Dawn Op do-over - Fortitudinous wishes

Howdy, Given that it was just reprinted in CE, it's unlikely that it will be changed anytime soon, but... Has it ever struck anyone else as odd that it's only dawn if a Dawn Operation fails? I've been trying to come up with good uses (caveat: for the Ventrue Antitribu, doh!) for what is one of the few really dangerous Fortitude cards, and it's really difficult. There are so many ways to get around a Dawn Op (maneuvers if no ranged combat, dodge, S:CE, prevent - basically any combat defense) that it's just not that threatening. At inferior, the few losers who can't deal with it are just going to opt out. At superior, well, you're usually risking a pretty big minion yourself if you have superior fortitude, and if you're playing it at superior, you _wanted_ to get blocked, so you've probably got some edge in the upcoming combat. But if you've gone to the trouble to design for combat, it'd be nice if you could choose the minion you wanted to fight, i.e. rush. But a successful rush _can't_ be a Dawn Op! (Yeah, yeah, Dawn Ops are for bruise bleed. But bruise bleed is terrifically difficult to do in most circumstances. Bounce hoses it badly, weenies make it a losing proposition, fatties usually pack plenty of defenses, and vs. intercept or rush it comes down to who has the more fearsome combat. True, perhaps the most evil bruise bleed combo is Dawn Op, Skin of Night, Weather Control, and true, that deck often features two !Ventrue prominently (Vincent, Marlene), but it's an awfully focussed (and thus fragile) deck.) Anyway, here's the current text: Dawn Operation [Jyhad, V:TES, CE] Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Fortitude [for] If this action is blocked, all damage inflicted to all vampires in the resulting combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block may now choose not to block. [FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out. And here's how I'd like it to read: Dawn Operation [Jyhad, V:TES, CE, Al's] Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Fortitude [for] For the remainder of this action, all damage inflicted to all vampires in combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block may now choose not to block. [FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out. Please make it so. Pleeeease? Do people think that my revision is unbalancing? One evil side effect: Hidden Lurkers/Fast Reactors are still part of the current action... It would still work the same way for bruise bleed, but now would be usable for rush as well. Also, as long as I'm making hopeless wishes, please make Ventrue Investment an Investment (like it really matters), and please, please, please, make a card like this: Skin of Really Tough Stuff [Al's] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Fortitude [for] This vampire may prevent 1 damage each round for the remainder of combat. [FOR] Prevent all damage from the opposing minion's strikes this round. I mean, come on, Chimerstry, Vicissitude, even Animalism and Serpentis for xsakes, have ways of reducing strength/preventing damage every round without spending blood and/or cards every round - why not Fortitude? Oh, and I don't know if it fits in with Fortitude in the WoD, but it'd be cute to have a Fortitude card that prevented environmental damage: Stop Touching Me! [Al's] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Fortitude [for] Prevent all damage from environmental sources this round. [FOR] As above, but for the duration of combat. Finally, can anyone think of a good reason to use the new Day Op rather than Daring the Dawn? I guess if you really want to go to torpor but agg won't send you there (Heart of Darkness)? Seems pretty wallpaper-y now... We now return you to your regularly scheduled rants and controversy, Alex PS - I disclaim any and all copyright, yadda, yadda... Please steal my ideas! Now!

>Dawn Operation [Jyhad, V:TES, CE, Al's] >Cardtype: Action Modifier >Discipline: Fortitude >[for] For the remainder of this action, all damage inflicted to all >vampires in combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block may >now choose not to block. >[FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out. > >Please make it so. Pleeeease? Do people think that my revision is >unbalancing? One evil side effect: Hidden Lurkers/Fast Reactors are >still part of the current action... It would still work the same way >for bruise bleed, but now would be usable for rush as well. I think it would be far too broken this way. pot/for decks would find it even easier to burn vampires. Who needs Burning Wrath? Jimmy Dunn Bum's Rushes you, plays Dawn Op to make the damage agg, Grapples you, and then does the Torn Signpost + Pushing the Limit for 6 agg. I think Dawn Operation is fine as it is. There are plenty of nasty tricks (Weather Control, Alejandro's special). In addition, Dawn Op at inferior can be used to entice others *not* to block, even if you don't have anything especially nasty. Consider it just like a bluff card. >Skin of Really Tough Stuff [Al's] >Cardtype: Combat >Cost: 1 blood >Discipline: Fortitude >[for] This vampire may prevent 1 damage each round for the remainder >of combat. >[FOR] Prevent all damage from the opposing minion's strikes this >round. No thanks. Fortitude can already do nasty things in Trap decks. >Stop Touching Me! [Al's] >Cardtype: Combat >Cost: 1 blood >Discipline: Fortitude >[for] Prevent all damage from environmental sources this round. >[FOR] As above, but for the duration of combat. The superior is bit too powerful. A single blood protects you from Carrions Crows, 3 Murder of Crows, a Ghoul Retainer's Flamethrower, and even Blood of Acid damage? Halcyan 2

> >Stop Touching Me! [Al's] > >Cardtype: Combat > >Cost: 1 blood > >Discipline: Fortitude > >[for] Prevent all damage from environmental sources this round. > >[FOR] As above, but for the duration of combat. > > The superior is bit too powerful. A single blood protects you from Carrions > Crows, 3 Murder of Crows, a Ghoul Retainer's Flamethrower, and even Blood of > Acid damage? > Why would this be too powerfull? How many decks play environmental damage in your metagame? I wouldn't even consider putting it any deck i play,....All it does is prevent against decks that do environmentaldamage-press (trap)....sounds to me a bit like a Letter of Vienna....( i mean only usable against very specific decks) (actually maybe the letter is better, because more people play Tremere (in any form) than (preventable) environmental-damage+press (i mean if he doesn't play press you can just play skin of rock in most cases) W

Greatings Halcyan2. Dawn Op is a great card for use in Gargoyle decks, as they have retainers that deal damage (go Razor Bats), and they are lethal when it´s aggrevated. Ronnie

wum...@attbi.com (Alex Broadhead) wrote in message news:<15a537b3.02120...@posting.google.com>... > Howdy, > <snip> > Anyway, here's the current text: > > Dawn Operation [Jyhad, V:TES, CE] > Cardtype: Action Modifier > Discipline: Fortitude > [for] If this action is blocked, all damage inflicted to all vampires > in the resulting combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block > may now choose not to block. > [FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out. > > And here's how I'd like it to read: > > Dawn Operation [Jyhad, V:TES, CE, Al's] > Cardtype: Action Modifier > Discipline: Fortitude > [for] For the remainder of this action, all damage inflicted to all > vampires in combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block may > now choose not to block. > [FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out. I believe that this is way too powerful. Shadow Twin decks would become insane. There are 11 vampires that have for & obt. So for zero blood you take an already +1 stealth action that you can still put more stealth on to send another vampire to torpor. No thanks keep it the way it is. Eric

wum...@attbi.com (Alex Broadhead) wrote: > Oh, and I don't know if it fits in with Fortitude in the WoD, but it'd > be cute to have a Fortitude card that prevented environmental damage: Played at inferior, Rolling with the Punches should allow you to prevent environmental damage in combat, as it doesn't specifically refer to strikes. Name: Rolling with the Punches [Sabbat, SW, FN] Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Fortitude [for] Prevent 1 damage. [FOR] This vampire burns 1 blood to prevent all damage from the opposing minion's strikes this round of combat. james o'rance http://www.geocities.com/dragon-dreamer

wum...@attbi.com (Alex Broadhead) wrote in message news:<15a537b3.02120...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Carzy Stuff!! > I mean, come on, Chimerstry, Vicissitude, even Animalism and Serpentis > for xsakes, have ways of reducing strength/preventing damage every > round without spending blood and/or cards every round - why not > Fortitude? > > Oh, and I don't know if it fits in with Fortitude in the WoD, but it'd > be cute to have a Fortitude card that prevented environmental damage: > > Stop Touching Me! [Al's] > Cardtype: Combat > Cost: 1 blood > Discipline: Fortitude > [for] Prevent all damage from environmental sources this round. > [FOR] As above, but for the duration of combat. > ARRRRGHHHH! U Are Crazy really!! It´s so powerful!!!!!! > Finally, can anyone think of a good reason to use the new Day Op > rather than Daring the Dawn? I guess if you really want to go to > torpor but agg won't send you there (Heart of Darkness)? Seems pretty > wallpaper-y now... > > We now return you to your regularly scheduled rants and controversy, > Alex > > PS - I disclaim any and all copyright, yadda, yadda... Please steal > my ideas! Now! Plz !! dont Think in NOTHING like THAT!!! :-D!! best regards!! aa spanish drunk guy.

