Hugo, who is equipped with the Veneficorum Artum Sanguis, has
attempted a bleed, and was blocked by Lucian. The two are in combat,
range is close, Lucian has played Shadow Feint to gain first strike.
Hugo plays blood fury as his strike, and Lucian uses his ability to
take the Veneficorum from Hugo. Does Hugo pay the one blood for the
blood fury?
Mark wrote:
|| Hugo, who is equipped with the Veneficorum Artum Sanguis, has
|| attempted a bleed, and was blocked by Lucian. The two are in
|| combat, range is close, Lucian has played Shadow Feint to gain
|| first strike. Hugo plays blood fury as his strike, and Lucian uses
|| his ability to take the Veneficorum from Hugo. Does Hugo pay the
|| one blood for the blood fury?
yes, he pays the blood and strikes with blood fury as normal since it's the
strike he declared.
"reyda" <true_reyda@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f11f386$0$9852$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net...
> Mark wrote:
> || Hugo, who is equipped with the Veneficorum Artum Sanguis, has
> || attempted a bleed, and was blocked by Lucian. The two are in
> || combat, range is close, Lucian has played Shadow Feint to gain
> || first strike. Hugo plays blood fury as his strike, and Lucian uses
> || his ability to take the Veneficorum from Hugo. Does Hugo pay the
> || one blood for the blood fury?
>
> yes, he pays the blood and strikes with blood fury as normal since it's
the
> strike he declared.
Hmm... Actually, Reyda, I would guess that the Blood Fury would fizzle.
Lucien took away Hugo's ability to play Thaumaturgy cards with FIRST STRIKE.
That strike is completely resolved before Hugo's BF strike begins. Even
though the cards were played during the Choose Strike phase (and thus,
essentially simultaneously), Anarchs Rule Book 6.4.5 Strike Effects: First
Strike says:
... If the opposing minion was striking with a weapon that is stolen or
destroyed
with first strike, then the opposing minion simply loses his strike
altogether...
Similarly, Hugo is striking using a piece of equipment, and would thus loose
his strike completely.
As for paying for the strike, he doesn't. LSJ (2002-05-06 10:50:12 PST) said
"... the cost (of an action) is paid at the same time the effects are
applied...". The way that I see things (and the way that my play group has
always handled it) is that Strikes are like Actions, and strike modifying
cards are like Action Modifiers, in so far as paying for them goes. That is,
you pay for a strike when it resolves, and you pay for the strike modifier
(eg. Wolf Claws) when you play it (i.e. immediately).
Hope that seems consistent, and correct to everyone.
Pahoehoe!
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 02:05:11 +1000, Glen Robinson wrote:
>
> "reyda" <true_reyda@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3f11f386$0$9852$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net...>> Mark wrote:
>>|| Hugo, who is equipped with the Veneficorum Artum Sanguis, has
>>|| attempted a bleed, and was blocked by Lucian. The two are in
>>|| combat, range is close, Lucian has played Shadow Feint to gain
>>|| first strike. Hugo plays blood fury as his strike, and Lucian uses
>>|| his ability to take the Veneficorum from Hugo. Does Hugo pay the
>>|| one blood for the blood fury?
>>
>> yes, he pays the blood and strikes with blood fury as normal since it's> the>> strike he declared.>
> Hmm... Actually, Reyda, I would guess that the Blood Fury would fizzle.
> Lucien took away Hugo's ability to play Thaumaturgy cards with FIRST STRIKE.
> That strike is completely resolved before Hugo's BF strike begins. Even
> though the cards were played during the Choose Strike phase (and thus,
> essentially simultaneously), Anarchs Rule Book 6.4.5 Strike Effects: First
> Strike says:
>
> ... If the opposing minion was striking with a weapon that is stolen or
> destroyed
> with first strike, then the opposing minion simply loses his strike
> altogether...
>
> Similarly, Hugo is striking using a piece of equipment, and would thus loose
> his strike completely.
