Dear fellow ghazi ( which is Turkish for ``jyhad fighters创),
I notice several complaints about wallpaper, and since I share them I
wonder if we could not establish some alternate card readings and
rulings. This has been done for the game Shadowfist. There is a set of
alternate card readings called Retrofist. Maybe after jyhad players
have discussed new readings thoroughly and somehow voted on them, then
there could be alternate tournament games using the new readings for
fun.
Even cards which are fairly good but of which players have far too
many, especially with the unconscionable reprints of Sabbat War, even
these cards could have alternate readings. Players would simply deface
their extra Barrens and Elder Libraries with a pen inscribing the new
readings. After all, how many Lucky Blows does a player need? And what
clever, innovative but not powerful card ideas are players
contemplating? I think almost all of would agree that any small group
of players could have come up with a hundred low-powered card ideas
better than the unimaginative twaddle dreamed up for Sabbat War. Not
that there are not several rather good and interesting cards in said
expansion, but after such a long time on the drawing boards, one must
conclude that some people have been paid poorly for not a lot of effort.
Therefore, I hope you all shall start sharing your card ideas, so we
can do something with our junk. I suggest the card ideas should be
commenserate in power to the rarity of the card they are replacing, for
the sake of fairness in the matter of collection. Furthermore, it would
be easier for re-writing the cards and more challenging for the amateur
designers if the new card ideas approximated the present idea of the
card being replaced.
Dean Randall Flemming,
Toronto and Seoul, Korea
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
On Mon, 25 Dec 2000 13:24:51 GMT, Dean Randall Flemming
<deanfl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Dear fellow ghazi ( which is Turkish for ``jyhad fighters创),
I thought it was Korean for "troll", myself.
>I notice several complaints about wallpaper, and since I share them I
>wonder if we could not establish some alternate card readings and
>rulings. This has been done for the game Shadowfist. There is a set of
>alternate card readings called Retrofist. Maybe after jyhad players
>have discussed new readings thoroughly and somehow voted on them, then
>there could be alternate tournament games using the new readings for
>fun.
Sounds good, except for one thing; true democracy sucks, and will
produce some unbelievable crap. An advisory dictatorship is much
better, since one person can maintain both a direction and make
decisions. :)
>Even cards which are fairly good but of which players have far too
>many, especially with the unconscionable reprints of Sabbat War, even
Unfortunately, many reprints were necessary because new players will
have no access to these cards EXCEPT in Sabbat War. SW was forced to
be a standalone expansion, not JUST an expansion, by the long delay
since Sabbat and the lack of Sabbat availability.
Lots more 'conscionable' when you think of the new players, eh?
>these cards could have alternate readings. Players would simply deface
>their extra Barrens and Elder Libraries with a pen inscribing the new
>readings. After all, how many Lucky Blows does a player need? And what
Now that you mention it, I need 20 in my "12 +1 strength vampires,
computer hack/laptop, lucky blow/pulled fangs" deck...
>clever, innovative but not powerful card ideas are players
>contemplating? I think almost all of would agree that any small group
>of players could have come up with a hundred low-powered card ideas
>better than the unimaginative twaddle dreamed up for Sabbat War. Not
This is the bit that leads me to believe that you are nothing more
than a Christmas troll, out from under the bridge for a good laugh. I
do not believe that very many people at all would agree with you that
the new cards for Sabbat War were "unimaginative twaddle".
I would also not agree that any small group of players could come up
with a hundred low-powered card ideas. I would say that most groups
would produce some hideously broken shit to cater to their own pet
ideas and attempt to pass it off as 'low-powered'. Human nature, see.
>that there are not several rather good and interesting cards in said
>expansion, but after such a long time on the drawing boards, one must
>conclude that some people have been paid poorly for not a lot of effort.
One could also conclude that you are just a trolling idiot. I know
which way I'd put my money. You are, of course, welcome to spew your
own card ideas, but it should be interesting to see what you think of
as "low-powered", and what loopholes YOU miss.
>Therefore, I hope you all shall start sharing your card ideas, so we
>can do something with our junk. I suggest the card ideas should be
If you don't like the game, don't play. Bye!
-- Derek
Goon-of-the-Month club member
In article <927hr2$jeq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Dean Randall Flemming <deanfl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Dear fellow ghazi ( which is Turkish for ``jyhad fighters创),
>
> I notice several complaints about wallpaper, and since I share them I
> wonder if we could not establish some alternate card readings and
> rulings.
[snip]
> Therefore, I hope you all shall start sharing your card ideas, so we
> can do something with our junk.
This has been done for many years.
Surf here:
http://lasombra.tripod.com/newcards.htm
There you will find a collection of 25 sets of new cards.
Hope you enjoy them.
Carpe Noctem.
