[lsj] Design questions

First off, I haven't really seen you answer many design questions before (not that I can recall), but would you feild them? Questions like Why include a Coven in the Gangs pre constructed? Why can you be independent and become sabbat with into the fire and you restrict it to Sabbat only to become Camerilla with Out of the frying pan? Is it really that unbalancing of an effect to let my independent vampires to become camerilla? Why a one cap with cel nec? Did you just spin the wheel of disciplines to get his two disciplines? Questions like that... I like the Anarchs set themes. Unique actions that go into play, the R2 holds, the haven focus and the rarely occuring special texts of some cards (like car bomb and RV: Haven). The discipline spreads were rather thought out too, in most cases (see above). My only complaint is that I see little use of becoming an anarch at this time, unless you're doing some Fee Stake voting action. The 3-ways seem to be rather limited, and I'm having trouble composing a good deck that utilizes them. Course I've only been thinking about it for the past 3 days, but everytime I try to make a deck with it, my head just winds up hurting... I think its time to hit the Mongor... ~SV

vermillian wrote: > First off, I haven't really seen you answer many design questions > before (not that I can recall), but would you feild them? Questions > like Design questions don't lend themselves to the simple answers that are usually sought, and my time doesn't allow for the extended answers that would be necessary in the other case, at any rate. Design isn't a hard science. > Why include a Coven in the Gangs pre constructed? The deck requires 77 library cards. 77 are chosen. When some people build a deck, they choose cards in quantities that others would not have chosen. > Why can you be independent and become sabbat with into the fire and > you restrict it to Sabbat only to become Camerilla with Out of the > frying pan? Is it really that unbalancing of an effect to let my > independent vampires to become camerilla? It hasn't seemed unbalancing so far: If an independent wants to be Camarilla, he can use a Writ. > Why a one cap with cel nec? Did you just spin the wheel of disciplines > to get his two disciplines? Which two disciplines "should" the vampire have had, empirically? > Questions like that... > > I like the Anarchs set themes. Unique actions that go into play, the > R2 holds, the haven focus and the rarely occuring special texts of > some cards (like car bomb and RV: Haven). The discipline spreads were > rather thought out too, in most cases (see above). > > My only complaint is that I see little use of becoming an anarch at > this time, unless you're doing some Fee Stake voting action. The > 3-ways seem to be rather limited, and I'm having trouble composing a > good deck that utilizes them. Course I've only been thinking about it > for the past 3 days, but everytime I try to make a deck with it, my > head just winds up hurting... Thought provoking wouldn't normally land the "complaint" column for a game, in my ledgers. :-) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> My only complaint is that I see little use of becoming an anarch at > this time, unless you're doing some Fee Stake voting action. The > 3-ways seem to be rather limited, and I'm having trouble composing a > good deck that utilizes them. Course I've only been thinking about it > for the past 3 days, but everytime I try to make a deck with it, my > head just winds up hurting... > > I think its time to hit the Mongor... > > ~SV Limited? Have you seen improvised tactics and diversion? Improvised Tactics provides a pot vamp a steady stream of 2r damage for inferior, diversion gives an additional strive for cel. Never mind that they have two other uses all at inferior if you have the right discipline combo. These cards are just two very good reasons to become an anarch. There are many others upon first glance. Anarch's Rail road, Fee stakes, Hospital food... There is a fairly long list here. All great cards that make being an Anarch viable. Time will tell how viable. Pc.

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3ECA48D4...@white-wolf.com>... > vermillian wrote: > > First off, I haven't really seen you answer many design questions > > before (not that I can recall), but would you feild them? Questions > > like > > Design questions don't lend themselves to the simple answers that are > usually sought, and my time doesn't allow for the extended answers > that would be necessary in the other case, at any rate. > > Design isn't a hard science. Sad, but true. I suppose that's why I so easily have complaints about it. :) > > Why can you be independent and become sabbat with into the fire and > > you restrict it to Sabbat only to become Camerilla with Out of the > > frying pan? Is it really that unbalancing of an effect to let my > > independent vampires to become camerilla? > > It hasn't seemed unbalancing so far: If you compare ITF with OotFP one does more than the other one does, unless for some reason, being camerilla with a master card did something that you didn't want to allow... > > Why a one cap with cel nec? Did you just spin the wheel of disciplines > > to get his two disciplines? > > Which two disciplines "should" the vampire have had, empirically? No empirical "should", just WHY? Were you just sitting around the office saying "Oh, crap, I forgot all about that one 1-cap we needed to make... um... let's just give him cel nec and call it a day"? Or was there more reasoning behind his disciplines than that (I'm assuming yes, but what on earth it could have been... I mean why not ani qui or something?) ~SV

vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) wrote in message news:<f987c6cd.03052...@posting.google.com>... > First off, I haven't really seen you answer many design questions > before (not that I can recall), but would you feild them? Questions > like I'm not a designer, but that doesn't stop me... > > Why include a Coven in the Gangs pre constructed? My guess: with the formalization of the Trifle rule, The Coven would have been reprinted as a Trifle for the purpose of clarification. Why it'd be in the Gangs deck and not one of the other two, I don't know. This guess hinges on the fact that The Coven was, indeed, reprinted as a Trifle, a fact of which I'm not sure because I haven't actually seen any new cards. I'm sure someone will confirm/deny this shortly :) -dancingmummy

vermillian wrote: > If you compare ITF with OotFP one does more than the other one does, > unless for some reason, being camerilla with a master card did > something that you didn't want to allow... See also Closed Session and Private Audience for an example of disparity the other way. >>>Why a one cap with cel nec? Did you just spin the wheel of disciplines >>>to get his two disciplines? >> >>Which two disciplines "should" the vampire have had, empirically? > > No empirical "should", just WHY? Were you just sitting around the > office saying "Oh, crap, I forgot all about that one 1-cap we needed > to make... um... let's just give him cel nec and call it a day"? Or > was there more reasoning behind his disciplines than that (I'm > assuming yes, but what on earth it could have been... I mean why not > ani qui or something?) If it had been ani qui, you'd now be asking "why not cel nec?", right? [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3ECB65B0...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> mumbled something about: >If it had been ani qui, you'd now be asking "why not cel nec?", right? >:-) dude! ani qui! drawing out the beast, thin blood, disease, song of serenity, carrion crows, scorpion's touch! -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

"dancingmummy" <mummydi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:704f42d0.03052...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] My biggest question is why are there two primogen vampires in the Gangs deck when they can't become anarchs without first losing their title of primogen? I got both of said vamps in my opening crypt draw and said "Huh? Guh? They can't even become anarchs?!?!" As I didn't draft an Into the Fire, I wasn't able to circumvent this fact and thus got pounded on 'cause I only had two minions who could go anarch and play half the cards in the deck. The most frustrating part was they would have been able to play a nice selection of effects on the 3 way cards, had they not had the title and had become anarch. Very strange if you ask me...glad they were fun games and not competitive...would have upset me a bit if it had been that way.

Jon Stahler wrote: > My biggest question is why are there two primogen vampires in the Gangs deck > when they can't become anarchs without first losing their title of primogen? I'd have to check, but I think there are a few political actions in that deck, and those primogen have built-in votes which could help pass those referendums. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3ECB9F7A...@white-wolf.com... > Jon Stahler wrote: > > My biggest question is why are there two primogen vampires in the Gangs deck > > when they can't become anarchs without first losing their title of primogen? > > I'd have to check, but I think there are a few political actions in that deck, > and those primogen have built-in votes which could help pass those referendums. > To be clear, I wasn't saying they weren't useful. In fact, it made my prey merge Jeremy McNeil instead of bringing out another minion. It was tough sitting next to the gangrel deck, who systematically destroyed all my anarch vampires and left the primogens alive and well. Killed my game for all intents and purposes...but it was still fun.