I agree
> As for paying for the strike, he doesn't. LSJ (2002-05-06 10:50:12 PST) said
> "... the cost (of an action) is paid at the same time the effects are
> applied...". The way that I see things (and the way that my play group has
> always handled it) is that Strikes are like Actions, and strike modifying
> cards are like Action Modifiers, in so far as paying for them goes. That is,
> you pay for a strike when it resolves, and you pay for the strike modifier
> (eg. Wolf Claws) when you play it (i.e. immediately).
I don't think you are right about paying for it. Strikes are not actions
and I'm fairly sure you pay for them when you declare them even if they
later fizzle.
LSJ will be back on Wednesday to put a "Correct" in the right place (at
least we hope so ;-)
Glen Robinson wrote:
|| "reyda" <true_reyda@hotmail.com> wrote in message
|| news:3f11f386$0$9852$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net...
||| Mark wrote:
||||| Hugo, who is equipped with the Veneficorum Artum Sanguis, has
||||| attempted a bleed, and was blocked by Lucian. The two are in
||||| combat, range is close, Lucian has played Shadow Feint to gain
||||| first strike. Hugo plays blood fury as his strike, and Lucian
||||| uses his ability to take the Veneficorum from Hugo. Does Hugo
||||| pay the one blood for the blood fury?
|||
||| yes, he pays the blood and strikes with blood fury as normal
||| since it's the strike he declared.
||
|| Hmm... Actually, Reyda, I would guess that the Blood Fury would
|| fizzle. Lucien took away Hugo's ability to play Thaumaturgy cards
|| with FIRST STRIKE. That strike is completely resolved before
|| Hugo's BF strike begins.
Nop. At the moment the strike was declared, the vampire had Thaumaturgy. So
the strike is still valid.
analogy : during a round of combat, i play superior mettle at superior (
;) ) and the opposing vampire presses and play superior withering. Alhtough
i cannot play card that require discipline, i can still burn blood to
prevent damage incoming from the opposing vampire.
You only have to meet the requirements for a combat card when the cars is
played.
>|| Hmm... Actually, Reyda, I would guess that the Blood Fury would
>|| fizzle. Lucien took away Hugo's ability to play Thaumaturgy cards
>|| with FIRST STRIKE. That strike is completely resolved before
>|| Hugo's BF strike begins.
>
> Nop. At the moment the strike was declared, the vampire had Thaumaturgy. So
> the strike is still valid.
>
> analogy : during a round of combat, i play superior mettle at superior (
> ;) ) and the opposing vampire presses and play superior withering. Alhtough
> i cannot play card that require discipline, i can still burn blood to
> prevent damage incoming from the opposing vampire.
>
> You only have to meet the requirements for a combat card when the cars is
> played.
Come on. You can do better than that.
Consider Improvised Tactics. You play at the beginning of the combat and can
use the pot Strike:2R dmg throughout the combat even if you lose your
potence. Furthermore it's still a potence strike so any increased strength
cards you played will affect it.
We have had a ruling on this specifically from LSJ quite recently.
I'm still not quite convinced...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 02:05:11 +1000, "Glen Robinson"
<glen_robinson@optusnet.com.au> scrawled:
>
>"reyda" <true_reyda@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3f11f386$0$9852$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net...>> Mark wrote:
>> || Hugo, who is equipped with the Veneficorum Artum Sanguis, has
>> || attempted a bleed, and was blocked by Lucian. The two are in
>> || combat, range is close, Lucian has played Shadow Feint to gain
>> || first strike. Hugo plays blood fury as his strike, and Lucian uses
>> || his ability to take the Veneficorum from Hugo. Does Hugo pay the
>> || one blood for the blood fury?
>>
>> yes, he pays the blood and strikes with blood fury as normal since it's>the>> strike he declared.>
>Hmm... Actually, Reyda, I would guess that the Blood Fury would fizzle.
