The New Colours

Here is my early morning, no coffee, stayed up all night grading rant about the new colours, it is in no way well written, or even well composed, the spelling and grammar usage is abyssmal, but the feeling I take credit for, David Hello, I am disappointed that none of the questions about Set layout were covered in the Developer Chat. I don't know if that is Conrad or Steve's fault. Steve, I appreciate the attempt to help fix up the cracks and corners in VTES, I thank you for all efforts to make the game more accesible to new people. I *like* the new layout. I HATE the new colours, they are awful. I am sure you need no reminder that this game will live with or without White Wolf, although I know we all prefer to have you guys making new cards and employing LSJ and his wisdom. BUT why, why didn't you get a larger sampling of opinions about the new cards? Why didn't you guys make sure the colours came out before printing so many? I mean White Wolf is a professional company now, no more excusses. This Sh*t was tolerated in 92,93, 94 when you guys were "the Renaissance in games", but you(and your Bro) have been doing this stuff for what 13+ years now? Its poor form, dodging the questins in the Chat the other day was worse. This game is played because people love it, please talk to the community that is supporting your company. Imagine if this was a new game, do you really think you have done enough to sell it on its own? I doubt it, WE do the work for you guys, treat us with more respect. David Oros

In article <d26eca78.02082...@posting.google.com>, David Oros <der...@u.washington.edu> wrote: >Here is my early morning, no coffee, stayed up all night grading rant >about the new colours, it is in no way well written, or even well >composed, the spelling and grammar usage is abyssmal, but the feeling >I take credit for, >David Silly question: What's wrong with the colors? I mean, they all look good to me. gomi -- Blood, guts, guns, cuts Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts

Gomi no Sensei wrote: > In article <d26eca78.02082...@posting.google.com>, > David Oros <der...@u.washington.edu> wrote: >> Here is my early morning, no coffee, stayed up all night grading >> rant about the new colours, it is in no way well written, or even >> well composed, the spelling and grammar usage is abyssmal, but the >> feeling I take credit for, >> David > > Silly question: > > What's wrong with the colors? I mean, they all look good to me. They could have enhanced them, not necessarily changed them. And why the need to change the background color of the sabbat clans too ?? look at the !trem and !ventrue ! I can 't imagine the need.

> > Silly question: > What's wrong with the colors? I mean, they all look good to me. > > gomi > -- Other than the fact that they all look nearly identical? Not much.

In article <vdb99.328472$q53.10...@twister.austin.rr.com>, The Bard of Crete <tlo...@satx.rr.com> wrote: >> Silly question: >> What's wrong with the colors? I mean, they all look good to me. >Other than the fact that they all look nearly identical? Not much. Which colors do you mean? I am finding the reds and greens fairly distinct, and the blues and stuff too. If all the colors were nearly identical, I'd have a harder time reading the card text. Am I missing something, or are you using 'colors' to refer to some specific element I'm not aware of? gomi confused [ quoted text not captured ]

> Which colors do you mean?.... Am I missing something, or are you using 'colors' to >refer to some specific element I'm not aware of? > We are referring to the background color that border the pictures. Most are in varying shades of brown, not the striking difference that used to exist.

In article <NMb99.328723$q53.10...@twister.austin.rr.com>, The Bard of Crete <tlo...@satx.rr.com> wrote: >We are referring to the background color that border the pictures. Most are >in varying shades of brown, not the striking difference that used to exist. Oh. Wow, that never occurred to me. They all looked pretty distinct to me at the pre-release. Ventrue and Tremere are both kind of purplish, and Toreador and Nosferatu are kind of brownish, but the texturing is totally distinct in each case (horizontal ribbing for Ventrue, arcane sigils for Tremere, burlap rags for Nosferatu, and cloudy flowery stuff for Toreador). Brujah and Malkavian are each quite different from each other clan. I didn't have any trouble distinguishing clans, personally <shrug>. I guess YMMV. gomi [ quoted text not captured ]

> I didn't have any trouble distinguishing clans, personally <shrug>. I guess > YMMV. > ...now look at the library cards...

