Unbalanced number of vampires

I was thinking about and i've seen a fact in the game about number of vampires of each clan. Each camarilla clan has 25 vampires. Each independent clan has 25 vamps. Each sabbat clan has 15 vamps. Why? Well, it's known sabbat has been always a little sect compared with camarilla, because of civil wars and diseases with vaulderie and that only two entire clans are in it. But, probably the difference will grow up to a proportion of 2:1 when Camarilla expansion will appear (at least 5 new vampires of each cam clan for a total of 30 vs 15). It's also true that the relation cantity/quality is better in sabbat clans that in camarilla's; but it's also true than if not the !Clans, at least the Lasombra and Tzimisce are two entires clans who are the majority in the sect; and the game represents as much of them as of other !Clans. Compared with some independent, like the Ravnos (a clan that has been nearly extingished by its elder), the difference seems ridiculous: there're more Ravnos than Lasombras in VTES World. The difference is aggravated if we think that some clans can choose vampires fro m both normal and antitribu to make the decks, because they have the same disciplines, which leave us clans like Toreador, Brujah, Tremere and Nosferatu in advantage. A last curious detail: 15 tzimisces and 10 blood brothers (created by them!) and 40 tremeres and 5 gargoyles (also created by them). Merry Christmas to all, Rodrigo Santamaría, archbishop of Salamana (Spain)

In message <8ac3ea91.0112...@posting.google.com>, Efialto <FLE...@teleline.es> writes: >I was thinking about and i've seen a fact in the game about number of >vampires of each clan. >Each camarilla clan has 25 vampires. >Each independent clan has 25 vamps. >Each sabbat clan has 15 vamps. > >Why? Because that's how the printings have ended up. Wedging another 90 or so vampire cards into Sabbat War, say, would be tricky. And you couldn't easily do a starter for each clan (7 cam antis, 2 Sabbat only + random pander = bad for display boxes) with separate (non-booster) vampires in them, like in Final Nights. I very much doubt it's some kind of 3v1l plan by the V:TES Kabal. -- James Coupe "I think Christmas has lost it's meaning... PGP 0x5D623D5D we're all too busy wrapped up in the commercial aspects EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 of the season that we forget the true meaning... 13D7E668C3695D623D5D it's as if Santa died on the cross in vane for us all!"

In message <b3RCWeXeR3J8EwQ$@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> mumbled something about: >I very much doubt it's some kind of 3v1l plan by the V:TES Kabal. TINK? -- "Grod come smash THAT vampire now."

In message <2a0f2u4t56ks63rlv...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes: >In message <b3RCWeXeR3J8EwQ$@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, >James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> mumbled something about: >>I very much doubt it's some kind of 3v1l plan by the V:TES Kabal. > >TINK? Shush. LSJ will bring the black helicopter to take you away. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:b3RCWeXeR3J8EwQ$@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <8ac3ea91.0112...@posting.google.com>, Efialto > <FLE...@teleline.es> writes: > >I was thinking about and i've seen a fact in the game about number of > >vampires of each clan. > >Each camarilla clan has 25 vampires. > >Each independent clan has 25 vamps. > >Each sabbat clan has 15 vamps. > > > >Why? > > Because that's how the printings have ended up. Wedging another 90 or > so vampire cards into Sabbat War, say, would be tricky. And you > couldn't easily do a starter for each clan (7 cam antis, 2 Sabbat only + > random pander = bad for display boxes) with separate (non-booster) > vampires in them, like in Final Nights. > > > I very much doubt it's some kind of 3v1l plan by the V:TES Kabal. > They could produce only vampires to compensate . It's a easy and simple solution . For example a Vampire Only expension after the camarilla expension ( Shortly after ) . I dont think that would un-balance the game if done correctly and would give good opportunity to the players of some clans and more possibilities . Just my 2 cents .

In message <Pm1W7.8347$eo1.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>, Martin Laganičre <Settite...@Serpent.XXX> writes: >> Because that's how the printings have ended up. Wedging another 90 or >> so vampire cards into Sabbat War, say, would be tricky. And you >> couldn't easily do a starter for each clan (7 cam antis, 2 Sabbat only + >> random pander = bad for display boxes) with separate (non-booster) >> vampires in them, like in Final Nights. > >They could produce only vampires to compensate . It's a easy and simple >solution . From some of the points of view. >For example a Vampire Only expension after the camarilla >expension ( Shortly after ) . Shortly after has its own problems - people then have two lots of things to buy, notching up the pounds. It also creates problems with playtesting. Will those involved in play- testing any new cards in the base set also be playtesting the Sabbat vampires? What about those playtesting the new Sabbat vampires? Will they get to see the cards in the base set? And this could end up putting rather a lot of strain on playtesters, as they have to playtest a 400 card (taking Jyhad/V:TES as a rough guide) base set, including <X> new cards, as well as 90 new and entirely separate vampires. Additional problems are created in that there is significantly less market for such. With a set such as, say, Final Nights, the fact that many disciplines get new boosts means that more of those cards will be bought - either by people who want the cards themselves or buy people who want *other* cards in the set and can trade them away. Then you have 90 new vampires. Add a few extra Pander, maybe an extra Ahrimane, Kiasyd, whatever to take it up to 100. A sheet. Not very many in the first place, which may well up the relative production costs. Marketing problems become difficult. Rather than being able to sell it as including new cards for any deck, it becomes solely a bolstering expansion for Sabbat oriented decks. (That you can create multi-clan decks is true, of course; this is generally harder to market c.f. White Wolf's reasoning behind the release of SW, for instance, because of the sect playability angle for V:tM players.) Playing the vampires creates difficulties in sealed deck. Obviously, they would need to be played in tandem with something - probably one of the Sabbat War starters. Only 40/100 vampires would match those decks. Someone like the Gangrel Antitribu and Tremere Antitribu are going to fit extremely badly into all of the decks (though !Tre have AUS and DOM, there are no useful Thaumaturgy or !Tre cards in the SW set to even begin to attempt to utilise them efficiently). And sealed deck is generally popular with players (often good with newbies, who perceive a vast number of cards as providing serious leverage for a player, which isn't generally true once a 'critical' number is reached) and has the added bonus - for White Wolf - that each batch of product used for it can only be used once. (Whereas constructed can have it used again, and again, and again.) You have a virtually flat distribution. As has been gone over repeatedly, there are no known examples of a CCG-type game remaining profitable with a flat distribution. (Though there may be some.) [ quoted text not captured ]

