Re: [Q] True faith vs Infernal strikes.

On 13 Oct 2004 14:06:14 -0700, djen...@hotmail.com (Ulugh Beg) wrote: >Greetings , i have this doubt , Arika thanks to Barbaro come to the >Infernal Horde, Then a Muddle Vampire Hunter with TRUE FAITH wanna >Strike her , can Arika play S:CE?? Or she cannot cause her new >infernal trait ? Card text is clear. Only "actions" requiring Dominate and Presence are affected. Combat cards and Reaction cards are completely unaffected by True Faith. Arika will gladly Catatonic Fear and kill that meddling Vampire Hunter. >True Faith. >Unique Master. Put this card on a non-infernal mortal ally you >control, or pay two pool to put this card on any non-infernal minion >you control. Actions requiring Dominate or Presence cannot be directed >at this minion. In combat, any damage this minion inflicts on an >infernal minion is aggravated. Infernal minions cannot block or strike >this minion. Burn this card if this minion becomes infernal. >Thanks in advance . Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

On 13 Oct 2004, lehrbuch wrote: > Hypothetical: If there was a presence strike to destroy equipment > (equivalent to canine horde), could it be used by an infernal minion > against equipment carried by a minion with True Faith? No need for hypotheticals when Arika could already play inferior Mask Empathy to kill Truly Faithful Muddles' Mr. Winthrop as a strike (or could she?). Matt Morgan

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@eris.io.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.041014...@eris.io.com>... > No need for hypotheticals when Arika could already play > inferior Mask Empathy to kill Truly Faithful Muddles' > Mr. Winthrop as a strike (or could she?). Good point. I forgot about Mask Empathy. I'm not certain that I've ever actually used it. LSJ, would Mask Empathy work in this case? I'm guessing it would as Muddles is the one with True Faith, not Mr Winthrop (similar case to Secure Haven offering no protection against (D) actions targeting retainers/equipment). * lehrbuch

Ulugh Beg wrote: > Greetings , i have this doubt , Arika thanks to Barbaro come to the > Infernal Horde, Then a Muddle Vampire Hunter with TRUE FAITH wanna > Strike her , can Arika play S:CE?? Or she cannot cause her new > infernal trait ? > > True Faith. > Unique Master. Put this card on a non-infernal mortal ally you > control, or pay two pool to put this card on any non-infernal minion > you control. Actions requiring Dominate or Presence cannot be directed > at this minion. In combat, any damage this minion inflicts on an > infernal minion is aggravated. Infernal minions cannot block or strike > this minion. Burn this card if this minion becomes infernal. > Thanks in advance . She can strike to end combat, since such a strike is not striking the faithful minion. (She could not use superior Catatonic Fear, however, since that would be striking the faithful minion, which is prohibited.) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Blackheart <le...@leech.com> wrote in message news:<l56sm0ht68a3rfmmk...@4ax.com>... > On 13 Oct 2004 21:14:00 -0700, lehr...@gmail.com (lehrbuch) wrote: > > > >Hypothetical: If there was a presence strike to destroy equipment > >(equivalent to canine horde), could it be used by an infernal minion > >against equipment carried by a minion with True Faith? > > based on the interpretation LSJ used previously, probably not. I would say that you are wrong, Arika can strike to destroy an equipment a minion has, because by doing this she is striking to burn the equipment, she is not striking the minion.

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message de news:Ctkbd.696224$Gx4.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Ulugh Beg wrote: > > Greetings , i have this doubt , Arika thanks to Barbaro come to the > > Infernal Horde, Then a Muddle Vampire Hunter with TRUE FAITH wanna > > Strike her , can Arika play S:CE?? Or she cannot cause her new > > infernal trait ? > > > > True Faith. > > Unique Master. Put this card on a non-infernal mortal ally you > > control, or pay two pool to put this card on any non-infernal minion > > you control. Actions requiring Dominate or Presence cannot be directed > > at this minion. In combat, any damage this minion inflicts on an > > infernal minion is aggravated. Infernal minions cannot block or strike > > this minion. Burn this card if this minion becomes infernal. > > Thanks in advance . > > She can strike to end combat, since such a strike is not > striking the faithful minion. (She could not use superior > Catatonic Fear, however, since that would be striking the > faithful minion, which is prohibited.) Really ? The catatonic damage is done after combat, and nothing indicates the damage comes from the striking minion. One would think it's legal play !