Lasombra
http://lasombra.tripod.comhttp://legbiter.tripod.comhttp://vekn_clans.tripod.com[ quoted text not captured ]
This has to been one of the lamest ideas I have heard. Why not just mark
the cards up as we are playing. hey, I would really like +3 hand damage
right now, oh I'll just cross out my little +1 on the lucky blow and write
in +3. Lame.
"Dean Randall Flemming" <deanfl...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:927hr2$jeq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <927hr2$jeq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Dean Randall Flemming
<deanfl...@my-deja.com> writes
>Players would simply deface
>their extra Barrens and Elder Libraries with a pen inscribing the new
>readings. After all, how many Lucky Blows does a player need?
None of these cards you mention are wallpaper though.
All three are great cards, in the right deck. What makes them wallpaper
is assuming that:
1) They don't have a place in decks (so you don't play them)
2) Putting them in inappropriate decks.
Immortal Grapple would look like wall-paper in a deck designed to go to
range and throw lids. It's just the wrong deck for it.
Lucky Blow is good for decks that want to do a bit more damage, using
fight-back as defence, or which have problems generating extra damage.
The Barrens is highly, highly useful for card cycling, and card cycling
is a very powerful ability when used well. Elder Library is also highly
useful for decks that need to generate relatively large card combos.
The extra cards on hand let you see what you've got coming up.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"What's wrong with wanting more?
If you can fly -- then soar!
With all there is, why settle for just a piece of sky?"
In article <v4se4tsh5i5up58d9...@4ax.com>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
On the topic of trying to move "Wallpaper" cards to a more useable
format, I tend to agree. For the most part, I tend to see cards
dealing with allies as being more in the "Wallpaper" direction more
than any other cards. But it may just be me as I rarely ever see
allies in play no matter where I play (Wien, Portsmouth, Frankfurt or
Ramstein). My personnel feeling on a way is to correct 1 or 2 cards
that might give more reasons toward the increased use of allies and
their respective cards.
One of the cards I see that could possibly help in this area is
Concealed Weapon. Though not in print in any of the Vampire backed
cards, they are still available in old Jyhad backed cards. I was
surprised in not seeing a remake of the card in a "non-discipline"
format, tempered down to exclude Unique equipment items but matching
the older text otherwise. This could be the one card that could give
the allies the extra push to higher useability.
Aside from that I tend to agree with Derek on leaving cards unmarked
and trying to find the correct decks for them to work within (but
without the troll comments).
New card ideas are always welcome for review as even broken ones can
lead to good card ideas in a round about way.
Michael Eichler
Prince of Ramstein
--
Worry comes from the belief you are powerless.
(So get in there and kick some butt!)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <92a74q$auv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Ramsteiner
<ramst...@my-deja.com> writes
>On the topic of trying to move "Wallpaper" cards to a more useable
>format, I tend to agree. For the most part, I tend to see cards
>dealing with allies as being more in the "Wallpaper" direction more
>than any other cards.
IMO, the best way to deal with the fact that the ally cards are somewhat
redundant is to introduce new cards to make allies better. Vagabond
Mystic is one such card. New cards for, say, Necromancy could do that
in Final Nights, or generic cards, or whatever.
That way, the cards are made less corner case by making the cases in
which they can be played more common - since more people will *want* to
play them.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Derek Ray wrote in message ...
>On Mon, 25 Dec 2000 13:24:51 GMT, Dean Randall Flemming
><deanfl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>Dear fellow ghazi ( which is Turkish for ``jyhad fighters创),>
>I thought it was Korean for "troll", myself.
Somebody got some coal in his stocking this year...
>>>I notice several complaints about wallpaper, and since I share them I
>>wonder if we could not establish some alternate card readings and
>>rulings. This has been done for the game Shadowfist. There is a set of
>>alternate card readings called Retrofist. Maybe after jyhad players
>>have discussed new readings thoroughly and somehow voted on them, then
>>there could be alternate tournament games using the new readings for
>>fun.>
>Sounds good, except for one thing; true democracy sucks, and will
>produce some unbelievable crap. An advisory dictatorship is much
>better, since one person can maintain both a direction and make
>decisions. :)
>
Don't you mean benevolent facism? Or an intelligentsia cabal? Maybe an
absolute theocracy is more to your liking.
>>Even cards which are fairly good but of which players have far too
>>many, especially with the unconscionable reprints of Sabbat War, even>
>Unfortunately, many reprints were necessary because new players will
>have no access to these cards EXCEPT in Sabbat War. SW was forced to
>be a standalone expansion, not JUST an expansion, by the long delay
>since Sabbat and the lack of Sabbat availability.
>
>Lots more 'conscionable' when you think of the new players, eh?
>
Some cards in Sabbat War were not worth reprinting. Like Minion Tap.
