Does Khetamon pacify hostages?

Besides the missing *explicit* definition what a hostage is( ;-) ), can you influence a Peace of Khetamon'd Hostage out? If you go by the analogy of Master: Discipline cards, the Hostage counter shouldn't have any effect until the vampire is already out and about in the ready region, right? Peace of Khetamon, The Type(s):Political Action Card Text: Worth 1 vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth. Choose a vampire in torpor. Successful referendum means that vampire is placed face down in his or her controller's uncontrolled region. The vampire's blood counters, master cards, and minion cards stay with that vampire. Carver's Meat Packing and Storage Type(s):Master Pool Cost: 1 Card Text: Unique Location. When a vampire of capacity below 4 goes to torpor, put a hostage counter on him. Hostages cannot be moved to the ready region or be diablerized. During your master phase, you may tap this card to move X blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control where X is the number of hostages in torpor. Any ready vampire may burn 2 blood to burn any vampire's hostage counter during any untap phase. Burn all hostage counters if this card leaves play.

You know, an exact to the letter reading of Peace implies that the Hostage counter is thrown away. It states that blood counters, master cards and minion cards stay with that vampire, but says nothing about Hostage counters. However I would think that the counter is disabled until the point that the vampire is returned to the ready region. And on top of that, the owner of the Meat Packing cannot gain a blood for that vampire because they are not in torpor as stated on the card. David

[ quoted text not captured ] The card text for Khetamon of WW's website is The Peace of Khetamon [AH:C2, Tenth:B] Cardtype: Political Action Political Card -- Worth 1 Vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth. Choose a vampire in torpor. Successful referendum means that vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (facedown). The vampire's blood counters, master cards and minion cards stay with that vampire, with any counters they have on them (they are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled). note the added "with any counters they have on them." so when influenced out they would retain their hostage counter, which would not come back into effect (as carvers states amount of hostages in torpor) untill the vampire re-enters torpor.

There you go ... the card has added text ... misled by misquoted card text. Now that is a point against quoting card text :) David

[ quoted text not captured ] I only picked it up because I thought it was Identical to banishment, I wanted to make sure and checked the text, sorely dissappointed. it's nice to know however, that how we "think" the game should work for once turns out to be how the game actually works! -Bem.

In message <1116576053.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Frea...@yahoo.com writes: >I only picked it up because I thought it was Identical to banishment, Very few cards are identical to other cards in V:TES. A few are, for flavour, such as Elder Intervention vs Pack Tactics. I can't offhand, however, think of an exotic or unusual card that has an exact duplicate. -- James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?" 13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/

On 19 May 2005 22:34:41 -0700, Frea...@yahoo.com scrawled: > The vampire's blood >counters, master cards and minion cards stay with that vampire, with >any counters they have on them (they are out of play as long as the >vampire remains uncontrolled). i would have thought the "any counters they have on them" refers to the "blood counters, master cards and minion cards" part, not the vampire card itself. salem http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

salem wrote: > i would have thought the "any counters they have on them" refers to > the "blood counters, master cards and minion cards" part, not the > vampire card itself. Perhaps. But barring any explicit instruction to throw them away, they are not thrown away. -- LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Fri, 20 May 2005 09:19:41 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In message <1116576053.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, > Frea...@yahoo.com writes: >> I only picked it up because I thought it was Identical to banishment, > > Very few cards are identical to other cards in V:TES. A few are, for > flavour, such as Elder Intervention vs Pack Tactics. I can't offhand, > however, think of an exotic or unusual card that has an exact duplicate. Hmm. Question: If you play Pack Tactics, it gets Direct Intervented, then you are free to play Elder Intervention, right? But not the other way around (that is, if Elder Intervention gets DI-ed, you still can't play Pack Tactics)... right? -- Bye, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] Sounds right to me. Pack Tactics is the only one that checks for validity (and can't do that if it's canceled). John

In message <opsq2v2e...@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> writes: >Hmm. Question: If you play Pack Tactics, it gets Direct Intervented, > then you are free to play Elder Intervention, right? No. See the card text for Elder Intervention. "Only usable during a bleed against you. This reacting vampire gets +2 intercept. A vampire cannot play both Pack Tactics and Elder Intervention during the same action." -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

