After the CAM SET ... The Inconnu maybe ?

After the CAM set ( at least 6 months i hope to digest the whole thing ) , i read a lot of stuff about Dark Ages . Personally , i would hate to see that expension because of all the problem that will do to make it compatible to VTES ( But thats only my opinion ) . But how about a Inconnu expension ? That would be sooooo cool to be able to have acces to those old vamp ( Dracula for example ). I think there is much potential for this and it would be much more easier to do that a Dark Ages expension . A other suggestion that could be really cool is a ( the ones not release ) Anti-Tribu expension . For example Serpent of light , Ravnos anti-tribu , Cam Lasombra ... What do you think ? That was my two cents ... Mechadick Quote : You will need a bigger gun ...

In message <397ee008.0202...@posting.google.com>, Mechadick <mech...@hotmail.com> writes: >But how about a >Inconnu expension ? Erm, the Inconnu tend to have very little to do with actively participating in the Jyhad. That's why they're the Inconnu. -- James Coupe but I lust after the raw pow0r of c. PGP 0x5D623D5D together with the humping great EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 elephant arse of gnome. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D - Vashti

James Coupe wrote: >Erm, the Inconnu tend to have very little to do with actively >participating in the Jyhad. > >That's why they're the Inconnu. Right. Another reason is that they are inconnu (unknown). Once you turn them over and display their stats to everyone at the table, they become very much connu. Kinda spoils the whole idea.

ja...@zephyr.org.uk writes: >Erm, the Inconnu tend to have very little to do with actively >participating in the Jyhad. >That's why they're the Inconnu. That's what THEY think. This is the World of Darkness. Everything is worse than you could possibly imagine. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson

[ quoted text not captured ] Inconnu might be better represented as an ally or master card or something. Not an actual vampire to be influenced out. T

> > A other suggestion that could be really cool is a ( the ones not > release ) Anti-Tribu expension . For example Serpent of light , Ravnos > anti-tribu , Cam Lasombra ... There is a Ravnos Anti-tribu in the game already - Anka, Priestess of Thorns. Given that they chose to release Anka like that, I'm pretty certain that Lasombra Anti-tribu are more likely to be Lasombra with Camarilla box text (much like Lucita has Independent in the box text). This means fewer card slots within the set dedicted towards Hunting Grounds, etc. After the Camarilla set? I'd like to see a set that further develops the game across the board, rather than focusing on an aspect. The game is pretty well developed - there's not an aspect of it that's ignored anymore. Now we can develop the game more fully. More Camarilla cards that target Sabbat, more Sabbat cards that target Camarilla. Some cards, only useable by titled vampires of either sect, that target independents, etc. Why keep adding unneccesary new stuff? I joke about the idea of a Dark Ages expansion - but it'd be a logistical nightmare - especially since neither Sabbat nor Camarilla existed back then. Fanboy

Not only that...but White Wolf hasn't said squat about them in the RPG...so I can just imagine all these people who have been dedicated gamers for ten years grabing pitch forks and torches...heading to Atlanta as they see all the most forbidden secrets being devulged into the card game first.... nys...@cs.com (Nystulc) wrote in message news:<20020215170250...@mb-fk.news.cs.com>... [ quoted text not captured ]

<Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3c72ba18.61033080@news... [ quoted text not captured ] Yes , but still he has a point on the anti-tribu part , ESPECIALLY the Serpent of Light ... I cant wait to play Ezekiel , Lord of Montreal !

> A other suggestion that could be really cool is a ( the ones not > release ) Anti-Tribu expension . For example Serpent of light , Ravnos > anti-tribu , Cam Lasombra ... > > What do you think ? This could look like a nice idea ; very cornercase, though. We have three lineages there, who else (usually at least 7 per extension...). And do the Followers really need some reinforcements ? They were SO well served by FN and Bloodlines... The Lasombra could sure use some more guys (yeah, Kyasid, sure... I found them more useful in a dom / aus / nec deck than in a Lasombra !!), but there could be one or two antitribes in the forthcoming Camarilla extension, so... I'd guess the next extension will be boosters only, as the Cam set will not, except of course if there is a compatibility issue (Dark Ages, Allies etc.). > That was my two cents ... > Mechadick > Quote : You will need a bigger gun ... We're lucky your name ain't "Mechagun"... ;-) Orpheus -- "In this world, we walk on the roof of hell and look at the flowers." Issa, XVIInth century japanese poet.