Useless.
>>these cards could have alternate readings. Players would simply deface
>>their extra Barrens and Elder Libraries with a pen inscribing the new
>>readings. After all, how many Lucky Blows does a player need? And what>
>Now that you mention it, I need 20 in my "12 +1 strength vampires,
>computer hack/laptop, lucky blow/pulled fangs" deck...
>
I'm surprised you didn't mention your 18 Direct Interventions.
>>clever, innovative but not powerful card ideas are players
>>contemplating? I think almost all of would agree that any small group
>>of players could have come up with a hundred low-powered card ideas
>>better than the unimaginative twaddle dreamed up for Sabbat War. Not>
>This is the bit that leads me to believe that you are nothing more
>than a Christmas troll, out from under the bridge for a good laugh. I
>do not believe that very many people at all would agree with you that
>the new cards for Sabbat War were "unimaginative twaddle".
Actually, yeah. The new cards did require imagination. "Twaddle" is best
reserved for describing the motion of the "twad" or, more commonly known as
"shitwad". As it "bungee jumps" out of the rectum.
>
>I would also not agree that any small group of players could come up
>with a hundred low-powered card ideas. I would say that most groups
>would produce some hideously broken shit to cater to their own pet
>ideas and attempt to pass it off as 'low-powered'. Human nature, see.
>
Now how can you say my "7th Tradition" is broken? Sure, it combines all 6
tradition cards into one reaction card that makes the opposing Methuselah
burn 2 pool while you untap a prince or justicar, create a progeny who
blocks at +2 intercept, add 3 blood to a younger uncontrolled vampire, fill
the prince/justicar to capacity, and burn anyone who committed diablerie
since your last turn? It's a damn good fix for Werewolf Pack. I have the
stickers and everything.
>>that there are not several rather good and interesting cards in said
>>expansion, but after such a long time on the drawing boards, one must
>>conclude that some people have been paid poorly for not a lot of effort.>
>One could also conclude that you are just a trolling idiot. I know
>which way I'd put my money. You are, of course, welcome to spew your
>own card ideas, but it should be interesting to see what you think of
>as "low-powered", and what loopholes YOU miss.
>
Geez. I hope you didn't add any wandering Christmas Carolers to your
collection of bodies under the basement.
>>Therefore, I hope you all shall start sharing your card ideas, so we
>>can do something with our junk. I suggest the card ideas should be>
>If you don't like the game, don't play. Bye!
But I do, I do.
>
>-- Derek
>
>Goon-of-the-Month club member
Derek, Derek. Was the "Korean" jibe really necessary? How do you know you're
not really Korean?
Mike Ooi
The Uber-Racist-Squirrel Lover
On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:06:29 GMT, "Mike Ooi" <sh...@texas.net> wrote:
>Some cards in Sabbat War were not worth reprinting. Like Minion Tap.
>Useless.
I have to agree here. All those vampires need their blood. How else
are they going to play all the cool cards like Body of Sun, Legacy of
Power, and Summon the Abyss?
>>>these cards could have alternate readings. Players would simply deface
>>>their extra Barrens and Elder Libraries with a pen inscribing the new
>>>readings. After all, how many Lucky Blows does a player need? And what>>
>>Now that you mention it, I need 20 in my "12 +1 strength vampires,
>>computer hack/laptop, lucky blow/pulled fangs" deck...>
>I'm surprised you didn't mention your 18 Direct Interventions.
Well, I don't like to brag. And that's the core of my new deck's
defense that I wanted to keep s3kr3t.. I figure 10 Direct
Interventions should do the trick; nothing will be able to happen that
I don't permit! MUAHAHAHA.
>>I would also not agree that any small group of players could come up
>>with a hundred low-powered card ideas. I would say that most groups
>>would produce some hideously broken shit to cater to their own pet
>>ideas and attempt to pass it off as 'low-powered'. Human nature, see.>
>Now how can you say my "7th Tradition" is broken? Sure, it combines all 6
>tradition cards into one reaction card that makes the opposing Methuselah
>burn 2 pool while you untap a prince or justicar, create a progeny who
>blocks at +2 intercept, add 3 blood to a younger uncontrolled vampire, fill
>the prince/justicar to capacity, and burn anyone who committed diablerie
>since your last turn? It's a damn good fix for Werewolf Pack. I have the
>stickers and everything.
Well, it's a BIT overpowered, but I think if you just add the text
"Only usable by an ally who is not affected by damage from melee
weapons" to it, though, it'll be fine. And where's the +3 fun clause?
You KNOW all the new cards are supposed to be +3 fun!
>Geez. I hope you didn't add any wandering Christmas Carolers to your
>collection of bodies under the basement.
Only the two who came inside the fence. Clever little buggers shorted
out the electric wires so they could open the gate. Mister Handgun
sure set THEM straight, let me tell you!
