Storyline Tournaments -- more on my plate plz

I know I'm just a small time player since the creation of this game, but I am enjoying the re-population of jyhad/vtes players since this is one of the more intelligent card games that exist. However, I truly hope this game won't end up like magic the gathering. I quit that game and sold all my cards long time ago because it became too commercial and very anti-economically challenged folks. That's one of the many reasons I love this game, because a 10 year old kid can buy a pre-constructed deck, and play with ppl, and knowing without many money sought out cards, he/she can still win the table with shrewd insights and manipulative influence. I really enjoy the storyline tournaments, and wish there were more planned yearly. By doing more storyline tournaments, you're encouraging ppl to play more because everyone wants to leave his/her name in this game. I think that's more important than finding out who's deck is more lethal and what not. So.. I have a few personal ideas that might be interested for all you Methuselahs.. and all inputs and other ideas are very very welcomed as well... :) 1. Have personal player images illustrated by artists on promos for those that helped won their clan's interest. 2. Comic book series based on the tournament results with characters of the players names (ok.. a bit far fetched and unreal, but..). 3. Clans that rarely win the tournaments can be considered the next clan expansions of revolts, anarchy, etc.. that way ppl will play more of those clans and make a change. 4. Have cards like vissitude poisoning that aggravatively targets certain clans to cover more clans instead of just one.. so that ppl will ACTUALLY use those cards instead for coasters or mini frizbee. What do you all think? :) ---DeistMutts---

psydu...@hotmail.com (DeistMutts) wrote in message news:<a3baa2e3.0306...@posting.google.com>... > I know I'm just a small time player since the creation of this game, > but I am enjoying the re-population of jyhad/vtes players since this > is one of the more intelligent card games that exist. However, I truly > hope this game won't end up like magic the gathering. I quit that game > and sold all my cards long time ago because it became too commercial > and very anti-economically challenged folks. Hmmm... well VTES is still produced by a large, professional company. However, the difference is they realise that the market for them is in new cards, no the seconds markets. Hence many reprints which are great. But make no mistake, this is for the company's benefit, not the fan. That's one of the many > reasons I love this game, because a 10 year old kid can buy a > pre-constructed deck, and play with ppl, and knowing without many > money sought out cards, he/she can still win the table with shrewd > insights and manipulative influence. I really enjoy the storyline > tournaments, and wish there were more planned yearly. 2 a year is plenty, else we will become too commercial - much like Muppet: The Gibleting. By doing more > storyline tournaments, you're encouraging ppl to play more because > everyone wants to leave his/her name in this game. I think that's more > important than finding out who's deck is more lethal and what not. > So.. I have a few personal ideas that might be interested for all you > Methuselahs.. and all inputs and other ideas are very very welcomed as > well... :) > > 1. Have personal player images illustrated by artists on promos for > those that helped won their clan's interest. Already done. Adonai, and Egotha are two off the top of my head that have pictures of players who have "done well". I think Andreas Nusser has a Toreador with his image on too... > 2. Comic book series based on the tournament results with characters > of the players names (ok.. a bit far fetched and unreal, but..). There was a V:TM comic series that ran briefly. I don't know if it still is. If the "regular" comic failed, I doubt it would work as a promotional concept. > 3. Clans that rarely win the tournaments can be considered the next > clan expansions of revolts, anarchy, etc.. that way ppl will play more > of those clans and make a change. We've started to see this creep in: See Fiendish Tongue. To be honest, I think this is a BAD idea. If a clan is good enough to get a majority number of wins, then surely it doesn't NEED another bonus, it needs a clan hoser! Tzimisce are possibly the most powerful of all clans since they have had little to no detriment to their crypt cards brought on by the Grouping system - and their clan is virtually unique in the fact their "staple" vampies are cost effective and discipline effective (Corrine, Devin, Meshenka, Dragos, Sasha, Lambach, Caiban, Stravinski, Little Tailor, etc). Also, none of "their" best cards have been errated recently - Horrid Form, Carrion Crows, DotB, War Ghoul, Revenant, etc. Plus they have had 2 great cards drop in their lap (Read the Winds and Jake Washington). > 4. Have cards like vissitude poisoning that aggravatively targets > certain clans to cover more clans instead of just one.. so that ppl > will ACTUALLY use those cards instead for coasters or mini frizbee. No. Clan hosers are there for flavour, NOT to be powercards. Let's not be Magic, eh? DH

hamdamcwa wrote: [snip] > That's one of the many >> reasons I love this game, because a 10 year old kid can buy a >> pre-constructed deck, and play with ppl, and knowing without many >> money sought out cards, he/she can still win the table with shrewd >> insights and manipulative influence. I really enjoy the storyline >> tournaments, and wish there were more planned yearly. > > 2 a year is plenty, else we will become too commercial - much like > Muppet: The Gibleting. IMO 2 a year is too many as well but there you go. [snip] >> 3. Clans that rarely win the tournaments can be considered the next >> clan expansions of revolts, anarchy, etc.. that way ppl >> will play more >> of those clans and make a change. > > We've started to see this creep in: See Fiendish Tongue. > To be honest, > I think this is a BAD idea. If a clan is good enough to > get a majority > number of wins, then surely it doesn't NEED another bonus, it needs a > clan hoser! Tzimisce are possibly the most powerful of all > clans since > they have had little to no detriment to their crypt cards brought on > by the Grouping system - and their clan is virtually unique in the > fact their "staple" vampies are cost effective and discipline > effective (Corrine, Devin, Meshenka, Dragos, Sasha, Lambach, Caiban, > Stravinski, Little Tailor, etc). Also, none of "their" > best cards have > been errated recently - Horrid Form, Carrion Crows, DotB, War Ghoul, > Revenant, etc. Plus they have had 2 great cards drop in their lap > (Read the Winds and Jake Washington) Here here Dave, could not agree more with your arguments here (for a change :o) Why do already strong clans keep getting rewarded? What next? The game _has_ shifted but at least the Ventrue (pre-kicking) regarded by some as the strongest clan *0* in the game were pretty damn focussed at doing prey in. The Tzimisce, much boosted and possibly one of the two strongest clans nowadays lend themselves a lot more to wall and block type decks. 0. Maybe the Lasombra have now taken this Mantle??? Hmmmm any opinions on top 3 'strongest' clans at the moment? Rob -- Direct access to this group with http://web2news.com http://web2news.com/?rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

> 1. Have personal player images illustrated by artists on promos for > those that helped won their clan's interest. See Egotha, Adonai, Xaviar, and possibly Cohn Rose > 2. Comic book series based on the tournament results with characters > of the players names (ok.. a bit far fetched and unreal, but..). That maybe what the Vampire comics are based on, who knows..... > 3. Clans that rarely win the tournaments can be considered the next > clan expansions of revolts, anarchy, etc.. that way ppl will play more > of those clans and make a change. All clans get supported in all sets, which is pretty nice considering how many clans we have. > 4. Have cards like vissitude poisoning that aggravatively targets > certain clans to cover more clans instead of just one.. so that ppl > will ACTUALLY use those cards instead for coasters or mini frizbee. I think that clan hosers are a bad thing. Their effectiveness varies wildly from the hideously overpowered Out of Control to the ineffective Bestial Visage. Please no more hosers! -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, robtreasure wrote: > 0. Maybe the Lasombra have now taken this Mantle??? Hmmmm any opinions > on top 3 'strongest' clans at the moment? 1. Ventrue 2. Malkavians 3. Lasombra Nothing particularly shocking there, but you asked. The only one worth commenting on, I believe, are the Ventrue. I've heard/read from several people that the Ventrue are de-throned because +1 stealth just doesn't cut it in today's metagame. Others are happy (or frustrated) that Obfuscate has become more accessible to them. IMO, the good old Law Firm is still as strong as it ever was. They key, I think, is to go with a PILE of Freak Drives, have every action in the deck solidly tier one, and accept that a healthy fraction of your actions will be blocked. With FOR and PRE, and a side helping of Restorations to keep the Freaks up /anyway/, getting blocked should pose no threat to your minions. In fact, it accidently generates a 'tap and X' strategy to mitigate the lack of uber-stealth. Personally, I refuse to play with mold, but Matt Guinn's winning Ventrue deck from the Atlanta qualifier was built along these lines. David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 david.che...@duke.edu

>See Egotha, Adonai, Xaviar, and possibly Cohn Rose Which players are these who were lucky enough to get their faces on cards? ------------------------- Cambridge by Night. http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html

"Colin Goodman" <colind...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030609114748...@mb-m01.aol.com... > >See Egotha, Adonai, Xaviar, and possibly Cohn Rose > > Which players are these who were lucky enough to get their faces on cards? Egotha is Steve Coombs who won a tournament that Steve Wieck promised the winner would be on a card after WW took over VTES prior to Sabbat War being printed Adonai is Jeff Thompson who is the Lasombra Xavier is Robert Goudie, VKEN Grand Poo-Bah. Cohn Rose is possibly Christian Herro, Tremere Newsletter writer. [ quoted text not captured ]