> > Hmm. Question: If you play Pack Tactics, it gets Direct Intervented, > > then you are free to play Elder Intervention, right? But not the > other > > way around (that is, if Elder Intervention gets DI-ed, you still > can't > > play Pack Tactics)... right? > > > > -- > > Bye, > > > > Daneel > > Sounds right to me. Pack Tactics is the only one that checks for > validity (and can't do that if it's canceled). Elder Intervention's card text has been updated to include the 'only one of these two' wording. Quoting LSJ from an older thread about DI: "DI cancels the effect of the card as it is played. DI doesn't erase the fact that the card was played." So you play Pack Tactics or Elder Impersonation, and it gets DI'ed - you cannot then play the other one, because that incoming copy's text notices that the other was played previously and prohibits the play. (A similar situation occurs with Immortal Grapple, there's plenty of commentary on the newsgroup about IG/DI's interaction.) PT/EI are not worded like bleed modifiers where card text prohibits future plays of other cards (where cancelling the effect via DI cancels that restriction, allowing a 'Threats-DI-Conditioning' sequence), instead the card looks for previously played cards. > John -John Flournoy

On 20 May 2005 12:23:18 -0700, John Flournoy <carn...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Hmm. Question: If you play Pack Tactics, it gets Direct > Intervented, >> > then you are free to play Elder Intervention, right? But not the >> other >> > way around (that is, if Elder Intervention gets DI-ed, you still >> can't >> > play Pack Tactics)... right? >> > >> > -- >> > Bye, >> > >> > Daneel >> >> Sounds right to me. Pack Tactics is the only one that checks for >> validity (and can't do that if it's canceled). > > Elder Intervention's card text has been updated to include the 'only > one of these two' wording. > > Quoting LSJ from an older thread about DI: > > "DI cancels the effect of the card as it is played. DI doesn't erase > the fact that the card was played." > > So you play Pack Tactics or Elder Impersonation, and it gets DI'ed - > you cannot then play the other one, because that incoming copy's text > notices that the other was played previously and prohibits the play. Sorry, I was once again under the impression that cards do what is printed on them... ;) Of course, I did not check whether the online card text was altered. My printed copies of Elder Intervention do not have the "cannot play both" clause on them, so I was under the impression that only Pack Tactics has it (which is enough a prohibition unless it gets played first *and* it gets cancelled, which made it seem like a cornercase situation hardly needing a fix). Of course, the card may have seen print with the new text, I'm not sure, as I hardly ever use it (and stick to the old cards anyways - for aesthetic reasons - when possible). -- Bye, Daneel

> Sorry, I was once again under the impression that cards do what is > printed on them... ;) > > Of course, I did not check whether the online card text was altered. > My printed copies of Elder Intervention do not have the "cannot play > both" clause on them, so I was under the impression that only Pack > Tactics has it (which is enough a prohibition unless it gets played > first *and* it gets cancelled, which made it seem like a cornercase > situation hardly needing a fix). Right. Your printed copies lack the 'cannot play both' because Elder Impersonation was printed several years before the existence of the functionally-identical Pack Tactics. > Of course, the card may have seen print with the new text, I'm not > sure, as I hardly ever use it (and stick to the old cards anyways > - for aesthetic reasons - when possible). In print with the new text in both Anarchs and Camarilla Edition (where it was one of many old cards printed in CE with text reflecting the existing erratas). Though I had to go check my collection to see. :P > Bye, > > Daneel -John Flournoy

On 21 May 2005 17:58:28 -0700, John Flournoy <carn...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Sorry, I was once again under the impression that cards do what is >> printed on them... ;) >> >> Of course, I did not check whether the online card text was altered. >> My printed copies of Elder Intervention do not have the "cannot > play >> both" clause on them, so I was under the impression that only Pack >> Tactics has it (which is enough a prohibition unless it gets played >> first *and* it gets cancelled, which made it seem like a cornercase >> situation hardly needing a fix). > > Right. Your printed copies lack the 'cannot play both' because Elder > Impersonation was printed several years before the existence of the > functionally-identical Pack Tactics. Indeed. >> Of course, the card may have seen print with the new text, I'm not >> sure, as I hardly ever use it (and stick to the old cards anyways >> - for aesthetic reasons - when possible). > > In print with the new text in both Anarchs and Camarilla Edition (where > it was one of many old cards printed in CE with text reflecting the > existing erratas). Though I had to go check my collection to see. :P My mistake then. ;) Thanks for the info! -- Bye, Daneel