"Martin Lagani?e" <Settite...@Serpent.XXX> wrote in message news:<Pm1W7.8347$eo1.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>... > > They could produce only vampires to compensate . It's a easy and simple > solution . For example a Vampire Only expension after the camarilla > expension ( Shortly after ) . I dont think that would un-balance the game if > done correctly and would give good opportunity to the players of some clans > and more possibilities . > I find that unlikely. It would involve creating a single 100 card sheet and then printing up wrappers and booster displays for a relatively small print-run with fairly low demand (once you have one of each vampire, how many more packs are you going to buy? This is not necessarily the case for a regular set). What *I'd* like to see is a set with no new clans, no new sects, no new game mechanics, and just flesh out what's already there. I mean... we have a single card that is Cold Iron, which affects a grand total of 6(?) vampires, and this requires a whole new game mechanic? I'd like to see, frex., a slave that either isn't a Gargoyle or isn't bound to the Tremere, a Tzimice or Gangrel or Nosferatu with Flight, a Tremere Antitribu that is Infernal, a Ventrue that's Sterile, a Malkavian with Temporis, a few 4 or 5 caps of an odd bloodline (like a Bratovich Tzimice, some Giovanni with tha, or something else along the lines of Tsigane with aus). I'd like to see a vis/pre split card, a dem/dom split, a cel/pot multi, an obt/obf split, an obt/for multi, etc... Really, I think we have enough clans and enough disciplines and enough game mechanics. It might not hurt to introduce the Ravnos Antitribu, the Assamite Antitribu, the Serpents of Light, and perhaps even Lasombra Antitribu and Old Clan Tzimice... at least those clans don't have new disciplines. But mainly just balance things out. So, I guess I'd like something similar to what you want with a vampire-only expansion, but I wouldn't mind seeing it come as a full-fledged expansion that evens out clans, disciplines, and various mechanics a little bit. I would have liked that even before the new Camarilla base set. Hell, AFAIK, there's still no shortage of Jyhad or V:TES, so why do we need this base set at all? IMHO, it's just going to be an annoyance to most of us, who already have all the base-set cards we'll ever need. We'll end up with about 20 new cards that we need to get, which are probably mostly rare, and will probably go ahead and dutifully buy up boxes of cards we already have. (I mean... you could buy a box of Jyhad for $20 or a box of the new base set for $90 with a few AH and DS mixed in and about 2[ new cards???) I *might* even end up going along with this scam. But I'm not going to be happy about it. I'm sure WW doesn't really care much about my happiness, but well... there it is. I'd be much happier (read: more likely to empty my wallet) with a standard cover-all-bases expansion set, but that's how I felt before bloodlines too, and it didn't make any difference.

Chris Berger wrote: >What *I'd* like to see is a set with no new clans, no new sects, no >new game mechanics, and just flesh out what's already there. I >mean... we have a single card that is Cold Iron, which affects a grand >total of 6(?) vampires, and this requires a whole new game mechanic? >I'd like to see, frex., a slave that either isn't a Gargoyle or isn't >bound to the Tremere, a Tzimice or Gangrel or Nosferatu with Flight, a >Tremere Antitribu that is Infernal, a Ventrue that's Sterile, a Sure. I'd love to see all these things. >Malkavian with Temporis, There are no Malkavians with Temporis; merely delusional Malkavians -- and their victims. >a few 4 or 5 caps of an odd bloodline (like a >Bratovich Tzimice, I presume you mean "sub-clan" rather than bloodline. Such groups can be handled like the City Gangrel -- no new clan required. > some Giovanni with tha, or something else along the >lines of Tsigane with aus). I'd like to see a vis/pre split card, a >dem/dom split, OK, but I suspect that the "split discipline" mechanic was designed primarily to be used with new Bloodlines disciplines to compensate for their marginality. If you use split discipline cards to combine the standard disciplines, you would have to underpower their two primary discipline effects somewhat. Otherwise the presence of an additional other-clan option would make them notably BETTER than existing standard discipline cards. This would be card escalation, and, IMHO, a Bad Thing. >a cel/pot multi, an obt/obf split, an obt/for multi, Yes. New Multis are good. But please don't make them all so rare! >etc... Really, I think we have enough clans and enough disciplines >and enough game mechanics. It might not hurt to introduce the Ravnos >Antitribu, the Assamite Antitribu, the Serpents of Light, and perhaps >even Lasombra Antitribu and Old Clan Tzimice... at least those clans >don't have new disciplines. But mainly just balance things out. According to latest WW background materials, "Lasombra Antitribu" and "Old Clan Tzimisce" do not really exist as clans, nor do these vampires consider themselves to be members of separate clans. These are merely atypical Tzimisces and Lasombras with variant sect allegiance, and can be handled as such in the card game. I think "Ravnos Antitribu" are a bit more coherent as a clan than the above, but they could still be handled similarly. Indeed, this policy may already have begun -- see Anka, Priestess of Thorns, for an example of a possible "Ravnos Antitribu" (ie. a Sabbat Ravnos). Is not the "Council of Thorns" a Ravnos-Antitribu organization? The best argument for a "new clan" could be made for the Serpents of the Light, only because it seems unreasonable to call these guys "Followers of Set" seeing as they do not follow Set. -- John Whelan

> What *I'd* like to see is a set with no new clans, no new sects, no > new game mechanics, and just flesh out what's already there. I > mean... we have a single card that is Cold Iron, which affects a grand > total of 6(?) vampires, and this requires a whole new game mechanic? Really, how much cold iron do you expect vampires to just happen to carry with them at all times? Even taking a poker with you is pretty ridiculous. But, a no new clan, no new sect, no new game mechanics expansion would be fairly refreshing. That's hopefully what the Cam set of 2002 is about. > I'd like to see, frex., a slave that either isn't a Gargoyle or isn't > bound to the Tremere Cool. Though I'm glad Lazverinus isn't a Tzimisce slave! > a Tzimice or Gangrel or Nosferatu with Flight, Yeah. Patagia: Flaps Allowing Limited Flight doesn't really cut it. But isn't the "flight" that Gargoyles get unique to them? (aerodynamically unsound, and all that?) > Tremere Antitribu that is Infernal, Shouldn't Ian Forestal, or Marlene the Infernalist be infernal? What about someone with an Infernal Pact or an Infernal Familiar? The word "infernal" and the concept of extra power for it has been used, but I'm in no hurry to see the new game mechanic (penalty) applied to my !Tremere. > a Ventrue that's Sterile, a > Malkavian with Temporis, If Troile couldn't get Temporis, how the hell would a Malk? > a few 4 or 5 caps of an odd bloodline (like a > Bratovich Tzimice, some Giovanni with tha, or something else along the > lines of Tsigane with aus). Patrizia, Enzo, Marianna, Ambrogino. As has already been posted, Anka or City Gangrel-type stuff could (and probably shall) continue to be printed. > I'd like to see a vis/pre split card, a > dem/dom split, a cel/pot multi, an obt/obf split, an obt/for multi, > etc... Yuck...I wouldn't. I don't even like the split cards I have--they often sacrifice their power for that versatility. > Really, I think we have enough clans and enough disciplines > and enough game mechanics. It might not hurt to introduce the Ravnos > Antitribu, the Assamite Antitribu, the Serpents of Light, and perhaps > even Lasombra Antitribu and Old Clan Tzimice... at least those clans > don't have new disciplines. But mainly just balance things out. That would be great! I want more combinations of the meat-and-potatoes of the game: Ani Aus Dom For Obf Pot Pre. However, WW, I don't want any clans BUTCHERED to avoid having to print a new discipline, ie, the Nagaraja: What happened to Nihilistics?! > So, I guess I'd like something similar to what you want with a > vampire-only expansion, but I wouldn't mind seeing it come as a > full-fledged expansion that evens out clans, disciplines, and various > mechanics a little bit. Hey, count me in. But, barring that...Go Serpents of the Light! --Brian