>Derek, Derek. Was the "Korean" jibe really necessary? How do you know you're
>not really Korean?
Well, he SAID "Toronto and Seoul, Korea". So I was giving him the
benefit of the doubt. I mean, I could have called him CANADIAN...
how's THAT for an insult? =)
Besides, my teammate swears I'm half Asian, so maybe I *am* Korean.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Dear fellow jyhad players,
I admit that my submission was not a perfected dissertation able to
withstand a withering examination, however I do feel that many of its
points were deliberately misunderstood.
By wallpaper I not include cards which one would never use, but
those of which most players have many more than they could possibly use.
Twenty Lucky Blows one might use, but thirty? Ten barrens, but twenty?
I have since remedied my deficient attention to the websites
devoted to jyhad, and I have noted the particularly good card ideas on
the jyhad on line site. Many of them are low-powered and well-balanced.
So why are people adverse to making an alternate play environment where
these or similar ideas are used?
Looking at the cards on that particular site I find many superior
to the new cards in Sabbat War. I think Sabbat War, for one thing, does
not have many new political cards.
Sincerelely,
Dean Randall Flemming,
Toronto and Seoul
On the other hand many card ideas in some other sites are clearly
fantasies by power-gamers. These I think most would vote to leave where
they belong.
In article <927hr2$jeq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Dean Randall Flemming <deanfl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:09:46 GMT, Dean Randall Flemming
<deanfl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I have since remedied my deficient attention to the websites
>devoted to jyhad, and I have noted the particularly good card ideas on
>the jyhad on line site. Many of them are low-powered and well-balanced.
>So why are people adverse to making an alternate play environment where
>these or similar ideas are used?
Perhaps because nobody shares your belief that Sabbat War's cards are
somehow "inferior". I doubt most of us are averse to using some of
the card ideas; I've played with people who WERE using some of the
card ideas just to find out what they were like. But simply put, the
original game is sufficiently complex and sufficiently entertaining
that none of us see a need to haul out our Lucky Blows and start
hand-creating a totally different play environment.
Your posts read almost like "viva la revolution!", if you want the
truth. You didn't like the cards in Sabbat War. Congrats on being
one of the few people, if not the ONLY person, who didn't. So now you
want to go off and create your own "sideline" variant with your own
cards, figuring you can somehow do "better" than White Wolf, because
you weren't happy? Cry me a river.
> Looking at the cards on that particular site I find many superior
>to the new cards in Sabbat War. I think Sabbat War, for one thing, does
>not have many new political cards.
That's because the Sabbat are not inherently political. They tend to
beat hell out of each other to solve disputes. The Lasombra are
supposed to be the main political force in the Sabbat, and their
cards/disciplines reflect the Sabbat style as well; Dominate,
Political Struggle, Power Structure... no raw "vote gainers" like
Presence.
Sorry you didn't like Sabbat War. But I think you may just have been
hoping for your own personal expansion; I'd advise being happy that we
got one at ALL.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <92fai9$4j8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Dean Randall Flemming
<deanfl...@my-deja.com> writes
> By wallpaper I not include cards which one would never use, but
>those of which most players have many more than they could possibly use.
>Twenty Lucky Blows one might use, but thirty?
So if I buy more cards, do I get to make them even more useful? People
who have 20 Lucky Blows can upgrade them to +2 damage, and with 40 they
get +3 damage?
[ quoted text not captured ]
Sorry to bother you with this matter again, but could we all find a way to
use those misprinted cards from ancient hearts ? i mean the non discipline
action cards who were written with a superior version like Purity of the
beast and Summon the Serpent (which is not worth playing at "inferior").
Maybe we can find a way to use them ? say, superior version is accessible to
Titled vampires, or capacity higher than 6 ? Or even replace text with
superior version only.
Wouldn't that be cool this way ?
btw, how did the design team make such a mistake ?
reyda
=)
(please don't troll me ! i don't want to bother anyone, merely suggesting
things.)
You know, I kind of like the idea of designing new cards. If done by
consensus and with a genuine attempt to keep the new cards fair, this could
be a lot of fun. I have looked at the custom cards on some sites and there
are some genuinely good ideas although I think some are way too powerful.
The thing that scares me about this exercise is just that White Wolf will
apparently never use any of the cards we invent for copyright purposes. Is
there any way around this? Hell, anything I design can be used WITH my
permission and I'll sign whatever release forms they require! I'd be
thrilled just to see one of my cards actually get printed.
LSJ, would you mind letting us in on the actual policy on this? I assume you
would be involved with the creation of new cards at some level. How is this
done?
In any case, I will open the bidding with the following ideas. Please
analyze them to death if you like until we either lose interest or create
potentially cool cards.