"Martin Lagani?e" <Spittin...@venom.com> wrote in message news:<gTmb8.35146$Hv5.3...@news20.bellglobal.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] The anti- tribu expansion might be a cool exp , better than the Inconnu, i think too that The Inconnu mihgt be better as a Master card. That愀 all.

Talonz wrote: >Inconnu might be better represented as an ally or master card or >something. Not an actual vampire to be influenced out. If anyone represents the Inconnu ("the unknown") it is the Methuselahs playing the cards. No-one ever gets to see their stats, what clan they belong to, what disciplines they posess, etc. They operate entirely behind the scenes. But the inconnu theme might be appropriate for any card that generates mystery or uncertainty in a game context. I like the idea of having a vampire whose name and stats the other players do not get to see, but this would be rather difficult to handle in terms of game mechanics.

"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> wrote in message news:20020217064452...@mb-cm.news.cs.com... > Talonz wrote: > > >Inconnu might be better represented as an ally or master card or > >something. Not an actual vampire to be influenced out. > > If anyone represents the Inconnu ("the unknown") it is the Methuselahs playing > the cards. No-one ever gets to see their stats, what clan they belong to, what > disciplines they posess, etc. They operate entirely behind the scenes. IIRC, the Methuselahs playing v:tes especially are not members of the Inconnu. The Inconnu are vampires who don't want to take part in the Jyhad (and think they don't.) Jeroen

Jeroen wrote: >> If anyone represents the Inconnu ("the unknown") it is the Methuselahs >playing >> the cards. No-one ever gets to see their stats, what clan they belong to, >what >> disciplines they posess, etc. They operate entirely behind the scenes. > >IIRC, the Methuselahs playing v:tes especially are not members of the >Inconnu. The Inconnu are vampires who don't want to take part in the Jyhad >(and think they don't.) Nobody knows this for certain. That is why they are called the Inconnu. This is also why I did not frame my statement as a certainty: "If anyone represents the Inconnu..." It is possible that the Inconnu are behind-the-schenes manipulators. All we know they don't have their cards on the table.

Bwahha ! T'es con. ;) Francois [ quoted text not captured ]

> The Lasombra could sure use some more guys (yeah, Kyasid, sure... I found > them more useful in a dom / aus / nec deck than in a Lasombra !!), but there > could be one or two antitribes in the forthcoming Camarilla extension, so... hmmm... Julia Prima has DOM OBT, is targetable by Cardinal Bene, and can get +1 bleed (against anyone!) She fills in that missing position in a Lasombra Deck (namely the lack of a 7 cap vampire.) Marconius has DOM OBT pot +1 strength, and an uncontestable Archdiocese. Yes he's another freaking 9 cap Lasombra with 2 votes, but he's so good at it. Besides he's another target for your 10's to govern out. Bart and Beatrice are their own little clan deck, but Kassiym with OBT dom for makes a nice fit in the Lasombra's with for deck, and is another OBT vamp for "cheap". Cameron Domer

>There is a Ravnos Anti-tribu in the game already - Anka, Priestess of >Thorns. People keep saying this. I don't see the !Ravnos symbol anywhere on the card. >Given that they chose to release Anka like that, I'm pretty certain >that Lasombra Anti-tribu are more likely to be Lasombra with Camarilla >box text (much like Lucita has Independent in the box text). This >means fewer card slots within the set dedicted towards Hunting >Grounds, etc. The Sabbat is still incomplete. While the game is pushing towards catching up with the WoD, it started with first edition. And, if we can get the obscure bloodlines, we can get the antitribu of the independents.