"Eric_Schacter" <e.sch...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:40e63c0b.02120...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] That's why its limited to aggravating damage done IN COMBAT. :)

<snip> > best regards!! > aa spanish drunk guy. Man you're drunk alot. They have support groups for that, you know! ;)

Alex Broadhead wrote: > Oh, and I don't know if it fits in with Fortitude in the WoD, but it'd > be cute to have a Fortitude card that prevented environmental damage: Can't you already prevent environmental damage with all the Fortitude cards that don't say "...from a strike"? Like Skin of Rock? Or Indomitability? Or inferior RWtP? Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6 "she tore down Paris on the tail of Thom Paine but the left wing's broken and the right's insane" -Bowie

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20021205030122...@mb-fp.aol.com>... > >Dawn Operation [Jyhad, V:TES, CE, Al's] > >Cardtype: Action Modifier > >Discipline: Fortitude > >[for] For the remainder of this action, all damage inflicted to all > >vampires in combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block may > >now choose not to block. > >[FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out. > > > >Please make it so. Pleeeease? Do people think that my revision is > >unbalancing? One evil side effect: Hidden Lurkers/Fast Reactors are > >still part of the current action... It would still work the same way > >for bruise bleed, but now would be usable for rush as well. > > > I think it would be far too broken this way. pot/for decks would find it even > easier to burn vampires. Who needs Burning Wrath? Jimmy Dunn Bum's Rushes you, > plays Dawn Op to make the damage agg, Grapples you, and then does the Torn > Signpost + Pushing the Limit for 6 agg. > > I think Dawn Operation is fine as it is. There are plenty of nasty tricks > (Weather Control, Alejandro's special). In addition, Dawn Op at inferior can be > used to entice others *not* to block, even if you don't have anything > especially nasty. Consider it just like a bluff card. I agree, dawn operation is good enough as is, and the less errata, the better. > > >Skin of Really Tough Stuff [Al's] > >Cardtype: Combat > >Cost: 1 blood > >Discipline: Fortitude > >[for] This vampire may prevent 1 damage each round for the remainder > >of combat. > >[FOR] Prevent all damage from the opposing minion's strikes this > >round. > > No thanks. Fortitude can already do nasty things in Trap decks. > I'd agree on that, especially since its stacking and usable by fortitude weenies make the cost 2 blood and i think it would be balanced though (as in, i probably wouldn't play it :) ) > >Stop Touching Me! [Al's] > >Cardtype: Combat > >Cost: 1 blood > >Discipline: Fortitude > >[for] Prevent all damage from environmental sources this round. > >[FOR] As above, but for the duration of combat. > > The superior is bit too powerful. A single blood protects you from Carrions > Crows, 3 Murder of Crows, a Ghoul Retainer's Flamethrower, and even Blood of > Acid damage? > > Halcyan 2 well it costs a blood, is only usable in limited circumstances and its only "really useful" with superior fortitude, also it wouldnt make any other prevention cards obsolete. Maybe make the superior version something like this: [FOR] As above, and each round of combat, this vampire may burn 1 blood to prevent all damage from environmental sources for that round. so its kind of on par with superior mettle. just my 2 ct. -Bram Vink

"Jon Stahler" <sta...@ilir.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<7xLH9.2356$Vf3....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>... [ quoted text not captured ] I see that now. Read it too quick. I guess I was just so happy about having a comment that I jumped the gun. Oh well better luck next time.

Howdy Peter, > > Oh, and I don't know if it fits in with Fortitude in the WoD, but it'd > > be cute to have a Fortitude card that prevented environmental damage: > > Can't you already prevent environmental damage with all the Fortitude cards > that don't say "...from a strike"? Like Skin of Rock? Or Indomitability? Or > inferior RWtP? Sure. I really only see that card I suggested as being useful in either a metagame that's really into Animalism and/or certain kinds of Thaumaturgy combat or as a substitute for Skin of Night in a deck that's planning to damage itself. Since it only prevents environmental damage and not strikes, I just don't see it being all that useful in most decks - thus 'cute'. I'm leaning towards it being overcosted, if anything - if you're playing Weather Control with Skin of Night you take one normal damage, whereas with my card you'd pay one blood. Before the WC reprint it would have been horrific, of course. Now, though, Skin of Night wins every time, as it can also prevent strike damage at superior. Of course, I haven't thought a lot about the synergy with Bombs, Grenades, Breath of Dragon, etc. - they might make a difference. I'm really surprised and amused at the extreme range of reactions to my suggestions, BTW. Everything from 'Totally broken!" to "Wallpaper!"... Hope that helps, Alex

> I'm leaning towards it being overcosted, if anything - if you're > playing Weather Control with Skin of Night you take one normal damage, > whereas with my card you'd pay one blood. Before the WC reprint it > would have been horrific, of course. Now, though, Skin of Night wins > every time, as it can also prevent strike damage at superior. Of > course, I haven't thought a lot about the synergy with Bombs, > Grenades, Breath of Dragon, etc. - they might make a difference. > > I'm really surprised and amused at the extreme range of reactions to > my suggestions, BTW. Everything from 'Totally broken!" to > "Wallpaper!"... First, you can't prevent Weather Control. So, this card doesn't apply to it. The reason it is broken is that when combined with Skin of Steel it prevents all damage in every way to do it if that damage is preventable by Fortitude. Serpentis, Vissisitude, and Chimerstry all have one card that prevents damage. Fortitude has 14. It is both unnessasary and broken. -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

Howdy, > > I'm leaning towards it being overcosted, if anything - if you're > > playing Weather Control with Skin of Night you take one normal damage, > > whereas with my card you'd pay one blood. Before the WC reprint it > > would have been horrific, of course. Now, though, Skin of Night wins > > every time, as it can also prevent strike damage at superior. Of > > course, I haven't thought a lot about the synergy with Bombs, > > Grenades, Breath of Dragon, etc. - they might make a difference. > > > > I'm really surprised and amused at the extreme range of reactions to > > my suggestions, BTW. Everything from 'Totally broken!" to > > "Wallpaper!"... > > First, you can't prevent Weather Control. So, this card doesn't apply to > it. Doh! So much for designer intent. <insert smiley thing here> > The reason it is broken is that when combined with Skin of Steel it > prevents all damage in every way to do it if that damage is preventable by > Fortitude. In what sense of 'broken' is that broken? You can still be Coma'd, Entombed, Blood Raged/Furied, Weather Controlled, etc. Pretty much the only difference in protection over Superior Mettle that I can see is that Carrion Crows/Murder of Crows (and other Murder like effects - BTW is Drawing environmental?) are now ineffective, even in Traps at superior. This, to me, is structured more like a clan hoser or 'anti-X' than like an 'X' (in the standard formulation of brokenness). And we all know how feared clan hosers are... It's an invitation to clog your deck unnecessarily unless you can find a way to use it offensively (i.e. with Bombs). > Serpentis, Vissisitude, and Chimerstry all have one card that prevents > damage. Fortitude has 14. And yet still has no way to prevent one every turn with a single card, or to prevent environmental damage on a recurring basis. I mean, the fact that Obfuscate has a boatload of stealth cards has hardly prevented adding more in recent expansions. I'm all in favor of diversifying Fortitude's effects, but these were the cards that occurred to me, and they occurred to me as being proper to the mechanics of Fortitude. > It is both unnessasary and broken. So it's _both_ wallpaper (= redundant = unnecessary) _and_ broken? Did I mention that I was amused by the range of reactions to my card suggestions? I'm guessing my direct line to the design team is in imminent danger of being disconnected for my abuse of the creative process. I feel all dangerous and stuff. <insert smiley thing here> Seriously, _all_ cards are unnecessary - this one even more so, yes, in the sense that no one (other than me) was really clamoring for more or better Fortitude cards or for an environmental damage hoser. I don't see how it hurts to suggest more anyway. And as for broken, give me a break. Making Fortitude marginally better at what it does best is pretty much the standard strategy for card generation, as far as I can see. It's not like I was suggesting it get agg damage (OK, yes, I guess I was sort of) or bleed mods (heh) or intercept or something. Hope that helps, Alex

>> Serpentis, Vissisitude, and Chimerstry all have one card that prevents >> damage. Fortitude has 14. > >And yet still has no way to prevent one every turn with a single card, >or to prevent environmental damage on a recurring basis. I mean, the >fact that Obfuscate has a boatload of stealth cards has hardly >prevented adding more in recent expansions. I'm all in favor of >diversifying Fortitude's effects, but these were the cards that >occurred to me, and they occurred to me as being proper to the >mechanics of Fortitude. I still consider this irrelevant. Auspex is the premier intercept discipline, yet note how Obtenebration's Eyes of the Night outclasses Spirit's Touch. Obfuscate is the premier stealth discipline, but it's Obtenebration/Dominate that has Shroud of Absence and My-whatever which has Stone Travel. I mean next we should create a Flesh of Marble like card for Fortitude too? Fortitude is already powerful as it is. Just because it doesn't have every single type of damage prevention card that there is doesn't make it bad or weak. Halcyan 2

Howdy, [ quoted text not captured ] I'm not sure which 'this' is the this that you still consider irrelevant. But it looks to me like you might state your argument more concisely by saying that the text of any and all suggestions for Fortitude cards is irrelevant, as you think Fortitude is fine as is. If I suggest cards that are better or stronger those which exist now, you'll say that Fortitude is already powerful enough; if I suggest cards that are weaker or more corner-case, you'll say that they're unnecessary, as Fortitude already has better cards, and, anyway, is already powerful enough. I think I'm starting to get some insight into what it's like to be LSJ... As to the idea that Fortitude is already powerful - is it? I can think of a small number of 'feared' deck types that feature Fortitude: Undead Persistence, prevent and Disarm, Dawn Op/Skin of Night/Weather Control, and I guess Kiss of Ra is always lurking out there - but mostly I think of Fortitude as a support discipline, and a pretty second-tier one at that. (Well, OK, I guess maybe it makes the first tier on the strength of Freak Drive.) Fortitude's specialty is in damage prevention and healing, and is thus almost entirely reactive (unblockability being the big exception, but boy is it hard to use). It's entirely possible to go entire games without being able to use damage prevention or needing leave torpor, though you can usually arrange your own deck to require the latter and/or to need the blood from Restoration and its equivalents. I guess I tend to think Fortitude is pretty adequate at what it does, which really isn't very much. It's about as diversified as Obfuscate, but at least Obfuscate is an active, as opposed to reactive, Discipline; stealth gets things done. Adequate and powerful just ain't the same thing, though. Put it this way: Absent Freak Drive, how many decks would go out of their way to use Fortitude? Along those lines, you said earlier, "Fortitude can already do nasty things in Trap decks." Other than Undead Persistence, what are those things? Hint: handfuls of Skin of Rock don't count. I fear Trapparition. They're less common, but Horrid Form Traps are fearsome. I've never really seen a Skin of Adder/Trap defense, but it'd probably work OK. Why should Fortitude, the discipline of damage prevent, have to lose all of it's blood to get similar results? Because of the blood loss and torpor rescue, UP practically requires a whole deck designed around it; it'd be nice, in my opinion, to give Fortitude more casual Trap based defense, so you wouldn't have to commit a whole deck to it. Anyway, my perspective is probably colored by the fact that I'm (as I said in my first post) trying to use the Fortitude on the !Ventrue more effectively. With just Auspex and Dominate to go with it, they could really benefit from it having more oomph. True, the various pot/for minions would have at least a chance to reap an even greater benefit, though really I suspect that they'd just become less effective by trying to do even more card-intensive combos. I mean, in your nightmare example: "Jimmy Dunn Bum's Rushes you, plays Dawn Op to make the damage agg, Grapples you, and then does the Torn Signpost + Pushing the Limit for 6 agg." Jimmy has had to arrange a five card combo, and is going to go to torpor himself without a sixth card. And a maneuver (or prevent) would still screw him. Is six agg really that much more desirable than six normal damage for an additional two cards into the combo (the Dawn Op and the prevent)? For the !Ventrue, though, the realistic possibility that they could hit for just one agg might make for a decent rush concept. (Nose, Dawn Op, prevent, being the combo, with Telepathic Tracking in reserve.) Having their own Trapparition equivalent might make people think twice about blocking, without meaning that they have to go to torpor themselves (or spend 3 blood). I'm just brainstorming. That's way to many words spent on that. I'd just like to close by saying that I think people should be encouraged to come up with new card ideas, and that every discipline and clan stands to benefit. Feedback about wallpaperness, brokenness, overcosting, undercosting, poor correspondence with the WoD, is all good, but feedback along the lines of 'this discipline doesn't need new cards' just seems unhelpful. </rant>, Alex

