[LSJ] earth feeder question

Hi ! i want to know how earth feeder interacts with alternative hunt actions. if i make Kyoko a Laibon, can i play earth feeder (card text : "hunt. If the hunt is successful, put this card on the acting laibon) to declare a hunt on another minion ? (my guess : no) if i have a week of nightmare in play and my Tsunda is empty, can i play earth feeder to declare a "hunt" on a younger ravnos, as provided by week of nightmare's card text ? (my guess : yes) if i have a Restricted vitae in play and an empty Laibon, can i play earth feeder and declare a hunt on a younger vampire controlled by another methuselah ? (my guess : yes) thanks for the answer :)

Reyda ! wrote: > Hi ! > i want to know how earth feeder interacts with alternative hunt > actions. > if i make Kyoko a Laibon, can i play earth feeder (card text : "hunt. > If the hunt is successful, put this card on the acting laibon) to > declare a hunt on another minion ? > (my guess : no) Correct. Choose one action or the other. > if i have a week of nightmare in play and my Tsunda is empty, can i > play earth feeder to declare a "hunt" on a younger ravnos, as provided > by week of nightmare's card text ? > (my guess : yes) No. Choose one action or the other. > if i have a Restricted vitae in play and an empty Laibon, can i play > earth feeder and declare a hunt on a younger vampire controlled by > another methuselah ? > (my guess : yes) No. Choose one action or the other.

Reyda ! <Rey...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi ! > i want to know how earth feeder interacts with alternative hunt > actions. I believe Earth Feeder says "Hunt." to save textbox space, but would be more accurate to say "+1 stealth hunt action. This vampire gains 1 blood from the blood bank...."

[ quoted text not captured ] Um, yeah. Just like Computer Hacking would be more accurately worded: "0 stealth bleed action. This minion burns 1 pool plus an additional pool from the target Methuselah, which is your prey by default. Actually, both are completely accurate using terminology given in the rulebook (hunt and bleed, respectively).

[ quoted text not captured ] But there are hunt actions that do not just gain 1 blood from the blood bank. In fact, there are effects that replace a vampire's standard hunt action with a different effect. Like Kyoko, whose ability denies her the option to take a default hunt action. So when you have a card that says "+2 stealth: Hunt" used by a vampire that cannot use the default hunt action, it makes sense to wonder what they do by "hunting" - the default action, which they are normally denied, or the "Hunt" effect that would normally be available to them. In the case where a vampire has a choice of what to do with a cardless hunt action, it makes sense to wonder if they can choose which effect to apply. To that effect, Earth-Feeder would be clearer if it said "+2 stealth hunt action - gain 1 blood from the blood bank...". Similarly, if, before Computer Hacking had been printed, there was a vampire that said "instead of the normal bleed action, this vampire may bleed a minion to burn a blood from that minion", then there might have been confusion over how that vampire would interract with a card that said "Bleed at +1 stealth". Obviously, the wording I state doesn't make much sense, because bleeds remove pool from your prey - how would you "bleed a minion", which is why Computer Hacking's wording isn't ambiguous. But since there are hunt actions that don't gain a blood from the blood bank, I don't think it's crazy to suggest that another non-default hunt action might have stated what it does to avoid confusion...

Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote: > > Um, yeah. Just like Computer Hacking would be more accurately worded: "0 stealth > > bleed action. This minion burns 1 pool plus an additional pool from the target > > Methuselah, which is your prey by default. > > > > Actually, both are completely accurate using terminology given in the rulebook > > (hunt and bleed, respectively). > But there are hunt actions that do not just gain 1 blood from the > blood bank.... Along with what Chris said, it's also a templating issue. Earth-Feeder is the only hunt action card that is worded this way. Some examples: Loki's Gift says "+1 stealth hunt action. Gain 1 blood and this card." Soul Feasting says "+1 stealth hunt action. Gain 1 blood, or..." Since E-F is specifically differently worded, it definitely contributes to the ambuguity of interpretation. You can't say that Soul Feasting's text was chosen to save textbox space...