>Lucien took away Hugo's ability to play Thaumaturgy cards with FIRST STRIKE.
>That strike is completely resolved before Hugo's BF strike begins. Even
>though the cards were played during the Choose Strike phase (and thus,
>essentially simultaneously), Anarchs Rule Book 6.4.5 Strike Effects: First
>Strike says:
>
> ... If the opposing minion was striking with a weapon that is stolen or
>destroyed
> with first strike, then the opposing minion simply loses his strike
>altogether...
>
>Similarly, Hugo is striking using a piece of equipment, and would thus loose
>his strike completely.
his strike is not the equipment. the equipment lets him play the card,
which he already has. using the strike once the card is played has
nothing to do with having the equipment.
reference:
****
From: LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com)
Subject: Re: Why Anarch Questions
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Date: 2003-06-11 08:29:40 PST
reyda wrote:
> LSJ wrote:
> :: Timlagor wrote:
> :::: Improvised Tactics
> :::: pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R
> :::: damage each strike. pot - would that be a strike requiring
> :::: potence (for increased strength)?
> ::
> :: Yes, just as Ablative Skin is "prevention requiring Fortitude" for
> :: effects that produce damage that cannot be prevented by fortitude.
>
> this is something i fail to understand. Once the card is in place, the
> minion who played it can loose fortitude (due to say, a contested infernal
> pact) and so it does not require fortitude anymore.
The card requires Fortitude to play.
The card in play (that requires Fortitude) doesn't require Fortitude
to use.
See "Ablative" in the online rulings list, and click the link to the
cited
article archived on Google.
> Are the counters
> "fortitude counters" ?
No. They are ablative counters, by card text.
> ::: My guess is no as it is a strike allowed by a card already (not
> ::: in play) and it was playing that card (ImTac) that required
> ::: potence; not making the strike. -presumably if you played IT with
> ::: pot and then lost your pot you could continue to use the strike.
> ::
> :: True. And the strikes are still potence strikes.
>
> So a vampire with Hand of conrad can play improvised tactics, which requires
> potence, suffer Drawing out the beast, and still be able to use those strike
> that *require* potence ?
Yes, by card text on Improvised Tactics. Requirements to play cards
are only
checked when the card is played. Once in play, the requirements to
play the
card are not checked.
Similarly, a vampire with no Obf who equips with a Changeling Skin
Mask
and plays Marked Path and then loses the CSM can still get stealth
from the
effect that *requires* obfuscate.
--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
****
>As for paying for the strike, he doesn't. LSJ (2002-05-06 10:50:12 PST) said
>"... the cost (of an action) is paid at the same time the effects are
>applied...". The way that I see things (and the way that my play group has
>always handled it) is that Strikes are like Actions, and strike modifying
>cards are like Action Modifiers, in so far as paying for them goes. That is,
>you pay for a strike when it resolves, and you pay for the strike modifier
>(eg. Wolf Claws) when you play it (i.e. immediately).
sorry. every card is payed for when it is played. from the rulebook
section 1.6.1 General, 3. Requirements...
"A drop of blood with a number on the left side of a library card (in
the middle of the side or in the bottom corner) indicates the amount
of blood or pool that must be burned to play the card."
this is how you do every card unless told to do otherwise. the only
cards you are told to do otherwise for are actions, as they are
explicitly ruled otherwise in the rulebook.
there is nothing in the rulebook to indicate that strikes are like
actions and strike modifiers like action modifiers.
additionally:
***
From: LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com)
Subject: Re: [LSJ] Logical inconsistencies -- call to revise
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Date: 2002-05-07 05:24:27 PST
Cards in general a pay-for-play-and-resolve. Exceptions to this are
actions (play and then later pay-for-resolve) and strike cards
(pay-for-play
and then later resolve).