In article <Y3c99.328975$q53.10...@twister.austin.rr.com>, The Bard of Crete <tlo...@satx.rr.com> wrote: >...now look at the library cards... I suppose, if I was in a big hurry, I could conceivably confuse a master card with an action or something. But combat, equipment, ally, reaction, and action modifier backgrounds all look pretty distinct to me. Plus you have corner symbols to go by. I mean, all the backgrounds were the same back in the Jyhad days, and we managed to cope. Having a few be kind of similar isn't really a big hardship here unless you're playing Rapid Thought tournaments or something. [ quoted text not captured ]

Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > In article <vdb99.328472$q53.10...@twister.austin.rr.com>, > The Bard of Crete <tlo...@satx.rr.com> wrote: > > >> Silly question: > >> What's wrong with the colors? I mean, they all look good to me. > > >Other than the fact that they all look nearly identical? Not much. > > Which colors do you mean? I am finding the reds and greens fairly > distinct, and the blues and stuff too. If all the colors were nearly > identical, I'd have a harder time reading the card text. Am I missing > something, or are you using 'colors' to refer to some specific element > I'm not aware of? The vampire backgrounds, Gomi. Just take a good long look at the backgrounds. You've got Brujah dark black violet, Malkavian mostly black with a tiny bit of yellow, Nosferatu dark black brown, Toreador black and dark pink, Tremere even darker black brown, and Ventrue so-much-of-it-is- black-I-can't-even-tell-what-the-other-color-is-and-black. Are we seeing a kind of a theme here? Fred

In article <3D654C08...@removethis.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] Wow. Are we looking at the same cards here? The Malks are like NEON SCREAMING YELLOW -- only the black mottling saves them from Hidjousness. Brujah are dark blue. Nos are like medium brown. Toreadoer are creamy brown with no pink anywhere. Trem are purple, Ventrue are a totally different shade of purple. Is my color vision totally fucked? If so, it's the first I've noticed. gomi [ quoted text not captured ]

Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > In article <3D654C08...@removethis.com>, > Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote: > >The vampire backgrounds, Gomi. Just take a good long look at the > >backgrounds. You've got Brujah dark black violet, Malkavian mostly black > >with a tiny bit of yellow, Nosferatu dark black brown, Toreador black and > >dark pink, Tremere even darker black brown, and Ventrue so-much-of-it-is- > >black-I-can't-even-tell-what-the-other-color-is-and-black. Are we seeing > >a kind of a theme here? > > Wow. Are we looking at the same cards here? The Malks are like NEON > SCREAMING YELLOW -- only the black mottling saves them from Hidjousness. > Brujah are dark blue. Nos are like medium brown. Toreadoer are creamy > brown with no pink anywhere. Trem are purple, Ventrue are a totally > different shade of purple. Wow. Nope. My Malkavians are far more black with a bit of yellow peeping out here and there. Were it not for the texture of the black lines, I would have real problems telling Brujah, Malkavian, Tremere, and Ventrue apart. I thought my Toreador were pink and black because I was looking at them under yellow light and was mentally correcting for it. (And probably remembering the old Toreador colors.) Taking them outside under sunlight, it appears it's more a light orange than a pink. Not a brown under any circumstance, though. Well, that's strange. (Ian saw all my cards, by the way. You should show him yours and see what he thinks.) Fred

> Imagine if this was a new game, do you really think you > have done enough to sell it on its own? I doubt it, WE do > the work for you guys, treat us with more respect. Interesting question? I thought that CE was a whole new game? And people that liked VTES just happend to already know most of the rules? I wonder when they are going to put up the transcript so I can see what questions were/were not asked? -- Aaron The Nosferatu Stuff

[ quoted text not captured ] You'll probably like my question about what kind of Cereal do LSJ and Steve like, seeing as no hard questions were being addressed. I was amused when I typed it in anyway :-) BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