David Cherryholmes wrote: >>top 3 'strongest' clans at the moment? > > 1. Ventrue > 2. Malkavians > 3. Lasombra > > Nothing particularly shocking there, but you asked. The > only one worth > commenting on, I believe, are the Ventrue. I've > heard/read from several > people that the Ventrue are de-throned because +1 stealth > just doesn't cut > it in today's metagame. I think its more of a broad spectrum thing for me and a few likeminded thinkers. By that I mean the following in some sort of order of importance: 5th errata. Ouch, this hurt the Ventrue a hell of a lot, both in terms of speed and blood/pool gain and combat defence. Change to 5th has seen it move to relative obscurity because of function and utility. FAR to harsh a change as has been much debated elsewhere. Hostile errata. Again ouch. Whilst very probably at the top of the power curve it is a LOT less useful now. Still good but does not have the clout it did especially as the metagame is being 'encouraged' toward high pointers. Probably for the best TBH but you cannot deny that the Ventrue have lost maybe 10-20% of their forward power just because of this. 2nd Trad errata. The one point cost whilst seemingly reasonable for the usefulness of the card does make for less blood on minions in a lot of Ventrue decks. 2nd was [still is] a staple (6-10 copies in a deck) card of many typical Ventrue decks. Figuring costs into a new deck you look at 2nd and add up the cost along with newMajesty, Freak, Skin of Steel, Superior Mettle etc etc etc and NOT having 5th to tool up again the deck begins to look very ugly indeed. Majesty errata. Again probably needed but unintentionally or not coupled with 5th change has led to a lot less blood being available to the Ventrue same as 2nd. Cat. Fear errata. see above. ToGP errata. Again probably needed and less useful to the Ventrue deck with easy access to Hostile but they had possibly the easiest Justicar vote to pass and thus good scope for easy access to medium quantities of this card which as we all know had HUGE forward pressure. It's mostly this lot really that has done them in from my point of view. I consider myself a fairly decent judge of power levels and there is no way the Ventrue are #1 anymore.. not even close. > Others are happy (or frustrated) > that Obfuscate > has become more accessible to them. IMO, the good old Law > Firm is still > as strong as it ever was. They key, I think, is to go with a PILE of > Freak Drives, have every action in the deck solidly tier > one, and accept > that a healthy fraction of your actions will be blocked. > With FOR and > PRE, and a side helping of Restorations to keep the Freaks > up /anyway/, > getting blocked should pose no threat to your minions. In fact, it > accidently generates a 'tap and X' strategy to mitigate the lack of > uber-stealth. Personally, I refuse to play with mold, but > Matt Guinn's > winning Ventrue deck from the Atlanta qualifier was built along these > lines. I'll have a peek and comment later, got to go home now :o) [ quoted text not captured ]

On 09 Jun 2003 15:47:48 GMT, colind...@aol.com (Colin Goodman) wrote: >>See Egotha, Adonai, Xaviar, and possibly Cohn Rose >Which players are these who were lucky enough to get their faces on cards? No idea on Xaviar and Cohn Rose. Andreas Nusser appears as Emerson Wilkershire III. Steve Coombs appears as Egottha. Jeffrey Thompson appears as Adonai. A player from Seattle appears as Raven, but I don't remember her name, she won a raffle to have her picture on the card to replace Camille Devereux. Stephanie Seymour appears as Camille Devereux, without her permission, or the permission of Fredricks of Hollywood. I don't have any proof that she has ever played the game. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

>4. Have cards like vissitude poisoning that aggravatively targets >certain clans to cover more clans instead of just one.. so that ppl >will ACTUALLY use those cards instead for coasters or mini frizbee. Hosers that don't see play are a waste of cardboard. Hosers that do see play highlight flaws in CCGs. Rather than make hosers that will see play, why not just stop making hosers?

[ quoted text not captured ] And Lord Ashton is Greyseer (sorry, I don't know his real name)

>Hmmmm any opinions >on top 3 'strongest' clans at the moment? An attempt at gauging based on looking around: 1. Malks 2. Tzimisce 3. Lasombra Personal opinion: The four top clans are Malks, !Malks, Lasombra, and Tzimisce in a not obvious order except Malks are obviously first. Ventrue are just outside of this group. More personal opinion: Cammie clans see more play and, thus, get more wins for popularity reasons that don't necessarily have anything to do with quality of decks possible.

On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, robtreasure wrote: > I'll have a peek and comment later, got to go home now :o) Peek if you like, but I just had a look myself and he only has four freak drives in there. I still stand by what I said, but his deck isn't an example of it. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 9 Jun 2003, Curevei wrote: > More personal opinion: Cammie clans see more play and, thus, get more wins for > popularity reasons that don't necessarily have anything to do with quality of > decks possible. Or, it could be that because the Cam clans are more powerful, more people play them. It could go either way, and probably does so for different players. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message news:20030609132532...@mb-m12.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] 'Cause its something to print? I don't know... I can say this...every bloody storyline deck should mandatory include a Detection and Vicissitude Poisoning. ;)

Jozxyqk wrote: > The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>Andreas Nusser appears as Emerson Wilkershire III. >>Steve Coombs appears as Egottha. >>Jeffrey Thompson appears as Adonai. >>A player from Seattle appears as Raven, but I don't remember her name, >>she won a raffle to have her picture on the card to replace Camille >>Devereux. > >>Stephanie Seymour appears as Camille Devereux, without her permission, >>or the permission of Fredricks of Hollywood. I don't have any proof >>that she has ever played the game. LOL! > And Lord Ashton is Greyseer (sorry, I don't know his real name) Matt Barnett (aka Greyseer). Shawn F. Carnes appears as Enzo Giovanni. He used to play, but I don't believe he does any more. Dan Smith appears as Nik. I'm pretty sure he's played once or twice. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:<ve91nla...@corp.supernews.com>... > > 1. Have personal player images illustrated by artists on promos for > > those that helped won their clan's interest. > > See Egotha, Adonai, Xaviar, and possibly Cohn Rose > Egottha uses the image of Steve Coombs, winner of the DragonCon 2000 VTEs tournament (from a Jost/Marijava Ghoul deck hobbled together by Steve, myself, and Jose Lafuente the night before). Adonai uses the image of Jeff "The Lasombra" Thompson. I belive that he won at Origins that same year, but I may have the wrong tourney... Lasombra? Norm, who got the images for Xaviar and Cohn Rose? DaveZ Atom Weaver

> Norm, who got the images for Xaviar and Cohn Rose? The word on the street is that Xaviar is Robert Goudie and Cohn Rose is Christian Herro, but then again I am a VTES scandalmonger. Kind of like the time that David Cherryholmes had too much to drink..... ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3EE4E280...@white-wolf.com... > Jozxyqk wrote: > > And Lord Ashton is Greyseer (sorry, I don't know his real name) > > Matt Barnett (aka Greyseer). > > Shawn F. Carnes appears as Enzo Giovanni. He used to play, but I don't > believe he does any more. > > Dan Smith appears as Nik. I'm pretty sure he's played once or twice. Hey, this reminds me of the possibly-apocryphal story that in the original Jyhad set, they got a bunch of the artists to do vampire portraits of other artists working on the set. According to this legend, Melissa Barton is based on Melissa Benson, Anson is based on Anson Maddocks, and so on. I think the names of the vamps were supposed to correspond like that (initials or entire names matching those of the artist/model). Scott, you might actually know (or be able to find out) if this is true...? Josh i see pictures of people

Curevei wrote: > An attempt at gauging based on looking around: > 1. Malks The Malks are really powerful, unless combat is prevelant, in which case they are bulk meat. > 2. Tzimisce I simply don't see them all that useful as a clan--they are kinda like the Gangrel, but with a +1 bleed card, and the Gangrel aren't that good. The Tzimisce are real good at being a brutal wall, but their forawrd momentum always seems lacking. If only Liz Wescott has presence. Then things would have been different... > 3. Lasombra Meh. They are kind of like the Ventrue, but they swap strong combat defense for strong combat offense, which doesn't really help them do the things they are actually good at--bleeding and voting. I'd probably go with: -Ventrue (still) -Malk/!Malk (a viable classic) -Brujah/!Bru (actually good at lots of different stuff) Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6 "My health is failing me, so I flip on the television, and watch sad movies and look for sad, sick people like me." -Tegan and Sara

> The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Jeffrey Thompson appears as Adonai. > Its bad karma to refer to yourself in the third person, Jeff... It puts you in the same category as many professional wrestlers, and Bob Dole. DaveZ Atom Weaver

cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20030609133206...@mb-m12.aol.com>... > >Hmmmm any opinions > >on top 3 'strongest' clans at the moment? > > An attempt at gauging based on looking around: > 1. Malks > 2. Tzimisce > 3. Lasombra > > Personal opinion: The four top clans are Malks, !Malks, Lasombra, and Tzimisce > in a not obvious order except Malks are obviously first. Ventrue are just > outside of this group. Here are the Clan results of the VTES Survey I conducted earlier this year: CLANS SORTED BY SURVEY AVERAGE CLANS Survey AVG Discipline AVG AVG DEV AVG DEV Ventrue 4.3 0.6 4.3 0.5 Malkavian 4.2 0.7 3.9 0.6 Lasombra 3.9 0.5 3.9 0.5 Toreador 3.6 0.7 3.6 0.6 Malkavian antitribu 3.5 0.7 3.2 0.6 Tzimisce 3.5 0.8 3.2 0.6 Brujah 3.4 0.8 3.6 0.6 Tremere 3.1 0.8 3.7 0.6 Toreador antitribu 3.1 0.4 3.6 0.6 Giovanni 2.9 0.5 3.6 0.5 Tremere antitribu 2.9 0.6 3.7 0.6 Followers of Set 2.9 0.7 3.5 0.5 Ravnos 2.9 0.6 3.2 0.6 Brujah antitribu 2.8 0.7 3.6 0.6 Nosferatu 2.7 0.7 3.5 0.6 Gangrel 2.7 0.6 3.3 0.7 Nosferatu antitribu 2.4 0.7 3.5 0.6 Gangrel antitribu 2.3 0.8 3.5 0.7 Assamites 2.2 0.8 2.9 0.5 Ventrue antitribu 2.2 0.6 4.0 0.6 I'm kind of surprised that Nosferatu and Gangrel as so low on the list. Granted, both ought to be lower than other Camarilla clans, but the Gangrel have access to Fortitude which should count for something. They lack speed, but if they get going they are extremely resilient. Looking at the TWD Archive, there have been 7 (!!) Tremere decks win in 2003. A couple other power clans have 5 wins, but most are around 3.

cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20030609133206...@mb-m12.aol.com>... > >Hmmmm any opinions > >on top 3 'strongest' clans at the moment? > > An attempt at gauging based on looking around: > 1. Malks > 2. Tzimisce > 3. Lasombra > > Personal opinion: The four top clans are Malks, !Malks, Lasombra, and Tzimisce > in a not obvious order except Malks are obviously first. Ventrue are just > outside of this group. Why?, the appeared to be very good at Hazimel's storyline, and they are one of the clans with the most powerful disciplines (Dominate and pressence are v4ery often used in tournament decks (ventrue, malk, toreador, euro brujah, even ressence Lasombra decks... and also the possiblity to overwhelm with the FD is quite handy). My personal opinion of strongest clans is: 1. Ventrue 2. Lasombra / Malkavian (personally prefer old school dom/obf rather than dem) 3. Tzimisce 4. !Toreador (this is just 'cuase they are so flexible that allow you to do everything: Art scam + palla grande are just too great and terrible) Greetings, Iñaki, Prince of Barcelona.-

On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:05:11 -0600, "XZealot" wrote: >Cohn Rose is possibly Christian Herro, Tremere Newsletter writer. You are in so much trouble, Norm. :P I'm pretty sure Cohn Rose was in no way modelled after me; that's just a vicious rumor that Kevin has been spreading. Xian

On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 15:08:23 -0600, "XZealot" wrote: >The word on the street is that Xaviar is Robert Goudie and If anyone, I think Xaviar looks like Chad B., formerly of Atlanta. But that could just be my impression. > Cohn Rose is Christian Herro, The word on the street in Kevin's mind. Xian

On 9 Jun 2003 13:02:15 -0700, guenh...@mindspring.com (atomweaver) wrote: >Adonai uses the image of Jeff "The Lasombra" Thompson. I belive that >he won at Origins that same year, but I may have the wrong tourney... >Lasombra? To get my picture on the card, I won a Sabbat draft tournament at DragonCon. I also took 2nd place in the event Steve Coombs won. I had given up on the prize after both Sabbat War and Final Nights had come out and we hadn't appeared. I was really hoping to be Talley the Hound or Moncada, but you see the real me on Adonai, so it worked out. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Rather than make hosers that will see play, why not just stop making > hosers? > > 'Cause its something to print? I don't know... > > I can say this...every bloody storyline deck should mandatory include a > Detection and Vicissitude Poisoning. ;) > I guess that some vicissitude poisoning might be compulsory in every storyline deck, specially for this one. Even if you are going to play tzimis. Until the CE, i'd always put a Cultivated Blood Shotage in every tournament deck i build. I simply hate ventrue lawfirms. After the changes of CE, I 've seen no need to use a card slot with this, unless in the cryptic mission deck, obvioulsy, along with a couple of fear of mekhet. Some local players say that I'm a bit sick upon this. Well, that might be sure. I've burned every arika that appeared in my dark sovereigns decks, and exchanged every ventrue i've got, except hrothulf. And for the sake of irony, I won last year's conclave, in palma, and thus held the ventrue justicar title until july. Whenever i remember it, some kind of eschizophrenia cuts my breath. Smiling tom, anarch

In message <621dd332.03060...@posting.google.com>, Jeff Kuta <jeff...@hotmail.com> writes: >I'm kind of surprised that Nosferatu and Gangrel as so low on the >list. Granted, both ought to be lower than other Camarilla clans, but >the Gangrel have access to Fortitude which should count for something. I'd note that, of the Camarilla clans, the Ventrue have Dominate, the Tremere have Dominate and Auspex, some of the Malkavians have Dominate and both versions have Auspex, the Toreador have Auspex... The Brujah don't follow this pattern, but some of their more popular vampires include the Euro Brujah, Theo Bell etc. Quite a bit of Dominate, if you choose to exploit it. (It's certainly useful to try.) Of course, the Brujah may not follow the same pattern. The Nosferatu and the Gangrel have no reliable access to bounce, really. (Details below.) The others do. As a result, I'd expect the results to be skewed by those people whose responses are shifted towards "I play this clan because I can win with this clan." Not that it's impossible to win with Gangrel or Nosferatu, of course - but lacking bounce is certainly a reason to *think* about playing something else, when turning up to a tournament or something. The Gangrel have four vampires with dom/DOM - Iliana, Faruq, Ingrid, Stansilvania, 7, 8, 9, 11. I don't rate Faruq that high, and I think Ingrid is a little too expensive these days. They have no-one with AUS. When looking to play Aus and upgrade it, only Gunther existed earlier this year - and he's another vampire I don't rate *that* highly. Though a burn blood so you can get an action and a bounce wouldn't be so bad. There are now 4 new vampires with Aus, but they wouldn't have impacted on a much earlier survey. Dom/DOM wise, the Nosferatu have Laurent de Valois (pretty pants), Judah (really pants) and Hey Hey It's Marty Lechtansi! (This deck only works if Marty Lechtansi comes out.) A smattering of inferior Auspex, with a fair bit of it turning up in the Camarilla Edition, but you need to upgrade that, though you do get Regilio who might help out. *shrug* However, of the vampires who were around before the Camarilla Edition, Sebastian Marley is poor, Sheldon (AUS!) is rather good, and Lucretia and Harrod are both usually too expensive for what they are. Compare and contrast the Ventrue - who get lots of dom anyway; the Tremere - who get lots of dom and AUS anyway; the Toreador who get a fair bit of AUS, and quite *cheap* AUS too (bearing in mind the tapping element of Telepathic Misdirection); the Malkavians, who get a fair smattering of AUS and dom/DOM, and there's even some dominate knocking around the neo-Malks, for help; and the Brujah who get Anvil, Constanza Vinti, Donal O' Conor and Theo Bell with Dominate - four VERY solid vampires. Of course, any of the Auspex players can play Telepathic Counter too - which doesn't help out the Gangrel or the Nosferatu much anyway, with so few vampires to use even inferior Auspex. Thinking random defensive competitive thoughts, -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3EE4E280...@white-wolf.com>... > Jozxyqk wrote: > > The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>Andreas Nusser appears as Emerson Wilkershire III. > >>Steve Coombs appears as Egottha. > >>Jeffrey Thompson appears as Adonai. > >>A player from Seattle appears as Raven, but I don't remember her name, > >>she won a raffle to have her picture on the card to replace Camille > >>Devereux. > > >>Stephanie Seymour appears as Camille Devereux, without her permission, > >>or the permission of Fredricks of Hollywood. I don't have any proof > >>that she has ever played the game. > > LOL! > > > And Lord Ashton is Greyseer (sorry, I don't know his real name) > > Matt Barnett (aka Greyseer). > > Shawn F. Carnes appears as Enzo Giovanni. He used to play, but I don't > believe he does any more. > > Dan Smith appears as Nik. I'm pretty sure he's played once or twice. A quick search of the newsgroup also reveals that Leon has the face of someone named Jason Carl: > I'm also Leon the Gangrel from The Sabbat expansion. A miserable 2 >Blood, how embarassing... sad, isn't it? ;-) > >Sincerely yours, > > >Jason Carl >DCI Policy Director >Wizards of the Coast ----- Khervin

James Coupe wrote: > Dom/DOM wise, the Nosferatu have Laurent de Valois (pretty pants), Judah > (really pants) and Hey Hey It's Marty Lechtansi! (This deck only works > if Marty Lechtansi comes out.) See--it all becomes clear as to *why* the deck only worked when Marty Lechtansi came out... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:17:39 GMT, TheLa...@hotmail.com (The Lasombra) wrote: >>Which players are these who were lucky enough to get their faces on cards? http://www.thelasombra.com/lists/players_on_cards.txt Anyone with proof of others, let me know. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com/cardlists.htm

Xian <xi...@visi.nospam.com> wrote in news:n74aev0ju99ts0p1n...@4ax.com: > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 15:08:23 -0600, "XZealot" wrote: > >>The word on the street is that Xaviar is Robert Goudie and > > If anyone, I think Xaviar looks like Chad B., formerly of Atlanta. > But that could just be my impression. > Funny, I was opening Anarch cards with someone, either one of the Dallas or Houston playgroups, and someone mentioned that Xaviar looked like him, so I guess it's not just you. --Andrew

>Hey, this reminds me of the possibly-apocryphal story that in >the original Jyhad set, they got a bunch of the artists to do >vampire portraits of other artists working on the set. >According to this legend, Melissa Barton is based on Melissa >Benson, Anson is based on Anson Maddocks, and so on. I think >the names of the vamps were supposed to correspond like that >(initials or entire names matching those of the artist/model). Only problem is that Melissa Benson did the art for Melissa Barton. So unless you have alternate personas and split personalities doing pictures of each other, I don't think someone *else* did her picture. Of course I was always under the impression it was a sort of self-portrait. Maybe that's an urban legend too? Halcyan 2 jeff, you should start a VTES Urban Legends page on your web-site!!!