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<Ctkbd.696224$Gx4.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > Ulugh Beg wrote: > > Greetings , i have this doubt , Arika thanks to Barbaro come to the > > Infernal Horde, Then a Muddle Vampire Hunter with TRUE FAITH wanna > > Strike her , can Arika play S:CE?? Or she cannot cause her new > > infernal trait ? > > > > True Faith. > > Unique Master. Put this card on a non-infernal mortal ally you > > control, or pay two pool to put this card on any non-infernal minion > > you control. Actions requiring Dominate or Presence cannot be directed > > at this minion. In combat, any damage this minion inflicts on an > > infernal minion is aggravated. Infernal minions cannot block or strike > > this minion. Burn this card if this minion becomes infernal. > > Thanks in advance . > > She can strike to end combat, since such a strike is not > striking the faithful minion. (She could not use superior > Catatonic Fear, however, since that would be striking the > faithful minion, which is prohibited.) tricky, but logical, since catatonic fear sup says "...and inflict 1 damage..", so the damage from catatonic fear is clearly an effect of Arika striking the minion. But what about Oubliete ? i know that oubliete is also a strike, but it says "[obt] Strike: combat ends. [OBT] As above, and the opposing minion burns one blood (or life) after combat). So, is the burn blood/life effect considered "striking" the minion, or is it considered some sort of side-effect of ending combat ? i believe i can supply you with some thoughts of mine, that support the later. I know that the difference between Cat. Fear and Oubliette is a thin one, but also consider the following: Catatonic Fear's damage (at sup) is only effective at close range, as, it is not a ranged strike, but a regular strike, so if the opposing minion is at long range, it just ends combat, as it wouldn't be possible to inflict any amount of damage to a minion at long range with a non-ranged strike, correct ? (even if the damage is inflicted after combat). Oubliette is also a non-ranged strike, but the burn blood/life effect applies even if the opposing minion is at long range. A fact that makes me believe that Oubliete's burn blood/life effect is not due to "striking the minion", as you cannot successfuly strike a minion at long range with a non-ranged strike. So, i believe that a ruling of yours that Oubliete's burn blood/life effect is not an effect caused by "striking the minion", but a side-effect from ending combat, would be according to the rules. And thus Gratiano could easily end the pity existence of a True Faith-Muddled Vampire Hunter, by playing Oubliete sup. Just my oppinion,

Reyda wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message de > news:Ctkbd.696224$Gx4.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> >>She can strike to end combat, since such a strike is not >>striking the faithful minion. (She could not use superior >>Catatonic Fear, however, since that would be striking the >>faithful minion, which is prohibited.) > > > Really ? > The catatonic damage is done after combat, and nothing indicates the damage > comes from the striking minion. One would think it's legal play ! > > Cardname: Catatonic Fear Cardtype: Combat Set: CE, FN, Sabbat, SW Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Presence Cardtext: [pre] Strike: combat ends. [PRE] As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close. I think the "inflict" is the key-word here. Opposing minion burns one blood/life, or even opposing minion takes one damage would most probably make it ok. Sten During

Jyhad_addict wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<Ctkbd.696224$Gx4.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... >>She can strike to end combat, since such a strike is not >>striking the faithful minion. (She could not use superior >>Catatonic Fear, however, since that would be striking the >>faithful minion, which is prohibited.) > > But what about Oubliete ? At superior, it is also a strike against the opposing minion. It is a strike. It affects the opposing minion. [ quoted text not captured ]

lehr...@gmail.com (lehrbuch) wrote in message news:<1022d6ec.0410...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Exactly, additionaly True Faith doesnot protect against actions or effects directed on him (just Dominate and Presence actions). And of course, protects from Striking the minion e.g. Entombment. On the other Hand, An infernal thaumaturgist can play Blood to Water to burn a True Faith Minion, because it is not a strike effect, so he is not striking the minion, he is just burning him... If you carefuly read the catatonic fear text, you can easily uinderstand, why the "inflict 1 damage" is considered "striking" the minion. On the other hand, in my previous postings, i explain why Oubliete's burn life/blood effect should not be considered "striking" the minion. The only thing left is to see what LSJ rules...

[ quoted text not captured ] Correct. One could also strike to harm retainers employed by the faithful [ quoted text not captured ]

Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<416FA718...@white-wolf.com>... >> Jyhad_addict wrote: >> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<Ctkbd.696224$Gx4.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... >> >>She can strike to end combat, since such a strike is not >> >>striking the faithful minion. (She could not use superior >> >>Catatonic Fear, however, since that would be striking the >> >>faithful minion, which is prohibited.) >> > >> > But what about Oubliete ? >> >> At superior, it is also a strike against the opposing minion. >> It is a strike. It affects the opposing minion. > ok, i accept this, but how can a non-ranged strike, affect a minion > at long range ? > The supperior is like this: "strike: the opposing minion burns 1 > blood or life". it is not a ranged strike, so if you are considered to > "strike" the opposing minion, then you shouldn't be able to affect him > if he is at long range. SCE is always effective at any range unless otherwise specified (like Catatonic Fear). Look here: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=eb4eb7f8.0406041017.403bbb1d%40posting.google.com

> SCE is always effective at any range unless otherwise specified (like > Catatonic Fear). > SCE is always effective at any range, Catatonic fear does not specify that it is not effective at l;ong range. It is also effective at long range. You got confused, it is about the burn blood/life portion of Oubliete sup that i am talking about.

