Keystone Kine + Red List Ally (LSJ)

1. Obviously, declaring the Keystone Kine action includes specifying which disciplines are being used. Does it also include, when using obf, specifying which ally will be burned? 2. My Rafaele Giovanni bleeds with Keystone Kine at cel+nec+obf. My prey controls a Red Listed Francois 'Warden' Lehr, whom I intend to burn. Prey does not block or change the target of the bleed, which is for 3. The Warden burns. Is he burned "as a D action", for the purpose of Trophy retrieval? 3. Now, same scenario except that my prey Deflects the bleed to my grand-prey. Is the action now undirected, as it targets both my prey and grand-prey? 4. If the answers to (2) and (3) were "yes" and "no", respectively, suppose that in the second scenario my grand-prey takes the 3 bleed. Will the burning of the Warden trigger Trophy retrieval?

Malone wrote: > 1. Obviously, declaring the Keystone Kine action includes specifying > which disciplines are being used. Does it also include, when using > obf, specifying which ally will be burned? No. That waits until the action is successful. > 2. My Rafaele Giovanni bleeds with Keystone Kine at cel+nec+obf. My > prey controls a Red Listed Francois 'Warden' Lehr, whom I intend to > burn. Prey does not block or change the target of the bleed, which is > for 3. The Warden burns. Is he burned "as a D action", for the > purpose of Trophy retrieval? Yes. > 3. Now, same scenario except that my prey Deflects the bleed to my > grand-prey. Is the action now undirected, as it targets both my prey > and grand-prey? No. It is still (D). > 4. If the answers to (2) and (3) were "yes" and "no", respectively, > suppose that in the second scenario my grand-prey takes the 3 bleed. > Will the burning of the Warden trigger Trophy retrieval? Yes.

[ quoted text not captured ] 5. Does the action in the first scenario (prey is bled) cost an additional blood per the Warden's text ("D actions that target Francois cost an additional blood or life")? 6. If yes to (5), then how about in the second scenario (grand-prey takes bleed)?

[ quoted text not captured ] No. The action succeeds first. And cost is paid before it succeeds. This action is a bleed, and it doesn't target Warden. [ quoted text not captured ]

> No. The action succeeds first. And cost is paid before it succeeds. This > action is a bleed, and it doesn't target Warden. > This goes counter to a previous thread where you stated that a card costing four pool and gives the player five pool can be played by a player at four pool without said player being ousted. If cost is indeed paid before success then the player MUST be down to zero pool, and therefore the card never resolves. Sten ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[ quoted text not captured ] The most important reason why it doesn't target Warden is that you don't decide which ally to burn until the bleed resolves. Only target of a bleed is the Methuselah being bled.

[ quoted text not captured ] No. You pay the cost and resolve the effect.

LSJ wrote: > Sten During wrote: >>> No. The action succeeds first. And cost is paid before it succeeds. This >> player at four pool without said player being ousted. If cost is >> indeed paid before success then the player MUST be down to zero pool, >> and therefore the card never resolves. > > No. You pay the cost and resolve the effect. Ok, so cost is paid simultaneously with resolution? There is no distinct order 1) pay cost, 2) resolve effect? [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] An effect whose cost is paid occurs.

[ quoted text not captured ] I suspect they probably happen in order*, but are so tightly bundled that you can't really squeeze anything in between, not even being ousted. (*based on the fact that if, when it comes time to pay a cost, you for some reason can no longer pay, you still pay as much as you can, but the effect doesn't occur.) -- salem (replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)

[ quoted text not captured ] I transfer my last pool to an Anarch Convert, who I choose to use to convert an untitled vampire and gain one pool. Does this all take place without me being ousted in the middle?

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:55:37 -0700 (PDT), Malone wrote: >I transfer my last pool to an Anarch Convert, who I choose to use to >convert an untitled vampire and gain one pool. Does this all take >place without me being ousted in the middle? You are ousted in the middle. Transfers happen "during" the transfer phase. Bringing a minion into play happens at the "end" of the transfer phase. You never get to the "end" of the phase, to trigger the vampire's card text as you are ousted as soon as you transfer the pool to the card. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com Your best online source for information about V:TES. Now also featuring individual card sales and sales of booster and starter box displays.