I'll add my support and agreement to you, as you seem to be taking some flak here. The cards really tend to all look the same, which I've complained about before... This is due not only to the colors, but the layout, which I'm still trying to like, but the more I play with them the less I like... One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the generally poor quality of the printing I've noticed so far. Why the flat finish to the cards instead of glossy? And many cards look particularly poor. Every time I pulled a Taste of Vitae I cringed, has this picture always looked so blurry? Many of the Vamps seem very cartoony, lending creedence to the idea that this is a "Portal" version of VTES. If that's the case, just say so, and go back to the dark, original version for subsequent "advanced" sets. I simply can't imagine these cartoony versions of most of the BL clans, for example. And while I'm at it, I'll add that while I really like a lot of the new artwork, a lot of it is just poor, and they should have stuck to the originals (Majesty, for example). And I really wish they'd used the Sabbat version of the Thau master, I've only got one of those. Just my 2 cents. Hey, it's only a game... Still love it!

>>Interesting question? I thought that CE was a whole new game? And people >>that liked VTES just happend to already know most of the rules? >> >>I wonder when they are going to put up the transcript so I can see what >>questions were/were not asked? >>-- >>Aaron >>The Nosferatu Stuff > >You'll probably like my question about what kind of Cereal do LSJ and >Steve like, seeing as no hard questions were being addressed. > >I was amused when I typed it in anyway :-) I didn't see that question. They must have filtered it out (and I suppose they'll do some "creative editing" on the final version). BTW: Did I mention that Conrad accused me of being argumentative? Remember when someone asked about the Lasombra Antitribu and LSJ replied that there aren't enough !Lasombra for them to be considered a clan? Well, being the smart-ass that I am, I followed with a question "Well, if there aren't enough Lasombra Antitribu to make them a clan, why is there a clan Salubri?" And then Conrad goes and IM's me and telling me how my question won't be asked because it's argumentative and how he wants to ensure that everyone has a "positive" experience at the chat! Hmmm... Halcyan 2

Geemarcus wrote: (sinp) > Many of the Vamps seem very cartoony, lending creedence to the idea > that this is a "Portal" version of VTES. I was thinking exactly the same thing when i saw some of the new nosferatu : the one with a hat and the barefoot 4 cap. Are they really vampires ? they look like orcs raiders or goblin scouts from another fantasy card game !!

In message <20020824000533...@mb-fy.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> writes: >BTW: Did I mention that Conrad accused me of being argumentative? Remember when >someone asked about the Lasombra Antitribu and LSJ replied that there aren't >enough !Lasombra for them to be considered a clan? Well, being the smart-ass >that I am, I followed with a question "Well, if there aren't enough Lasombra >Antitribu to make them a clan, why is there a clan Salubri?" Random answers: - that the Lasombra Antitribu are merely Lasombra who split off from the clan, rather than a whole tribe of them creating progeny as a self-sufficient sect - that it was felt Lasombra Antitribu childer should automatically be claimed back by the Lasombra clan and Sabbat sect (a new clan would have its own default sect, probably Independent or Camarilla) - that, as Bloodlines was marketed heavily as a "Here's lots of vampires you can screw around with but they aren't viable on their own", 'clans' of three or five vampires were felt appropriate for it. In a Normal Set (tm), clans would have to be viable on their own footing. ("Buy this new set to get a playable new clan! And, err, some not playable clans too! Erm, we're not sure what his is!") - extensive playtesting suggested that Salubri and !Salubri together would be unbalancing (e.g. 8 vampires counting for Consanguineous Boon) - that cards such as Blessing of the Name were already sketched in, and having another three vampires able to play it was considered detrimental to balance - that the clans Salubri and Salubri Antitribu are far more distinct than Lasombra and Lasombra Antitribu. The use of Valeren and Obeah, for instance, rather than identical clan disciplines - Sight Beyond Sight was felt to be balanced by it requiring, currently, vampires of 5, 6 or 7 capacity to bring out. Playing it on a two cap was felt unbalancing - that a significant downside for balacing the !Salubri is that they have to go outside of their own clan for any usable amount of superior Auspex and superior Fortitude -- James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D Don't just clap. What's the use of that? EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 You there, gorgeous creature. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D Stop...that...bus!