>>Cohn Rose is possibly Christian Herro, Tremere Newsletter writer. > >You are in so much trouble, Norm. :P > >I'm pretty sure Cohn Rose was in no way modelled after me; that's just >a vicious rumor that Kevin has been spreading. Personally I don't really see a resemblance. Plus, on a different note, Cohn Rose has such a *horrible*, *ugly* picture! Yuck! You know, Cohn is actually supposed to be *good-looking* (and I actually do really like his picture from D.C. By Night). But Alejandro Collucci just has to mangle things up. Just how he makes poor Lille Haake look like some old hag! Lucas and Lana aren't all that, either. =( So what's up with this "vicious rumor" that Kevin is spreadin'? =) Halcyan 2

> I simply don't see them all that useful as a clan--they are kinda like the > Gangrel, but with a +1 bleed card, and the Gangrel aren't that good. The > Tzimisce are real good at being a brutal wall, but their forawrd momentum > always seems lacking. I agree 100%. Whilst the result of last year's storyline might fly in the face of this opinion, I've never seen a Tzimisce deck that impressed me. They block. They're pretty scrappy in a tussle, but have very little to combat SCE, and choke on Fortitude. They can't vote, they can't bleed, they can't lunge. noodleboy

>The Gangrel have four vampires with dom/DOM - Iliana, Faruq, Ingrid, >Stansilvania, 7, 8, 9, 11. I don't rate Faruq that high, and I think >Ingrid is a little too expensive these days. They have no-one with AUS. >When looking to play Aus and upgrade it, only Gunther existed earlier >this year - and he's another vampire I don't rate *that* highly. Though >a burn blood so you can get an action and a bounce wouldn't be so bad. Hey there James, don't you be dissin' my man Gunther! Gunther was one of my first favorite vampires! (Of course I don't get quite as pissed as compared to people dissin' my lady Cassandra). In addition, it's just so cute how Gunther is taking care of that adorable little owl! Awwww... >Dom/DOM wise, the Nosferatu have Laurent de Valois (pretty pants), Judah >(really pants) and Hey Hey It's Marty Lechtansi! (This deck only works >if Marty Lechtansi comes out.) But Marty has a Mickey Mouse watch! < snip rest of excellent analysis > Halcyan 2

>An attempt at gauging based on looking around: >1. Malks >2. Tzimisce >3. Lasombra > >Personal opinion: The four top clans are Malks, !Malks, Lasombra, and >Tzimisce >in a not obvious order except Malks are obviously first. Ventrue are just >outside of this group. Just want to say that I agree with this assessment. Overall, I think Malks, Lasombra, Tzimisce, and Ventrue (not necessarily in that order though) are the strongest clans. Also, it might be significant to note that for the longest time, Malkavian Dementia has been one of the few clan hosers that has been actively played in several decks. Halcyan 2

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:ve9c2hh...@corp.supernews.com... > > "Colin Goodman" <colind...@aol.com> wrote in message > news:20030609114748...@mb-m01.aol.com... > > >See Egotha, Adonai, Xaviar, and possibly Cohn Rose > > > > Which players are these who were lucky enough to get their faces on cards? > > Egotha is Steve Coombs who won a tournament that Steve Wieck promised the > winner would be on a card after WW took over VTES prior to Sabbat War being > printed > > Adonai is Jeff Thompson who is the Lasombra > > Xavier is Robert Goudie, VKEN Grand Poo-Bah. LOL. Cut it out Swampy. However, I did hear I was gonna be the Advanced Xavier-- he's going to have a beer gut and some serious balding. -Robert -- Robert Goudie Chairman, V:EKN rob...@vtesinla.org

In message <njnaevooplj2c1qui...@4ax.com>, The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes: >On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:17:39 GMT, TheLa...@hotmail.com (The >Lasombra) wrote: >>>Which players are these who were lucky enough to get their faces on cards? > >http://www.thelasombra.com/lists/players_on_cards.txt > >Anyone with proof of others, let me know. Whether he's a player or not I don't know, Salinger was based on a member of White Wolf staff. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] ...or in the same category as Julius Caesar ;-P who referred to himself in the third person in his book, The Gallic War. Greetings, Damnans

On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, XZealot wrote: > The word on the street is that Xaviar is Robert Goudie and Cohn Rose is > Christian Herro, but then again I am a VTES scandalmonger. Kind of like the > time that David Cherryholmes had too much to drink..... You talk like it's some singular event. Gonna make it to GenCon this year, daddy-o? David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 david.che...@duke.edu

On 10 Jun 2003, Halcyan 2 wrote: > >Benson, Anson is based on Anson Maddocks, and so on. I think > >the names of the vamps were supposed to correspond like that > >(initials or entire names matching those of the artist/model). Anson is Maddocks. I know because I met him at the staff-stockholder party for the Dark Sovereigns/VTES release. Funny story: we crashed the party and, while standing in line for cake I was chatting with some guy and made a joke about how I "crash WotC parties" when he asked me what I did. President of the company, doh! He was pretty cool, though. Didn't say anything to us, and I only knew who he was because the woman who was editor of Scrye at the time told us. [ quoted text not captured ]

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<e97aevo90k10sl52h...@4ax.com>... a? > > To get my picture on the card, I won a Sabbat draft tournament at > DragonCon. I also took 2nd place in the event Steve Coombs won. I > had given up on the prize after both Sabbat War and Final Nights had > come out and we hadn't appeared. I was really hoping to be Talley the > Hound or Moncada, but you see the real me on Adonai, so it worked out. I'm surprised no one saw that coming, considering your third eye and all. :) -mummy

"Xian" <xi...@visi.nospam.com> wrote in message news:pr3aev8pf4bh3nfot...@4ax.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I do not establish these as facts, but you do kind of have the same hair cut. :) -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

> > Xavier is Robert Goudie, VKEN Grand Poo-Bah. > > LOL. Cut it out Swampy. However, I did hear I was gonna be the Advanced > Xavier-- he's going to have a beer gut and some serious balding. Me and you both on the beer gut thing. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:Pine.GSO.4.21.030610...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu... > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, XZealot wrote: > > > The word on the street is that Xaviar is Robert Goudie and Cohn Rose is > > Christian Herro, but then again I am a VTES scandalmonger. Kind of like the > > time that David Cherryholmes had too much to drink..... > > You talk like it's some singular event. Gonna make it to GenCon this > year, daddy-o? There are serious doubts about it. Maybe if my career path takes a sharp upward turn, but there is a bright light on the horizon. I will toast your health from my lair in the swamp. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

Halcyan 2 wrote: > Just want to say that I agree with this assessment. Overall, I think Malks, > Lasombra, Tzimisce, So I keep seeing that people think the Tzimisce are strong, and I'm just not seeing it. They have Animalism, Viscisutde, and Auspex. -Animalism gives them intercept, untap, and combat back up. -Vicisitude gives them good combat, light stealth and very light bleed bonus. -Auspex gives them intercept and bleed bounce. This all adds up to a really good defensive/wall deck, but not much else. Defensive wall decks are really good at getting 2 VPs, but getting 3 VPs is not that easy, and sweeping is very unlikely. So while they are certainly hearty, they lack significant forward momentum, which is what makes the Malkavians, Ventrue, and heck, even Lasombra handy. Again, the Tzimisce strike me as very similar to the Gangrel, but with bleed bounce. While bleed bounce is certainly good, giving it to the Gangrel isn't going to put them at the top of the heap, so I can't really see how a clan that is very similar to the Gangrel with bounce is top notch. [ quoted text not captured ]

>So I keep seeing that people think the Tzimisce are strong, and I'm just not >seeing it. They have Animalism, Viscisutde, and Auspex. > >-Animalism gives them intercept, untap, and combat back up. > >-Vicisitude gives them good combat, light stealth and very light bleed >bonus. The bleed bonus is free and more importantly an action modifier. While I might use it for stealth, I never think of it as a stealth card outside of vote decks because action modifier plus bleed is so good. >-Auspex gives them intercept and bleed bounce. Which are good in any deck. Gangrel have to work at one and graft for the other. Also, Telepathic Misdirection may be an inferior bounce card, but it's a superior card overall to Deflection. >This all adds up to a really good defensive/wall deck, but not much else. Why not much else? Why can't they rush given all of the combat options of Vicissitude plus Nose of the Hound and Telepathic Tracking? Why can't they bruise and bleed? Why can't they bleed with light stealth? Why can't they call votes at stealth backed up by Prisci, Cardinals, Telepathic Vote Counting, Private Audience? >Defensive wall decks are really good at getting 2 VPs, but getting 3 VPs is >not that easy, and sweeping is very unlikely. So while they are certainly >hearty, they lack significant forward momentum, which is what makes the >Malkavians, Ventrue, and heck, even Lasombra handy. Bleeds of 3 aren't weak. Ignoring Pulse, and I almost always ignore it, Computer Hacking plus Changeling is 3, Living Manse plus Changeling is 3, etc. Don't even need superior disciplines to do this, but you get them anyway most of the time with the crypt options available. It's also possible to vote. Wouldn't say it's a great choice, but besides everything else they give, even if you don't use Presence, Velya just helps this. >Again, the Tzimisce strike me as very similar to the Gangrel, but with bleed >bounce. While bleed bounce is certainly good, giving it to the Gangrel isn't >going to put them at the top of the heap, so I can't really see how a clan >that is very similar to the Gangrel with bounce is top notch. I'm not sure what you mean about Gangrel getting bleed bounce. If grafting a bounce discipline, then, no, they don't go to the top, but that has something to do with the effort put into grafting the discipline. If, OTOH, they had Ani/Dom/Pro or Dom/For/Pro as clan disciplines, they'd be better. Problem with using Dom, though, due to its brokenness, but there's also a problem with using Aus as a replacement instead of Dom as it lacks Changeling. Aus/Vic covers all necessary bases much like Dom/Obt does. This results in Tzimisce decks having tighter crypts than most Gangrel decks. Speaking of crypts, the specials of the Tzimisce tend to be better. Also, Tzimisce have more inherent voting power at lower caps due to the Prisci. In the extreme, yes, they do intercept combat better than anyone, which is one reason people gravitate towards it. But, they do a lot of things well enough that more toolboxed decks are quite good.