In message <20011226014105...@mb-fl.news.cs.com>, Nystulc <nys...@cs.com> writes: >>Malkavian with Temporis, > >There are no Malkavians with Temporis; merely delusional Malkavians -- and >their victims. A few Malks with Chi could be fun. (And since Malkavians have Auspex, this could provide another entertaining way in to CHI/AUS.) [ quoted text not captured ]

nys...@cs.com (Nystulc) wrote in message news:<20011226014105...@mb-fl.news.cs.com>... > Chris Berger wrote: > > >Malkavian with Temporis, > > There are no Malkavians with Temporis; merely delusional Malkavians -- and > their victims. > Beware the delusions of madmen, for they may be more real than your own true vision. > >a few 4 or 5 caps of an odd bloodline (like a > >Bratovich Tzimice, > > I presume you mean "sub-clan" rather than bloodline. Such groups can be > handled like the City Gangrel -- no new clan required. > I was under the impression that such things were considered bloodlines. At least, they are listed as such in 2nd edition. And yes, they of course would not need a new clan. The "Bloodlines" are not technically clans either, since they don't have a methuselah (Tremere have Saulot, Giovanni have the Cappodocian methuselah - Cappodocius?), but they have sufficiently different powers and, in some cases, organization to be considered clans for the purpose of the card game. Bratovich Tzimice (and such) would not be it's own clan... I'd just like a few more vampires with offbeat disciplines, and choosing from established "sub-clans" might give a good rationale for their discipline spread. Tsigane is a pretty good example. > > If you use split discipline cards to combine the standard disciplines, you > would have to underpower their two primary discipline effects somewhat. > That would be okay. As long as there was *some* reason to play with them. A decent superior that you couldn't get on another card for the discipline, and split powers on the inferiors, such that you would use them if you had both disciplines in your deck, but on different vampires. > >a cel/pot multi, an obt/obf split, an obt/for multi, > > Yes. New Multis are good. But please don't make them all so rare! > No kidding. Blech. Stupid R1's.

>Cool. Though I'm glad Lazverinus isn't a Tzimisce slave! Lazverinus, as a thrall, is most likely just blood bound to Lambach. There's a significant difference between being blood bound (or serving someone) to being a slave (where you are actually considered property). Otherwise, maybe Aaron would be a slave to Cameron. Richard a slave to Ayelea. And all Tremere might be slaves to older Tremere? (that would be rather amusing though). >Yeah. Patagia: Flaps Allowing Limited Flight doesn't really cut it. >But isn't the "flight" that Gargoyles get unique to them? >(aerodynamically unsound, and all that?) The flight that Gargoyles have is essentially a discipline. Patagia is more of a physical flight (and limited) whereas Gargoyle slight is completely supernatural. Similarly, a helicopter or creating wings out of Vicissitude would also be along the terms of physical flight. Concordance might screw things up a bit, though you might consider that the flight bestowed upon the Baali is most certainly a supernatural form. >Shouldn't Ian Forestal, or Marlene the Infernalist be infernal? What >about someone with an Infernal Pact or an Infernal Familiar? The word >"infernal" and the concept of extra power for it has been used, but >I'm in no hurry to see the new game mechanic (penalty) applied to my >!Tremere. "An infernal minion is one that has sold part of his soul to a demon (or demons). As such, the "control" his controller has over him is tainted by the control the demon has. This struggle for control is handled similar to contesting." Well, perhaps technically Ian, Marlene, demon allies, and anyone with an Infernal Familiar might be considered Infernal. (note that not all !Tremere were Infernalists!). But not only would that create a mechanic problem, it would be severely unfair. My best explanation was the quote above on what an Infernal vampire is. Perhaps Infernal isn't just a black or white issue. You can make deals with demons and dabble in the black arts (like Ian and Marlene), but they haven't reached the point of actually wholly selling their souls (like the Baali have). Similarly, note that a Baali Embrace is not Infernal (has not been tainted yet). So many potential Infernal vampires aren't Infernal because, though they associate with demons, they haven't sold their souls yet. Halcyan 2

> Yeah. Patagia: Flaps Allowing Limited Flight doesn't really cut it. > But isn't the "flight" that Gargoyles get unique to them? > (aerodynamically unsound, and all that?) Baali can get Flight with Concordance, so it's not unique. But Nosferatu can, at best, glide, so Flight isn't really a viable option. Gangrel only fly in their "flight" form, which is usually small, fast, and mostly harmless -- so it's not terribly viable for them, either. > Shouldn't Ian Forestal, or Marlene the Infernalist be infernal? What > about someone with an Infernal Pact or an Infernal Familiar? The word > "infernal" and the concept of extra power for it has been used, but > I'm in no hurry to see the new game mechanic (penalty) applied to my > !Tremere. Not all !Tremere are infernal, but a few are. It would be an interesting addition to the flavor of the game (of course, I'd like to see some Tremere that are infernal, too, since it's not just a Sabbat thing -- in fact, infernal Tremere live longer in the Camarilla). > That would be great! I want more combinations of the > meat-and-potatoes of the game: Ani Aus Dom For Obf Pot Pre. However, > WW, I don't want any clans BUTCHERED to avoid having to print a new > discipline, ie, the Nagaraja: What happened to Nihilistics?! It became a path of Necromancy in tabletop third edition. It had nothing to do with the card game -- the change was made long before WW acquired the rights to VTES. I believe it was listed in Vampire REvised Storyteller's Guide. I found the info in my MET Sabbat Guide. > Hey, count me in. But, barring that...Go Serpents of the Light! They would be Followers of Set with the Sabbat tag. Fanboy

ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Chris Berger) wrote in message news:<5287ede4.01122...@posting.google.com>... > The "Bloodlines" are > not technically clans either, since they don't have a methuselah > Oops, brain fart... methuselah = antediluvian

texas...@yahoo.com (The Fanboy) wrote in message news:<f99d61c5.0112...@posting.google.com>... > > Yeah. Patagia: Flaps Allowing Limited Flight doesn't really cut it. > > But isn't the "flight" that Gargoyles get unique to them? > > (aerodynamically unsound, and all that?) > > Baali can get Flight with Concordance, so it's not unique. But > Nosferatu can, at best, glide, so Flight isn't really a viable option. > Gangrel only fly in their "flight" form, which is usually small, > fast, and mostly harmless -- so it's not terribly viable for them, > either. > But, but... see, the thing is... perhaps Nos don't fly the same *way* that Gargoyles do, but who cares. A Nos using Patagia, a Gangrel in bat form, a Tremere using Movement of the Mind... these are all forms of flying, and approximating them as the Flight ability is not at all out of line. A Nos using Patagia could certainly "Pounce". He might not be able to "Soar" effectively, but he could "Patrol" by jumping from rooftop to rooftop. Who cares what the actual mechanic is in the WOD. Why not use Flight as more than simply a different symbol for Gargoyle clan cards??? > > Shouldn't Ian Forestal, or Marlene the Infernalist be infernal? What > > about someone with an Infernal Pact or an Infernal Familiar? The word > > "infernal" and the concept of extra power for it has been used, but > > I'm in no hurry to see the new game mechanic (penalty) applied to my > > !Tremere. > Well, you wouldn't want it applied to your existing !Tre, because they are balanced for not being infernal. But what about, say, an infernal 4 cap with no disciplines and Uncle Ian's ablitily? Or an Infernal Malkav who has sold his soul to demons in exchange for Flight and the ability to play Temporis cards? 8) > > That would be great! I want more combinations of the > > meat-and-potatoes of the game: Ani Aus Dom For Obf Pot Pre. However, > > WW, I don't want any clans BUTCHERED to avoid having to print a new > > discipline, ie, the Nagaraja: What happened to Nihilistics?! > > It became a path of Necromancy in tabletop third edition. > Personally, I'd love to see clans butchered to avoid having to print new disciplines. Many of the new disciplines piss me off and are entirely unecessary. I have all these Obeah cards, but only one vampire (Ian Forestal) who can actually use any of them, except for their useless aus or pre split. Why couldn't Valeran and Obeah just be two paths of the same discipline? (Hell, if you wanna know what I really think... I think the Salubri should be represented by a single 7 cap Caitiff with AUS FOR tha and a special ability/special restrictions.) The one evolved from the other anyway, and both do very similar things in the BL expansion. What if there was just some Obeah cards that had a slightly different effect if played by an !Sal? With all of these disciplines owned by a single clan and attributes on vampires of a single clan all of which have the given discipline, there's no longer any real difference between a clan card and discipline card. Daimoinen cards that say "requires an infernal vampire" might as well just say "Ian Forestal can't use this card" (why? who knows... whoever wrote the card apparently felt the need to exclude that poor guy, and anyone who uses unorthodox means for using odd disciplines - it's not like *any* minion using Daimoinen wouldn't need to have some connection to Infernals anyway just to use the discipline...). Does it make any difference that Poker says "Cold Iron" instead of "does agg damage to Kiasyd" (or that Kiasyd say "Cold Iron Vulnerability" instead of "takes agg damage from Poker")? Would anybody have noticed or cared if Call the Great Beast were printed as a Daimoinen card with no superior instead of as a Baali clan card? Does anybody even like the Ahrimanes at all? What a useless clan with a wussy discipline. If *I* was running the Sabbat, I'd hunt down these whiny little sluts post-haste. But I digress. The reason I don't like the bloodlines expansion is that it introduces a ton of new mechanics, new clans, and new disciplines and then entirely fails to flesh them out or allow them (in the case of game mechanics) to have any effect on the game outside of a narrow special-case. This wouldn't be such a bad thing if we were soon to see some expansion on the ideas which have just been introduced, but the next set is going to be a Cam base set (blech), and who knows if we'll have *anything* after that, or if it will be a Dark Ages set featuring Cappadocians and *their* silly little discipline. > > Hey, count me in. But, barring that...Go Serpents of the Light! > > They would be Followers of Set with the Sabbat tag. > Uh... that would be evil and wrong. For one thing, making all the other Antitribu into their own clan and then making it different for Settites, Ravnos, and Assamites would be pretty silly, since they are just as separate from their independent clans as the other antis are from their Camarilla clans. But even more so for the Serpents of Light. SoL have nothing to do with the Settites and are a different clan in almost everything but disciplines.

In message <5287ede4.01122...@posting.google.com>, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes: >Daimoinen cards that say "requires an infernal >vampire" might as well just say "Ian Forestal can't use this card" >(why? who knows... whoever wrote the card apparently felt the need >to exclude that poor guy, and anyone who uses unorthodox means for >using odd disciplines - it's not like *any* minion using Daimoinen >wouldn't need to have some connection to Infernals anyway just to use >the discipline...). Not just Ian Forestal, of course, in technical terms. (Though probably practical ones.) Clan Impersonation: Baali->Sanguine Instruction Embrace->Sanguine Instruction (even the sick value of a Writ of Acceptance, Praxis Seizure: Something and a Third Tradition) Infernal Familiar Vial of Elder Vitae <------- this one is being regularly overlooked Baali->Clan Impersonation: Something Else->Sanguine Instruction Herald of Topheth - can play Daimoinon, is not infernal Take one Vial of Elder Vitae. Mix with one Lasombra deck. Add Camarilla Vitae Slave. Burn Vial of Elder vitae to *give* your vampire a basic level discipline for a period of time. Use Camarilla Vitae Slave to up this to superior, which they actually have (rather than Ian Forestal pretend-stylee). Take one Sanguine Instruction. Season to taste. Cackle maniacally. (Optional: Realise your deck doesn't actually have anything else it can do.) [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<h088GpBm...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... [snip stuff about poor Uncle Ian] > Vial of Elder Vitae <------- this one is being regularly overlooked It sure is. I've been thinking about this one a lot. Get a couple in play on your bloodline vamps with the inferior of the discipline, burn the Vial to get superior, Sanguine Instruction one of the others, and continue. > Take one Vial of Elder Vitae. Mix with one Lasombra deck. Add > Camarilla Vitae Slave. Burn Vial of Elder vitae to *give* your vampire > a basic level discipline for a period of time. Use Camarilla Vitae > Slave to up this to superior, which they actually have (rather than Ian > Forestal pretend-stylee). Take one Sanguine Instruction. Season to > taste. Cackle maniacally. I like it. Thought about this one as well, but not sure what the Lasombra could really use. Aside from Mythceria, I suppose. Then again, I've been considering throwing Sanguine Instruction into a bunch of Tremere decks just for the heck of it. Aisling teaches Cardano big eye. Cardano teaches Aisling fortitude. Season to taste. > (Optional: Realise your deck doesn't actually have anything else it can do.) Hey! Stop giving away all my secrets! Xian