>As to the idea that Fortitude is already powerful - is it? I can >think of a small number of 'feared' deck types that feature Fortitude: > Undead Persistence, prevent and Disarm, Dawn Op/Skin of >Night/Weather Control, and I guess Kiss of Ra is always lurking out >there - but mostly I think of Fortitude as a support discipline, and a >pretty second-tier one at that. (Well, OK, I guess maybe it makes the >first tier on the strength of Freak Drive.) Fortitude's specialty is >in damage prevention and healing, and is thus almost entirely reactive >(unblockability being the big exception, but boy is it hard to use). >It's entirely possible to go entire games without being able to use >damage prevention or needing leave torpor, though you can usually >arrange your own deck to require the latter and/or to need the blood >from Restoration and its equivalents. Basically just rephrasing what you are saying with my own spin. Damage prevention isn't good. Fortitude's strength is in action mods, especially Freak Drive and Daring the Dawn. Overall, it's an okay discipline. >Anyway, my perspective is probably colored by the fact that I'm (as I >said in my first post) trying to use the Fortitude on the !Ventrue >more effectively. With just Auspex and Dominate to go with it, they >could really benefit from it having more oomph. They could also benefit from having a reasonable number of their vampires with superior Fortitude. Poor discipline synergy isn't their only problem (as you are well aware). As for their disciplines, more of the same doesn't sound like a recipe for success. As for oomph (at least combatwise), they can now get .44s in play reliably, which gives a combat option if not a particularly great one. As for helping the woeful !Ventrue, right now, if they got some vampires and clan specific cards on the level of the Ventrue's best, they should be reasonably competitive. >That's way to many words spent on that. I'd just like to close by >saying that I think people should be encouraged to come up with new >card ideas, and that every discipline and clan stands to benefit. >Feedback about wallpaperness, brokenness, overcosting, undercosting, >poor correspondence with the WoD, is all good, but feedback along the >lines of 'this discipline doesn't need new cards' just seems >unhelpful. I think a bunch of disciplines could use more cards but not more of the same. No, it's not a good idea for every discipline to be able to do everything, but there's an enormous gap between some of the disciplines in terms of flexibility, power, and coolness. Fortitude could stand to do something more, but what that is isn't as clear to me as other, more limited, disciplines.

Howdy Curevei, Thanks for the confirmation (from one other player, at least) of my feelings on Fortitude. > As for oomph (at least combatwise), they can now get .44s in play reliably, > which gives a combat option if not a particularly great one. Shhhh! You're going to give away all the l33t s3cr3t deck tech I'm going to include in the !Ventrue CE newsletter whenever I get around to finishing it... (In the works since August, I swear!) Thanks again, Alex

>Shhhh! You're going to give away all the l33t s3cr3t deck tech I'm >going to include in the !Ventrue CE newsletter whenever I get around >to finishing it... (In the works since August, I swear!) LOL. I need to start working on my next issue as well (though I managed to get an issue out last month after a hiatus that lasted over a year). In your case however, I'm guessing you're just trying to come up with enough courage to resist the natural repugnance that the !Ventrue possess. C'mon Alex, show those pansies who's boss! =P Halcyan 2

> >That's way to many words spent on that. I'd just like to close by > >saying that I think people should be encouraged to come up with new > >card ideas, and that every discipline and clan stands to benefit. > >Feedback about wallpaperness, brokenness, overcosting, undercosting, > >poor correspondence with the WoD, is all good, but feedback along the > >lines of 'this discipline doesn't need new cards' just seems > >unhelpful. > > I think a bunch of disciplines could use more cards but not more of the same. > No, it's not a good idea for every discipline to be able to do everything, but > there's an enormous gap between some of the disciplines in terms of > flexibility, power, and coolness. > > Fortitude could stand to do something more, but what that is isn't as clear to > me as other, more limited, disciplines. Hmm, I think what would be best is something that fits in with the other fortitude cards, and which doesn't just grant to fortitude a few powers that are the traditional domain of an existing discipline. So: 1) Something which continues the same theme as Force of Will - a huge, heroic, self harming effort of some sort. Valor Reaction For: Only playable in response to an action directed at a minion you control. The action resolves, but has no effect. Put this card on the reacting vampire. This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap as normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card. FOR: This vampire suffers X damage to reduce a bleed against you by X. If X is greater than this vampire's capacity, burn this vampire. A self-harming card, but the inferior does allow a small vampire to take one for the team, to foil a Bum's Rush, Temptation, or similar. The inferior could become relatively affordable with Humanitas or similar, and could also justify the use of some scarcely-seen cards like The Deadliest Sin. The superior would work quite nicely with Blood Tears of Kephran, and possibly with some Minion Tap / Soul Gem combo. 2) Something to replicate the effect of a vampire allowing others to feed from it. Gift of Vitae +1 stealth action For: This vampire may transfer any amount of blood to another vampire. FOR: As above, and move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to your pool. Something like a combo of Rave (except blood only, and to *any* vampire) and Voter Cap. It would be pretty strong in certain combinations - eg Gift, Freak, Renewed Vigour, but that should be easily foiled by intercept. 3) Something for bruise and bleed... Determination Action For: Bleed. If combat occurs, this vampire may burn X blood to prevent X+1 damage, once per round, in the first and second rounds of combat. FOR: As above, and this vampire has +1 bleed for the duration of the action. No action modifiers may be played to increase the amount of the bleed. It's sort of a Night Moves for Fortitude. The limited duration should keep the inferior from being too abusable with trap combat, and the bleed-only use should keep it from wallpapering Hidden Strength. The superior is capped cos it would probably be too much to allow it to combo with Bonding.

icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com (Hollowboy) wrote in message news:<614f2a39.02121...@posting.google.com>... > 1) Something which continues the same theme as Force of Will - a huge, > heroic, self harming effort of some sort. > > Valor > Reaction > For: Only playable in response to an action directed at a minion you > control. The action resolves, but has no effect. Put this card on the > reacting vampire. > This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap > as normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card. > FOR: This vampire suffers X damage to reduce a bleed against you by X. > If X is greater than this vampire's capacity, burn this vampire. > > A self-harming card, but the inferior does allow a small vampire to > take one for the team, to foil a Bum's Rush, Temptation, or similar. makes fortitude weenies ultimate bodyguards, yeah > The inferior could become relatively affordable with Humanitas or > similar, and could also justify the use of some scarcely-seen cards > like The Deadliest Sin. The superior would work quite nicely with ex nihilo?

> > A self-harming card, but the inferior does allow a small vampire to > > take one for the team, to foil a Bum's Rush, Temptation, or similar. > > makes fortitude weenies ultimate bodyguards, yeah Yeah, they jump in front of the bullets - you are basically rotschreck-ing one of your own minions to neuter a hostile action. > > > The inferior could become relatively affordable with Humanitas or > > similar, and could also justify the use of some scarcely-seen cards > > like The Deadliest Sin. The superior would work quite nicely with > > ex nihilo? Good point. But it either requires skill cards (in which case you may as well add Dom to deflect), or one of the few vampires who has Nec FOR - and they are all bloodlines. If you are playing Nec FOR vamps, then you have Auspex, and Auspex has easier ways to deal with bleed, so it won't help out by much. Then there are the Semedi, with Nec FOR, and no way of dealing with bleed. This is part of why the Semedi are crap, so giving them a bleed soaker is a good thing. But if you wanted to use Valor with the Semedi, Regenerative Blood + blood gain would be easier to use than Ex Nihilo.