1) I had an idea for a card to help out the Followers of Set. Basically the
idea is to manipulate opposing vampire's votes for the use of the FoS. My
original name for the card was 'Abuse of Power' and it basically involved
adding a bleed modifier based on the number of votes of a vampire of the
FoS' prey. This could alternatively be used as an intercept bonus since
this is something the Setites sorely lack. So the text would read something
like this: 'Reaction: this reacting Setite gains an intercept bonus
equivalent to the number of votes of a ready vampire controlled by the
reacting methuselah's prey'. Thematically, this would represent the Setites
having their hands in every pie and using the influence of others for their
own ends.
2) Ghouls! I know some of the cards already either have the word in their
card text like Ghoul Retainer or most likely ARE meant to be ghouls such as
Tasha Morgan or Mr. Winthrop... but I was thinking it would be interesting
to add a bunch of allies that have a specific set of traits. The main
advantage of any ghoul in the World of Darkness is that they basically
operate during the day. If a ghoul takes an action during the day, it should
be VERY hard for a vampire to block them without getting a bad case of
sunburn. Think about allies that have the equivalent of 'Day Operation' (or
something along those lines) but have limitations such as expensive costs
and lack of inherent bleeding ability maybe. This would be a very powerful
ally that could be used either to get equipment (later to transfer to those
who really need it) or perhaps bleed with another card such as Computer
Hacking. Actions such as Bum's Rush and Arson would become a lot more
powerful with these minions so perhaps limiting the ghouls to taking only
non-directed actions as well. I like the idea but I can see this becoming so
easily broken as to ruin the intention. This would hopefully make allies in
general more useful and all those useless anti-ally cards would become more
common. I know this idea is probably crap but it seems like fun to me.
Ok, start ripping them apart now... ready? Go!
Cheers,
WES
Dear fellow Jyhad players,
I am sorry that I did not emphasize sufficiently that I wished for
new card ideas to be balanced in such a way that a new common would be
written for an old common, a new uncommon for an old uncommon, et
cetera. I have seen new card ideas on the many sites out there which are
sufficiently interesting and sufficiently limited so as to be neither
needless nor unbalancing. Especially cards for neglected disciplines or
for entirely new game concepts need not be powerful to be useful or
interesting.
I enjoyed many of the new cards for Sabbat War. The storage cards
are a new idea. However, I did not see the need for some of the new
small vampires with the usual discipline mix. As for reprints! Why not
reprint Vampire: The Eternal Struggle? New players who are interested in
beginning Jyhad could buy the basic set. The pre-built decks could still
be sold with some modification. If I were a new player, why would I
prefer to spend all my money on Sabbat War, which does not have most of
the rares or clans from the first set, when I could instead buy some of
each and spend the same amount of money on a more interesting small or
large collection?
Sincerely,
Dean Randall Flemming
Toronto and Seoul
In article <s1rv2EPa...@obeah.demon.co.uk>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 11:37:20 -0500, Derek Ray wrote:
>Perhaps because nobody shares your belief that Sabbat War's>cards are somehow "inferior". You didn't like the cards in Sabbat War.>Congrats on being one of the few people, if not the ONLY person,
>who didn't.
Speak for yourself. I don't like the Sabbat War cards for various
reasons. The new cards which were designed to improve aspects of the
metagame - the weapon helpers and weenie hosers - seem inadequate.
There's no shortage of stock here and I don't have a set but I'm not
buying. I'm toying with the idea of buying more VTES instead. Last
night, David Hammond said that he has about 13,000 cards. I just have
about 4,000 and, with NCL, the sky's the limit. But the SW rulebook
implies that the Camarilla cards will be reprinted with a new template
and so maybe I should hold off until the cards are revised again.
Andrew
In message <92gl4r$1a9a$1...@news6.isdnet.net>, Reyda <re...@noos.fr>
writes
>Summon the Serpent (which is not worth playing at "inferior").
Not true, necessarily.
Playing with things like Kindred Intelligence is often good. In the
right deck, Summon the Serpent will work just fine. (It'll work even
better with more Setites in Final Nights.)
Also pay attention to the fact that Legacy of Pander was *never*
errata-ed prior to Sabbat War, but was re-printed in Sabbat War with the
originally intended card text. Assuming that similar things are found
in the AH/DS cards *and* the cards are chosen to be reprinted in
starters, such changes could be made in the same way. Note, however,
that that's entirely hypothetical.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote:
> The thing that scares me about this exercise is just that White Wolf
> will apparently never use any of the cards we invent for copyright
> purposes. Is there any way around this? Hell, anything I design can
> be used WITH my permission and I'll sign whatever release forms they
> require! I'd be thrilled just to see one of my cards actually get
> printed.
