[LSJ] Tier of Souls and allies

Can Tier of Souls target an ally ? some people in the playgroup said that it cannot as allies don't have blood, but life. Others said that whatever targets a minion's blood can target an ally's life. What really happens ? tzimisce dragon

tzimisce_dragon escreveu: [ quoted text not captured ] Indeed, allies don't have blood, but life. The only thing I'd risk saying about this right now is that allies won't lose life to the vampire acting with Tier of Souls. Allies ignore all "burn blood" effects entirely. [TOM 19960326] http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?selm=4j7dhm$k...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU The thing is that Tier talks about "a minion", not "a vampire". This could mean you can target an ally, but it ignores the "move blood" part and the acting minion gains the card and +1 bleed. I vaguely recall that the Cryptic Mission action targets the vampire/minion, not the counters in it, so it can be done on a vampire even if the target has no blood. So I'd rule Tier of Souls as explained above. Fabio "Sooner" Macedo

In message <1140957156....@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>, Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo <fabio....@gmail.com> writes: >tzimisce_dragon escreveu: > >> Can Tier of Souls target an ally ? >> some people in the playgroup said that >> it cannot as allies don't have blood, but life. >> Others said that whatever targets a minion's blood >> can target an ally's life. What really happens ? >> tzimisce dragon > >Indeed, allies don't have blood, but life. > >The only thing I'd risk saying about this right now is that allies >won't lose life to the vampire acting with Tier of Souls. Right, that follows from existing rulings on Jar the Soul. (I knew there was a card with the same problem, but it took me an age to find which one.) http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=rulings Jar the Soul: If an Ally is targeted, it will only be tapped - it will not lose a blood (life) even if the superior version is used. [RTR] Jar the Soul also targets "minion"s and causes a burn blood effect, but can (per the above ruling) clearly be played at superior for no additional effect against an ally. Tier of Souls will follow the same template. Cornercase action fun: You can use this to get +1 bleed against your prey by targeting their ally instead of one of their Sabbat vampires to circumvent the intercept they get from Communal Haven: Temple, for example. If this ever happens, let me know and I'll buy you both a drink. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

James Coupe wrote: > In message <1140957156....@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>, Fabio > 'Sooner' Macedo <fabio....@gmail.com> writes: >>tzimisce_dragon escreveu: >> >>> Can Tier of Souls target an ally ? >>> some people in the playgroup said that >>> it cannot as allies don't have blood, but life. >>> Others said that whatever targets a minion's blood >>> can target an ally's life. What really happens ? >>> tzimisce dragon >> >>Indeed, allies don't have blood, but life. >> >>The only thing I'd risk saying about this right now is that allies >>won't lose life to the vampire acting with Tier of Souls. > > Right, that follows from existing rulings on Jar the Soul. (I knew > there was a card with the same problem, but it took me an age to find > which one.) almost, but there is a difference. > > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=rulings > Jar the Soul: > If an Ally is targeted, it will only be tapped - it will not lose a > blood (life) even if the superior version is used. [RTR] > > Jar the Soul also targets "minion"s and causes a burn blood effect, but > can (per the above ruling) clearly be played at superior for no > additional effect against an ally. > > > Tier of Souls will follow the same template. Tier of souls: Move 1 blood from a minion controlled by your prey to this vampire. Move, not Burn. I'd say (and i am sure i recall lsj ruling, but i can't find) that it follows the 'steal blood' template. So, as with strikes, you steal a life off the ally. -- salem http://users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/vtes/ (replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)

In message <440215c5$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, Salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> writes: >Tier of souls: Move 1 blood from a minion controlled by your prey to >this vampire. > >Move, not Burn. > >I'd say (and i am sure i recall lsj ruling, but i can't find) that it >follows the 'steal blood' template. So, as with strikes, you steal a >life off the ally. You are, I assume, thinking of the ruling on Saulot: <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/8b4b9e e04fc3b241?hl=en&> *** That reads, to me, the same as what I said above -- you cannot choose to move just one, but when you choose 2 (the only choice) and have only one to move, then you move one. Much like stealing two blood. *** (The whole thread has other discussion, but this is the crux - that "move 2 blood" is similar to "steal 2 blood".) I don't believe that "much like" officially means "follow the same rules as", without a little extra help. In a tournament, without additional clarification, I'd feel bound to rule that it didn't affect allies for two reasons - it's move, not steal; and so many other cards specify life or blood. Of course, "mis- prints", missed intentions, and sloppy wordings abound, but I'd be reticent to rule that this was one off the cuff. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > In message <440215c5$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, Salem > <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> writes: >>Tier of souls: Move 1 blood from a minion controlled by your prey to >>this vampire. >> >>Move, not Burn. >> >>I'd say (and i am sure i recall lsj ruling, but i can't find) that it >>follows the 'steal blood' template. So, as with strikes, you steal a >>life off the ally. > > You are, I assume, thinking of the ruling on Saulot: actually, no.... :) i was thinking of a specific tier of souls ruling. i'm sure i've seen this before. maybe it was a private ruling. i'll check my mailboxes. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe escreveu: > In message <1140957156....@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>, Fabio > 'Sooner' Macedo <fabio....@gmail.com> writes: > Right, that follows from existing rulings on Jar the Soul. (I knew > there was a card with the same problem, but it took me an age to find > which one.) And what a shame for me - Jar the Soul should've been the first card I'd mention on this issue, as Giovanni Newsletter Editor and all :-) Fabio "Sooner" Macedo

"Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo" <fabio....@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1141053968.6...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] well, i was aware of this ruling before i asked this question. i understand what you are all saying and i thank you, but i still consider that my question has not been completely answered, yet. Well, not officialy. Ok with "steal blood" and "burn blood", i am asking about the "move blood" of tier of souls.... so, what does really happen ???????? no life lost and acting minion wears the card and gets the +1 bleed ? cannot target allies, what ???

tzimisce_dragon escreveu: [ quoted text not captured ] I don't think the fact that it says "move blood" instead of "steal" or "burn" makes any difference. The reasoning behind that ruling on Jar the Soul (and Cryptic Mission) is that the action targets the minion, not the counters. So I believe it shouldn't matter if its a theft, a moving or a burn of life or blood counters - the target is the minion. Since all these three cards can be played on a minion - their texts clearly say "minion" - you should be able to play Tier of Souls on an ally and gain +1 bleed if it passes, and the ally doesn't lose life. If you want to wait for LSJ to answer, that's fine - there's always something that James or I could've missed. But I wouldn't sweat over it. Fabio "Sooner" Macedo

Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo wrote: > The reasoning behind that ruling on Jar the Soul (and Cryptic Mission) > is that the action targets the minion, not the counters. So I believe > it shouldn't matter if its a theft, a moving or a burn of life or blood > counters - the target is the minion. Since all these three cards can be > played on a minion - their texts clearly say "minion" - you should be > able to play Tier of Souls on an ally and gain +1 bleed if it passes, i agree all the way down to that bit. > and the ally doesn't lose life. this i disagree with. there's a ruling that allies ignore 'burn blood' effects. there is no such parallel ruling for 'move blood' effects. [ quoted text not captured ]

Salem escreveu: > Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo wrote: > > > The reasoning behind that ruling on Jar the Soul (and Cryptic Mission) > > is that the action targets the minion, not the counters. So I believe > > it shouldn't matter if its a theft, a moving or a burn of life or blood > > counters - the target is the minion. Since all these three cards can be > > played on a minion - their texts clearly say "minion" - you should be > > able to play Tier of Souls on an ally and gain +1 bleed if it passes, > > i agree all the way down to that bit. > > > and the ally doesn't lose life. > this i disagree with. there's a ruling that allies ignore 'burn blood' > effects. there is no such parallel ruling for 'move blood' effects. Of course, LSJ can get back and issue any ruling he find appropriate about "move blood" effects that is not akin to "burn blood" effects. It just happens I don't think there's any *need* to treat Tier of Souls in a different way ;-) Of course, this is ultimately a debate on designer's intent, which only LSJ can rule about. But personally, I see these rulings on "steal" or "burn blood" as ways to emphasize that life is one thing and blood is other - so you need explicit cardtext, errata or rule/ruling to be able to affect both equally with the same effect. The "steal blood" strikes work differently as stated in the rulebook, yes, but it has been probably so Thaumaturgy doesn't suck even more ;-) (just kidding) Fabio "Sooner" Macedo

In message <4405...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, Salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> writes: >this i disagree with. there's a ruling that allies ignore 'burn blood' >effects. there is no such parallel ruling for 'move blood' effects. Does there need to be? Allies don't have blood. Vampires without blood would ignore a move blood or burn blood effect. Why wouldn't vampires without blood do the same? The only reason allies are vulnerable to "steal blood" is because there's a very specific part of the rulebook on that. Would you need a ruling to prevent allies being susceptible to "Take three blood counters from the opposing minion and juggle with them for a laugh"? [ quoted text not captured ]

tzimisce_dragon wrote: > Ok with "steal blood" and "burn blood", i am asking about the "move blood" > of tier of souls.... so, what does really happen ???????? > no life lost and acting minion wears the card and gets the +1 bleed ? Exactly correct. Tier of Souls may target an ally (any minion). The "move blood" effect will have no effect, since the ally has no blood to move. The acting vampire wears the card and gets +1 bleed. -- That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet. Keep a little and let a little come back to me. LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/