Chris Berger wrote: > On May 7, 7:53 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> Jozxyqk wrote: >>> Reyda ! <Rey...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Hi ! >>>> i want to know how earth feeder interacts with alternative hunt >>>> actions. >>> I believe Earth Feeder says "Hunt." to save textbox space, but would be more >>> accurate to say "+1 stealth hunt action. This vampire gains 1 blood from the >>> blood bank...." >> Um, yeah. Just like Computer Hacking would be more accurately worded: "0 stealth >> bleed action. This minion burns 1 pool plus an additional pool from the target >> Methuselah, which is your prey by default. >> >> Actually, both are completely accurate using terminology given in the rulebook >> (hunt and bleed, respectively). > > But there are hunt actions that do not just gain 1 blood from the > blood bank. Just as there are bleed actions that do not just burn 1 pool from the target. > In fact, there are effects that replace a vampire's > standard hunt action with a different effect. No. There are effects which prohibit a vampire from hunting as normal. Many of those effects also provide additional (not-as-normal)hunt actions. > Like Kyoko, whose > ability denies her the option to take a default hunt action. Exactly. The standard hunt action is not replaced, but denied. > So when > you have a card that says "+2 stealth: Hunt" used by a vampire that > cannot use the default hunt action, it makes sense to wonder what they > do by "hunting" - the default action, which they are normally denied, > or the "Hunt" effect that would normally be available to them. Only if one assumes that hunting with Earth Feeder is hunting as normal. Hunting "as normal" is a cardless action, is typically at +1 stealth, and does not place Earth-Feeder on the hunter. So it seems hunting with Earth-Feeder is not hunting as normal. And, indeed, that is the official view. A vampire could hunt, get blocked, play Change of Target (becoming unable to perform the "same action", in this case the normal hunt, and the play Earth-Feeder to hunt, for example). See also http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/dcf11cf09bc7048e Similarly, Flurry of Action is not the normal bleed action. Bleeding with Flurry of Action is not bleeding as normal, and it could be done if some effect said the vampire "cannot bleed as normal". > In the > case where a vampire has a choice of what to do with a cardless hunt > action, it makes sense to wonder if they can choose which effect to > apply. To that effect, Earth-Feeder would be clearer if it said "+2 > stealth hunt action - gain 1 blood from the blood bank...". Perhaps, but it actually works the same as other established precidents. Jeremy Wix with a Camera Phone cannot combine Flurry of Action with either his special bleed action or the Camera Phone's action, even though Flurry says "Bleed". The same established principle applies here, by direct parallel. > Similarly, if, before Computer Hacking had been printed, there was a > vampire that said "instead of the normal bleed action, this vampire > may bleed a minion to burn a blood from that minion", then there might > have been confusion over how that vampire would interract with a card > that said "Bleed at +1 stealth". Obviously, the wording I state > doesn't make much sense, because bleeds remove pool from your prey - > how would you "bleed a minion", which is why Computer Hacking's > wording isn't ambiguous. But since there are hunt actions that don't > gain a blood from the blood bank, I don't think it's crazy to suggest > that another non-default hunt action might have stated what it does to > avoid confusion... No more so than the bleed actions, which have not caused confusion.

Jozxyqk wrote: > Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote: >>> Um, yeah. Just like Computer Hacking would be more accurately worded: "0 stealth >>> bleed action. This minion burns 1 pool plus an additional pool from the target >>> Methuselah, which is your prey by default. >>> >>> Actually, both are completely accurate using terminology given in the rulebook >>> (hunt and bleed, respectively). > >> But there are hunt actions that do not just gain 1 blood from the >> blood bank.... > > Along with what Chris said, it's also a templating issue. > Earth-Feeder is the only hunt action card that is worded this way. Perhaps, but it's not the only action card worded that way. Cat Burglary Concordance Fleetness Flurry of Action Forgery and so on