>
> LSJ, would you mind letting us in on the actual policy on this? I
> assume you would be involved with the creation of new cards at some
> level. How is this done?
White Wolf isn't soliciting new card ideas at the current time, but
has also not taken the position that any fan-made card(s) posted in
a public forum (newsgroup, web page, etc.) is forever off limits,
either. That was (and probably is) the position of Wizards of the
Coast.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/[ quoted text not captured ]
In message
<568955D2D0A55DF8.59B6C271...@lp.airnews.net>,
Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes
>The new cards which were designed to improve aspects of the
>metagame - the weapon helpers and weenie hosers - seem inadequate.
Why? The cards are not designed to be hosers but hindrances. If you
can hose a deck with a couple of cards, the cards stand a strong chance
of being unbalanced.
As I've pointed out before, the idea is not to hose another deck, but to
survive long enough to get ousts. You don't need enough defence in a
deck to completely hose all other decks. Mind-sets like that will get
you nowhere.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <92h7no$m79$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Dean Randall Flemming <deanfl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Dear fellow Jyhad players,
>
Dear Dean,
Thanks for the polite responce. It makes a refreshing change.
Your points are totally valid and in a perfect world would have come to
fruition. The reality is that dollars are a stronger market force than
player utopia.
> I am sorry that I did not emphasize sufficiently that I wished
for
> new card ideas to be balanced in such a way that a new common would be
> written for an old common, a new uncommon for an old uncommon, et
> cetera. I have seen new card ideas on the many sites out there which
are
> sufficiently interesting and sufficiently limited so as to be neither
> needless nor unbalancing. Especially cards for neglected disciplines
> or for entirely new game concepts need not be powerful to be useful or
> interesting.
>
Granted. These cards and more will probably be seen in Final Nights.
However, WW could not have printed Final Nights straight 'off the bat'
as it were. There had to be some kind of base set freely available from
which to build on. That gives two alternatives: V:TES basic, or Sabbat.
There are solid reasons for choosing Sabbat....
> I enjoyed many of the new cards for Sabbat War. The storage cards
> are a new idea. However, I did not see the need for some of the new
> small vampires with the usual discipline mix. As for reprints! Why not
> reprint Vampire: The Eternal Struggle?
There are a few reasons for (re)printing SW over V:TES basic. WW did not
know the depth of the V:TES market when the rights to the game reverted
to them. What they did know was that there was player demand for more
Sabbat cards as both print runs from WotC had sold out some time
previous, whereas Jyhad & V:TES had not. If they (re)printed Sabbat it
would sell to existing players, with the right marketing it would sell
to new players and with the inclusion of some new cards it would sell to
the die-hard player base too.
A reprint of V:TES would not automatically do that. Basic V:TES has been
printed in it's two forms in high volume (compared to Sabbat) and in
some locales the market is saturated with V:TES or more usually Jyhad.
Even with new cards this would result in a slow pick up from
distributors from WW. Distributors probably had Jyhad and V:TES in their
warehouses for a reallllly long time when WotC first printed them. Even
now you can pick up Jyhad packs in bargain bins in some parts of the
world. If a V:TES reprint was totally the right thing to do in ajn ideal
world to get newbies playing, if distributors and shops don't buy it-
there's no point. It's mercenary and business-like, but required in
order for the game to survive in the long term.
A sabbat reprint (that sold out quickly, lets not forget) builds up the
player base and satisfies the older players as far as it can. It also
helps sell through any malingering Jyhad/V:TES packs that shops have
lying around, maybe even creating a little demand in the market place
for the older basic sets and expansions (the stock of which [DS & AH]
WotC turned over to WW, albeit in limited quantities).
Now when WW reprint the basic set in late 2001/2002 (assuming it is
considered viable) the distributors and retailers will be more willing
to place orders for it. BTW if you are thinking 'damn- i havn't seen any
packs of Jyhad/V:TES is a long while round here, what's this limey fool
talking about? You have to consider that this is the case in (some parts
of) Northern America. And that's all that matters. That's where most of
the print run will end up.
Small vampires were really needed too, incidently. The tournament scene
was dominated by Camarilla clans because they had more depth in the
number of vampires to choose from. SW goes some way to redressing the
balance of power. Vampires are usually the best cards from any set,
simply because they increase your minion card options and make
skill-based decks more consistant.
> New players who are interested in beginning Jyhad could buy the basic
> set. The pre-built decks could still be sold with some modification. >
If I were a new player, why would I prefer to spend all my money on >
Sabbat War, which does not have most of the rares or clans from the >
first set, when I could instead buy some of
> each and spend the same amount of money on a more interesting small or
> large collection?
>
They will get that chance and when they do they will be safe in the
knowledge that WW has done it's homework and the likelihood that there
will be further cards to follow is stronger than it would be if SW had
not been printed.
