Gratiano questions...

Ok, so tonight I played a Blood Siege with Gratiano, and some players I didn't know, who were unaware that Gratiano's special could be cumulated with another title. Please answer the followings : - Gratiano loses his Priscus title when he gains another title - He still has one vote in the Prisci sub-referendum ; only one, so now he is the equal of any other normal Priscus, right ? - Can he use that vote even if no Priscus (apart from him who isn't Priscus anymore) is present to call for the sub-referendum ? Aside from that, I have to regret that tonight's game wasn't a Storyline tournament, because Gratiano did an heroïc thing : he rushed (with Political Struggle) Democritus, Ventrue Justicar, put him to torpor (Thoughts Betrayed / Leather Jacket / Disarm), diablerized him (Amaranth), got 3 votes in the process, and survived the Blood Hunt to tell the story !! :-) Wouldn't that have been nice in an official background thing ? -- Yours, Orpheus, Prince of Marseille http://no.exit.free.fr (onlive novel) http://cypheranima.free.fr (goth band) news://news.zoo-logique.org/VTES-francophone audio...@yahoogroups.com

>- Gratiano loses his Priscus title when he gains another title Correct. >- He still has one vote in the Prisci sub-referendum ; only one, so now he >is the equal of any other normal Priscus, right ? Correct. Gratiano the Cardinal has only one Prisci vote (just like most Prisci have). >- Can he use that vote even if no Priscus (apart from him who isn't Priscus >anymore) is present to call for the sub-referendum ? Yes. >Aside from that, I have to regret that tonight's game wasn't a Storyline >tournament, because Gratiano did an heroïc thing : he rushed (with Political >Struggle) Democritus, Ventrue Justicar, put him to torpor (Thoughts Betrayed >/ Leather Jacket / Disarm), diablerized him (Amaranth), got 3 votes in the >process, and survived the Blood Hunt to tell the story !! :-) Wouldn't that >have been nice in an official background thing ? Gratiano is an annoying, dirty little Lasombra! Evil! BTW: I was just checking up on the rules for the Prisci block but I didn't notice anything preventing non-Sabbat from voting in it (besides the fact that Priscus is a Sabbat title). So does this mean that Gratiano (the Camarilla Prince) can still vote in the Prisci sub-referendum? Halcyan 2

Orpheus wrote: > > Ok, so tonight I played a Blood Siege with Gratiano, and some players I > didn't know, who were unaware that Gratiano's special could be cumulated > with another title. > Please answer the followings : > > - Gratiano loses his Priscus title when he gains another title True. [6.3.4] > - He still has one vote in the Prisci sub-referendum ; only one, so now he True. [card text] > is the equal of any other normal Priscus, right ? Roughly. > - Can he use that vote even if no Priscus (apart from him who isn't Priscus > anymore) is present to call for the sub-referendum ? Moot, since prisci don't call for sub-referendum. The sub-referendum is present in all referendums. [6.3.3] -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Halcyan 2 wrote: > BTW: I was just checking up on the rules for the Prisci block but I didn't > notice anything preventing non-Sabbat from voting in it (besides the fact that > Priscus is a Sabbat title). So does this mean that Gratiano (the Camarilla > Prince) can still vote in the Prisci sub-referendum? His card text has no sect qualifier, correct. [ quoted text not captured ]

Thank you for your answers. But some other questions have arisen yesterday : - in what order are votes and vote modifier cast ? - As an aside, I was wondering why the old rule concerning the ousting of another methuselah than your prey has been changed ; rules usually change when things go wrong, so what was the problem with gaining the blood from ousting another methuselah ? It could sometimes save your life, not to mention that the power to bleed whomever you want (Raphaele Giovanni, Julia Prima...) is nearly worthless if you only give your future predator 6 pool and a VP... I'm sure there was some other thing we were wondering about, but well, I'll remember in time and ask then... [ quoted text not captured ]