"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message news:c6a50f81.04101...@posting.google.com... > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<416FA718...@white-wolf.com>... > > Jyhad_addict wrote: > > > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<Ctkbd.696224$Gx4.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > > >>She can strike to end combat, since such a strike is not > > >>striking the faithful minion. (She could not use superior > > >>Catatonic Fear, however, since that would be striking the > > >>faithful minion, which is prohibited.) > > > > > > But what about Oubliete ? > > > > At superior, it is also a strike against the opposing minion. > > It is a strike. It affects the opposing minion. > > ok, i accept this, but how can a non-ranged strike, affect a minion > at long range ? > > The supperior is like this: "strike: the opposing minion burns 1 > blood or life". it is not a ranged strike, so if you are considered to > "strike" the opposing minion, then you shouldn't be able to affect him > if he is at long range. Oubliette is effective at long range. It ends combat and has a "burn blood" effect on the opposing minion (applied after combat ends). It needn't say "ranged", since the S:CE doesn't care what the range is (by the rules) and the other effect is applied after the round ends (at which point there is no range). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<2ta5d2F...@uni-berlin.de>... > > Oubliette is effective at long range. It ends combat and has a "burn > blood" effect on the opposing minion (applied after combat ends). > It needn't say "ranged", since the S:CE doesn't care what the range > is (by the rules) and the other effect is applied after the round > ends (at which point there is no range). exactly, the Combat has ended and that means: that there is no combat, no range, no nothing, there is also no "striking the minion". The Strike has resolved! Combat has ended and now all that is left is to apply the side-effect, additional effect, call it what you will. The Strike has resolved, so there is no striking the minion. Catatonic Fear damage (as Drawing out the beast press step damage) is unpreventable, because you just apply the damage, there is no damage resolution phase and so there is no damage prevention phase. So, you are insisting on considering an effect as "striking a minion", even when this effect is after combat and the effect takes place after the strike has resolved. I am sorry, but i fail to see the logic in your ruling. I believe that the most logical view of the matter is to consider these effects, S:CE side-effects and not to consider them to be effects caused by "striking" the opposing minion. You strike CE, you don't strike the opposing minion and don't start to tell me that it affects the opposing minion, so it should be cosidered striking the minion, because there are other effects that affect minions as part of a strike and are not considered "striking" the minion. Like the Rotschreck "send to torpor" effect AFTER combat ends that is clearly not striking the minion, but a side-effect of CE. It is clearly an effect that is apllied AFTER combat has ended, SO after the strike has been resolved. It is not correct to consider an effect to be caused by "striking the minion", when the effect is aplied AFTER strike resolution.

Jyhad_addict wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<2ta5d2F...@uni-berlin.de>... >>Oubliette is effective at long range. It ends combat and has a "burn >>blood" effect on the opposing minion (applied after combat ends). >>It needn't say "ranged", since the S:CE doesn't care what the range >>is (by the rules) and the other effect is applied after the round >>ends (at which point there is no range). > > exactly, the Combat has ended and that means: > > that there is no combat, no range, no nothing, there is also no > "striking the minion". Incorrect. The resolution of Oubliette is: "combat ends and the opposing minion burns a blood. Note that under your spurious definitions, there is no "opposing minion", either. > The Strike has resolved! Then what effect makes the target of the strike lose a blood? (A: the currently-resolving strike -- note that this answer is also what causes the lose a blood effect to be lost if, say, Telepathic Tracking is played.) > Combat has ended and now all that is left is to apply the side-effect, > additional effect, call it what you will. OK. I call it: the effect of the strike. [snip further arguments to the contrary] -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

Jyhad_addict wrote: >>SCE is always effective at any range unless otherwise specified (like >>Catatonic Fear). >> > > > SCE is always effective at any range, Catatonic fear does not specify > that it is not effective at l;ong range. It is also effective at long > range. It will end combat at long range, yes. It will not inflict damage if the range was long, however. > You got confused, No. Just trying to head off questions. > it is about the burn blood/life portion of Oubliete > sup that i am talking about. Correct. And that's what I was answering. Oubliette is a SCE. [ quoted text not captured ]