***
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
> >> Mark wrote:
> >> || Hugo, who is equipped with the Veneficorum Artum Sanguis, has
> >> || attempted a bleed, and was blocked by Lucian. The two are in
> >> || combat, range is close, Lucian has played Shadow Feint to gain
> >> || first strike. Hugo plays blood fury as his strike, and Lucian uses
> >> || his ability to take the Veneficorum from Hugo. Does Hugo pay the
> >> || one blood for the blood fury?
> >>
> >> yes, he pays the blood and strikes with blood fury as normal since it's
> the
> >> strike he declared.
> >
> >Hmm... Actually, Reyda, I would guess that the Blood Fury would fizzle.
> >Lucien took away Hugo's ability to play Thaumaturgy cards with FIRST STRIKE.
> >That strike is completely resolved before Hugo's BF strike begins. Even
> >though the cards were played during the Choose Strike phase (and thus,
> >essentially simultaneously), Anarchs Rule Book 6.4.5 Strike Effects: First
> >Strike says:
> >
> > ... If the opposing minion was striking with a weapon that is stolen or
> >destroyed
> > with first strike, then the opposing minion simply loses his strike
> >altogether...
> >
> >Similarly, Hugo is striking using a piece of equipment, and would thus loose
> >his strike completely.
>
> his strike is not the equipment. the equipment lets him play the card,
> which he already has. using the strike once the card is played has
> nothing to do with having the equipment.
>
That is 100% true. When vampires play strike cards they must meet the
conditions before they are played. That is, pay the blood or pool
cost, meet clan or discpline reqirements.
If I may, I will use paraphase the relevant sections from the Strike
Effect (6.4.4) only,
Destroy Equipment.. "The equipment can still be used up to the point
at which the destroy equipment strike resolves."
Steal Equipment. "This effect is like destroy equipment, except that
instead of being burned, the equipment card is moved to the striking
minion."
First Strike. "A strike done with first strike is resolved before a
normal strike."
This enables the cards to be played. It means the Lucian steals the
Veneficorum Artum Sanguis first and then is smacked for 3 damage from
the blood fury!
> reference:
> ****
> From: LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com)
> Subject: Re: Why Anarch Questions
> Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
> Date: 2003-06-11 08:29:40 PST
>
> reyda wrote:
> > LSJ wrote:
> > :: Timlagor wrote:
> > :::: Improvised Tactics
> > :::: pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R
> > :::: damage each strike. pot - would that be a strike requiring
> > :::: potence (for increased strength)?
> > ::
> > :: Yes, just as Ablative Skin is "prevention requiring Fortitude" for
> > :: effects that produce damage that cannot be prevented by fortitude.
> >
> > this is something i fail to understand. Once the card is in place, the
> > minion who played it can loose fortitude (due to say, a contested infernal
> > pact) and so it does not require fortitude anymore.
>
> The card requires Fortitude to play.
> The card in play (that requires Fortitude) doesn't require Fortitude
> to use.
> See "Ablative" in the online rulings list, and click the link to the
> cited
> article archived on Google.
This is true but does not support your arguement. Gaining an effect
from an action is nothing like playing a strike card.
> > ::: My guess is no as it is a strike allowed by a card already (not
> > ::: in play) and it was playing that card (ImTac) that required
> > ::: potence; not making the strike. -presumably if you played IT with
> > ::: pot and then lost your pot you could continue to use the strike.
> > ::
> > :: True. And the strikes are still potence strikes.
> >
> > So a vampire with Hand of conrad can play improvised tactics, which requires
> > potence, suffer Drawing out the beast, and still be able to use those strike
> > that *require* potence ?
>
> Yes, by card text on Improvised Tactics. Requirements to play cards
> are only
> checked when the card is played. Once in play, the requirements to
> play the
> card are not checked.
Again this has no relevance to the current arguement. Improvised
Tactics is played before ranged is determined in the first round. It
is not a strike card, it grants an effect for the remainder of combat.