cur...@aol.com (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20020220145727...@mb-fx.aol.com>... > >There is a Ravnos Anti-tribu in the game already - Anka, Priestess of > >Thorns. > > People keep saying this. I don't see the !Ravnos symbol anywhere on the card. That's because there really is no such organization as the !Ravnos, sure there are Ravnos who choose to associate themselves with the Sabbat, but there is so few of them that an entire "clan" designation is useless. I'll have more explanation and thoughts further down > >Given that they chose to release Anka like that, I'm pretty certain > >that Lasombra Anti-tribu are more likely to be Lasombra with Camarilla > >box text (much like Lucita has Independent in the box text). This > >means fewer card slots within the set dedicted towards Hunting > >Grounds, etc. > > The Sabbat is still incomplete. While the game is pushing towards catching up > with the WoD, it started with first edition. And, if we can get the obscure > bloodlines, we can get the antitribu of the independents. I believe that for the Independants and the few anti's of the Sabbat clans, using the Cam/Indi/Sabbat designation in the text field is the best way to go. 1. No need for new hunting grounds. 2. Options available to the main clan are still available (although I think that problems with this will arrise from the purist view) 3. An antitribu of an Indi clan is what, Sabbat? Camarilla?, Antitribu means against the clan, if your clan is not a member of anything how can you be against it? 4. Not every single Indi clan member is considered Antitribu and the following is why: The Ravnos don't have aliegences to any group so how can you be "anti" when there is nothing to be against? The Ravnos philosphy is that you can associate with whom ever you like Sabbat or Cam, they are too laid back as a clan to care about being "Antitribu", plus with their numbers decimated they really can't put up too much of a fuss. The Giovanni don't have Sabbat members period (at least according to them). One or two might exist but that vamp will be on his own because the main clan will "kick him out" and with the Harbingers already in the Sabbat, I'd expect a Giovanni in the Sabbat to have a very short shelf life. The Assamites did have a group in the Sabbat that were so fundamentally different than that main clan to have been at one time considered Antitribu, but no longer. With the curse broken (as evedenced in the card Tadjid) the difference from the main clan is nill. Indeed, according to the RPG, many of the antis are coming back to the clan while many of the independents are leaving for either the Sabbat of the Cam, because of differences with good ol' Ur Shulgi. The only indi clan that realy could be considered to actually have a presence (no pun inteded) in the Sabbat are the Followers of Set in their anti clan the Serpents of the Light. Much like the antitrubi counterparts to the Camarilla vampires, the Serpents of the Light have a vastly different ideology and outlook which conflicts with the main clan. Furthermore, the FoS and SotL consider each other mortal (or immortal) enemies to be killed.

"Tobias Loehr" <tlo...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message news:ddd3e087.0202...@posting.google.com... > cur...@aol.com (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20020220145727...@mb-fx.aol.com>... > > The only indi clan that realy could be considered to actually have a > presence (no pun inteded) in the Sabbat are the Followers of Set in > their anti clan the Serpents of the Light. Much like the antitrubi > counterparts to the Camarilla vampires, the Serpents of the Light have > a vastly different ideology and outlook which conflicts with the main > clan. Furthermore, the FoS and SotL consider each other mortal (or > immortal) enemies to be killed. > That's fine for the Independent clans (and yes, I think that Serpents of the Light should *really* be a different clan... that is, assuming that the other !tribu clans should exist, which is a debatable point), but what about the Lasombra Antitribu? There are, just barely, enough of them to be a clan, and much like the SoL, they are in no way related to their anti-clan. The Nos and !Nos maybe shouldn't be separate clans, but the Las and !Las probably should be. As for Old Clan Tzimice - they don't really exist anyway.... ;) Although I'd still like to see a few Bratovich and Koldun Tzimice. Stravinsky and Sascha don't count. Violet is close, but in order to really be a Koldun sorcerer she should really have ani aus THA instead of dom pre tha vic.