>Valor >Reaction >For: Only playable in response to an action directed at a minion you >control. The action resolves, but has no effect. Put this card on the >reacting vampire. >This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap >as normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card. >FOR: This vampire suffers X damage to reduce a bleed against you by X. >If X is greater than this vampire's capacity, burn this vampire. I think the card is too overpowered. With the superior, you could have a FOR weenie soak an 8+ bleed for you. Hmmm...3 or 4 cap vampire or 8+ pool? Sounds like a really good bargain. Also, the inferior has a nice idea, but it just shifts the balance towards weenies again. Decks with large vampires have fewer minion actions than weenie decks. If you can effectively trade one of your weenie's actions for one of your predator's big vampire actions, you easily come out ahead. Yeah, you need to rescue, but it's not like you lost any blood in playing the card and if you're playing weenies, one lost action isn't that big of a problem. >Gift of Vitae >+1 stealth action >For: This vampire may transfer any amount of blood to another vampire. >FOR: As above, and move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to your >pool. Hmmm...I'm a little wary of Hungry Coyote + Aaron's Feeding Razor + new NRA allowing lots of blood gain. Even though you can already use Rave now, this card would make such a strategy even more powerful. Voter Cap for example requires you to pass a vote (which is much harder than simply performing an action). I think there's a reason why the !Toreador are the only ones with access to such a reliable action to gain pool. >Determination >Action >For: Bleed. If combat occurs, this vampire may burn X blood to prevent >X+1 damage, once per round, in the first and second rounds of combat. >FOR: As above, and this vampire has +1 bleed for the duration of the >action. No action modifiers may be played to increase the amount of >the bleed. > >It's sort of a Night Moves for Fortitude. It's an interesting idea but I don't really think Fortitude needs bleed cards. Once again, not every discipline should be able to do everything. Which is why I'm fine with no Potence bleed cards, no Presence prevent cards, no Fortitude vote gaining cards, no Obfuscate intercept, or no Auspex stealth. Anyway, once again, Fortitude already does have Force of Will. More than enough for a non-bleed discipline. Halcyan 2

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20021211020743...@mb-fo.aol.com>... > >Valor > >Reaction > >For: Only playable in response to an action directed at a minion you > >control. The action resolves, but has no effect. Put this card on the > >reacting vampire. > >This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap > >as normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card. > >FOR: This vampire suffers X damage to reduce a bleed against you by X. > >If X is greater than this vampire's capacity, burn this vampire. > > > I think the card is too overpowered. With the superior, you could have a FOR > weenie soak an 8+ bleed for you. Hmmm...3 or 4 cap vampire or 8+ pool? Sounds > like a really good bargain. That example is actually low-powered compared to Archon Investigation. The costs are similar, but with Valor, you simply *prevent* the bleed - whereas with AI the bleeder will burn. If you still think that this example makes Valor too strong, maybe it should be worded as: FOR: This vampire suffers X damage to reduce a bleed against you by X. X may not be greater than this vampire's capacity. > > Also, the inferior has a nice idea, but it just shifts the balance towards > weenies again. Decks with large vampires have fewer minion actions than weenie > decks. If you can effectively trade one of your weenie's actions for one of > your predator's big vampire actions, you easily come out ahead. Yeah, you need > to rescue, but it's not like you lost any blood in playing the card and if > you're playing weenies, one lost action isn't that big of a problem. I copied the wording from Rotschreck - it costs a rescue and an untap, so it comes to 2 actions lost, and 2 blood lost, and vulnerability to diablerie / gaverobbing in the meantime. But maybe there is still potential for abuse... the most abusive use I thought of is situations where the rescue is not even worthwhile. For example, use Nosferatu royalty to make progeny with fortitude, and then use the progeny to block or valorously soak a wide range of hostile actions. I sthis overpowered? Probably not, compared to the standard overpowered shit like weenie dom bleed. It's pretty conditional, for a start, and requires setting up. If it *were* over-powered, then maybe it needs something else, like to be only playable by a unique vampire (no Aabbt, no Embrace etc), or to cost a blood. I'm glad you liked the idea, at least :-) > > >Gift of Vitae > >+1 stealth action > >For: This vampire may transfer any amount of blood to another vampire. > >FOR: As above, and move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to your > >pool. > > Hmmm...I'm a little wary of Hungry Coyote + Aaron's Feeding Razor + new NRA > allowing lots of blood gain. Even though you can already use Rave now, this > card would make such a strategy even more powerful. Voter Cap for example > requires you to pass a vote (which is much harder than simply performing an > action). I think there's a reason why the !Toreador are the only ones with > access to such a reliable action to gain pool. That's some set-up required, but point taken. You don't wan't to give anyone a free lunch. Maybe: Gift of Vitae 1 blood +1 stealth action For: this vampire may burn X blood to give another vampire X+1 blood FOR: as above and transfer up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to your pool Makes it less cycleable, since you cant play it for free to move zero blood. If it was *still* too strong, the superior could be tweaked to gain only 1 pool at best. > > >Determination > >Action > >For: Bleed. If combat occurs, this vampire may burn X blood to prevent > >X+1 damage, once per round, in the first and second rounds of combat. > >FOR: As above, and this vampire has +1 bleed for the duration of the > >action. No action modifiers may be played to increase the amount of > >the bleed. > > > >It's sort of a Night Moves for Fortitude. > > It's an interesting idea but I don't really think Fortitude needs bleed cards. > Once again, not every discipline should be able to do everything. Which is why > I'm fine with no Potence bleed cards, no Presence prevent cards, no Fortitude > vote gaining cards, no Obfuscate intercept, or no Auspex stealth. > > Anyway, once again, Fortitude already does have Force of Will. More than enough > for a non-bleed discipline. Yep, I see your point. But it is a pretty specialised "I'm coming at you like a fucken' TANK" bleed card, so it seems (to me) to fit with fortitude quite nicely. > > > Halcyan 2

"Hollowboy" <icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:614f2a39.02121...@posting.google.com... > halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20021211020743...@mb-fo.aol.com>... > > >Valor > > >Reaction > > >For: Only playable in response to an action directed at a minion you > > >control. The action resolves, but has no effect. Put this card on the > > >reacting vampire. > > >This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap > > >as normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card. > > >FOR: This vampire suffers X damage to reduce a bleed against you by X. > > >If X is greater than this vampire's capacity, burn this vampire. > > > > > > I think the card is too overpowered. With the superior, you could have a FOR > > weenie soak an 8+ bleed for you. Hmmm...3 or 4 cap vampire or 8+ pool? Sounds > > like a really good bargain. > > That example is actually low-powered compared to Archon Investigation. > The costs are similar, but with Valor, you simply *prevent* the bleed > - whereas with AI the bleeder will burn. But AI doesn't have an inferior that you can *almost always* use when the superior effect isn't relevant. This card is WAY stronger than AI. > If you still think that this example makes Valor too strong, maybe it > should be worded as: > > FOR: This vampire suffers X damage to reduce a bleed against you by X. > X may not be greater than this vampire's capacity. That is the logical fix, yes. And since most players agree that pool ~= blood ~= pool, this *seems* balanced. [snip other comments] > > > > Halcyan 2 -- Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

"Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote in message news:dsXJ9.49021$r4.36...@news1.west.cox.net... > > "Hollowboy" <icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:614f2a39.02121...@posting.google.com... > > halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20021211020743...@mb-fo.aol.com>... [someone else wrote] > > > >Valor > > > >Reaction > > > >For: Only playable in response to an action directed at a minion you > > > >control. The action resolves, but has no effect. Put this card on the > > > >reacting vampire. > > > >This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap > > > >as normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card. > > > >FOR: This vampire suffers X damage to reduce a bleed against you by X. > > > >If X is greater than this vampire's capacity, burn this vampire. > > > > > > I think the card is too overpowered. With the superior, you could have a FOR > > > weenie soak an 8+ bleed for you. Hmmm...3 or 4 cap vampire or 8+ pool? Sounds > > > like a really good bargain. > > > > That example is actually low-powered compared to Archon Investigation. > > The costs are similar, but with Valor, you simply *prevent* the bleed > > - whereas with AI the bleeder will burn. > > But AI doesn't have an inferior that you can *almost always* use when > the superior effect isn't relevant. But the inferior of this is pretty costly to use - you send one of your own vampires to torpor (= at least a 2-blood cost, not exactly negligible). You can't just use it all the time to get it out of your hand. (Plus, AI doesn't even require a discipline.) > This card is WAY stronger than AI. Which would you rather do, burn the bleeding Meth's vamp, or burn your own? Hmmm... tough choice. :-) It's also not overpowered compared to bleed bounce: which would you rather do, burn your 5-cap vampire (lowest with FOR) to cancel a bleed of 8, or make your prey deal with the bleed of 8? I kind of like this idea, it's interesting. The inferior may be a little strong-effect (even though it has a high cost) for an inferior; perhaps it should say "when an ally or vampire of the same age or younger is acting". > > If you still think that this example makes Valor too strong, maybe it > > should be worded as: > > > > FOR: This vampire suffers X damage to reduce a bleed against you by X. > > X may not be greater than this vampire's capacity. > > That is the logical fix, yes. And since most players agree that pool ~= > blood ~= pool, this *seems* balanced. But then it would be no better than Minion Tap. So why would you play it? Josh too strong is bad, sure, but so is too weak

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:atld37$7q1j$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de... [ quoted text not captured ] The inferior of SEVERAL cards is pretty worthless -- you generally play those particular cards ONLY for the superior -- so I don't really consider this a valid or fair argument. > > This card is WAY stronger than AI. > > Which would you rather do, burn the bleeding Meth's vamp, or burn > your own? Hmmm... tough choice. :-) AI is a Master card, of which you can only play ONE per turn. This is not. I stand by my argument. > It's also not overpowered compared to bleed bounce: which would > you rather do, burn your 5-cap vampire (lowest with FOR) to > cancel a bleed of 8, or make your prey deal with the bleed of > 8? > > I kind of like this idea, it's interesting. The inferior may > be a little strong-effect (even though it has a high cost) for > an inferior; perhaps it should say "when an ally or vampire of > the same age or younger is acting". I *do* agree that it is an interesting idea, and a card which would be both valid and popular IMHO. > > > If you still think that this example makes Valor too strong, maybe it > > > should be worded as: > > > > > > FOR: This vampire suffers X damage to reduce a bleed against you by X. > > > X may not be greater than this vampire's capacity. > > > > That is the logical fix, yes. And since most players agree that pool ~= > > blood ~= pool, this *seems* balanced. > > But then it would be no better than Minion Tap. So why would you > play it? Easy: because it's not a Master card. > > Josh > > too strong is bad, sure, but so is too weak Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) [ quoted text not captured ]

>The inferior of SEVERAL cards is pretty worthless -- you generally play = >those particular cards ONLY for the superior -- so I don't really = >consider this a valid or fair argument. That's an interesting point. I'm curious as to what cards this generally applies to. For me, I'd say: Pulse of the Canaille Edge Vitiation Renewed Vigor (inf obeah doesn't suck but the superior is just about always used. Except for Purge decks using the outferior). Sensory Deprivation Clarifications: I don't mean the inferior is completely worthless. There are always corner-case scenarios where it's useful. I just mean cases where the superior is used 98% more often than the inferior (and not just because it's the same effect but a bit better like 1R vs. 2R or anything with "as above." I'm talking about inferiors and superiors with significantly different effects). Similarly, cards that completely suck (both inferior or superior) don't count either. Outferiors aren't applicable either. On the other side, I don't think I've even seen a Distraction used at superior either (though it is rather useful). Whenever I see Distraction played, it's usually used for cycling. I also don't recall seeing superior Blackmail or Rayzeel's Song either. Halcyan 2