WW seem to have made the correct decisions so far for the long-term fate
of the game. Hopefully sales of Final Nights will be strong enough to
warrant a basic set reprint. They should be. Pre-con decks are the way
forward for new players. SW had them and they were good. FN is set to
have them and if V:TES basic set has them too, then things can only be
good for WW and all concerned. More people are playing now as a result
of the handling of SW by WW. Generally this is a good thing, obviously
the only setback being Andrew Davidson's interest in the game. *shrug*
You take the rough with the smooth.
> Sincerely,
> Dean Randall Flemming
> Toronto and Seoul
>
matt.
-wow that was a bit wordy.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Dear fellow Jyhad palyers,
I realize that this reply is a little late.
[ quoted text not captured ]
I am not sure I understand this explanation. If there are indeed so
many boxes of Jyhad and Vampire:The Eternal Struggle out there on the
shelves and in the warehouses, then why would there be any need to
reprint cards from them? Granted that the publishing company makes no
new profits from these old cards, but I think that more sales of Sabbat
War could have been generated from old players who would have been
happy to buy more boosters or boxes. Presumably distributors and
retailers would be much happier to get rid of all the old stuff.
This is all moot, since the publication has taken place.
Which returns me to my original proposal that Jyhad players formally
adopt new cards for play. Other gaming communities do this quite
readily: miniaturists, roleplayers and wargamers not infrequently adopt
house rules which become formalized for convention and tournament play.
> > New players who are interested in beginning Jyhad could buy the
basic
> > set. The pre-built decks could still be sold with some
modification. >
> If I were a new player, why would I prefer to spend all my money on
>
> Sabbat War, which does not have most of the rares or clans from the >
> first set, when I could instead buy some of
> > each and spend the same amount of money on a more interesting small
or
> > large collection?
> >
> They will get that chance and when they do they will be safe in the
> knowledge that WW has done it's homework and the likelihood that there
> will be further cards to follow is stronger than it would be if SW had
> not been printed.
>
I am not suggesting Sabbat War should not have been printed! Merely
that it should have been a smaller collection: all the new cards, some
more low-powered new cards and minus all the reprints of crappy cards.
A more judicious selection, in other words.
But again, I am saying that we do not have to rely on White Wolf
for all our fun.
Sincerely,
Dean Randall Flemming
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Sun, 14 Jan 2001 01:23:07 GMT, Dean Randall Flemming
<deanfl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I am not sure I understand this explanation. If there are indeed so
>many boxes of Jyhad and Vampire:The Eternal Struggle out there on the
No. Only boxes of Jyhad, which has a different cardback. V:TES, Dark
Sovereigns, Ancient Hearts, Sabbat, and now Sabbat War all have a
matching cardback... part of the reason why Jyhad is available for
such low prices, not to mention that Jyhad was overprinted first time
'round.
V:TES is out there, but not lots of it, and from what I can tell it's
starting to dry up; it's getting more expensive as it goes.
NEITHER of them are on store shelves, however.
>shelves and in the warehouses, then why would there be any need to
>reprint cards from them? Granted that the publishing company makes no
Because dealers/retailers will not buy and stock "old" product,
correctly realizing that it will not sell. They will, however, stock
"new" product that happens to contain some reprints; as was the case
with Sabbat War, which SOLD OUT promptly.
>new profits from these old cards, but I think that more sales of Sabbat
>War could have been generated from old players who would have been
>happy to buy more boosters or boxes. Presumably distributors and
>retailers would be much happier to get rid of all the old stuff.
Sabbat War sold out almost IMMEDIATELY. Please explain how to
generate more than 100% sales?
As far as "presumably", you presume incorrectly. Distributors *are*
happy to get rid of the old stuff, which is why you can buy from
Potomac, etc. at bargain prices.
Retailers have long since gotten rid of their old stuff, however, and
that does our game NO good at all to have it not on store shelves and
easily available to the average gamer. We NEED new players to
survive; to get those, we HAVE to have product easily available!
Sabbat War attracted new players, and it revitalized interest for old
players. Hence retailers stocked it (briefly, and then stock ran out
due to a sellout).
Retailers are not, however, about to re-stock old stuff that they had
trouble getting rid of in the first place. Don't expect to see boxes
of Jyhad on your store shelves anytime soon.
> This is all moot, since the publication has taken place.
Good thing, too, since the assumptions you make in your message are
butt-fucking wrong, to put it as politely as i can.
> Which returns me to my original proposal that Jyhad players formally
>adopt new cards for play. Other gaming communities do this quite
There is no relation whatsoever between your original proposal and
what you just babbled about above; why not just say "Hey, everyone
ignored me the first time, let me shout this out again in hopes that
someone is listening."
>readily: miniaturists, roleplayers and wargamers not infrequently adopt
>house rules which become formalized for convention and tournament play.