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<h088GpBm...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <5287ede4.01122...@posting.google.com>, Chris > Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes: > >Daimoinen cards that say "requires an infernal > >vampire" might as well just say "Ian Forestal can't use this card" > >(why? who knows... whoever wrote the card apparently felt the need > >to exclude that poor guy, and anyone who uses unorthodox means for > >using odd disciplines - it's not like *any* minion using Daimoinen > >wouldn't need to have some connection to Infernals anyway just to use > >the discipline...). > > Not just Ian Forestal, of course, in technical terms. (Though probably > practical ones.) > True, true, that's why I added that they just want to exclude poor Ian, and anyone who uses unorthodox means for using odd disciplines. It doesn't seem overpowered for your Lasombra with a Vial, a Vitae Slave, and Saguine Instruction to be able to play Contagion. Hell, it seems like a big ole waste of time, and you still can't do it. It's not thematically wrong for him to play Contagion either, since he'd *have* to sell his soul to some sort of demon to even be able to use Daimoinen anyway (it just goes on behind the scenes... when you're not looking 8) ). But the card is strangely restricted to Infernal vampires only, which is really the same thing as saying it can only be used by Baali, which are the only ones that normally have Daimoinen anyway, so why the restriction? You see where I'm going with this? It's not really a big deal that your Lasombra trick doesn't allow them to play Contagion, because it's so corner-case, and who cares anyway... but it's just annoying to have little restrictions that don't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but end up cutting off little things that you otherwise *could* do. Kind of like a 10CL... wouldn't really hurt many decks, but would needlessly restrict what you might otherwise be able to do with, say, 30 Night Moves. > > Take one Vial of Elder Vitae. Mix with one Lasombra deck. Add > Camarilla Vitae Slave. Burn Vial of Elder vitae to *give* your vampire > a basic level discipline for a period of time. Use Camarilla Vitae > Slave to up this to superior, which they actually have (rather than Ian > Forestal pretend-stylee). Take one Sanguine Instruction. Season to > taste. Cackle maniacally. (Optional: Realise your deck doesn't > actually have anything else it can do.) > Nice trick. You can do that, then laugh at everyone because you have a vampire with Daimoinen with no Baali in the deck, then declare that you have won, pack up your cards and leave. 8)

Chris Berger wrote: > True, true, that's why I added that they just want to exclude poor > Ian, and anyone who uses unorthodox means for using odd disciplines. > It doesn't seem overpowered for your Lasombra with a Vial, a Vitae > Slave, and Saguine Instruction to be able to play Contagion. Hell, it > seems like a big ole waste of time, and you still can't do it. It's It doesn't seem overpowered to let Ghouled Street Thug play Channeling the Beast. That is indeed a big ole waste, since he could more conveniently play Undead Strength, and you still can't do it. > not thematically wrong for him to play Contagion either, since he'd > *have* to sell his soul to some sort of demon to even be able to use > Daimoinen anyway (it just goes on behind the scenes... when you're not > looking 8) ). But the card is strangely restricted to Infernal > vampires only, which is really the same thing as saying it can only be > used by Baali, which are the only ones that normally have Daimoinen > anyway, so why the restriction? You see where I'm going with this? Playing a Daimoinon card is not the same as being infernal. Your argument above leads to "A vampire who plays a Daimoinon card becomes infernal", not "Contagion should've been designed differently". > It's not really a big deal that your Lasombra trick doesn't allow them > to play Contagion, because it's so corner-case, and who cares > anyway... but it's just annoying to have little restrictions that > don't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but end up cutting off > little things that you otherwise *could* do. Kind of like a 10CL... > wouldn't really hurt many decks, but would needlessly restrict what > you might otherwise be able to do with, say, 30 Night Moves. Like the 90-card VEKN library limit and the 30-pool starting amount. The game has to have some restrictions (rules), and some of those could be replaced/rewritten without much effect on the (new resulting) game (and some changes, of course, would have a greater impact on the new resulting game). For instance, the unique rule for vampires could easily be rewritten to say that a Meth cannot have more than one of the vampire in her crypt (and that's all - no "contesting" vampires). Such a change wouldn't have much impact on the game (a few "corner-case" decks that use 12 copies of the same vampire beingthe most obvious exceptions). Q: So what's the deal with the contesting? A: It's the way it was designed. Q: So what's the deal with the "infernal" restriction on Contagion? A: Design. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In message <3C2B7058...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> mumbled something about: >Q: So what's the deal with the "infernal" restriction on Contagion? >A: Design. It seems obvious, actually. Contagion causes a 1-pool-per-turn loss during one's untap, something which is highly difficult to avoid without retaining the Edge. Very few cards produce this effect -- Anarch Revolt, Antediluvian Awakening, and Judgement: Camarilla Segregation come to mind as the only examples. Of those, Anarch/Antediluvian affect EVERY Methuselah, including the person who played the card. Both also have relatively simple "remove" clauses, although the cost is high for Antediluvian. Judgement: CamSeg will almost certainly not affect the playing Methuselah, but also may not affect any other Methuselahs at the table, making it a slightly more corner-case card and (depending on your seating position) potential wallpaper in your deck. Contagion's "infernal" restriction simply brings its effect into line with Anarch/Antediluvian (cannot cause unstoppable pool loss to the whole table without suffering its effect yourself) -- which is appropriate, considering that Contagion can never be removed and is very difficult to even temporarily suppress. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Take one Vial of Elder Vitae. Mix with one Lasombra deck. Add > Camarilla Vitae Slave. Burn Vial of Elder vitae to *give* your vampire > a basic level discipline for a period of time. Use Camarilla Vitae > Slave to up this to superior, which they actually have (rather than Ian > Forestal pretend-stylee). Take one Sanguine Instruction. Season to > taste. Cackle maniacally. (Optional: Realise your deck doesn't > actually have anything else it can do.) That would work well when giving Mytherceria to your other Lasombra if you don't pull up any Kiasyd. Fanboy