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20021216223028...@mb-fe.aol.com>... > >The inferior of SEVERAL cards is pretty worthless -- you generally play = > >those particular cards ONLY for the superior -- so I don't really = > >consider this a valid or fair argument. > > > That's an interesting point. I'm curious as to what cards this generally > applies to. For me, I'd say: > > Pulse of the Canaille > Edge Vitiation > Renewed Vigor (inf obeah doesn't suck but the superior is just about always > used. Except for Purge decks using the outferior). > Sensory Deprivation > Kiss of Ra Telepathic Misdirection Song in the dark Decapitate .... And LOTS more. J

Halcyan 2 wrote: >>The inferior of SEVERAL cards is pretty worthless -- you generally play = >>those particular cards ONLY for the superior -- so I don't really = >>consider this a valid or fair argument. > > > > That's an interesting point. I'm curious as to what cards this generally > applies to. For me, I'd say: > > Pulse of the Canaille Actually won a leisure-game by playing Pulse at inferior :) Sten During

joen...@hotmail.com (Jeroen) wrote in message news:<5f0d2397.02121...@posting.google.com>... > halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20021216223028...@mb-fe.aol.com>... <general snippage> > > >The inferior of SEVERAL cards is pretty worthless -- you generally play = > > >those particular cards ONLY for the superior -- so I don't really = > > >consider this a valid or fair argument. > > > > > Telepathic Misdirection Sure, there's cheaper intercept than Telepathic Misdirection Inferior, but it CAN really help... Tobias Deventer

On 17 Dec 2002, Tobias wrote: > Sure, there's cheaper intercept than Telepathic Misdirection Inferior, > but it CAN really help... Right. I think, when assessing a card, you have to look at the opportunity cost associated with that card (duh). Cards that do two very different things (or three... mmmhhh.... bloodlines) are, simplisticly, twice as likely to be playable at any given moment. Telepathic Misdirection is a perfect example of what I'm talking about; bounce *or* intercept. Some games you may need the bounce, but other times the bounce is useless and the +1 intercept is timely. In this light, paying one blood for the +1 intercept is a small price to ensure that the cards in your deck will remain useful across a wide span of tables. David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20021216223028...@mb-fe.aol.com>... > On the other side, I don't think I've even seen a Distraction used at > superior either (though it is rather useful). Whenever I see Distraction > played, it's usually used for cycling. I built a Dom/Cel deck that used Distraction superior for 'sexy bleeding'. Deck worked real well since most of the vampires were 4-7 capactity. ----------------------------- Ethan Burrow - Texas Justicar http://texas.vekn.org/ http://monger.vekn.org/

joen...@hotmail.com (Jeroen) wrote in message news:<5f0d2397.02121...@posting.google.com>... > Telepathic Misdirection ??? Really??!? What do you do with them in a 2 player game then? Wait for your discard phase? I can't imagine you'd never want the intercept during the entire game. [ quoted text not captured ]

Halcyan 2 wrote: > Pulse of the Canaille > Edge Vitiation > Renewed Vigor (inf obeah doesn't suck but the superior is just about always > used. Except for Purge decks using the outferior). > Sensory Deprivation Clearly, you forgot about Thoughts Betrayed. Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6 "she tore down Paris on the tail of Thom Paine but the left wing's broken and the right's insane" -Bowie

Jeroen wrote: > Telepathic Misdirection ??? Wha? Sure, Telepathic Misdirection is kind of sucky as +1 intercept for 1 blood, but if you want versitile defense for minimum card slots, TM can't be beat--bleed bounce and light intercept in one card. I had a very solid deck for a while (Toreador tap-n-bleed) that used 10 TM's as its only auspex cards, and used them as intercept just as often as bounce. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:<BA250D09.AD27%PD...@bigplanet.com>... > Jeroen wrote: > > > Telepathic Misdirection > > ??? Wha? yup > > Sure, Telepathic Misdirection is kind of sucky as +1 intercept for 1 blood, > but if you want versitile defense for minimum card slots, TM can't be > beat--bleed bounce and light intercept in one card. I had a very solid deck > for a while (Toreador tap-n-bleed) that used 10 TM's as its only auspex > cards, and used them as intercept just as often as bounce. > > As you said: 1 blood for 1 intercept is sucky (for Auspex). This is IMO only usefull when you're down to 2 players. Then again, a lot of decks using this card don't want to block. versitile? of course! Love this card. The question was about sucky inferiors (as compared to the superior) NOT about sucky cards. Jeroen

>> Pulse of the Canaille >> Edge Vitiation >> Renewed Vigor (inf obeah doesn't suck but the superior is just about always >> used. Except for Purge decks using the outferior). >> Sensory Deprivation > >Clearly, you forgot about Thoughts Betrayed. Amusingly enough, I did see a Thoughts Betrayed get played at a recent storyline tournament. Of course I think the person playing it was a newbie, and the one extra damage really wasn't worth the two blood (since the person who played it wasn't using a combat deck). He just played it at inferior and the rest of us were like "umm..okay..." =P I do however agree that Thoughts Betrayed deserves to join the ranks of those whose inferiors suck most royally. Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: :::: Pulse of the Canaille :::: Edge Vitiation :::: Renewed Vigor (inf obeah doesn't suck but the superior is just :::: about always used. Except for Purge decks using the outferior). :::: Sensory Deprivation ::: ::: Clearly, you forgot about Thoughts Betrayed. (snip) :: I do however agree that Thoughts Betrayed deserves to join the :: ranks of those whose inferiors suck most royally. :: :: Halcyan 2 yes but it sucks for a purpose : it prevents you from putting too many ThouB' in your deck because it's useless for the smaller vamps you may have.

Halcyan 2 wrote: > Amusingly enough, I did see a Thoughts Betrayed get played at a recent > storyline tournament. Of course I think the person playing it was a newbie, and > the one extra damage really wasn't worth the two blood (since the person who > played it wasn't using a combat deck). He just played it at inferior and the > rest of us were like "umm..okay..." =P The tournament in Charleston this past Saturday saw a TB played at inferior against one of my minions. The extra damage was needed to torporize my vampire, and the poor Donal had apparently run out of the more cost efficient Increased Strength (since he was still using some Potence strike to do the basic damage). He normally played it at superior to ward against S:CE, of course. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Halcyan 2 wrote: > >> Pulse of the Canaille >> Edge Vitiation >> Renewed Vigor (inf obeah doesn't suck but the superior is just about >> always used. Except for Purge decks using the outferior). >> Sensory Deprivation > > Clearly, you forgot about Thoughts Betrayed. > Ah Hem! Deck Name: Dragos Betrays Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 7, Max: 28, Avg: 4.00) --------------------------------------------- 5 Dragos ANI AUS vic 7, Tzimisce 1 Royce dom 1, Pander 1 Samson dom 2, Ventrue Antitribu 2 Ohanna dom 2, Malkavian 2 Mustafa Rahman dom 2, Tremere 1 Christine Boscacci dom vic 2, Pander Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (14 cards) 8 Dominate 6 Blood Dolls Action (12 cards) 12 Bum's Rush Action Modifier (8 cards) 8 Threats Reaction (14 cards) 4 Enhanced Senses 10 Read the Winds Combat (42 cards) 6 Telepathic Tracking 6 Carrion Crows 30 Thoughts Betrayed Colin Riggs

"Colin Riggs" <colin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:atpvof$1fk30$1...@ID-146737.news.dfncis.de... > Peter D Bakija wrote: > > Halcyan 2 wrote: > > > >> Pulse of the Canaille > >> [...] > > > > Clearly, you forgot about Thoughts Betrayed. > > > > Ah Hem! > > Deck Name: Dragos Betrays [deck snipped] Yeah, I'm gonna have to say that's still bad. :-) Since the Thoughts Betrayed damage comes during normal strike resolution, it's lost if the opponent Strikes: Combat Ends. Of course, when you get superior, that won't matter anymore... but Potence for Fists of Death + Immortal Grapple (or even just the Telepathic Trackings) would probably be a little more efficient, and work before you get superior... :-) Nice one though, that's probably the best use of inferior Thoughts Betrayed I've ever seen. You should make this deck. Josh dragos, you traitor!

"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3e0060d1$0$3832$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] It doesn't suck so much. I used it on inferior yesterday to torporize a couple of vamps. It's like a tacky Carrion Crows for dominate, which is unexpected by most players and that makes it effective. /Henrik

henrik ericsson wrote: :::::: Clearly, you forgot about Thoughts Betrayed. ::: (snip) ::::: I do however agree that Thoughts Betrayed deserves to join the ::::: ranks of those whose inferiors suck most royally. ::::: ::::: Halcyan 2 ::: ::: yes but it sucks for a purpose : it prevents you from putting too ::: many ThouB' in your deck because it's useless for the smaller ::: vamps you may have. :: :: It doesn't suck so much. I used it on inferior yesterday to :: torporize a couple of vamps. :: :: It's like a tacky Carrion Crows for dominate, which is unexpected :: by most players and that makes it effective. hell yes, never underestimate the surprise factor =)

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20021218045100...@mb-ba.aol.com>... > >> Pulse of the Canaille > >> Edge Vitiation > >> Renewed Vigor (inf obeah doesn't suck but the superior is just about always > >> used. Except for Purge decks using the outferior). > >> Sensory Deprivation > > > >Clearly, you forgot about Thoughts Betrayed. > > > Amusingly enough, I did see a Thoughts Betrayed get played at a recent > storyline tournament. Of course I think the person playing it was a newbie, and > the one extra damage really wasn't worth the two blood (since the person who > played it wasn't using a combat deck). He just played it at inferior and the > rest of us were like "umm..okay..." =P Heeeeey... i actually saw someone go to torpor from a TB inferior 1 pt. of damage... don't knock it... you guys are bitching about bad inferiors what about those ULTRA crappy bloodline cards like Steal the mind, Panacea, Burning Touch, Basilisk's Touch ?