go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote in message news:<ak3lm7$c7k$1...@panix1.panix.com>... > Wow. Are we looking at the same cards here? The Malks are like NEON > SCREAMING YELLOW -- only the black mottling saves them from Hidjousness. > Brujah are dark blue. Nos are like medium brown. Toreadoer are creamy > brown with no pink anywhere. Trem are purple, Ventrue are a totally > different shade of purple. > > Is my color vision totally fucked? If so, it's the first I've noticed. > > gomi Erm...well. Put bluntly, the cones and rods in our eyes all differ. For me, all the cards looked almost identical. I'll postface with the fact that I'm color blind to an extent. Finally, I'll postface the previous statement with this: All the cards from V:TES on all STAND OUT. I can EASILY tell the Malks from the Brujah from the Tremere. I could EASILY tell the master cards from the action cards from the reaction cards. I reveled in the fact that most all of the cards were easily distinguishable from the others whether it was card type or vampire type. Hell...I even remember way back in my young days when first playing Magic. It was somewhat easy to tell red, blue, and black cards apart. NOW....now it's much more dificult for me to differentiate the cards apart in the Camarilla Edition. I was somewhat saddened at the effort I had to put forth in telling the vampires apart clan-wise cross table. This was a problem I never experienced before. And the master cards? I know you've heard this all before, but I'm adding to the discussion. I may be the minority with my vision disability but that isn't a small minority, I assure you. Where once I was extremely pleased with the ease of play and eye-friendliness of V:TES, now I'm somewhat discouraged with the cards. (As well as a noxious chemical odor from the cards... I posted something else about this already) I have to give a thumbs down to the design team when it comes to color for this Camarilla expansion. -Shawn D

> - Sight Beyond Sight was felt to be balanced by it requiring, currently, > vampires of 5, 6 or 7 capacity to bring out. Playing it on a > two cap was felt unbalancing Felt unbalancing? "The design team has a hunch that this might possibly be not fair so they changed it" I guess its true, these guys dont test anything. They just feel their way through. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <akaspm$1gqhi8$1...@ID-125246.news.dfncis.de>, Nosferatu Stuff [ quoted text not captured ] Certainly sounds like an interesting way to play V:TES. Blind Man's Buff, with scratch and sniff, and blood counters that are water (dyed red) in a little plastic bag. However, regarding Sight Beyond Sight, I'm not sure I'd like to see a clan of 8 vampires which can get free intercept on a 2 cap. That sounds almost like a fully playable clan, which very much wasn't the intent of much of Bloodlines, from where I stand. (And, for the record, my answers are entirely unofficial and random. I am not and was not a member of the Design Team, for Bloodlines or any other expansion.) [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Everyone who comments on CCG playtesting should see what it's actually like sometime. When done right, it's a tedious, unpaid job constrained at times by factors completely out of the playtesters' (and, sometimes, the designers' in the case of licensed games) control. Most frustrating activity I've ever done for a CCG company. (Art requests were less enjoyable but not as frustrating.) Do have to feel your way through at times because there aren't enough in house playtesters and the volunteer playtesters aren't professionals. I increasingly wonder how CCGs work as well as they do.

Halcyan 2 wrote: > someone asked about the Lasombra Antitribu and LSJ replied that there aren't > enough !Lasombra for them to be considered a clan? Well, being the smart-ass > that I am, I followed with a question "Well, if there aren't enough Lasombra > Antitribu to make them a clan, why is there a clan Salubri?" !Lasombra don't have enough numbers to justify making a new clan just for them when they work just fine as a sect-specified Lasombra (which is, after all, exactly what they are). Salubri, of course, are not this way. Salubri do have enough numbers (7, IIRC) in the WoD to justify being a new clan in VTES. If you disagree, pease state which previously-existing clan they should've been made a part of. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020824000533...@mb-fy.aol.com... > BTW: Did I mention that Conrad accused me of being argumentative? No, you didn't. Perhaps he said it because "you're a little abrasive"? :) Xian