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3C2B7058...@white-wolf.com>... > Chris Berger wrote: > > True, true, that's why I added that they just want to exclude poor > > Ian, and anyone who uses unorthodox means for using odd disciplines. > > It doesn't seem overpowered for your Lasombra with a Vial, a Vitae > > Slave, and Saguine Instruction to be able to play Contagion. Hell, it > > seems like a big ole waste of time, and you still can't do it. It's > > It doesn't seem overpowered to let Ghouled Street Thug play > Channeling the Beast. That is indeed a big ole waste, since he > could more conveniently play Undead Strength, and you still > can't do it. > That's quite a nonsequitur. Either you're trying to bait me (which of course you'd never do *grin*), or you didn't really read the whole thread (not blaming you for that... even I got a little bleary-eyed trying to reread my long post above to make sure there weren't a lot of glaring typos). It's not like Channeling the Beast is a potence card that says "cannot be played by Ghouled Street Thug" on it. My point is, that this restriction on Contagion that makes it only usable by Infernal vampires - a) does not have much effect on the game... every vampire but Ian who could normally (i.e. without a seperate card effect) use Contagion can still use it. Every vampire who *has* Daimoinen is Infernal, so a restriction on a Dai card that says it can only be used by Infernals is very corner-case. b) does not restrict an overpowered combo... Normally, minor exceptions and restrictions on events which are unlikely to occur seem to be acceptable when they prevent an unbalancing situation. If the ability of a non-Infernal vamp to get Daimoinen and use Contagion were overpowered, then the card should certainly require that the vampire be Infernal. As it stands now, I don't *really* have a problem with Contagion requiring an infernal vamp. It's just that the restriction doesn't really mean anything practical. Just extra text for no reason. It's an example of what I see as the greater problem with the expansion in general. Cold Iron Vulnerability means that a grand total of 5 vampires (mostly of below-average utility) take aggravated damage from a *single* melee weapon. The Flight symbol on cards might as well be a Gargoyle clan symbol (other than the superior level of a single Dai card, and one Baali ally, both of which *could* conceivably just say that the minion in question could play combat cards requiring a Gargoyle). Scarce could just as easily have been "only one member of this clan may be in play at a time", since AFAICT, none of the scarce vamps are worth an extra 3 pool (the same complaint I had before BL was released). My point is that all of these new game mechanics, which seem to have taken up a lot of ink in all those rules pamphlets, are extremely corner-case and barely effect the game at all. This could be said of the new clans and disciplines too, but that's another complaint altogether. My point in the above few rants was that I really hope that these mechanics are fleshed out. If we get some more options for using Flight (i.e. with some tha, Nos, pro, maybe VIS, some new allies, etc.), then my complaint, at least as far as it applies to Flight, will be unfounded. However, if the Camarilla set does as poorly sales-wise as I suspect it might, then I fear for the likelihood of even another set in which to do such fleshing out. And if the history of WW is any clue, even if we get another expansion, I wouldn't be surprised if it *was* a Dark Ages set focusing on the Cappodocians and whatever other creepy crawlies roamed about back then.

In message <5287ede4.0112...@posting.google.com>, ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Chris Berger) mumbled something about: >As it stands now, I don't *really* have a problem with Contagion >requiring an infernal vamp. It's just that the restriction doesn't >really mean anything practical. Just extra text for no reason. It's You mean Ian Forestal gaining Contagion and the rest of the table losing 1 pool per turn on their untap, with little recourse except somehow torporizing and diablerizing (to prevent rescues) Ian, is no reason? Seems to penalize non-Rush-combat decks excessively, in my opinion. Anarch Revolt's vote to burn can be called by any vampire. Antediluvian Awakening and Judgement: Camarilla Segregation can all be removed no matter what your deck is, although the cost is high. Contagion can only be removed by a deck that can successfully kill Ian -- and if you're going to make Ian Contagious, then you're going to certainly put ways in to keep him alive. Limiting Contagion to infernal vamps means that there's no way to cause near-unstoppable pool loss without also taking it yourself, and closes any potential loopholes before they're even open. >an example of what I see as the greater problem with the expansion in >general. Cold Iron Vulnerability means that a grand total of 5 >vampires (mostly of below-average utility) take aggravated damage from You mean those five vamps with the stealth discipline, the bleed discipline, and the chock-full-of-toys Bloodlines discipline are of below-average utility? Funny, I thought stealth bleed was typically quite effective. >a *single* melee weapon. The Flight symbol on cards might as well be And any new weapons that might be printed in future sets. ("Cold Iron", with a picture of a human taking a flatiron out of a freezer and flinging it at a vampire, comes to mind.) >a Gargoyle clan symbol (other than the superior level of a single Dai >card, and one Baali ally, both of which *could* conceivably just say >that the minion in question could play combat cards requiring a >Gargoyle). Scarce could just as easily have been "only one member of Not all Flight cards are combat cards. example: Soar, Patrol. If you then change the wording to "may play cards requiring a Gargoyle", then you open up a whole new pile of loopholes -- do you really want the Baali to be able to recruit a Rock Cat? After all, Rock Cat is a "card requiring a Gargoyle"... >this clan may be in play at a time", since AFAICT, none of the scarce >vamps are worth an extra 3 pool (the same complaint I had before BL >was released). Just because you can't figure out how to gain 3 pool doesn't make the scarce vamps automatically not "worth" it. I would expect Nu, the Pillar, to find very little difficulty in taking one superior Enchant Kindred action per turn -- if only two of these are ever successful, then the 3 extra pool is long since paid for. >My point is that all of these new game mechanics, which seem to have >taken up a lot of ink in all those rules pamphlets, are extremely >corner-case and barely effect the game at all. This could be said of You haven't looked closely enough. >the new clans and disciplines too, but that's another complaint >altogether. My point in the above few rants was that I really hope You haven't tried to use them yet. >that these mechanics are fleshed out. If we get some more options for >using Flight (i.e. with some tha, Nos, pro, maybe VIS, some new >allies, etc.), then my complaint, at least as far as it applies to >Flight, will be unfounded. However, if the Camarilla set does as Ah, so you DO realize just how much you're talking out of your ass here. >poorly sales-wise as I suspect it might, then I fear for the >likelihood of even another set in which to do such fleshing out. And The sky is falling! The sky is falling! [ quoted text not captured ]