[ quoted text not captured ] So if you find them useful in that deck, why is the question of their inclusion in that deck the "biggest" question? [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3ECBD4C4...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white- wolf.com> writes: >So if you find them useful in that deck, why is the question of their inclusion >in that deck the "biggest" question? I think the question runs more on theme. The Gangrel deck, for instance, doesn't include two Lasombra. That'd be counter to the theme of Gangrel. Similarly, you wouldn't expect to see a reprint of Arika in a Malkavian Antitribu starter. Since Primogen are prevented from becoming anarchs, their inclusion in an "anarch" starter might raise eyebrows. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) wrote in message news:<f987c6cd.0305...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Because now he fits with Rafaele Giovanni, Pochtli, etc. If you can't see that, there's a bridge in San Francisco I could sell you. -Mike Ooi

MikeOoiGoogle wrote: >> No empirical "should", just WHY? Were you just sitting around the >> office saying "Oh, crap, I forgot all about that one 1-cap we >> needed to make... um... let's just give him cel nec and call it a >> day"? Or was there more reasoning behind his disciplines than that >> (I'm assuming yes, but what on earth it could have been... I mean >> why not ani qui or something?) > > Because now he fits with Rafaele Giovanni, Pochtli, etc. thinking of a Gun deck based on cel and nec, mainly because you can use dragon breath round to burn the opposing minion and immediatly follow with Daemonic Possession to gain a new vampire.汽he obf on rafaele and pochtli will just serve for forgotten labyrinths, which coupled to call of the hungry dead generally makes sure you are not blocked. Every minion you get from opponents can easily play the concelead weapon + gun + dragon breath combo. And pochtli can recycle guns, dragon breath rounds, possessions and all the stuff. Might also throw in Soul stealing for the +2 fun =) The crypt would probably be something like this : Nedal cel nec x 2, Rafaele x 3, Pochtli x 3, Gaspare x 2 (for those thrown in Burning wrath), Tayshawn Kearns x 2 (for the delicious Al's Army Apparatus) for the deck, i have little time to figure the proportion of cards (i have to go to work in less than one hour) but i'll try this week end =)

LSJ wrote: > > > My biggest question is why are there two primogen vampires in the > > Gangs deck when they can't become anarchs without first losing their > > title of primogen? > > I'd have to check, but I think there are a few political actions in that > deck, and those primogen have built-in votes which could help pass those > referendums. No, no political actions, though the votes can help as defense against the Barons (until the first 2 vote vampire comes out). Pug Jackson is probably in the starter because he has an indeal POT CEL for discipline spread for the reprinted cards in the starter, though why on Earth his pic is on the starter, I can't tell. Ruth McGinley, I really don't get: cel aus is pretty poor for a 6 cap; DEM is corner-case (2 cards only), but probably the reason for another Malk. In this case, Artemis (!Malk, 6 cap, cel for aus OBF DEM) would have probably been by far superior. That would have been a new group 2 reprint, of course. Personally, I think some not previously reprinted Sabbat vampires in the starters would have been a bonus to players who took up the game with Sabbat War or later, though. [Jimmy Dunn could have replaced Pug Jackson, incidentally.] Incidentally, put those new group 2 Sabbat reprints on the wish list for Black Hand - some of the vampires that didn't see Sabbat War were expendable, but for some, easier access to them would certainly be a boon to newer players. Thomas

sh...@texas.net (MikeOoiGoogle) wrote in message news:<6abb59ad.0305...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Mostly I'm just curious to know why they wanted a vampire with cel nec as a one cap, and why not a one cap with tha cel, or qui ani, or qui for, or whatever.... just curious why they picked that particular one cap with those two skills over other possibilities. SImilarly, like why do some vampires incidentally have X discipline? Etc... ~SV

vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) wrote: > Mostly I'm just curious to know why they wanted a vampire with cel nec > as a one cap, and why not a one cap with tha cel, or qui ani, or qui > for, or whatever.... just curious why they picked that particular one > cap with those two skills over other possibilities. WW have ben making an effort to create new VTES vampires that already exist in the RPG. It's my guess that this 1 capacity vampire was converted from the RPG, playtested and found not broken, and so introduced into The Anarch set. > SImilarly, like why do some vampires incidentally have X discipline? > Etc... By "incidentally" I'm guessing you mean a Discipline that's out-of-clan and doesn't provide an obvious combo... for example, Madame Guil's Serpentis or Oliver Thrace's Necromancy. Probably for the exact same reason - the RPG source of these vampires suggested that they be converted with these out-of-clan Disciplines, and there wasn't any reason not to do so. james o'rance http://www.geocities.com/dragon-dreamer/vampire