On 10 Jun 2003 05:28:13 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: >Halcyan 2 >you should start a VTES Urban Legends page on your web-site!!! How about you start it on your site, and I will link to it. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com/geography.htm

>> Nothing particularly shocking there, but you asked. The >> only one worth >> commenting on, I believe, are the Ventrue. I've >> heard/read from several >> people that the Ventrue are de-throned because +1 stealth >> just doesn't cut >> it in today's metagame. > >I think its more of a broad spectrum thing for me and a few likeminded >thinkers. By that I mean the following in some sort of order of >importance: > >5th errata. Ouch, this hurt the Ventrue a hell of a lot, both in terms >of speed and blood/pool gain and combat defence. Change to 5th has seen >it move to relative obscurity because of function and utility. FAR to >harsh a change as has been much debated elsewhere. < snip rest of interesting analysis > Just wanted to say that Rob has very eloquently and meticulously explained why Ventrue have gone down a peg or two since around the time of CE. Halcyan 2

>> I'm pretty sure Cohn Rose was in no way modelled after me; that's just >> a vicious rumor that Kevin has been spreading. > >I do not establish these as facts, but you do kind of have the same hair >cut. :) I still don't see it either. As far as I can recall, Christian's hair tends to be much spikier. Doesn't really look like Cohn's at all from my perspective. (Cohn's hair just looks a little tossled). Not to mention the ears, long forehead, and other facial features don't particularly strike me as resembling Mr. Rockstar. Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > < snip rest of interesting analysis > > > Just wanted to say that Rob has very eloquently and > meticulously explained why > Ventrue have gone down a peg or two since around the time of CE. Why thank you kind sir. I think my old favourite, the purple politicians have indeed gone down a peg or two. I _might_ be willing to consider them for a 3rd or 4th position but no way #1 these days. Rob -- Direct access to this group with http://web2news.com http://web2news.com/?rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

> David Cherryholmes wrote: > > >>top 3 'strongest' clans at the moment? > > > > 1. Ventrue > > 2. Malkavians > > 3. Lasombra My personal opinion of the top 3 clans at the moment are... 1. Malkavians 2. Malkavian Antitribu 3. Lasombra While the Malkavian and Malkavian Antitribu are individual clans I sometimes feel that they are being handled as really one clan by WW and LSJ. Thus, an additional top clan would be the Tremere. The changes in CE, IMO, have really allowed the Tremere to open new doors with both old and new strategies. <snip> >Rob Treasure wrote: > > ToGP errata. Again probably needed and less useful to the Ventrue deck > with easy access to Hostile but they had possibly the easiest Justicar > vote to pass and thus good scope for easy access to medium quantities of > this card which as we all know had HUGE forward pressure. I tend to view the change to ToGP to be overly harsh. I believe the card should have been written to allow each Methuselah to ability to play it once in a game rather than have it follow suit with Giant's Blood limitation. Not that it does much good now as the card reads what the card reads. > It's mostly this lot really that has done them in from my point of view. > I consider myself a fairly decent judge of power levels and there is no > way the Ventrue are #1 anymore.. not even close. Agreed. However, I would not put it past you, Rob, to figure out a way to bring them back to top form. <snip> Michael Eichler Prince of Spangdahlem

Ramsteiner wrote: > My personal opinion of the top 3 clans at the moment are... > > 1. Malkavians > 2. Malkavian Antitribu > 3. Lasombra Interesting that people are citing the Malks and their antitribu. I can't see the !Malks top 3 myself but can understand the Malks in a combat thin metagame. I have seen them get rent asunder too many times to count so this has to figure in my musings i'm afraid. Lasombra do seem to be popping up pretty damn often as well. I agree that they are definitely top 3. > While the Malkavian and Malkavian Antitribu are individual clans I > sometimes feel that they are being handled as really one clan by WW > and LSJ. Thus, an additional top clan would be the Tremere. The > changes in CE, IMO, have really allowed the Tremere to open new doors > with both old and new strategies. Still not really got around to CE Tremere. I just can't see past their non-complementary discipline spread. What are you seeing new that they can do? They still can't get bleeds through and still get a regular kicking as far as I can see. I do think Perfect Clarity (with non-Tremere :o) is a great card mind you. > <snip> > I tend to view the change to ToGP to be overly harsh. I believe the > card should have been written to allow each Methuselah to ability to > play it once in a game rather than have it follow suit with Giant's > Blood limitation. Not that it does much good now as the card reads > what the card reads. That really was one of the prime cases for errata though. A few people 'stumbled' upon it at the same time and all of a sudden everyone was living in fear. One a game is fair enough for that if you ask me. I think if played correctly and intelligently on a key target above say... 7 pts it _should_ just about oust your prey for you. That in my book is power :o) >> It's mostly this lot really that has done them in from my >> point of view. >> I consider myself a fairly decent judge of power levels >> and there is no >> way the Ventrue are #1 anymore.. not even close. > > Agreed. However, I would not put it past you, Rob, to figure out a > way to bring them back to top form. Kind of you to say so but I don't think i'll bother, stuff will only get changed again :o) [ quoted text not captured ]

On 11 Jun 2003, Halcyan 2 wrote: > Just wanted to say that Rob has very eloquently and meticulously explained why > Ventrue have gone down a peg or two since around the time of CE. Each specific point Rob makes is true in itself, but the ultimate test lies in how well they perform. The TWD is flawed in well-known ways, but it's the best we've got for this type of thing. I'd suggest that, if cards got nuked that were previously seen as "key" for the Ventrue and they are still performing as well as ever, then perhaps those cards weren't the critical component of well-performing Ventrue decks. Or, perhaps they *were* that important, but the overall effect of changes elsewhere left them in the same spot relative to the other deck archetypes. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Smiling Tom, The Anarch" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote in message news:<bc36uk$oa5$1...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>... > > > Rather than make hosers that will see play, why not just stop making > > hosers? > > > > 'Cause its something to print? I don't know... > > > > I can say this...every bloody storyline deck should mandatory include a > > Detection and Vicissitude Poisoning. ;) > > > I guess that some vicissitude poisoning might be compulsory in every > storyline deck, specially for this one. Even if you are going to play > tzimis. > > Until the CE, i'd always put a Cultivated Blood Shotage in every tournament > deck i build. I simply hate ventrue lawfirms. After the changes of CE, I 've > seen no need to use a card slot with this, unless in the cryptic mission > deck, obvioulsy, along with a couple of fear of mekhet. > > Some local players say that I'm a bit sick upon this. Well, that might be > sure. I've burned every arika that appeared in my dark sovereigns decks, and > exchanged every ventrue i've got, except hrothulf. > > And for the sake of irony, I won last year's conclave, in palma, and thus > held the ventrue justicar title until july. Whenever i remember it, some > kind of eschizophrenia cuts my breath. > > Smiling tom, anarch But Dear justicar, you mus be happy to lead us to Victory! Hail to ur "VENTRUE" justicar. Let 'em know where Law is! Iñaki, (Ventrue) Prince of Barcelona.-

"robtreasure" <robtreasure....@web2news.net> wrote in message news:<3897...@web2news.com>... > Ramsteiner wrote: > > > My personal opinion of the top 3 clans at the moment are... > > > > 1. Malkavians > > 2. Malkavian Antitribu > > 3. Lasombra > > Interesting that people are citing the Malks and their antitribu. I > can't see the !Malks top 3 myself but can understand the Malks in a > combat thin metagame. I have seen them get rent asunder too many times > to count so this has to figure in my musings i'm afraid. > Not a problem. I tend to see them pop up quite often and usually with very good results. > Lasombra do seem to be popping up pretty damn often as well. I agree > that they are definitely top 3. > > > While the Malkavian and Malkavian Antitribu are individual clans I > > sometimes feel that they are being handled as really one clan by WW > > and LSJ. Thus, an additional top clan would be the Tremere. The > > changes in CE, IMO, have really allowed the Tremere to open new doors > > with both old and new strategies. > > Still not really got around to CE Tremere. I just can't see past their > non-complementary discipline spread. What are you seeing new that they > can do? They still can't get bleeds through and still get a regular > kicking as far as I can see. > Actually, I should have stated it as a boost to the Tremere. The alteration of Blood Fury and Rage have allowed them to move from being helpless against IG to assist them in a combat strategy. Therefore it gives you more to work with. To go around the bleed problem, there has always been that extremely underused card... Blood Bond. I know it is expensive, but minions with Fortitude can make capital gains with this via Freak Drive and they have always had access to Seduction to compliment. The current roster of minions that fit the bill for Fortitude and Tharmaturgy are... Bindusara (2) also has Dominate Cardano (1) also has Dominate Darius Styx (2) Eugenio Estevez (3) also has Dominate Ezmerelda (2) also has Dominate Fidus (2) Gwendolyn (2) Iliana (2,3?) also has Dominate Lucinde Alastor (3) also has Dominate Marlene (2) also has Dominate Muaziz (2) also has Dominate Pieter (2) Ulugh Beg (1) also has Dominate Victorine Lafourcade (3) also has Dominate Vincent Day (2) also has Dominate Zayyat (3?) > I do think Perfect Clarity (with non-Tremere :o) is a great card mind > you. > Perfect Clarity is a great card. Shame I only have a few. <sniff> > > <snip> > > I tend to view the change to ToGP to be overly harsh. I believe the > > card should have been written to allow each Methuselah to ability to > > play it once in a game rather than have it follow suit with Giant's > > Blood limitation. Not that it does much good now as the card reads > > what the card reads. > > That really was one of the prime cases for errata though. A few people > 'stumbled' upon it at the same time and all of a sudden everyone was > living in fear. One a game is fair enough for that if you ask me. I > think if played correctly and intelligently on a key target above say... > 7 pts it _should_ just about oust your prey for you. That in my book is > power :o) > Agreed that ToGP is a strong card, but I really felt that cutting it down to just one per game was to me extreme. One per player per game would have been nice, but it is water under the bridge now isn't it? > >> It's mostly this lot really that has done them in from my > >> point of view. > >> I consider myself a fairly decent judge of power levels > >> and there is no > >> way the Ventrue are #1 anymore.. not even close. > > > > Agreed. However, I would not put it past you, Rob, to figure out a > > way to bring them back to top form. > > Kind of you to say so but I don't think i'll bother, stuff will only get > changed again :o) > Really? I would think LSJ and WW are done with downsizing the Ventrue and their capabilities. Michael > Rob