Francois Gombault <fgom...@I.dont.like.spam.activia.net> wrote in message news:<a4tvac$bkm$1...@s1.read.news.oleane.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Tu peux le dire ... lol Comme dirais Cartman : Je vous enmerde et je m'en vais ą ma maison ... Mechadick

Chris Berger wrote: >That's fine for the Independent clans (and yes, I think that Serpents of the >Light should *really* be a different clan... that is, assuming that the >other !tribu clans should exist, which is a debatable point), I suppose they have to be a different clan, for semantic reasons. The name of the clan is "Followers of Set" and the SoL are not that. Had the clan name been "Settites" it might have been extended to include both, since they are all Set's descendants. >but what about >the Lasombra Antitribu? There are, just barely, enough of them to be a >clan, and much like the SoL, they are in no way related to their anti-clan. IIRC from the sourcebooks, the non-Sabbat Lasombra claim no separate clan identity. They simply reject allegiance to the Sabbat. Nor do they call themselves "antitribu". They consider themselves Lasombra. Seems there is no compelling reason for the card game not to follow suit, simply call them Lasombra, and merely assign them separate sect allegiance. Flipping through the currently available Lasombra-specific resources, I see nothing that would seem horribly inappropriate if played by a Camarilla Lasombra, unless you argue that the theme of political power is inappropriate for so small a grouping, or that they should not have access to the Sabbat Lasombra's "power structure". >The Nos and !Nos maybe shouldn't be separate clans, Well. A card could be printed allowing these to switch clans, analagous to Feral Spirit, perhaps, or an inexpensive, clan-specific Clan Impersonation. I'd like to see, in general, cards that allow Antitribu to switch sides and become main-clan, and vice versa. It used to be that these were considered separate bloodlines, because of the effect of some wierd Sabbat ritual, but I don't know if this is still considered true. My impression is that the current position is that the difference is purely one of allegiance rather than blood, and that this is why recent edition rules backed away from the idea of different "in-clan" disciplines for clan and anti-clan (in the case of the Ventrue and Malkavians). >but the Las and !Las probably should be. OK, but there probably wouldn't be much of a point. >As for Old Clan Tzimice - they don't really exist >anyway.... ;) The vampires exist, they are just not a "clan". >Although I'd still like to see a few Bratovich and Koldun >Tzimice. Sure, but these are not clans, of course. >Stravinsky and Sascha don't count. Violet is close, but in order >to really be a Koldun sorcerer she should really have ani aus THA instead of >dom pre tha vic. In order to really be a Koldunic sorceror, I guess she would have to practice Koldunic sorcery (and the thaumaturgy symbol can represent that if you choose to imagine it as such). As for whether she is a Koldunic Tzimisce (of the Koldunic bloodline), there is no way to tell, as there is no requirement that all members of a bloodline must be typical.

"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> wrote in message news:20020221133721...@mb-mt.news.cs.com... > Chris Berger wrote: > > >but what about > >the Lasombra Antitribu? There are, just barely, enough of them to be a > >clan, and much like the SoL, they are in no way related to their anti-clan. > > IIRC from the sourcebooks, the non-Sabbat Lasombra claim no separate clan > identity. They simply reject allegiance to the Sabbat. Nor do they call > themselves "antitribu". They consider themselves Lasombra. Seems there is no > compelling reason for the card game not to follow suit, simply call them > Lasombra, and merely assign them separate sect allegiance. > I dunno if the Antitribu consider themselves such, in general, but the Lasombra absolutely hate those of their clan who have defected. Other than the Serpents of the Light, they probably have the strongest break attitude-wise with their antitribu. > >As for Old Clan Tzimice - they don't really exist > >anyway.... ;) > > The vampires exist, they are just not a "clan". > No. They don't exist. Shh.... You didn't see nothin', kid. > >Although I'd still like to see a few Bratovich and Koldun > >Tzimice. > > Sure, but these are not clans, of course. > Obviously. It'd just be cool to have them represented like Tsigane.of the Phuri Dae bloodline (ani aus chi). Similarly, a few Warrior Settites (pot pre ser), and even Vizier Assamites (obf qui tha - ironically, there are 6 Assamites with tha, but all of them have CEL, which Viziers almost never learn) would be kind of nice, too, as well as at least one more Phuri Dae. I'm a little disappointed that these bloodlines weren't explored in Final Nights. Personally, I'd have much prefered that bloodlines of this sort (no new clans, no new disciplines) were explored rather than the Bloodlines with all new disciplines, but c'est la mort. > >Stravinsky and Sascha don't count. Violet is close, but in order > >to really be a Koldun sorcerer she should really have ani aus THA instead of > >dom pre tha vic. > > As for whether she is a Koldunic Tzimisce (of the > Koldunic bloodline), there is no way to tell, as there is no requirement that > all members of a bloodline must be typical. > Sure, but I don't give a rat's ass about whether or not she nominally belongs to the bloodline. The storyline can take a flying leap for all I'm concerned. I just think it'd be nice to have more odd discipline combos represented in game, and those which are formally acknowledged as bloodlines are a good place to start (Violet definitely has an odd discipline combo, which is good... but it's not really useful for much, especially when she's got such a cool special, if only she had pot). Ani/Pot/Vic and Ani/Aus/Tha would be interesting combos. It's too bad that the 5 pairs of basic disciplines that are not yet represented by a clan or bloodline in V:TES are also pretty non-existant in V:TM, as far as I can tell. Those being aus/pot, ani/dom, ani/cel, cel/dom, cel/for. Of course, most of that is Celerity's fault, being a pretty uncommon discipline.