"If Sally jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?"
We did, in fact, adopt "house rules" once; the Golden Tenets, to be
specific. Those are now part of the VEKN tournament rules. Those
rules were also VERY necessary. Your suggestions fall far, far, far,
FAR short of necessary.
Look, Bosco. Just because you were all pissy about Sabbat War not
being everything you expected is not a good reason for everyone to go
drawing on their old cards. As you can see from a different thread,
Sabbat War wasn't 100% perfect for everyone ELSE, either, but we're
all DELIGHTED to have a product that retailers will actually stock.
Please take your idea, which was shitcanned the FIRST time you brought
it up, and deposit it in the proper receptacle ("the circular file"),
where it belongs. Give a hoot--don't pollute!
(70s flashback moment. sorry.)
> I am not suggesting Sabbat War should not have been printed! Merely
>that it should have been a smaller collection: all the new cards, some
>more low-powered new cards and minus all the reprints of crappy cards.
>A more judicious selection, in other words.
Sure, some cards probably shouldn't have been reprinted (Twisting the
Knife? man...), but there were plenty that SHOULD have been. Why are
you worried about "low-powered"? What exactly was so wrong with the
new cards in Sabbat War? SPECIFICALLY, by the way, not vague bullshit
about "oh, they were overpowered" or the like.
> But again, I am saying that we do not have to rely on White Wolf
>for all our fun.
And I am saying... well, I can't post what I'm *really* saying since
it'll get me labelled a thug and a flamer and all kinds of other nice
things that I probably deserve. Suffice it to say that it was two
words and seven letters. Further hints available for $5.00 each.
What I'm saying AFTER the radio edit is that you should perhaps quit
bitching because things didn't go the way you wanted, DEAL with it,
move on with your life, and play the game instead of organizing, well,
a jihad to draw on our old cards. You might find that it's actually
fun anyway; all the rest of us sure seem to.
Damnans doesn't create his cards because he thinks WW sucks; he does
it, as far as I can tell, just because he feels like creating new
cards. More power to him. If a group somewhere wants to use his
cards, that's great. But he doesn't run around saying his should be
the only way.
-- Derek
Goon-of-the-Month club member
"In a MAN's game, you tap things that block." -- F. Scott, 2001
Dear fellow Jyhad players,
I am grateful for the information you have given me about the
marketing and distribution aspects of this game. It does make some
sense out of the reprinting of many already available cards.
Sincerely,
Dean Randall Flemming ( Seoul and Toronto)
>. Only boxes of Jyhad, which has a different cardback [ are available
in large quantities]. V:TES, Dark
> Sovereigns, Ancient Hearts, Sabbat, and now Sabbat War all have a
> matching cardback... part of the reason why Jyhad is available for
> such low prices, not to mention that Jyhad was overprinted first time
> 'round.
>
> V:TES is out there, but not lots of it, and from what I can tell it's
> starting to dry up; it's getting more expensive as it goes.
>
> NEITHER of them are on store shelves, however.
>> Because dealers/retailers will not buy and stock "old" product,
> correctly realizing that it will not sell. They will, however, stock
> "new" product that happens to contain some reprints; as was the case
> with Sabbat War, which SOLD OUT promptly.
>> Retailers have long since gotten rid of their old stuff, however, and
> that does our game NO good at all to have it not on store shelves and> easily available to the average gamer. Retailers are not, however,
about to re-stock old stuff that they had
> trouble getting rid of in the first place. Don't expect to see boxes
> of Jyhad on your store shelves anytime soon.
>> Sure, some cards probably shouldn't have been reprinted (Twisting the
> Knife? man...)[ quoted text not captured ]
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:j6m26tk6sf95tuiqj...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2001 01:23:07 GMT, Dean Randall Flemming
> <deanfl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > I am not sure I understand this explanation. If there are indeed so
> >many boxes of Jyhad and Vampire:The Eternal Struggle out there on the
>
> No. Only boxes of Jyhad, which has a different cardback. V:TES, Dark
> Sovereigns, Ancient Hearts, Sabbat, and now Sabbat War all have a
> matching cardback...
Actually, this is technically untrue.
JYHAD card backs... well, we know how they are different.
V:TES card backs began the "V:TES" naming convention.
DARK SOVEREIGNS was the same as V:TES.
ANCIENT HEARTS had the (R) symbol instead of the TM after the
"Deckmaster"
SABBAT & SABBAT WAR are the same as V:TES.
I have also encountered "light" and "dark" printed versions of Jyhad,
V:TES, Dark Sovereigns, and Ancient Hearts cards.
I'm sure there are other variants people could talk about
Kevin J. Mergen, Prince of Madison, WI
(remove NOSPAM for direct reply)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier