rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

TOM: Domain Tradition Question

20 messages from 10 participants · 20 June 1995 – 24 June 1995
original thread on Google Groups

Brian Tandy

Friends, This is one of those sure to be asked questions that come up every once in a while. I did not find an exhaustively written ruling on this in Scott's archives so here goes: First off, a new guy in our group, we'll call him Rude Boy, made a fuss every time I tried to use this card. He seems to think that it is unusable unless I also play WwEF. Clearly insane, I think. I think we can at least say this: The vampire using the card must be a prince or justicar and must be tapped. Here is the situation. I'm tapped out. My predator tries to bleed me at 0 stealth. Can I play Domain? Usually one cannot add intercept unless the acting vampire adds stealth. Does the +2 intercept on Domain prohibit me from using it, then? Rude Boy says definitely yes. The second situation was: Predator tries to use Hospitality Tradition. I say no way and attempt to intercept using the Domain Tradition, using it w/o WwEF on a tapped prince. No more stealth was added so we go into combat. Is this correct? Rude Boy said no but I ignored him... Thanks. Brian Tandy

Thomas R Wylie

Domain is a reaction that can only be used by a tapped prince or justicar. That vampire untaps, and attempts to block the action at +2 intercept. It can thus only be used if you actually need to increase the reacting vampire's intercept. If it is used successfully, the blocking procedure continues normally, including going into combat if the block is ultimately successful. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

James R. McClure Jr.

bta...@bernard.ma.utexas.edu (Brian Tandy) wrote: >First off, a new guy in our group, we'll call him Rude Boy, made a fuss >every time I tried to use this card. He seems to think that it is unusable >unless I also play WwEF. Clearly insane, I think. Peace Brian, No, 2nd Trad is a stronger WwEF (and can be used while untapped). >I think we can at least say this: The vampire using the card must be a prince >or justicar and must be tapped. No, you don't have to be tapped. >Here is the situation. I'm tapped out. My predator tries to bleed me at 0 >stealth. Can I play Domain? Usually one cannot add intercept unless the >acting vampire adds stealth. Does the +2 intercept on Domain prohibit me >from using it, then? Rude Boy says definitely yes. Yes, you may untap and intercept. >The second situation was: Predator tries to use Hospitality Tradition. I say >no way and attempt to intercept using the Domain Tradition, using it w/o >WwEF on a tapped prince. No more stealth was added so we go into combat. >Is this correct? Rude Boy said no but I ignored him... Yes, you may untap and intercept. Nil carborundum illigitimi, James R. McClure Jr. The OS/2 Apostle <insert disclaimer here>

Thomas R Wylie

Domain may *not* be played by an untapped prince or justicar. This is the ruling on the Jyhad card, and spelled out in the V:TES text. [ quoted text not captured ]

Algustas

On 20 Jun 1995, Thomas R Wylie wrote: > > Domain is a reaction that can only be used by a tapped prince or justicar. > That vampire untaps, and attempts to block the action at +2 intercept. > It can thus only be used if you actually need to increase the reacting > vampire's intercept. If it is used successfully, the blocking procedure > continues normally, including going into combat if the block is ultimately > successful. > > > Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for > aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc. > > > Hi Tom, This may sound a little dense, but it sounds like my group has been playing this card wrong, so I better double check. If someone is taking a zero stealth action (say a bleed) then this card is not useable to untap and block? Algustas *****I would rather loose in a cause that will some day win, than win in a cause that will some day lose!***** Woodrow Wilson

Paul Schaaf

On 20 Jun 1995, Thomas R Wylie wrote: > > Domain is a reaction that can only be used by a tapped prince or justicar. > That vampire untaps, and attempts to block the action at +2 intercept. > It can thus only be used if you actually need to increase the reacting > vampire's intercept. If it is used successfully, the blocking procedure > continues normally, including going into combat if the block is ultimately > successful. Huh... So I CAN'T block a zero stealth bleed, but I CAN block a +2 stealth bleed? What about a +1 stealth bleed? I thought I understood this card, but now I'm confused. --------- Paul Schaaf sch...@u.washington.edu

L. Scott Johnson

Paul Schaaf <sch...@u.washington.edu> wrote: >On 20 Jun 1995, Thomas R Wylie wrote: >> Domain is a reaction that can only be used by a tapped prince or justicar. >> That vampire untaps, and attempts to block the action at +2 intercept. >> It can thus only be used if you actually need to increase the reacting >> vampire's intercept. If it is used successfully, the blocking procedure >> continues normally, including going into combat if the block is ultimately >> successful. > >So I CAN'T block a zero stealth bleed, but I CAN block a +2 stealth >bleed? What about a +1 stealth bleed? I thought I understood this card, >but now I'm confused. > It's simple: you can only use 2nd Tradition if you have a tapped Prince with less intercept than the acting Minion (who you don't control) has stealth. Acting Prince Use 2nd Stealth Tapped Tradition? ------- ------- ---------- 1. 0 N N 2. 0 Y N 3. +X (X>0) N N 4. +X (X>0) Y Y Princes are only capable of policing their domain when they are tired and when the perpetrators are being careful. Well rested Princes cannot police their domain. Princes cannot Police their domain against sloppy outsiders. A Prince has an even harder time policing his domain if he is unfortunate enough to have recruited a Raven Spy, since now the outsider must go to +2 stealth before the prince can invoke the 2nd Tradition. Makes sense to me. -- ----- L. Scott Johnson (lsc...@crl.com) | The opinions expressed are mine Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger | and subject to card text

L. Scott Johnson

In article <3s73js$f...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote: > >Domain is a reaction that can only be used by a tapped prince or justicar. >That vampire untaps, and attempts to block the action at +2 intercept. >It can thus only be used if you actually need to increase the reacting >vampire's intercept. If it is used successfully, the blocking procedure >continues normally, including going into combat if the block is ultimately >successful. So: what you are saying is that the 2nd Tradition produces Two effects: Unatping and +2 intercept - both of which *must* be used in order to play the card. Unlike Superior Bonding (which produces two effects: +1 bleed and +1 stealth, but may be used even if stealth is not yet required). And, the kicker, unlike Anarch Troublemaker - which *can* be used (according to the DT who rule that only part of a card effect need be used in order to use the card) to only part of its effect - tapping only one minion. Subject: Revised Jyhad FAQ: 4/18/95 version Date: 18 Apr 1995 23:01:44 GMT >First an important overall ruling: A card can be played, even if >only part of its requirements are covered. For example Anarch >Troublemaker can be played even if your prey only has one vampire >in play. Please note that this is completely opposite how we rule >on Magic cards. (12/2) To be consistent (something the DT hates to be) - you should be able to play 2nd tradtion for either untapping or +2 intercept or both, as needed - just like the card is worded (in Jyhad - not the "fixed" wording of V:tES). [ quoted text not captured ]

Eric Pettersen

Paul Schaaf <sch...@u.washington.edu> wrote: > On 20 Jun 1995, Thomas R Wylie wrote: > > > > Domain is a reaction that can only be used by a tapped prince or > > justicar. That vampire untaps, and attempts to block the action at > > +2 intercept. It can thus only be used if you actually need to increase > > the reacting vampire's intercept. If it is used successfully, the > > blocking procedure continues normally, including going into combat if > > the block is ultimately successful. > Huh... > So I CAN'T block a zero stealth bleed, but I CAN block a +2 stealth > bleed? What about a +1 stealth bleed? I thought I understood this > card, but now I'm confused. Furthermore, if the tapped prince has a sports bike, does the bleed have to be +2 stealth before he can use Domain to intercept??? --- Eric Pettersen pe...@cgl.ucsf.edu (NeXTmail capable)

James R. McClure Jr.