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > "Colin Riggs" <colin...@yahoo.com> wrote: [snip] > > Deck Name: Dragos Betrays > > [deck snipped] > > Yeah, I'm gonna have to say that's still bad. :-) As the (ever-so-humble) creator of one or two "good" Dragos decks, I have to agree. :) But Telepathic Tracking is really good in any Dragos-based deck, so I can't fault that card choice. Some Taste of Vitae would be helpful, though. Even Dragos runs low on blood at times, especially after playing Read the Winds. Also, Haven Affinity helps. And maneuvers. Back in the day, Dragos + FOR + n x Drawing Out the Beast would have been funny, but it doesn't work very well these days. > Of course, when you get superior, that won't matter anymore... > but Potence for Fists of Death + Immortal Grapple (or even > just the Telepathic Trackings) would probably be a little > more efficient, and work before you get superior... :-) POT is *so* played out, Josh. FOR is where it's at. Or POT/THA. I think that's my next Dragos deck. Dragos + a million, billion skill cards. > Nice one though, that's probably the best use of inferior > Thoughts Betrayed I've ever seen. You should make this deck. It's kind of sad though, because it's still *so* not good. > dragos, you traitor! Sketchy, Josh...you're slipping. :) Xian

Jeroen wrote: > As you said: 1 blood for 1 intercept is sucky (for Auspex). This is > IMO only usefull when you're down to 2 players. Then again, a lot of > decks using this card don't want to block. Or, ya know, you want intercept. A card that has two wildily different uses (intercept *or* bounce, say) is always going to be useful. You get two different capabilities for a single card slot. If Telepathic Misdirection didn't give you intercept at inferior, and you wanted some intercept in a deck with Auspex bleed bounce, that is another bunch of card slots. TM gives you both at once. Sure, compared to Enhanced Senses, TM at inferior isn't such a good deal. But if you want to maximize defense possibilities while minimizing card slot useage, then the inferior of TM suddenly looks like a really good deal. Sure, if you are making a heavy intercept deck with lots of different auspex cards, using inferior TM is rarely going to be a good idea. But if you are making a non intercept heavy deck, and you put in, like, 8-10 TM, you suddenly have access to both bounce and light intercept. Which is probably better than simply bounce *or* light intercept. [ quoted text not captured ]

Colin Riggs wrote: > Ah Hem! > > Deck Name: Dragos Betrays... Sweet jesus and baby jesus. I stand corrected. [ quoted text not captured ]

freakdrivr wrote: :: you guys are bitching about bad inferiors what about those ULTRA :: crappy bloodline cards like Steal the mind, Panacea, Burning Touch, :: Basilisk's Touch ? things that could help : Steal the mind : The vampire playing steal the mind untaps at the end of the action. Panacea : add 1 life to the ally regardless of starting amount . / as above and untap it right away. Burning touch : remove the over crappy "any minion currently attempting to block may choose not to" clause. Basilisk touch : remove the younger vampire close =)

Xian wrote: > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> Yeah, I'm gonna have to say that's still bad. :-) > > As the (ever-so-humble) creator of one or two "good" Dragos decks, I > have to agree. :) Me too, I threw it together this morning in 2 minutes. > > But Telepathic Tracking is really good in any Dragos-based deck, so I > can't fault that card choice. Some Taste of Vitae would be helpful, > though. Even Dragos runs low on blood at times, especially after > playing Read the Winds. Also, Haven Affinity helps. And maneuvers. Taste would be good. I'm not sure that you need the manuvers given the card text, but I'm too lazy to look it up. > >> Of course, when you get superior, that won't matter anymore... >> but Potence for Fists of Death + Immortal Grapple (or even >> just the Telepathic Trackings) would probably be a little >> more efficient, and work before you get superior... :-) > > POT is *so* played out, Josh. FOR is where it's at. Or POT/THA. I > think that's my next Dragos deck. Dragos + a million, billion skill > cards. The only advantage this has over POT, is that you need lots and lots of prevention cards to stop that much environmental damage. The real problem is that you can only do so much damage with 30 Thoughts Betrayed. Thats only 5 6caps, or 3 ten caps. It might be better to decrease the TB and put in more Telepathic trackings and Crows. Maybe that would be too effective for a trick deck though. > >> Nice one though, that's probably the best use of inferior >> Thoughts Betrayed I've ever seen. You should make this deck. > > It's kind of sad though, because it's still *so* not good. > Inferior Thought's Betrayed will never be as good as Cardona with the Ankara citadel playing inferior pulse. Colin Riggs

"Xian" <xb...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:dbc1153.02121...@posting.google.com... > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: [re Dragos makes people's thoughts betray them] > > Of course, when you get superior, that won't matter anymore... > > but Potence for Fists of Death + Immortal Grapple (or even > > just the Telepathic Trackings) would probably be a little > > more efficient, and work before you get superior... :-) > > POT is *so* played out, Josh. FOR is where it's at. Or POT/THA. I > think that's my next Dragos deck. Dragos + a million, billion skill > cards. FOR? Even worse than POT! Even POT/THA is cliched now. But DOM combat is still fresh. ;-) "Dragos and the night of a million billion skill cards"? Is it just me or would a million billion ninjas still be better? > > dragos, you traitor! > > Sketchy, Josh...you're slipping. :) Yes, I certainly am. I don't know where my inspiration has gone... Josh fuck that fuckass, man, he deserved that shit

"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3e00e5d9$0$18818$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>... > > Burning touch : remove the over crappy "any minion currently attempting to > block may choose not to" clause. Actually... BT inf saved me once, cause the blocker decided not to block after I played it. I had no combat cards in hand.

"Colin Riggs" <colin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<atqq8q$1pqt2$1...@ID-146737.news.dfncis.de>... > Xian wrote: [snip deck being not so good] > Me too, I threw it together this morning in 2 minutes. That is frequently a leading indicator of sucking. Though not always. [improvements] > Taste would be good. I'm not sure that you need the manuvers given the card > text, but I'm too lazy to look it up. I doesn't say ranged, it ain't ranged damage. :) > The only advantage this has over POT, is that you need lots and lots of > prevention cards to stop that much environmental damage. The real problem is There is that. Seems like people hardly ever bother to pack Skin of Rock or Resilience these days. It's all about the Rolling with the Punches. > that you can only do so much damage with 30 Thoughts Betrayed. Thats only 5 Yes, that is a drawback. That and the needing 2 DOM skill cards. ;) > 6caps, or 3 ten caps. It might be better to decrease the TB and put in more > Telepathic trackings and Crows. Maybe that would be too effective for a > trick deck though. Nah. You can never go wrong with Carrion Crows. > Inferior Thought's Betrayed will never be as good as Cardona with the Ankara > citadel playing inferior pulse. Cardona? :P When you think about it, though, Cardano with Ankara Citadel makes *everything* better. Xian

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > "Xian" <xb...@qwest.net> wrote: > > > POT is *so* played out, Josh. FOR is where it's at. Or POT/THA. I > > think that's my next Dragos deck. Dragos + a million, billion skill > > cards. > > FOR? Even worse than POT! Even POT/THA is cliched now. But You're probably right...I'm so not "with it" anymore. I don't even know what the "lingo" the "kids" are using when they "rap" with each other these "days". Sad that POT/THA is cliched now, though. What with posting the first ever POT/THA deck (to my knowledge, anyway) way back when. Hmm. Looks like I'm getting complacent. I should stop talking about the tech that I developed back in the day, and start thinking up new tech, hmm? Otherwise Ben is going to totally destroy me with his new l33t seekrit Ravnos hax0r tech next year at GenCon. > DOM combat is still fresh. ;-) Too true. I think that the best part would be that you could get Dragos to play all those Thoughts Betrayed and then he could use Absorb the Mind to dodge. :) > "Dragos and the night of a million billion skill cards"? Is it > just me or would a million billion ninjas still be better? What *can't* a million billion ninjas beat? Aside from the Tick, of course. Xian resting on his laurels, apparently

>Burning touch : remove the over crappy "any minion currently attempting to >block may choose not to" clause. Why? So it automatically kills allies with 1 life? And it can bypass even Ambrosius' immunity? If you want to remove the "any minion currently attempting to block may choose not to," then you should make the card only affect vampires then. >Basilisk touch : remove the younger vampire close =) Once again, the "younger vampire" thing is the only factor keeping this card relatively balanced. Without the clause, it's like a Disarm where all you have to do is actually do damage (as opposed to doing more damage) to torporize a vamp. Halcyan 2 kiasyd and !salubri suck. let's keep it that way.

On 19 Dec 2002, Xian wrote: > hmm? Otherwise Ben is going to totally destroy me with his new l33t > seekrit Ravnos hax0r tech next year at GenCon. Ben? Ben?!? Dude, that *hurts*! I am *so* going to skool much Meths with the naked[1] power of Red Herring! [1] That'd be the card, not me. Unless maybe there's a pool nearby. [ quoted text not captured ]

>There is that. Seems like people hardly ever bother to pack Skin of >Rock or Resilience these days. It's all about the Rolling with the >Punches. Seeing a number of decklists with Rock. Now, either people are metagaming against multiple agg damage decks or they are playing the wrong card. As for Resilience, if I'm playing Rolling, I'm playing Resilience; the two naturally complement. >Halcyan 2 > >kiasyd and !salubri suck. let's keep it that way. Sure, the doofi are worthless, but Kiasyd are roughly Lasombra, which is boring but not in any way weak.

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message news:20021219133931...@mb-cg.aol.com... > > Sure, the doofi are worthless, but Kiasyd are roughly Lasombra, which is boring > but not in any way weak. How exactly are the Lasombra "boring"? Or were you saying that, since the Kiasyd are similar to the Lasombra, *that* is what is boring? Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

<snip> > >Basilisk touch : remove the younger vampire close =) > > Once again, the "younger vampire" thing is the only factor keeping this card > relatively balanced. Without the clause, it's like a Disarm where all you have > to do is actually do damage (as opposed to doing more damage) to torporize a > vamp. > > Halcyan 2 > > kiasyd and !salubri suck. let's keep it that way. i dont think an effective 'this round my hand damage is aggravated' premaneuver for 2 blood would be unbalanced in any way. Why would it be? ok it can be nifty versus allies, but thats pretty much it. -Bram Vink

>Or were you saying that, since the Kiasyd are similar to the Lasombra, = >*that* is what is boring? Yes. "He's a ... he's a reverse vampire. They ... they crave the Sun."