"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:a2u57c$kqc$1...@wanadoo.fr... > - in what order are votes and vote modifier cast ? See 6.3.2 of the online rulebook, for this quote: "All Methuselahs may now cast any votes they have (see below) at this time, in any order." See also 6.3.3 of the online rulebook for gaining votes: "Methuselahs, by default, have no votes. Votes must be gained, and there are a variety of ways to do so. Once gained, a vote need not be cast right away, if at all. Each vote cast is cast either "for" or "against" the referendum, and a Methuselah may cast some of her votes in favor and some against, as she chooses, with the restriction that all of the votes from a single source must be cast in agreement, as a group. Once cast, a vote cannot be changed." Online Rulebook: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/ > - As an aside, I was wondering why the old rule concerning > the ousting of another methuselah than your prey has been changed; It hasn't changed, you only ever gained pool or vps for ousting your prey. Find your Jyhad rulebook, and read section 18.1 Winning the Game. "When your PREY is ousted, you earn six blood points from the blood bank, the prey's ante card, if ante is being played for, and a victory point." > rules usually change > when things go wrong, so what was the problem with gaining the > blood from ousting another methuselah ? Nothing wrong with it at all. It _always_ had to be your prey though. > It could sometimes save your life, not to > mention that the power to bleed whomever you want > (Raphaele Giovanni, Julia Prima...) is nearly worthless > if you only give your future predator 6 pool and a VP... Agreed. You should not oust someone other than your prey, unless it will win you the game. This has always been the case. > I'm sure there was some other thing we were wondering about, > but well, I'll remember in time and ask then... Please do. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In message <c90adeb079d37d9f203...@mygate.mailgate.org>, The Lasombra <thela...@hotmail.com> writes: >> It could sometimes save your life, not to >> mention that the power to bleed whomever you want >> (Raphaele Giovanni, Julia Prima...) is nearly worthless >> if you only give your future predator 6 pool and a VP... > >Agreed. >You should not oust someone other than your prey, unless it >will win you the game. This has always been the case. Indeed. Garfield's take on this was that the predator/prey dynamic helped stop 'random' cross-table interaction, along with providing cards where such was limited. If you *do* want to oust someone cross-table or your predator or whatever, then you must be getting some other significant advantage from it e.g. you're playing a vote deck and they are too, and you want to try and achieve vote lock. -- James Coupe "Never give in to them," she whispered. "No matter what PGP 0x5D623D5D EB they do or how important you feel it is to get their accep- D690ECD7A1FB457CA21 tance. Never kill part of yourself for them. Because other 3D7E668C3695D623D5D people will notice that part is missing before you do."

> > - in what order are votes and vote modifier cast ? > > See 6.3.2 of the online rulebook, for this quote: > > "All Methuselahs may now cast any votes they have > (see below) at this time, in any order." So, can for instance the Lasombra Meth ;-) cast votes with Gratiano, then wait for other meths' voters B4 deciding if Alvaro will vote too or abstain ? > See also 6.3.3 of the online rulebook for gaining votes: > > "Methuselahs, by default, have no votes. Votes must be gained, > and there are a variety of ways to do so. Once gained, a vote > need not be cast right away, if at all. Each vote cast is cast > either "for" or "against" the referendum, and a Methuselah may > cast some of her votes in favor and some against, as she chooses, > with the restriction that all of the votes from a single source > must be cast in agreement, as a group. Once cast, a vote cannot > be changed." Hum, thank you, but it's not 100% clear to me yet, so : Can vote cards be tossed in any order ? Does the "from a single source" mean the vampire, or the methuselah ? Can you add one vote card, wait, add some presence modifier, etc. ? Anyway, I guess there must be some conventions, especially during tournaments, to avoid total chaos during votes ? In that case, which type of table turn is usually adopted ? > > - As an aside, I was wondering why the old rule concerning > > the ousting of another methuselah than your prey has been changed; > > It hasn't changed, you only ever gained pool or vps for ousting > your prey. I checked and you're right, as always ; weird : I've never played prior to SW, but different people from different playgroups told me the rule used to be different... very weird. Oh, and Jeff : I hope you appreciated Gratiano's latest diablerie... ;-) Speaking of whom, I never understood how Gratiano himself could be an 8 cap knowing his generation and background... -- [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <a2ufgv$62r$1...@wanadoo.fr>, Orpheus <orph...@wanadoo.fr> writes: >> "All Methuselahs may now cast any votes they have >> (see below) at this time, in any order." > >So, can for instance the Lasombra Meth ;-) cast votes with Gratiano, then >wait for other meths' voters B4 deciding if Alvaro will vote too or abstain >? They can vote "in any order". >Can vote cards be tossed in any order ? Yes. Votes are cast "in any order", over-riding 1.6.1.6 >Anyway, I guess there must be some conventions, especially during >tournaments, to avoid total chaos during votes ? In that case, which type of >table turn is usually adopted ? "any order" is the only official one. [ quoted text not captured ]

Orpheus wrote: > Can vote cards be tossed in any order ? Does the "from a single source" mean Yes. > the vampire, or the methuselah ? Can you add one vote card, wait, add some A single source is a vampire or a single non-vampire source (like Ventrue HQ). All the votes a single vampire casts must be cast in agreement. All the votes from a given non-vampire source must be cast in agreement (you cannot tap the Ventrue HQ and cast 2 in favor and 1 against). > presence modifier, etc. ? Yes. > Anyway, I guess there must be some conventions, especially during > tournaments, to avoid total chaos during votes ? In that case, which type of > table turn is usually adopted ? "Any order" hasn't ever posed a problem or been an issue so far. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Speaking of whom, I never understood how Gratiano himself could be an 8 cap > knowing his generation and background... Because he's the weakest of the 4th Geneartion Lasombra, and in comparison with many of the other Lasombra ancients, he isn't all that strong, physically, or politically. He's not the one who diablerized Lasombra, he just led the anarchs to where he was. If he had, he probably wouldn't be in the game at all.... Fanboy

[ quoted text not captured ] OK, thanks for the enlightment... :-)