Curevei wrote: > The bleed bonus is free and more importantly an action modifier. While I > might > use it for stealth, I never think of it as a stealth card outside of vote > decks > because action modifier plus bleed is so good. Sure--Changling is a good card, which is why the Tzimsce don't, like, totally suck. > Which are good in any deck. Gangrel have to work at one and graft for the > other. Also, Telepathic Misdirection may be an inferior bounce card, but it's > a superior card overall to Deflection. Also good, and again, why they don't suck like the Gangrel. > Why not much else? Why can't they rush given all of the combat options of > Vicissitude plus Nose of the Hound and Telepathic Tracking? The lack of significant numbers of small vampires with vic. Rush decks that actually win games are generally made of small vampires, by neccessity. You can make an ok Tzimiscee rush deck, revolving around ~6+ point vampires, but you can make lots of decks like this with lots of clans, and most of them aren't that good. > Why can't they > bruise and bleed? They can, but why would they want to? Bruise/Bleed is weak. If bruise/bleed was strong, the Tremere (who are, in many ways, very similar to the Tzimiscee--they both have Auspex; the Tremere get Dom for extra bounce, significant bleed, and light stealth; Tha makes for reasonable combat; they both have access to pretty much the same anti-S:CE cards) would be a top 3 clan. But they aren't. 'Cause bruise and bleed is lacking. At best. >>Why can't they bleed with light stealth?>> They can. Just fine. But I'm not seeing that as a top three strategy. > Why can't they > call votes at stealth backed up by Prisci, Cardinals, Telepathic Vote > Counting, > Private Audience? Sure--but other clans can do the same, but better. > Bleeds of 3 aren't weak. Ignoring Pulse, and I almost always ignore it, > Computer Hacking plus Changeling is 3, Living Manse plus Changeling is 3, etc. > Don't even need superior disciplines to do this, but you get them anyway most > of the time with the crypt options available. That is half of what slows the Tzimisce down--the crypt options. You can't really make a significant Tzimiscee deck without using the big vampires, which slows them down. > I'm not sure what you mean about Gangrel getting bleed bounce. I was just drawing a comparison--the Tzimiscee are like the Gangrel with bleed bounce. If the Gangrel all suddenly had access to bleed bounce, they wouldn't be that much more effective than they are now. They'd be like the Tzimisce. > In the extreme, yes, they do intercept combat better than anyone, which is one > reason people gravitate towards it. But, they do a lot of things well enough > that more toolboxed decks are quite good. Don't get me wrong here--I don't think the Tzimisce are, like, useless or anything, but I simply don't see them as being in the same league (by a considerable margin), in terms of overall effectiveness, as the Ventrue and the Malkavians, both of whom have access to very strong, very direct, very effective strategies. The Tzimisce are very effective at one particular strategy (intercept wall), but this isn't a pro-active/winning strategy. It is a "get 2 VPs per game" strategy. They can do a bunch of other stuff (bleed, vote, rush), but they are going to be less effective at this than other clans for various reasons (vampire size, inappropriate discipline combination, whatever). So what we have is a clan that is really, really good at making wall decks (which don't win games so much), and reasonably ok at various other strategies (just like lots of other clans). To me, all of this adds up to a clan that is just like most of the other clans--certainly useful, but not as good as, say, the Ventrue or the Malkavians. And I'd generally consider them outclassed by the Brujah,a nd probably the Lasombra. [ quoted text not captured ]

> So I keep seeing that people think the Tzimisce are strong, and I'm just not > seeing it. They have Animalism, Viscisutde, and Auspex. The Tzimisce have War ghouls, one of the most overpowered allies of the game (this along with Renegade Garous, both have their own advantages and weaknesses). A War ghoul deck is always a great deck, also a deck backed-up by War ghouls could solve too many problems (for example a sneak and bleed with lots of Agg damage and some intercept, kind of toolbox, with let's say 4 WG, with their retainers and so... this kind of deck works amazingly) Greetings, Iñaki, Prince of Barcelona.-

"Ego_Sum" <inaki.pu...@estudiant.upc.es> escribió en el mensaje news:3ca8580b.03061...@posting.google.com... > > So I keep seeing that people think the Tzimisce are strong, and I'm just not > > seeing it. They have Animalism, Viscisutde, and Auspex. > > The Tzimisce have War ghouls, one of the most overpowered allies of > the game [...] You mean "best" allies or just "most overpowered" allies? Greetings, Damnans

"Damnans" <bel...@ono.com> wrote in message news:<59eGa.22092$FN3.1...@news.ono.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Just most overpowered... Since there are too many good allies out there but not as overpowered as the WG, for example Outcast mage (a.k.a. the lapton + the magnum with legs ;-P) [ quoted text not captured ]

Ego_Sum wrote: [...War Ghouls "are" overpowered...] > Just most overpowered... Since there are too many good allies out > there but not as overpowered as the WG, for example Outcast mage > (a.k.a. the lapton + the magnum with legs ;-P) And why do you think Warghoul is overpowered? Greetings, Damnans

>They can. Just fine. But I'm not seeing that as a top three strategy. 'k, I get this point. Somewhere in the thread there was something about how they couldn't do more than intercept combat, aka lacked versatility, which had only a bit to do with whether they are strong or not. >> In the extreme, yes, they do intercept combat better than anyone, which is >one >> reason people gravitate towards it. But, they do a lot of things well >enough >> that more toolboxed decks are quite good. > >Don't get me wrong here--I don't think the Tzimisce are, like, useless or >anything, but I simply don't see them as being in the same league (by a >considerable margin), in terms of overall effectiveness, as the Ventrue and >the Malkavians, both of whom have access to very strong, very direct, very >effective strategies. What the Tzimisce do well in the extreme is not as strong as what, say, the Malks do well in the extreme. I think one of the points Tzimisce defenders are trying to make without having emphasized it strongly is that the best winning Tzimisce decks are going to be more toolboxy. In the realm of toolbox decks, they may have significant advantages over clans that win out in the realm of focused decks. Not going to stealth bleed as well as the Lasombra, nevermind Malks/!Malks, but they fight better and the Lasombra's bounce doesn't also say +1 intercept, and so on. >The Tzimisce are very effective at one particular strategy (intercept wall), >but this isn't a pro-active/winning strategy. It is a "get 2 VPs per game" >strategy. They can do a bunch of other stuff (bleed, vote, rush), but they >are going to be less effective at this than other clans for various reasons >(vampire size, inappropriate discipline combination, whatever). So what we >have is a clan that is really, really good at making wall decks (which don't >win games so much), and reasonably ok at various other strategies (just like >lots of other clans). They aren't going to do a focused version of these other archetypes better than other clans - true. Seems to me that there aren't a lot of focused, clan-focused decks that do really well. Maybe something to look at data for to see if this is a misimpression. >To me, all of this adds up to a clan that is just like most of the other >clans--certainly useful, but not as good as, say, the Ventrue or the >Malkavians. And I'd generally consider them outclassed by the Brujah,a nd >probably the Lasombra. Well, whatever, at least I found the Tzimisce discussion to be civil, but if I started on how I think the Brujah are in the bottom half Bloodlines included ...

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03060...@posting.google.com>... > > They can't vote, 6 vamps with titles, 3 of which have presence. Not to mention 4/5 with AUS for telepathic vote counting. And who's going to block them? > they can't bleed, Fiendish tongue, pulse. > they can't lunge. > What? Now add to this some bleed/stealth modifers, some SCE, various untap, telepathic misdirections, and they are a very strong clan imo. Now granted most tzimisce decks I've seen do tend to be intercept combat, but that doesn't mean the clan can't do other strategies. T

Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote in message news:<3EE9BEAD...@ono.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Not a single WG (nor a single R Garou) but when you can recruit let's say more than 3, you have the absolute kontrol of the situation (and this is not really difficult), their rush ability along with their high resilience in combat make them a truly powerful card. [ quoted text not captured ]

> I simply don't see them all that useful as a clan--they are kinda like the > Gangrel, but with a +1 bleed card, and the Gangrel aren't that good. The > Tzimisce are real good at being a brutal wall, but their forawrd momentum > always seems lacking. I've seen a lot of Tzim decks consistently bleed for 3 at stealth, without off-clan disciplines or Computer Hackings. It's hard to do that with Gangrel. > > Meh. They are kind of like the Ventrue, but they swap strong combat defense > for strong combat offense, which doesn't really help them do the things they > are actually good at--bleeding and voting. Ventrue vs Lasombra Combat offense: "strike for one" vs Potence and OBT strikes (which include insta-torpor, and 4R) Winner: Lasombra, hands down Combat defense: Fortitude and S:CE vs Dodge/Additional and S:CE. Winner: Tie. Fortitude has many workarounds now, and a Lasombra deck caught off-guard by Immortal Grapple can concievably fight back well enough to at least make them pay for the effot. Bleeding payload: Presence and Dominate vs Dominate. Winner: Ventrue, though the key cards (Govern and Conditioning) are available to both Bleeding Delivery System: Bonding, tapping, and a prayer vs three stealth cards and Bonding. Winner, Lasombra, easily. Voting Payload can't be judged since the only clan-specific referendum is wallpapered by the tournament rules. Voting Delivery System: Presence Modifier vs easier title generation. It's easier to get a Cardinal, since the vote automatically excludes Cam votes, than it is to get a Prince or Justicar. Tie. +1 stealth simply does cut it in many environments, and the Ventrue decks become sitting ducks, unless they're going off-clan for stealth. The Lasombra bloat well, bleed well, oust well, and vote well -- and if rushed, can usually fight well, unless the deck is constructed without combat defense (in which case, you're screwed in the same environment I mentioned above, probably). Maybe it's just a quirk of the environment I play in (which is very combat/wall-intensive), but Lasombra are stronger, in theory and in practive. 1. Lasombra 2. Malks/!Malks 3. Ventrue 4. Tzim 5. Brujah Fanboy

Curevei wrote: > 'k, I get this point. Somewhere in the thread there was something about how > they couldn't do more than intercept combat, aka lacked versatility, which had > only a bit to do with whether they are strong or not. No, no--I don't think the Tzimisce are useless--they certainly can do a lot of stuff pretty well (I have a fairly effective vic/pre/aus deck currently--Why?! Why?! Why didn't Liz Wescott come with pre? Why?!), and they are pretty good at being toolboxy as well as being a solid wall, but neither of these are ever going to be as effective as, say, S+B or fortiude/dominate Freaky unblockable bleeds. > Well, whatever, at least I found the Tzimisce discussion to be civil, but if I > started on how I think the Brujah are in the bottom half Bloodlines included Hey--I'm a civil guy. You really think the Brujah are bad? They are good at Rush combat, which is a reasonable strategy (especially when everyone else is playing Paper...). They are good at political decks (cheap princes, presence, and heck, between Missing Voice and Alacrity, they can get up some reasonable stealth in a pinch). They are good at B+B decks (which, admitedly, aren't that useful). They have good discipline synergy. They have a good selection of vampires (assuming Bru/!Bru as a single vampire supply). Great combat offense (general potence killing) and defense (Flash and/or Majesty). They seem pretty solid to me. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Ventrue vs Lasombra > Combat offense: "strike for one" vs Potence and OBT strikes (which > include insta-torpor, and 4R) Winner: Lasombra, hands down Well, Ventrue have Island of Yiaros, which is not so easily removed anymore... I agree that Lasombra win here though; instatorpor is just evil. Winner: Lasombra > Combat defense: Fortitude and S:CE vs Dodge/Additional and S:CE. > Winner: Tie. Fortitude has many workarounds now, and a Lasombra deck > caught off-guard by Immortal Grapple can concievably fight back well > enough to at least make them pay for the effot. S:CE is not THAT easy to play with Lasombra and arms of the Abyss with an additional strike requires some deck devotion to it to actually become effective. If you're just dodging, well, Ventrue can dodge just as well. Tie. > Bleeding payload: Presence and Dominate vs Dominate. Winner: Ventrue, > though the key cards (Govern and Conditioning) are available to both Legal Manipulations is a better bleed card than Govern since it gains you pool too. Both can be modified with bonding for needed stealth. Govern is a better card overall since you can use it for pool gain too. Ventrue can use Force of Will too, which can work surprisingly well in conjunction with inherent bleed bonuses. Winner: Ventrue > Bleeding Delivery System: Bonding, tapping, and a prayer vs three > stealth cards and Bonding. Winner, Lasombra, easily. Daring the Dawn and Dawn Operation are both perfect bleed deliverers. Bonding works for both and is usually the best choice anyway. I'd rather throw stealth on those crucial politicals than a bleed. Winner: Lasombra, but not by much > Voting Payload can't be judged since the only clan-specific referendum > is wallpapered by the tournament rules. Most 'Prince or Justicar only" politicals are among the better political cards. Parity Shift, Kindred Restructure? Winner: Ventrue > Voting Delivery System: Presence Modifier vs easier title generation. > It's easier to get a Cardinal, since the vote automatically excludes > Cam votes, than it is to get a Prince or Justicar. Tie. Presence is MUCH better for voting than "easier" title generation. Charming Lobby, Bewitching and Awe are very good cards. Plus you have voter captivation for that much needed blood management. One voter caps can easily gain you 5-6 pool combined with a Minion Tap. The +1 vote to all Ventrue effect of their Justicar card is about as effective as the camarilla exclusion on the Cardinal. Winner: Ventrue > +1 stealth simply does cut it in many environments, and the Ventrue > decks become sitting ducks, unless they're going off-clan for stealth. > The Lasombra bloat well, bleed well, oust well, and vote well -- and > if rushed, can usually fight well, unless the deck is constructed > without combat defense (in which case, you're screwed in the same > environment I mentioned above, probably). You're dissing Fortitude as a mere damage prevention discipline while it's far more than that. There are some very powerful action modifiers running around. Freak Drive, Daring the Dawn, Day operation, Dawn Operation and of course there's Restoration (even MORE Blood management), rapid healing to get your guys out of torpor again after the Day operation etc etc. Besides all that, the camarilla titles have the six traditions at their disposal. The Lasombra don't.

ja...@zephyr.org.uk writes: >I'd note that, of the Camarilla clans, the >Ventrue have Dominate, the >Tremere have Dominate and Auspex, >some of the Malkavians have Dominate >and both versions have Auspex, the >Toreador have Auspex... The Brujah >don't follow this pattern, but some of >their more popular vampires >include the Euro Brujah, Theo Bell etc. >Quite a bit of Dominate, if you >choose to exploit it. (It's certainly useful to try.) IOW, all the top clans have some kind of bleed bounce. What the game really needs, IMO, is a disciplineless bleed bounce card, for the same reasons that Elder Intervention and Pack Tactics were added by WotC. Bounce is an essential option as defense against certain bleed decks. That's what would make Dom/Aus desirable, rather than almost essential, to winning tournaments. Probably something like: usable only when being bled by a younger vampire or ally. Choose another Methuseleh as the new target. Tap this reacting vampire. Maybe add a "Do not replace" clause if you want it to be entirely inferior to Redirection. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson

curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) wrote in message news:<20030614213919...@mb-m06.aol.com>... > What the game really needs, IMO, is a disciplineless > bleed bounce card... I'm not sure this is strictly true. There are cards available that significantly reduce the amount of bleeding that any Meth will incur. Protected Resources and Archon Investigation are the old ways, and now we have Aranthebes, The Immortal. Sure, these aren't perfect, but they shouldn't be overlooked as well. I think that each clan ought to have some way of "dealing with" massive bleeders on their own terms. There's always peripheral discussion about this sort of thing on www.thepathofblood.com. All Assamite fans should check that site out. There's a thread where people have proprosed various new cards for Assamites, and I proposed this one as a way for many Assamites to deal with heavy bleeders: Eye for an Eye Reaction Auspex/Quietus 2 blood Only usable after a successful bleed against you. Only usable by a vampire older than the acting vampire. aus/qui: This reacting vampire enters combat with the acting vampire. AUS/QUI: As above, with an optional maneuver only usable on the first round of combat. This one is probably too powerful, since it makes stealth meaningless, but you get the idea. Here's another potential Assamite card: Vengeful Vitae Reaction Quietus 2 blood Only usable after a successful bleed against you. The Methuselah controlling the bleeding vampire must burn pool or blood off his vampires equal to half the amount of the successful bleed. Anyway, you get the idea. Each clan ought to have some way of dealing with massive bleeds in their own way. Curevei had made an interesting suggestion at one time that vampires shouldn't be able to bleed for an amount over half their capacity. This would certainly slow some things down. I am not sure this is necessary, but maybe if they just couldn't bleed for more than their capacity, that would be sufficient. No more second turn bleeds for 5 off a 2-cap (now 3) with a Dominate skill card.

In article <f99d61c5.03061...@posting.google.com>, The Fanboy <texas...@yahoo.com> wrote: >Voting Payload can't be judged since the only clan-specific referendum >is wallpapered by the tournament rules. Breaking down by Cam v. Sabbat, however, one notices that the Ventrue have access to First Tradition and Parity shift, two extremely strong votes that synergize very well. Other prince/justicar votes, like Sabbat Threat and Kindred Restructure, are also very strong. Sabbat political actions requiring titles are: Blood Siege (cornercase), Investiture (strong for vote lock, but doesn't oust anyone), Sabbat Inquisitor (+bleed, not to be sneezed at, but puts the deck in combo vote/bleed mode, not always the easiest thing to pull off), and Templar (Worse than Archon, implies vote/fight deck, a style that's been tried since 1994, when Archon was printed, with very limited success). So being a Cam clan with good access to titles puts the Ventrue over the Lasombra in this category, I'd submit. gomi -- Individually, I love you all with affection unspeakable; but, collectively, I look upon you with a disgust that amounts to absolute detestation. - Gilbert and Sullivan, 'Pirates of Penzance'

