off the bleed angle - for the NeoMalks and the !Malks is a pain. You can't bounce with Dementation, and you can sneak and bleed with Obf/Dem. Being able to sneak/bleed/bounce with Obf/D*o*m gives a significant potential competitive advantage. If my predator comes in with the super sneak bleed, I could be pretty screwed. > In summary, I want the other players to start playing the game *my* way. >Because my deck has been designed for exactly that kind of game, and their >decks propably not. Playing it "your way" != Playing the same style as you. Forcing players into methods of play that suit your deck doesn't mean they have to play the same style as you. Indeed, a number of decks rely on the fact that many players *won't* be playing the same as you - weenie combat/potence decks, for instance, have historically relied on the fact that people don't fight back, so you could use small vampires and rely on taking very little damage. (Of course, the game has moved on, and it's not unusual to see a fair number of guns these days. But that's a separate issue.) [0] A good player may well examine the table before striking, ascertaining the likelihood of committing the Cardinal Sin of V:TES - looking like the threat. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

In message <aadbb36b.03082...@posting.google.com>, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> writes: >> Diversion C2 : 1 ; no doubt the best multi-use card, but it ain't good >> enough to justify clogging your hand with useless combat before you succeed >> in becoming Anarch, IMO. > >Yo. Diversion is, like, one of the best cards ever. Prevent 2 damage >or an additional strike? You make an Anarch deck *specifically* so you >can use, like, 20 of these. I keep wondering if some of the Mages on Speed decks of old could be brought back into play with this - you're stealing blood (since you'll include some Theft of Vitae anyway), so you can afford the Anarch actions if you don't get out/don't include other options, and you get cel/tha. I'm not sure the discipline combos are viable these days though, if they ever were. [ quoted text not captured ]

Emmit Svenson expounded: > > > Makes for faster games, though, doesn't it? > > Macdonalds maskes for a faster dinner, but it doesn't mean I like > > going there to eat. > And this is an accurate analogy makes sense because...? > > "Ferrari makes a faster car, and I like driving one." > "Liquid Plumr makes a faster drain cleaner, and I like using it." > "Cold malt liquor makes a faster date, and that I like." The McD example established that faster is not *necessarily* better. > > One free master card shouldn't > > have the power to change the whole way a table plays. > Why not? Millicant Smith does. Smiling Jack does. Cultivated Blood > Shortage does. Tension in the Ranks does. Milli only affects one vamp at a time SMiling Jack does nothing for a whole round CBS? That's a Ventrue hoser... TiTR requires you to torporise/burn a vampire before it does anything at all. > > > Actually, the easiest way to fix the card would be to errata it with > > > flavor text reading, "IF THIS CARD IS PLAYED, ALL PLAYERS SHOULD > > > ENGAGE THEIR BRAINS." > > How does this fix it? > Left as an exercise for the reader. So you have no answer?

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:59:30 +0200, "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] but it taps them now, AND they also don't untap. Personally, i use it in my Tegyrius the Justicar deck, which has Fida'i. Call it when all your Fida'i are tapped from doing other stuff anyway. Then during your untap phase, your Fida'i don't untap as normal. But they were already not untapping as normal from their card text. and then you go and untap them by burning blood off a big Assamite. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19b0d600f...@news.freeserve.com>... > > > One free master card shouldn't > > > have the power to change the whole way a table plays. > > Why not? Millicant Smith does. Smiling Jack does. Cultivated Blood > > Shortage does. Tension in the Ranks does. > > Milli only affects one vamp at a time > SMiling Jack does nothing for a whole round > TiTR requires you to torporise/burn a vampire before it does anything at > all. > CBS? That's a Ventrue hoser... Sorry, I meant Strained Vitae Supply. All four are free master cards that change the way the whole table plays. Observe them in action sometime. > > > > Actually, the easiest way to fix the card would be to errata it with > > > > flavor text reading, "IF THIS CARD IS PLAYED, ALL PLAYERS SHOULD > > > > ENGAGE THEIR BRAINS." > > > How does this fix it? > > Left as an exercise for the reader. > > So you have no answer? Translation for the irremediably dense: The card doesn't need to be fixed. People who think it does need to learn how to play against it.