David Cherryholmes <d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu> wrote: > On 19 Dec 2002, Xian wrote: > > > hmm? Otherwise Ben is going to totally destroy me with his new l33t > > seekrit Ravnos hax0r tech next year at GenCon. > > Ben? Ben?!? Dude, that *hurts*! Ah, but Ben is the one that is constantly saying, "evolve or die". Not you. :P I *was* talking about generating new tech...not that I think that you can't develop new tech, but I don't expect there to be much in the way of new *Ravnos* tech. Which is probably going to get me destroyed next year, hmm? :) Also, I expect l33t hax0r stuff from Ben, not you. I'd worry more about gamma-ray irradiated tech from you. [snip naked power of Red Herring] We did discuss Red Herring pretty thouroughly at GenCon, IIRC. It's not going to surprise me. Annoy me, yes. Oust me, maybe. Surprise me, no. Then again, maybe I'll just play Computer Hack weenies every game I see you in. :P > [1] That'd be the card, not me. Unless maybe there's a pool nearby. So many reasons to arrive early, but so many reasons (including maintaining sanity) to only go for the con itself. Xian

On Friday 20 December 2002 10:07 in message <dbc1153.02122...@posting.google.com>, Xian mumbled something about: > David Cherryholmes <d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu> wrote: >> On 19 Dec 2002, Xian wrote: >> >> > hmm? Otherwise Ben is going to totally destroy me with his new l33t >> > seekrit Ravnos hax0r tech next year at GenCon. >> >> Ben? Ben?!? Dude, that *hurts*! > > Ah, but Ben is the one that is constantly saying, "evolve or die". > Not you. :P > > I *was* talking about generating new tech...not that I think that you > can't develop new tech, but I don't expect there to be much in the way > of new *Ravnos* tech. ...Shilmulo Deception still hasn't been taken around the block for a test-drive. The obvious option is Raven Spies on a weenie who then never taps and passes off all blocks to someone like Gabrin with a Meat Hook and Apparition. (and a free maneuver). There are some other non-obvious options for it as well. And don't forget the Far Fatass deck, baby. J00 w1ll be skar3d!! (although there's a part of me that wants to play Mass Reality and Improvised Flamethrowers for that extra-poofy niceness) -- Derek

On 20 Dec 2002, Xian wrote: > I *was* talking about generating new tech...not that I think that you > can't develop new tech, but I don't expect there to be much in the way > of new *Ravnos* tech. Yeah, I was just kidding. Ben's earned his reputation. Actually, though, I have come up with a little new Ravnos' tech since we hung out, but I'm pretty sure I've blurted it to the newsgroup by now. Pulled it off last night, though, against a table that didn't see it coming. It's always fun to play a card and watch people scratch their head and ask you just what the hell that's gonna be good for. > Which is probably going to get me destroyed next year, hmm? :) Only in pickup games. > Then again, maybe I'll just play Computer Hack weenies every game I > see you in. :P And we were getting along so well..... [ quoted text not captured ]

Xian wrote: > I should stop talking about the tech that I developed back in the day, > and start thinking up new tech, hmm? Otherwise Ben is going to totally > destroy me with his new l33t seekrit Ravnos hax0r tech next year at GenCon. Actually, it's more likely to be Cherryholmes innovating the new Ravnos hax0r tech, as I took a breather to develop some l33t Gargoyles tech, among other things. Ph3ar us. - Ben Peal, Prince of Boston fu...@mindstorm.com

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote : > Xian mumbled something about: > > > I *was* talking about generating new tech...not that I think that you > > can't develop new tech, but I don't expect there to be much in the way > > of new *Ravnos* tech. > > ...Shilmulo Deception still hasn't been taken around the block for a > test-drive. The obvious option is Raven Spies on a weenie who then never > taps and passes off all blocks to someone like Gabrin with a Meat Hook and > Apparition. (and a free maneuver). There are some other non-obvious > options for it as well. Dave and I were talking about this at GenCon, I believe. :) But you're right, it hasn't seen enough play yet. I think that Spleen is the obvious option for having the Raven Spies. As does Dave, and I think that's what he was using Spleen for. Heh. > And don't forget the Far Fatass deck, baby. J00 w1ll be skar3d!! Haha! Only if you actually **show up** for once. :P > (although there's a part of me that wants to play Mass Reality and > Improvised Flamethrowers for that extra-poofy niceness) That'd be pretty funny. In casual play, are you actually able to keep Mass Reality in play long enough? Most times I see it played, it goes away pretty quickly. Xian

In message <dbc1153.02122...@posting.google.com>, xb...@qwest.net (Xian) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote : >> ...Shilmulo Deception still hasn't been taken around the block for a >> test-drive. The obvious option is Raven Spies on a weenie who then never >> taps and passes off all blocks to someone like Gabrin with a Meat Hook and >> Apparition. (and a free maneuver). There are some other non-obvious >> options for it as well. > >Dave and I were talking about this at GenCon, I believe. :) But >you're right, it hasn't seen enough play yet. I think that Spleen is >the obvious option for having the Raven Spies. As does Dave, and I >think that's what he was using Spleen for. Heh. Spleen was the option I was aiming for, too. It's not like he's got anything ELSE better to do; and you can always launch him on a suicide mission in desperation. >> And don't forget the Far Fatass deck, baby. J00 w1ll be skar3d!! > >Haha! Only if you actually **show up** for once. :P all right dammit. im scheduling my vacation now :P Don't you want to hear the l33t s3Kr|t t3]< of the Far Fatass though? (hee) >> (although there's a part of me that wants to play Mass Reality and >> Improvised Flamethrowers for that extra-poofy niceness) > >That'd be pretty funny. In casual play, are you actually able to keep >Mass Reality in play long enough? Most times I see it played, it goes >away pretty quickly. Depends. If I'm sitting next to a deck with enough disposable actions, it'll go away and I won't bother defending it too terribly long -- just not worth my time unless I can burn the actioneer. If I'm sitting next to decks that have to value their actions/reactions though, it can stay around for a turn or two... which is usually enough time for me to get at least one more in play. I've also found that putting MR in play and then complaining about having no weapons in hand to Conceal out makes people ignore them. Also, non-combat (S:CE, Dodge) decks tend to ignore the Realities as something they're going to try to avoid anyway; an error in judgment, IMO. Once two are in play, making a declaration that all attempts to burn the Mass Reality will be met with six ranged aggravated damage is generally sufficient to make people rethink their priorities at any given time. Not to mention that Gabrin can shovel one out every turn for cheap or free depending on Path status. Much like Army of Rats, if you can distract people long enough to get 4 of them on the table, nobody even bothers anymore; they just reclassify your weapons as "burns that vampire" and concentrate on ousting you instead. The REAL problem is getting weapons out to go with them. Meat Hooks and such are definitely nicer for this since they can be Concealed; people really really REALLY tend to block the "I get a Flamethrower" action, though Red Herring can help here, I believe... ("card played to perform the action" does not equal "action cards only" to me, since you can't take an equip action without an equipment card.) -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Derek Ray wrote: > Spleen was the option I was aiming for, too. It's not like he's got > anything ELSE better to do; and you can always launch him on a suicide > mission in desperation. Spleen with a Chimestry skill card is, of course, a whole 'nother aminal. He may be hacking you for four. Not that this is any big revelation or anything, just saying mmmmm boy, do I like Spleen. > Don't you want to hear the l33t s3Kr|t t3]< of the Far Fatass though? I sure do. Whasshaaaap? Surely to god you aren't talking about FF/Amria? > The REAL problem is getting weapons out to go with them. Meat Hooks and > such are definitely nicer for this since they can be Concealed; people > really really REALLY tend to block the "I get a Flamethrower" action, > though Red Herring can help here, I believe... ("card played to perform > the action" does not equal "action cards only" to me, since you can't > take an equip action without an equipment card.) Zip Guns seem like the way to go. Stir it in with Ye Olde Trapparition. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <Pine.GSO.4.21.021224...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu>, David Cherryholmes <d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu> mumbled something about: >On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Derek Ray wrote: > >> Spleen was the option I was aiming for, too. It's not like he's got >> anything ELSE better to do; and you can always launch him on a suicide >> mission in desperation. > >Spleen with a Chimestry skill card is, of course, a whole 'nother >aminal. He may be hacking you for four. Not that this is any big >revelation or anything, just saying mmmmm boy, do I like Spleen. Well, he can always eventually get one of those. But in The Beginning, he's still the Dingus. :) >> Don't you want to hear the l33t s3Kr|t t3]< of the Far Fatass though? > >I sure do. Whasshaaaap? Surely to god you aren't talking about FF/Amria? Oh, there's much more to it than that. Amria is neat, and convenient and all, but Far Fatass has l33tness inherently related to: "Prevent all damage from opponent's strikes this round." When Gabrin plays it, it's a free 2R strike with a built in Skin of Steel. Except Gabrin has ANI and can play things like Carrion Crows, turning things into a 4R strike. With the prevalence of ranged strikes right now (guns and things to counter guns), it's a good time for a ranged strike-and-prevent,... and you DO have the option of Terror Frenzy to lock them at long range and stop anyone else pressing to continue (you're a one-round wonder, you are). Any 4R that lands can be Tasted... Maneuvers? Amria is nice and free, but Shilmulo Deception provides a maneuver at superior and is also free... (see where that's going?) and so does Guard Dogs. Excellent utility cards, there, and they even combine reasonably well, so you don't have to pack your deck full of Amria just to play Far Fatass. Unflinching Persistence gives you one as well (that helps out against opposing Crows), but Gabrin can't make effective use of it out of the box. Alternately, you can load up with Paths and let all the CHI/ANI people out of the box to play. It's a blocker's card, admittedly. But the Ravnos block well. Amria's dodge-with-a-press is an excellent counter for people who insist on playing things like Theft of Vitae and other rudeness (ugly Tremere who will LET you maneuver to long range, or may even do it for you, saving your Amrias), and you can still get 2R out of it from Carrion Crows. Ideally, this kits Gabrin and Spleen up as defense (with humor factor) and then you can use more traditional Ravnos tech to go forward. =) >> The REAL problem is getting weapons out to go with them. Meat Hooks and >> such are definitely nicer for this since they can be Concealed; people >> really really REALLY tend to block the "I get a Flamethrower" action, >> though Red Herring can help here, I believe... ("card played to perform >> the action" does not equal "action cards only" to me, since you can't >> take an equip action without an equipment card.) > >Zip Guns seem like the way to go. Stir it in with Ye Olde Trapparition. I don't like Zip Gun/MR/Trapparition as much, mostly because of the inherent waste of something -- either you're using MR when you don't need to, or you're using Trapparition when you don't need to because you've got Zip Guns that do 7. Zip Gun/Apparition/MR is nice all by itself though. =D But there's nothing like chucking around Flamethrowers for 6 to get people's attention. ("ok, let's see, i need five blood when i'm blocked or i burn") [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray wrote: > The REAL problem is getting weapons out to go with them. Meat Hooks and > such are definitely nicer for this since they can be Concealed; people > really really REALLY tend to block the "I get a Flamethrower" action, > though Red Herring can help here, I believe... ("card played to perform > the action" does not equal "action cards only" to me, since you can't > take an equip action without an equipment card.) The wording on Red Herring offers no stumbling block nor boon, actually. The Flamethrower card is an action card, as all equipment cards (and retainer cards and ally cards) are, so even if RH said "action cards only", the Flamethrower still qualifies. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In message <3E0B06B9...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> mumbled something about: >Derek Ray wrote: >> The REAL problem is getting weapons out to go with them. Meat Hooks and >> such are definitely nicer for this since they can be Concealed; people >> really really REALLY tend to block the "I get a Flamethrower" action, >> though Red Herring can help here, I believe... ("card played to perform >> the action" does not equal "action cards only" to me, since you can't >> take an equip action without an equipment card.) > >The wording on Red Herring offers no stumbling block nor boon, actually. > >The Flamethrower card is an action card, as all equipment cards (and >retainer cards and ally cards) are, so even if RH said "action cards >only", the Flamethrower still qualifies. Not incidentally making Total Insanity noticeably better. (Although it was already pretty darn good.) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2002, Derek Ray wrote: > Not incidentally making Total Insanity noticeably better. (Although it > was already pretty darn good.) I am enjoying the day off, building Jyhad decks as we speak. One of the decks on my "To Do" list is DEM/for, the core of which is KS/TI/FD. I am sadly lacking the vampires to build the crypt correctly, though. I also think I'm going to work on my own Shilmulo Deception deck. I think we're playing tonight, and it'll be pretty funny when they figure out it's not Ravnos Tap n' Bleed. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<js8m0vo5973g96vpl...@4ax.com>... > In message <3E0B06B9...@white-wolf.com>, > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> mumbled something about: > >The Flamethrower card is an action card, as all equipment cards (and > >retainer cards and ally cards) are, so even if RH said "action cards > >only", the Flamethrower still qualifies. > > Not incidentally making Total Insanity noticeably better. (Although it > was already pretty darn good.) Hang on, are you serious? My impression has been that Total Insanity is pretty darn bad. (a) You have to do it to a younger vampire (or ally). (b) It doesn't stop them from bleeding + Conditioning. (c) It only lasts 2 turns. I guess it would be good against rush decks, or vote decks, if you use big vamps to do it. But then you'd have to be playing Freak Drive or else you're kind of wasting your actions on doing nothing much yourself. Can you show me a deck that makes it look good? It seems to me like Sensory Overload is way better - you can do that with weenies and it doesn't just stop action-card actions, it stops any actions, even though it costs a blood (Path) and only lasts 1 turn. Neither one has inherent stealth... Josh maybe in crazy larry's totally insane deck...