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > Along with what Chris said, it's also a templating issue. > > Earth-Feeder is the only hunt action card that is worded this way. > Perhaps, but it's not the only action card worded that way. > Cat Burglary > Concordance > Fleetness > Flurry of Action > Forgery > and so on When a card says "Bleed.", it is a more straightforward assumption than when a card says "Hunt." There's only one type of bleeding. The only thing that changes is the amount and the card you use to take the action. The only ways to be banned from taking the "default bleed action" are to be banned from taking _all_ bleed actions, or for one of your other minions to have played Red Herring after being blocked on a cardless bleed. If a card says "Bleed.", it is obvious that it means "Bleed your prey for your base bleed amount." There are many effects in the game that allow (or force) alternative hunt actions. Their results vary. This leads to a more gooey interpretation of what the single word "Hunt." means in card text. This can lead to confusion, even if you don't see how it can. And since this is a question about a single, off-template, questionable-use card, I'm willing to stop talking about it with your clarification. But, for the future (Sorry Ben! I'm not trying to get this card reprinted!), I think the easiest thing to do would just be to clarify the text to say "+2 stealth hunt action. {Gain 1 blood.}...." since the rest is just semantics.

Jozxyqk wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >>> Along with what Chris said, it's also a templating issue. >>> Earth-Feeder is the only hunt action card that is worded this way. > >> Perhaps, but it's not the only action card worded that way. >> Cat Burglary >> Concordance >> Fleetness >> Flurry of Action >> Forgery >> and so on > > When a card says "Bleed.", it is a more straightforward assumption > than when a card says "Hunt." Not. The two are parallel in the rules. Neither has any claim to higher straightfowardness. Perhaps you mean something along the lines of "I'm more accustomed to cards that offer bleed actions other than the default cardless bleed action". > There's only one type of bleeding. The only thing that changes is > the amount and the card you use to take the action. And the stealth and the target and the amount of pool you gain from the action and who can block the action and which other minions get tapped and so on. > The only ways > to be banned from taking the "default bleed action" are to be banned > from taking _all_ bleed actions, No. It is quite easy to imagine an effect of "This minion cannot bleed as normal." with or without being coupled with a "This minion may bleed by stealing 1 blood from a vampire as a (D) action." The latter bit seems unlikely, but certainly conceptually available, and it is possible that some other variation would be practical enough to actually see print, but that's beside the point. > or for one of your other minions > to have played Red Herring after being blocked on a cardless bleed. Um. Yeah. That's the point. The counter to the argument that "Hunt" on an action card's text means the normal cardless action as opposed to "this vampire gains 1 blood from the blood bank". > If a card says "Bleed.", it is obvious that it means "Bleed your prey > for your base bleed amount." Well, with any modifications (adjustments to stealth or the bleed amount, ignoring excess bleed amounts, restricting blockers, drawing cards, gaining blood or pool, untapping, or free transfers) given in the rest of the text, but right. Not "take the cardless action called bleed to bleed as normal". > There are many effects in the game that allow (or force) alternative > hunt actions. Their results vary. This leads to a more gooey > interpretation of what the single word "Hunt." means in card text. No. No more than the existence of the many effects in the game that allow (or force) alternative bleed actions with varying results leads to a gooier interpretation of what the single word "Bleed" means in card text. > This can lead to confusion, even if you don't see how it can. How is my explaining what the official reading is and the completeness of the parallel to something players find less confusing an assertion that I don't see how someone may be confused by something? The two aren't mutually exclusive, even if you don't see how they aren't. > And since this is a question about a single, off-template, questionable-use > card, I'm willing to stop talking about it with your clarification. If you say so. It isn't off-template. > But, for the future (Sorry Ben! I'm not trying to get this card reprinted!), > I think the easiest thing to do would just be to clarify the text to say "+2 > stealth hunt action. {Gain 1 blood.}...." since the rest is just semantics. See also the "simplest" thing to do for cards that say "Bleed.".