Chris Berger wrote: >Sure, but I don't give a rat's ass about whether or not she nominally >belongs to the bloodline. The storyline can take a flying leap for all I'm >concerned. I just think it'd be nice to have more odd discipline combos >represented in game, and those which are formally acknowledged as bloodlines >are a good place to start Sure. I agree totally. Right now, we also have a single token "Greek Gangrel", Panagos Levidis. These are a Dark Ages bloodline with ani, obf pro. I'd like to see some companions for Mirembe Kebadda. She's kinda hard to use on her own. I don't care that WoD source materials do not recognize the existence of any such "African Gangrel" bloodline. They can just be a family of vampires. Similarly, it would be nice to have one or two more of Dancin Dana's projeny to add to Zoe, Victoria, and Dollface (aus, cel, obf). Maybe we can continue the theme of having them all be female. Yeah, I know Dana's a guy, but he thinks otherwise and that's what counts.

"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> wrote in message news:20020221152823...@mb-mt.news.cs.com... > > Similarly, it would be nice to have one or two more of Dancin Dana's projeny > to add to Zoe, Victoria, and Dollface (aus, cel, obf). Maybe we can continue > the theme of having them all be female. Yeah, I know Dana's a guy, but he > thinks otherwise and that's what counts. > Actually, I was kinda thinking that that was one bloodline that could probably be done. 4 Vampires of capacities 3, 3, 5, 6 with the same 3 disciplines (1 out-of-clan) is a actually a pretty good splash. They fit very well in a Malk/Ass/!Gan gun deck, especially if you want to add Aus for defense (which I did.. it was an interesting little deck... not too terrible. Not great, but a lot better than any *other* Assamite deck I've ever tried to make). Panagos Levidis (ani obf) and Raziya Samater (ani pot) are kind of interesting as Nosferatu wannabes, but you're right, it'd be nice to have companions for them with one more in-clan discipline (ani obf pro and ani cel pot would work nicely). As for Mirembe Kabbada (I snipped that part... sorry... too lazy to go cut and paste it in), she does have Amisa as a companion, and Nehsi, sort of. Or Hesha, Aisha, and Petru Sipos if you want to do something sick and wrong with ani/SER, but it really would be nice to have another ser/pro vampire, especially one that's not too big.

> I'm a little disappointed that these bloodlines weren't explored in Final > Nights. Personally, I'd have much prefered that bloodlines of this sort (no > new clans, no new disciplines) were explored rather than the Bloodlines with > all new disciplines, but c'est la mort. Well, the Ravnos have two variant bloodlines - Phuri Dae and Urmen. The Urmen have Presence instead of Animalism. Ankla Hotep is Urmen. I would like to see both of them further developed, honestly. Maybe that's because I love playing Ravnos, though. Fanboy

nys...@cs.com writes: >My impression is that the current >position is that the difference is purely one of allegiance rather than blood, >and that this is why recent edition rules backed away from the idea of >different "in-clan" disciplines for clan and anti-clan (in the case of the >Ventrue and Malkavians). I wasn't aware of this. Is WW retconning the !Ventrue to Dominate and the +Malkavians to Dementate? What are they doing about all the stuff in print (cards and otherwise) which indicates otherwise? [ quoted text not captured ]