>My point is, that this restriction on Contagion that makes it only >usable by Infernal vampires - a) does not have much effect on the >game... every vampire but Ian who could normally (i.e. without a >seperate card effect) use Contagion can still use it. Every vampire >who *has* Daimoinen is Infernal, so a restriction on a Dai card that >says it can only be used by Infernals is very corner-case. b) does >not restrict an overpowered combo... Normally, minor exceptions and >restrictions on events which are unlikely to occur seem to be >acceptable when they prevent an unbalancing situation. If the ability >of a non-Infernal vamp to get Daimoinen and use Contagion were >overpowered, then the card should certainly require that the vampire >be Infernal. I don't know why everyone's complaining about Contagion so much. Don't forget that Concordance, and the three Condemnations all require Infernal vampires as well (for their dai versions). Also, note that all of the Sanguinuous cards require Blood Brothers (which is also rather redundant since it's mainly Blood Brothers who can play the cards) and have a circle requirement as well. Halcyan 2

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:4l9n2usetp5cjvijj...@4ax.com... > In message <5287ede4.0112...@posting.google.com>, > ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Chris Berger) mumbled something about: > > >As it stands now, I don't *really* have a problem with Contagion > >requiring an infernal vamp. It's just that the restriction doesn't > >really mean anything practical. Just extra text for no reason. It's > > You mean Ian Forestal gaining Contagion and the rest of the table losing > 1 pool per turn on their untap, with little recourse except somehow > torporizing and diablerizing (to prevent rescues) Ian, is no reason? Exactly. It's going to ( typically ) cost you a pool to play it and it's more of a "balancer" I feel. If I have to pay to untap this guy I want everyone else to loose pool becasue of him too. I think the reason why the cards require infernal minions and not Baali is so that the infernal "cost" is offset by pretty powerful cards and we don't just end up with people CI-ing to Baali to use them. There's also probably RPG concerns as well. > >an example of what I see as the greater problem with the expansion in > >general. Cold Iron Vulnerability means that a grand total of 5 > >vampires (mostly of below-average utility) take aggravated damage from > > You mean those five vamps with the stealth discipline, the bleed > discipline, and the chock-full-of-toys Bloodlines discipline are of > below-average utility? > > Funny, I thought stealth bleed was typically quite effective. The one thing I have against the Kyasid is that the Lasombra didn't exactly need help in the S&B department which is eaxctly what the Kyasid give them. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Kyasid/Lasombra dom/MYT/OBT S&B is more effective than Malk S&B. Then again, dom/OBT is pretty effective too. > >a *single* melee weapon. The Flight symbol on cards might as well be > > And any new weapons that might be printed in future sets. > > ("Cold Iron", with a picture of a human taking a flatiron out of a > freezer and flinging it at a vampire, comes to mind.) I actually thought Frozen Object might be a card that gave a Melee Weapon the Clod Iron attribute. > Just because you can't figure out how to gain 3 pool doesn't make the > scarce vamps automatically not "worth" it. I would expect Nu, the > Pillar, to find very little difficulty in taking one superior Enchant > Kindred action per turn -- if only two of these are ever successful, > then the 3 extra pool is long since paid for. If you're going to use scarse ( even one ) vampire(s) as a major part of your deck then you have to allow for the cost. You have to make them worth the 3 extra pool. I'd pay 3 extra pool for Revealations on a stick ( Le Dinh Tho ) in a bleed deck that doesn't have Auspex. If you're a DI fan, I'm sure you'd pay 3 extra pool to be able to ( pretty much ) play DI as a reaction card and have it cost 2 blood rather than 1 pool and a MPA. I think the 3 pool does a very good job of what it's designed to achieve. If Trujah weren't scarse ( or there was some other mechanism ) you'd probably see an awful lot of decks with a token Trujah and a bunch of Rewind Time. > >My point is that all of these new game mechanics, which seem to have > >taken up a lot of ink in all those rules pamphlets, are extremely > >corner-case and barely effect the game at all. This could be said of > > You haven't looked closely enough. At first I thought the number of new terms that have very limited scope was a bit much but to leave them out would take away from the flavour of the new set and it's that very flavour that I think attracted many "veteran" players in the first place. > >the new clans and disciplines too, but that's another complaint > >altogether. My point in the above few rants was that I really hope > > You haven't tried to use them yet. > > >that these mechanics are fleshed out. If we get some more options for > >using Flight (i.e. with some tha, Nos, pro, maybe VIS, some new > >allies, etc.), then my complaint, at least as far as it applies to > >Flight, will be unfounded. However, if the Camarilla set does as I don't know that I'd like to see the new mechanics/disciplines fleshed out too much. I'd like to see obscure disciplines and clans stay that way, it keeps the character of the game. I was dissapointed that so many new clans got Necromancy, I was happy that it was pretty-much only the domain of the Giovanni. Sure it opens up new combos but it detracts from the character of the game. The character of the game is something I really like and I'd hate to loose some of it.

> As it stands now, I don't *really* have a problem with Contagion > requiring an infernal vamp. It's just that the restriction doesn't > really mean anything practical. Just extra text for no reason. It's > an example of what I see as the greater problem with the expansion in > general. This argument is true if WW doesn't intend to support the 12 bloodlines and their disciplines/new mechanics further down the line. We don't know that. And if people keep bitching about it, then they probably won't. You're creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're making so much noise about the worthlessness of the set that you're making it worthless, when in fact, there may be future expansions that further develop the new mechanics. >Cold Iron Vulnerability means that a grand total of 5 vampires (mostly of >below-average utility) take aggravated damage from a *single* melee weapon. For now. There may be more Kiasyd down the road, and there may be more cold iron further down the road. Why not put "poker does agg damage" text on the Kiasyd instead of cold iron vulnerability? Because then, there will be only one card that does the damage. Ever. That's narrowing the disadvantage on the vampires needlessly. Why not put "does agg damage to Kiasyd" on the Poker? Two reasons: Printed Kiasyd can avoid damage with CI, and impersonating/created Kiasyd now take damage. Neither of these happen under present card text/rules. And it changes the game, albeit slightly. >The Flight symbol on cards might as well be a Gargoyle clan symbol (other than >the superior level of a single Dai card, and one Baali ally, both of which >*could* conceivably just say that the minion in question could play combat >cards requiring a Gargoyle). Hmm...I think a vampire that can fly should be able to Soar. That text doesn't accomodate that. Flight does. You can't open it up to "All cards that require Gargoyles" because then you have Baali bringing out Rock Cats, and that makes NO sense. >Scarce could just as easily have been "only one member of this clan may be in >play at a time", since AFAICT, none of the scarce vamps are worth an extra 3 >pool (the same complaint I had before BL was released). I've seen a mono Trujah deck. He had fun playing it. If he had realized that Scare meant an additional three pool for each already in play, he would've done some serious damage. He got ousted because he didn't fully understand the mechanic -- that's all. If you compensate (not hard to do with presence), it's not too much of a loss. And that text is FAR more words printed that "Scarce." I'd hate to see what Mathias would look like with that much extra text -- I tend to forget his +1 intercept as it is. And -- if I want to play a mono-Salubri deck, or a mono-Nagaraja deck, I should be willing to. It's my choice whether or not they're worth the extra pool. I've actually kicked around the idea of adding a second Salubri to a deck that has been using one quite effectively. If I add allies to the library, I probably will. At that point, the defensive utility Obeah affords becomes worth the extra three pool. > My point is that all of these new game mechanics, which seem to have > taken up a lot of ink in all those rules pamphlets, are extremely > corner-case and barely effect the game at all. Perhaps your metagame isn't exploring enough for it to matter, then. >However, if the Camarilla set does as poorly sales-wise as I suspect it might, If they do it the way Sabbat War was done, I don't think it'll do poorly. I'd buy cards just for the chance to get a few of the reprints (mostly Freak Drives, which I'm having trouble trading for locally), and on top of that, nifty new cards? When I have money, count me in! >And if the history of WW is any clue, even if we get another expansion, I >wouldn't be surprised if it *was* a Dark Ages set focusing on the Cappodocians >and whatever other creepy crawlies roamed about back then. I joke about it -- I even talk about how cool it would be -- but I doubt it. Honestly, I agree that Bloodlines could have been done differently. I don't have problems with any of the new clans/disciplines/mechanics -- or how they were presented. But I would've rather seen them broken up a bit. 3 or 4 sets, each focusing on a smaller set of new mechanics. Bloodlines was a bit much all at once, spread too thinly. But it seems to be a plan for future developement, this way. Bloodlines 2 might be on the horizon. Fanboy