lsc...@crl.com (L. Scott Johnson) wrote: >Subject: Revised Jyhad FAQ: 4/18/95 version >Date: 18 Apr 1995 23:01:44 GMT > >>First an important overall ruling: A card can be played, even if >>only part of its requirements are covered. For example Anarch >>Troublemaker can be played even if your prey only has one vampire >>in play. Please note that this is completely opposite how we rule >>on Magic cards. (12/2) > > >To be consistent (something the DT hates to be) - you should be able to >play 2nd tradtion for either untapping or +2 intercept or both, as >needed - just like the card is worded (in Jyhad - not the "fixed" wording >of V:tES). Peace Scott, Excellent point! [ quoted text not captured ]

Thomas R Wylie

L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote: >So: what you are saying is that the 2nd Tradition produces Two effects: >Unatping and +2 intercept - both of which *must* be used in order to play >the card. Yes. It says "Only usable by a tapped vampire...", so can only be used by one that is tapped. The rules say you can only play an intercept card if you actually need to raise your intercept. Therefore both conditions can be met. >Unlike Superior Bonding (which produces two effects: +1 bleed and +1 stealth, >but may be used even if stealth is not yet required). You actually cannot play a stealth card unless someone attempts to block, and you need to exceed their intercept value. But since you can just go ahead and play Bonding for +1 bleed, this doesn't matter normally. >And, the kicker, unlike Anarch Troublemaker - which *can* be used(according to >the DT who rule that only part of a card effect need be used in order to >use the card) to only part of its effect - tapping only one minion. Because there is no general rule regulating the use of tapping effects (as there is with intercept and stealth), and AT doesn't say that it cares whether both minions are there, or untapped. [ quoted text not captured ]

Thomas R Wylie

Eric Pettersen <pe...@homer.ucsf.edu> wrote: >Furthermore, if the tapped prince has a sports bike, does the bleed have >to be +2 stealth before he can use Domain to intercept??? No, because using equipment is optional. You can decline to use Sport Bike if you want to use other intercept sources. [ quoted text not captured ]

Steven Bauer

>To be consistent (something the DT hates to be) - you should be able to >play 2nd tradtion for either untapping or +2 intercept or both, as >needed - just like the card is worded (in Jyhad - not the "fixed" wording >of V:tES). And to me the DUMB wording on the card makes it unclear what the card does, " +2 intercept. Usable by a tapped vampire that untaps to block." To me the statement "Usable by a vampire that untaps to block" means the vampire must untap to use this card. wouldn't "Usable by a tapped vampire. The vampire may attempt to block an action as if untapped at +2 intercept" be much more clear. Or I guess to more accuratly reflect Tom's ruling. "Usable only by a tapped vampire. The vampire may attempt to block an action as untapped with +2 intercept. Only ussable if intercept is required to block the action." Why can't they write cards that are clear as to what we do. Well, if the did my Jyhad group would have nothing to argue about Steven Bauer email:ba...@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu

Algustas

On 21 Jun 1995, Thomas R Wylie wrote: > You actually cannot play a stealth card unless someone attempts to block, > and you need to exceed their intercept value. But since you can just go Edited for Television > > > Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for > aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc. Hi Tom, Does this mean that if I have 3 different cards in my hand that will give me +1 stealth and the minion attempting to block has +1 intercept, that I can not play these cards sequentially to gain more stealth than he has intercept? If I understand you correctly you are saying the stealth must all come from one source. Algustas *****Whoever can suprize well must conquer.***** John Paul Jones

L. Scott Johnson

In article <3s9t2j$t...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote: >L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote: >>So: what you are saying is that the 2nd Tradition produces Two effects: >>Unatping and +2 intercept - both of which *must* be used in order to play >>the card. > >>And, the kicker, unlike Anarch Troublemaker - which *can* be used(according to >>the DT who rule that only part of a card effect need be used in order to >>use the card) to only part of its effect - tapping only one minion. > >Because there is no general rule regulating the use of tapping effects >(as there is with intercept and stealth), and AT doesn't say that it >cares whether both minions are there, or untapped. No one is talking about tapping effects. There *is* a general rule (I'll quote it again for those with strong delete keys) for cards with multiple requirements: >First an important overall ruling: A card can be played, even if >only part of its requirements are covered. Anarch Trouble: Tap one minion, the other one, or both. 2nd Tradition: +2 intercept, untap, or untap with +2 intercept. (The card didn't say "Only usable by a tapped... until the DT made the incorrect ruling) [ quoted text not captured ]

L. Scott Johnson

In article <3s9jjr$o...@cgl.ucsf.edu>, Eric Pettersen <pe...@homer.ucsf.edu> wrote: >Paul Schaaf <sch...@u.washington.edu> wrote: >> On 20 Jun 1995, Thomas R Wylie wrote: >> > Domain is a reaction that can only be used by a tapped prince or >> > justicar. That vampire untaps, and attempts to block the action at >> > +2 intercept. It can thus only be used if you actually need to increase >> > the reacting vampire's intercept. If it is used successfully, the >> > blocking procedure continues normally, including going into combat if >> > the block is ultimately successful. > >> So I CAN'T block a zero stealth bleed, but I CAN block a +2 stealth >> bleed? What about a +1 stealth bleed? I thought I understood this >> card, but now I'm confused. > >Furthermore, if the tapped prince has a sports bike, does the bleed have >to be +2 stealth before he can use Domain to intercept??? No, because the sport bike is optional (because it is equipment). If he has a raven spy (Retainers are not optional), then yes. [ quoted text not captured ]

J. Andrew Lipscomb

In article <Pine.ULT.3.91j.95062...@stein1.u.washington.edu>, Paul Schaaf <sch...@u.washington.edu> wrote: > On 20 Jun 1995, Thomas R Wylie wrote: > > > > > Domain is a reaction that can only be used by a tapped prince or justicar. > > That vampire untaps, and attempts to block the action at +2 intercept. > > It can thus only be used if you actually need to increase the reacting > > vampire's intercept. If it is used successfully, the blocking procedure > > continues normally, including going into combat if the block is ultimately > > successful. > > Huh... > > So I CAN'T block a zero stealth bleed, but I CAN block a +2 stealth > bleed? What about a +1 stealth bleed? I thought I understood this card, > but now I'm confused. So it appears, with that card. To block a 0-stealth bleed, use WwEF. J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> PGP keys by request Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.

Chris Rhodes

aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes: >Domain may *not* be played by an untapped prince or justicar. This is >the ruling on the Jyhad card, and spelled out in the V:TES text. Why can you not use it when your Prince/Justicar is untapped? I would have thought that, like Anarch Trouble Maker, you could use just part of the card text... chris

Thomas R Wylie

Algustas <cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote: > Does this mean that if I have 3 different cards in my hand that >will give me +1 stealth and the minion attempting to block has +1 >intercept, that I can not play these cards sequentially to gain more >stealth than he has intercept? If I understand you correctly you are >saying the stealth must all come from one source. You can keep playing stealth cards over and over again, until or unless your minion's stealth exceeds the intercept of the minion presently attempting to block it. The inverse applies to playing intercept cards. [ quoted text not captured ]

Eric Pettersen

[ quoted text not captured ] Though I don't particularly agree with the ruling, I certainly can explain the difference in the two situations. The DTR is saying that you can waste part of the _effects_ of a card, not ignore part of the prerequisites for playing the card, i.e. they are saying that for 2nd Tradition: Prerequisites ---------------- 1) Prince / Justicar 2) tapped 3) attempting to block 4) must need additional intercept to block Effects --------- 1) +2 intercept 2) untapped Most of us don't agree with #2 and #4 being prerequisites. [ quoted text not captured ]