CurtAdams wrote: > > nys...@cs.com writes: > > >My impression is that the current > >position is that the difference is purely one of allegiance rather than blood, > >and that this is why recent edition rules backed away from the idea of > >different "in-clan" disciplines for clan and anti-clan (in the case of the > >Ventrue and Malkavians). > > I wasn't aware of this. Is WW retconning the !Ventrue to Dominate > and the +Malkavians to Dementate? What are they doing about all the > stuff in print (cards and otherwise) which indicates otherwise? Be careful about confusing VtM rules with VTES rules. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

vte...@white-wolf.com writes: >> I wasn't aware of this. Is WW retconning the !Ventrue to Dominate >> and the +Malkavians to Dementate? What are they doing about all the >> stuff in print (cards and otherwise) which indicates otherwise? >Be careful about confusing VtM rules with VTES rules. I'm not; the question was about VtM rules. The cards are relevant as there's cross-marketing going on here; people will get confused if they're drawn into a storyline tourney to push the Malks only to discover they have the wrong disciplines. OTOH, if the Cam set Malks switch to Dementate the Malks will probably be dis- advantaged vis-a-vis the other Cam clan (perhaps not a bad thing, though). In any case, the cards aren't just a game, they're also a mode for learning about the WoD. And seriously, what about all the old Chronicles and books and players? I thought WW was trying for a running story bit. [ quoted text not captured ]

CurtAdams wrote: > > vte...@white-wolf.com writes: > > >> I wasn't aware of this. Is WW retconning the !Ventrue to Dominate > >> and the +Malkavians to Dementate? What are they doing about all the > >> stuff in print (cards and otherwise) which indicates otherwise? > > >Be careful about confusing VtM rules with VTES rules. > > I'm not; the question was about VtM rules. Ah. In that case: In VtM, !Ven "clan disciplines" match the Camarilla Ventrue. And the Camarilla Malks now have Dementation instead of Dominate. But that's just the RPG. If the vampires in the card game happen to frequently have the same disciplines in the same clan, well, that's just card text. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3C75B20D...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white- wolf.com> writes: <clan disciplines> >But that's just the RPG. If the vampires in the card game happen >to frequently have the same disciplines in the same clan, well, >that's just card text. :-) I seem to recall the rules booklet that came with V:TES had the 'clan disciplines' on the inside flap of the back of the booklet. I could be completely wrong on this, however. And it didn't actually specify anything for the rules, anyway. -- James Coupe but I lust after the raw pow0r of c. PGP 0x5D623D5D together with the humping great EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 elephant arse of gnome. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D - Vashti

James Coupe wrote: > I seem to recall the rules booklet that came with V:TES had the 'clan > disciplines' on the inside flap of the back of the booklet. Title of that flap: "Clan Symbols & Common Clan Disciplines" [ quoted text not captured ]

Chris Berger wrote: >> They consider themselves Lasombra. Seems there >is no >> compelling reason for the card game not to follow suit, simply call them >> Lasombra, and merely assign them separate sect allegiance. >> >I dunno if the Antitribu consider themselves such, in general, but the >Lasombra absolutely hate those of their clan who have defected. I don't have the books, I just browse them at Barnes & Noble. But I'm quite sure that one of the primary sourcebooks (Guide to the Camarilla, maybe), in the section entitled Lasombra Antitribu, it says quite specifically that the socalled Lasombra Antitribu refer to themselves as, and consider themselves to be, simply "Lasombra". Of course, there is no compelling reason why members of the same clan cannot hate each other, because of philosophy, sect allegiance, or whatever. If a Sabbat Lasombra gains a Writ of Acceptance, then presumably his Sabbat counterparts should hate him just as much as, from a thematic background standpoint. If anything, Writ of Acceptance implies a greater degree of betrayal than Clan Impersonation, which implies espionage. The theme of Sabbat hostility to defectors or cross sect members will not be effectively simulated, in the card game, by defining them as separate clans. It might be more efficient to introduce cards that reflect such themes.