In message <c825e53.02122...@posting.google.com>, jtdu...@yahoo.com (Joshua Duffin) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<js8m0vo5973g96vpl...@4ax.com>... >> In message <3E0B06B9...@white-wolf.com>, >> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> mumbled something about: > >> >The Flamethrower card is an action card, as all equipment cards (and >> >retainer cards and ally cards) are, so even if RH said "action cards >> >only", the Flamethrower still qualifies. >> >> Not incidentally making Total Insanity noticeably better. (Although it >> was already pretty darn good.) > >Hang on, are you serious? My impression has been that Total >Insanity is pretty darn bad. > >(a) You have to do it to a younger vampire (or ally). Anatole, Theron, and Jason are all pretty cool with that, being 8-caps themselves. Artemis can manage in a pinch. >(b) It doesn't stop them from bleeding + Conditioning. Nothing is perfect. At -1 stealth, you at least have the option to block or Deflect... and it certainly pisses off Bonding users. Lots of nasty action cards going around these days; it's nice to limit someone to Plain Old Bleed. >(c) It only lasts 2 turns. You can keep sticking it on them, you know. =) If you're going this angle, you've got plenty of Total Insanity in the deck anyway, so you probably WANT to keep sticking it on people lots. >I guess it would be good against rush decks, or vote >decks, if you use big vamps to do it. But then you'd >have to be playing Freak Drive or else you're kind of >wasting your actions on doing nothing much yourself. I DID mention the four guys with DEM/for, right? ;) With the addition of equipment, retainers, and the like in the mix as well as plain old action cards, it really messes up any deck that takes actions OTHER than "bleed for 1". I would assume that one would prepare to deal with a lot of bleed-for-1-and-modify-it actions. >Can you show me a deck that makes it look good? It >seems to me like Sensory Overload is way better - you Sensory Overload isn't attached to a discipline with Kindred Spirits, Eyes of Chaos, and vampires who share that discipline and OBF, though. Sensory Overload IS noticeably better; you can lock down one vampire almost for good. But it costs a blood in a clan that is typically hurting for blood anyway and has a bit more trouble ousting people. >can do that with weenies and it doesn't just stop >action-card actions, it stops any actions, even though >it costs a blood (Path) and only lasts 1 turn. Neither >one has inherent stealth... Lots of TI for your predator, and the good old stealth/bleed for your prey. Plenty of Kindred Spirits allow you to shrug off the bleeds for 1 from behind you. Lighter on combat defense (making room for TI) since you don't have to worry about your predator. Freak Drive, of course, so your guys can do something other than nuke your predator; but you do have two turns available, so you don't have to Freak Drive with everyone -every- turn. I'd stick, oh, 12 or so in a deck designed to use it. Don't have to drop one every turn, and probably don't have to lock down your predator's weenies, just his more "key" vamps... which are likely to be in the 6-8 range. Fortitude skill cards help edge those three 8-caps into "generally always useful" range. No, you won't shut down Cock Robin and his Raptor machine, but it wasn't going to be easy to stop him anyway. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<9van0vou0v1euh61s...@4ax.com>... > In message <c825e53.02122...@posting.google.com>, > jtdu...@yahoo.com (Joshua Duffin) mumbled something about: [re just how Insane it is to use Total Insanity] > >(c) It only lasts 2 turns. > > You can keep sticking it on them, you know. =) If you're going this > angle, you've got plenty of Total Insanity in the deck anyway, so you > probably WANT to keep sticking it on people lots. Yeah, that makes sense. > Lots of TI for your predator, and the good old stealth/bleed for your > prey. Plenty of Kindred Spirits allow you to shrug off the bleeds for 1 > from behind you. Lighter on combat defense (making room for TI) since > you don't have to worry about your predator. Freak Drive, of course, so > your guys can do something other than nuke your predator; but you do > have two turns available, so you don't have to Freak Drive with everyone > -every- turn. Could work. Maybe Trey should try this in his DEM/for deck. I'm pretty sure he's never had that much "free space" for more cards in it, but it should be pretty good defense, though having to use your Obfuscate on actions to defend against your predator in addition to the ones to oust your prey might stress the Obf part of the deck some. > I'd stick, oh, 12 or so in a deck designed to use it. Don't have to > drop one every turn, and probably don't have to lock down your > predator's weenies, just his more "key" vamps... which are likely to be > in the 6-8 range. Fortitude skill cards help edge those three 8-caps > into "generally always useful" range. No, you won't shut down Cock > Robin and his Raptor machine, but it wasn't going to be easy to stop him > anyway. Yeah, and it probably won't work against some of the vote decks you'd want to stop either (the 10 and 11-cap Zillah's and Parity Shift and hey hey it hurts me type). But yeah, it could make a good "predator doesn't hurt me too much" angle, and one that does still let your predator block (unlike Sensory Overload), although it is still quite action- intensive. Josh mmm, techy

"Xian" <xb...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:dbc1153.02121...@posting.google.com... > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > FOR? Even worse than POT! Even POT/THA is cliched now. But > > You're probably right...I'm so not "with it" anymore. I don't even > know what the "lingo" the "kids" are using when they "rap" with each > other these "days". You're "hip". You're "with it". Tukka tukka tukka tukka... > Sad that POT/THA is cliched now, though. What with posting the first > ever POT/THA deck (to my knowledge, anyway) way back when. Hmm. > Looks like I'm getting complacent. I should stop talking about the > tech that I developed back in the day, and start thinking up new tech, > hmm? Otherwise Ben is going to totally destroy me with his new l33t > seekrit Ravnos hax0r tech next year at GenCon. Yeah, POT/THA was cool back then, but now that Torn Signpost plus Blood Fury is actually a combo, everybody's doing it. heh. If you want to not be destroyed though, new "useful" tech as opposed to new "bad" tech might be the way to go. ;-) > What *can't* a million billion ninjas beat? Aside from the Tick, of > course. Yes, not much, I think. Josh "i hope that's a good thermos, because i'm going to stuff your warm beating heart in it"