It grants the abilities on the card BEFORE range is determine, that
means before strikes are choosen and then resolved. The issue is
whether or not he can resolve the strike.
> >As for paying for the strike, he doesn't. LSJ (2002-05-06 10:50:12 PST) said
> >"... the cost (of an action) is paid at the same time the effects are
> >applied...". The way that I see things (and the way that my play group has
> >always handled it) is that Strikes are like Actions, and strike modifying
> >cards are like Action Modifiers, in so far as paying for them goes. That is,
> >you pay for a strike when it resolves, and you pay for the strike modifier
> >(eg. Wolf Claws) when you play it (i.e. immediately).
>
> sorry. every card is payed for when it is played. from the rulebook
> section 1.6.1 General, 3. Requirements...
> "A drop of blood with a number on the left side of a library card (in
> the middle of the side or in the bottom corner) indicates the amount
> of blood or pool that must be burned to play the card."
I agree. The current rules support that. When ever you play a card you
must pay the cost immediately. The only exception is actions.
> additionally:
>
> ***
> From: LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com)
> Subject: Re: [LSJ] Logical inconsistencies -- call to revise
> Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
> Date: 2002-05-07 05:24:27 PST
>
> Cards in general a pay-for-play-and-resolve. Exceptions to this are
> actions (play and then later pay-for-resolve) and strike cards
> (pay-for-play
> and then later resolve).
> ***
In summary, I believe that Hugo can play the strike card because at
the time of choosing the strike he could. Lucian, who can steal
equipment, then steals the Veneficorum Artum Sanguis with first
strike. Strike Effects come into play, as per the rules outlined
through section 6.4. This means that Lucian steals the book first but
then is smacked for the blood fury.
Andrew.
On 15 Jul 2003 01:29:15 -0700, daleaw@iinet.net.au (Andrew Daley)
scrawled:
>lsj said in a referenced article:>> Yes, by card text on Improvised Tactics. Requirements to play cards
>> are only
>> checked when the card is played. Once in play, the requirements to
>> play the
>> card are not checked.>
>Again this has no relevance to the current arguement. Improvised
>Tactics is played before ranged is determined in the first round. It
>is not a strike card, it grants an effect for the remainder of combat.
>It grants the abilities on the card BEFORE range is determine, that
>means before strikes are choosen and then resolved. The issue is
>whether or not he can resolve the strike.
the phrase "Requirements to play cards are only checked when the card
is played." seemed quite relevant. I dislkike quoting out of context,
so i thought i should include the entire post.
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
reyda wrote:
> Glen Robinson wrote:
> || "reyda" <true_reyda@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> || news:3f11f386$0$9852$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net...
> ||| Mark wrote:
> ||||| Hugo, who is equipped with the Veneficorum Artum Sanguis, has
> ||||| attempted a bleed, and was blocked by Lucian. The two are in
> ||||| combat, range is close, Lucian has played Shadow Feint to gain
> ||||| first strike. Hugo plays blood fury as his strike, and Lucian
> ||||| uses his ability to take the Veneficorum from Hugo. Does Hugo
> ||||| pay the one blood for the blood fury?
> |||
> ||| yes, he pays the blood and strikes with blood fury as normal
> ||| since it's the strike he declared.
> ||
> || Hmm... Actually, Reyda, I would guess that the Blood Fury would
> || fizzle. Lucien took away Hugo's ability to play Thaumaturgy cards
> || with FIRST STRIKE. That strike is completely resolved before
> || Hugo's BF strike begins.
>
> Nop. At the moment the strike was declared, the vampire had Thaumaturgy. So
> the strike is still valid.
>
> analogy : during a round of combat, i play superior mettle at superior (
> ;) ) and the opposing vampire presses and play superior withering. Alhtough
> i cannot play card that require discipline, i can still burn blood to
> prevent damage incoming from the opposing vampire.
>
> You only have to meet the requirements for a combat card when the cars is
> played.
Correct.
--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/