In message <20030614213919...@mb-m06.aol.com>, CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> writes: >IOW, all the top clans for some value of "top" Popular is not the same as top. Just because something is played a lot doesn't make it good. Just because people like a clan doesn't make it good. Obviously, they can be useful indicators. But it's certainly not a one- to-one correlation. >What the game really needs, IMO, is a disciplineless >bleed bounce card, for the same reasons that >Elder Intervention and Pack Tactics were added >by WotC. It's worth bearing in mind that when V:TES was issued, Stealth and Bleed was probably the dominant deck type, other than a few repeat tricks (Gangrel repeat loop, Majesty repeat untap). As a result, it was seen to need to be neutered. In part, this came because stealth and bleed is an *easy* deck - in so far as you can teach most people to play a stealth bleed deck at a basic level, and building one is easy since there was one obvious clan - the Malkavians - and plenty of easy to get cards. The facets of combat, bounce and politics weren't being exploited properly. They're more complex strategies that take more time to teach. When mastered, they can be significantly more delicate than stealth bleed, IMO, but it takes a long time to get there. So Elder Intervention gets printed - in part - because people can't deal with stealth and bleed. Not that they don't necessarily have the options available to them, but that they can't deal with it because they haven't worked out how. (Insert standard caveats about the Tournament Winning Deck archive here.) The Tournament Winning Deck archive shows something like 10-20 copies of Elder Intervention *total*. Similar number of Pack Tactics. (Very roughly.) It's not an earth changing or necessary card. So I'm not sure that the reasons you're assuming were necessarily valid, or at least right at the time, or that the card does what you think. >Bounce is an essential option as defense >against certain bleed decks. "essential option" Hmm. If it's an option, it's not exactly essential. Bear in mind that weenie decks have been significantly rebalanced - they're not unplayable, by any stretch, but the playing field is more level. And decks with a couple of big bleeders have significant other targets. An active defence - getting rid of the vampires - is just as plausible as waiting for them to come to you and bouncing it. And one that can work very well. >That's what would make >Dom/Aus desirable, rather than almost essential, to >winning tournaments. Now, this is something I do agree with - despite the above. Bleed bounce *is* very powerful. I don't think it's essential, but it is a relatively good option. >Probably something like: usable only when being bled by >a younger vampire or ally. Choose another Methuseleh >as the new target. Tap this reacting vampire. > >Maybe add a "Do not replace" clause if you want it to be >entirely inferior to Redirection. (On a technicality, this is still not strictly weaker than Redirection; Redirection cannot bounce bleeds from allies. The point is taken, however.) I think this misjudges the issue on a number of levels. For a start, we're assuming that just because bounce works well for AUS and dom/DOM, it should be replicated. This doesn't necessarily follow. On one level, there's theme. AUS/dom having the options make sense. How do you justify if theme-wise for a disciplineless card? Then there's the assumption that, with bleed, bounce is the only way out. Can't we think of *other* options? I know I can. Bleed bounce is good - but couldn't other options also be good? Then there's the assumption that disciplineless is the way forward. Why's that an issue? If we assume, as we might, that Telepathic Misdirection - together with Telepathic Counter and My Enemy's Enemy - are good defence against bleed, we can assume that AUS is a suitably defended discipline against bleed. The Toreador get good bleed bounce, those Tremere who want it have it, the Harbingers have it etc. Now, we may be strictly inferior to Redirection (in an always-Dominate deck) but we're *not* strictly inferior to Telepathic Misdirection. All these vampires I have with aus instead of AUS suddenly get a new form of defence. How balanced is that? If AUS was fine before, why upgrade it? Additionally, not all Dominate including decks include Dominate on *all* the vampires. For instance, the Euro-Brujah decks can do well with some bigger vampires with DOM, but often include non-Dominate vampires. We've just upgraded all them, too, potentially. This doesn't just have to work based on something like the Euro-Brujah, bringing in an out-of- clan discipline. You could be playing a cross-over deck. If having a few Dominate vampires around was providing sufficient defence, you've just upped the potential defence again. Additionally, will such a card actually help the clans who are poorer off for abilities? Just creating a disciplineless card won't necessarily help them - and if it's already helping other people, it may help them more, leaving a nasty disparity between the two anyway. Creating a different style disciplined card, a clan based master card, a clan based reaction card or something like that may well prove to be substantially better and more useful, whilst also addressing the problem squarely. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

[ quoted text not captured ] A few suggestions: Domain defences - playable by Prince or Inner Circle Enemy of the Masters - Assamite -any Assamite can enter combat with the bleeder Obfuscate - Masked Resources Chim Illusory Resources Thaum Rigged Resources Damage/Torporise bleeder Anim On the hoof Halve the bleed (your resources run away from the intruder) Dementation Confused Attack (bounce) I'm sure you can think of a thematic excuse for almost anyone to have almost any game effect. I don't think it's really necessary though. Some bounces could also specify prey or G-predator as the new target.

> Not a single WG (nor a single R Garou) but when you can recruit let's > say more than 3, you have the absolute kontrol of the situation (and > this is not really difficult), their rush ability along with their > high resilience in combat make them a truly powerful card. I do not quire agree. Recruiting 3 War Ghouls costs you 9 pool plus the pool for the vampires to bring them out plus 3 actions, which can be blocked. You cannot bring out 3 War Ghouls easily, I have played the deck quite some times and it is sometimes very hard to get out even 1 War Ghoul. Another thing is the metagame. The amount of ally stealing cards (esp. Entracement) we were seeing at the german championship (quite represantative with 60+ players from all over Europe) was tremendous. In this metagame War Ghouls were very problematic because in most of the games bringing out a War Ghoul would usually mean doing the dirty work for somebody else :-) -- johannes walch v:ekn germany - http://www.vekn.de/

> +1 stealth simply does cut it in many environments, and the Ventrue > decks become sitting ducks, unless they're going off-clan for stealth. There are 6 Ventrue with obf/OBF and 5 of them have a title, while the other one is a good mid-cap. Fits the voting theme quite well, I guess. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <12kcj08k0ft3i.5vuon4kswl2j$.d...@40tude.net>, Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> writes: >A few suggestions: If all you're doing is making suggestions, you don't need the rest of the post to make them. Stripping the quotes down for context, and snipping out the rest, is all that's needed. [ quoted text not captured ]

>I think that each clan ought to have some way of "dealing with" >massive bleeders on their own terms. There's always peripheral >discussion about this sort of thing on www.thepathofblood.com. All >Assamite fans should check that site out. There's a thread where >people have proprosed various new cards for Assamites, and I proposed >this one as a way for many Assamites to deal with heavy bleeders: > >Eye for an Eye >Reaction >Auspex/Quietus >2 blood >Only usable after a successful bleed against you. Only usable by a >vampire older than the acting vampire. >aus/qui: This reacting vampire enters combat with the acting vampire. >AUS/QUI: As above, with an optional maneuver only usable on the first >round of combat. > >This one is probably too powerful, since it makes stealth meaningless, >but you get the idea. It also encourages massive bleed. If it said something like "when you are bled for 3 or more", it wouldn't, but if it can be used any bleed, the only smart bleed are bleeds that will blow you away as fast as possible. At 3+ rather than 4+, it might still see play. And, there may be a problem with multiple vampires playing this. Also, isn't it better to give combat clans noncombat options rather than continue to push them into one mode? >Here's another potential Assamite card: > >Vengeful Vitae >Reaction >Quietus >2 blood >Only usable after a successful bleed against you. The Methuselah >controlling the bleeding vampire must burn pool or blood off his >vampires equal to half the amount of the successful bleed. This is too annoying. You don't want to discourage people from playing decks that try to oust people. Should again be limited to bigger bleeds and should say something like "the acting minion burns 2 blood or all of its blood if it has less than 2" to make it less messy and it should be limited to once per action, though it might not be good enough to see enough played for that to matter. >Anyway, you get the idea. Each clan ought to have some way of dealing >with massive bleeds in their own way. Like graft Dominate? >Curevei had made an interesting suggestion at one time that vampires >shouldn't be able to bleed for an amount over half their capacity. >This would certainly slow some things down. I am not sure this is >necessary, but maybe if they just couldn't bleed for more than their >capacity, that would be sufficient. No more second turn bleeds for 5 >off a 2-cap (now 3) with a Dominate skill card. This was not a suggestion. This was a preference for how the game should have worked all along that would not have gotten written into the rules because it's a headache to keep track of. In a way, Aranthebes is a step towards this done with card text, but it's a small step towards seeing the end of easy 6 bleeds.

> If all you're doing is making suggestions, you don't need the rest of > the post to make them. > > Stripping the quotes down for context, and snipping out the rest, is all > that's needed. Very true. I don't know what came over me. Perhaps I was just overwhelmed by the eloquence of your post ;-)

>What the game really needs, IMO, is a disciplineless >bleed bounce card It might be helpful in leading to the printing of such if someone, somewhere tries proxying up some and playtesting what effect it would have on the game.

> Also, isn't it better to give combat clans noncombat options rather than > continue to push them into one mode? We're talking about ASSAMITES here! >>Here's another potential Assamite card: >> >>Vengeful Vitae >>Reaction >>Quietus >>2 blood >>Only usable after a successful bleed against you. The Methuselah >>controlling the bleeding vampire must burn pool or blood off his >>vampires equal to half the amount of the successful bleed. > > This is too annoying. You don't want to discourage people from playing decks > that try to oust people. Should again be limited to bigger bleeds and should > say something like "the acting minion burns 2 blood or all of its blood if it > has less than 2" to make it less messy and it should be limited to once per > action, though it might not be good enough to see enough played for that to > matter. "Burns 2 blood" is all that's needed. You cannot burn blood you don't have and it's already established that you ignore the effect in that case. In fact putting the redundent text in would only confuse people about other cards. Is one Quietus card really going to have that much impact on what people play? (which is not to say the suggestion isn't overpowered but then it does cost 2 blood and the bleeder can choose where to lose the blod from so I don't really think it is)

[ quoted text not captured ] It happened again. What I actually did was delete the whole quoted text in my reply... my reader helpfully put is all back when I posted ;-( -I know how to avoid it now.

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote [ quoted text not captured ] Some of us have been experimenting with crypt limits in a few JOL games. The kind of experiment you propose would not be too difficult to try out... But not right now. I have two new JOL games on my plate and it looks likely that I will be either playing in the JOL Tourney or moderating it. Cheers, WES

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:<bclf...@enews4.newsguy.com>... > "Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote > > > >What the game really needs, IMO, is a disciplineless > > >bleed bounce card > > > > It might be helpful in leading to the printing of such > > if someone, somewhere tries proxying up some and > > playtesting what effect it would have on the game. > > Some of us have been experimenting with crypt limits in a few JOL games. The > kind of experiment you propose would not be too difficult to try out... We did just get this card in Anarchs: Dummy Corporation Unique Location Put this card into play. You may burn this card when you are being bled to reduce the bleed amount by 2. Sure, it's not bounce and it has a significant cost, but it's disciplineless bleed soak. Now that I've gotten my box of Anarchs, I'm going to try this one out in my Assamite decks. No need to worry about intercepting those stealth bleeders any more.

> Another thing is the metagame. The amount of ally stealing cards (esp. > Entracement) we were seeing at the german championship (quite represantative > with 60+ players from all over Europe) was tremendous. In this metagame War > Ghouls were very problematic because in most of the games bringing out a War > Ghoul would usually mean doing the dirty work for somebody else :-) That's why intercept (retainers, bikes, and auspex) and Direct intervention (I'm playing 3 in my WG deck) arre played. And that's why a WG deck had been 3rd in europeans. Greetings, I?aki, Prince of Barcelona.-