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4l9n2usetp5cjvijj...@4ax.com>... > In message <5287ede4.0112...@posting.google.com>, > ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Chris Berger) mumbled something about: > >an example of what I see as the greater problem with the expansion in > >general. Cold Iron Vulnerability means that a grand total of 5 > >vampires (mostly of below-average utility) take aggravated damage from > You mean those five vamps with the stealth discipline, the bleed > discipline, and the chock-full-of-toys Bloodlines discipline are of > below-average utility? MYT isn't nearly as useful as I'd hoped, and without that they're ok, but I think I can find better vamps for most S&B decks. If anything helped out the utility of Dom/Obt S&B, it was the library cards, and not really the kiasyd vampires. > >a Gargoyle clan symbol (other than the superior level of a single Dai > >card, and one Baali ally, both of which *could* conceivably just say > >that the minion in question could play combat cards requiring a > >Gargoyle). Scarce could just as easily have been "only one member of > Not all Flight cards are combat cards. example: Soar, Patrol. > If you then change the wording to "may play cards requiring a Gargoyle", > then you open up a whole new pile of loopholes -- do you really want the > Baali to be able to recruit a Rock Cat? After all, Rock Cat is a "card > requiring a Gargoyle"... If my Baali prey wants a rock cat, so that he can lose even MORE pool (we're already at 5, 1 for the untap that turn and 4 for the cat.... more still if we count the action to get flight or CI in the first place) by all means.

Chris Berger wrote: > My point is that all of these new game mechanics, which seem to have > taken up a lot of ink in all those rules pamphlets, are extremely > corner-case and barely effect the game at all. This could be said of > the new clans and disciplines too, but that's another complaint > altogether. My point in the above few rants was that I really hope > that these mechanics are fleshed out. If we get some more options for > using Flight (i.e. with some tha, Nos, pro, maybe VIS, some new > allies, etc.), then my complaint, at least as far as it applies to > Flight, will be unfounded. If we had designed each set without looking at the big picture, your complaint would not have surfaced. So effectively you're complaining that the new mechanics have been designed with an eye toward the future expansions. That's your perogative, of course. My part in this thread is ended. There is no suitable defense other than "design". [ quoted text not captured ]

"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message news:<u2nldna...@news.supernews.com>... > "Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:4l9n2usetp5cjvijj...@4ax.com... > > In message <5287ede4.0112...@posting.google.com>, > > ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Chris Berger) mumbled something about: > > > > >As it stands now, I don't *really* have a problem with Contagion > > >requiring an infernal vamp. It's just that the restriction doesn't > > >really mean anything practical. Just extra text for no reason. It's > > > > You mean Ian Forestal gaining Contagion and the rest of the table losing > > 1 pool per turn on their untap, with little recourse except somehow > > torporizing and diablerizing (to prevent rescues) Ian, is no reason? > > Exactly. It's going to ( typically ) cost you a pool to play it and it's > more of a "balancer" I feel. If I have to pay to untap this guy I want > everyone else to loose pool becasue of him too. I think the reason why the > cards require infernal minions and not Baali is so that the infernal "cost" > is offset by pretty powerful cards and we don't just end up with people > CI-ing to Baali to use them. There's also probably RPG concerns as well. It would have been nice to include a master or action card that would have some blood/pool cost and made that vampire infernal. So there would atleast BE an option, though should be hard and foolish enough for the users. Well.. This would also mean one another practically useless card that could be only used in combination with some others... hmm. maybe: Lure of the Devil (Unique?) Master 3 Pool Put this card on a non-infernal vampire controlled by any methuselah. This vampire is now considered infernal. So this could really be used also as a nice hoser in some decks. This way you could play get infernality for your non-Baali vampires too ;) though would be quite costly. But you could also do harm to your prey and you could make those True Faiths clogging your hand really useful :). Similar things could have also be thought for some other mechanics of this game. Jukka Lindström But that's just my two cents. PS. For those living in the States - eleven European countries are switching to using mutual currency EURO in 4 days (2002). So we're using cents here in Finland instead of pennis =).

In message <8f507d2e.01122...@posting.google.com>, smci...@onesourcecorp.com (Shaun McIsaac) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4l9n2usetp5cjvijj...@4ax.com>... >> In message <5287ede4.0112...@posting.google.com>, >> ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Chris Berger) mumbled something about: >> >an example of what I see as the greater problem with the expansion in >> >general. Cold Iron Vulnerability means that a grand total of 5 >> >vampires (mostly of below-average utility) take aggravated damage from >> You mean those five vamps with the stealth discipline, the bleed >> discipline, and the chock-full-of-toys Bloodlines discipline are of >> below-average utility? > >MYT isn't nearly as useful as I'd hoped, and without that they're ok, >but I think I can find better vamps for most S&B decks. If anything I think you can't. OBT/dom are found on Guido, Talley, Aurora, Lucita, and Gratiano... a 5, two 6's, and an 8. The Kiasyd slot very well right into the middle of that, and balance out the 8s quite well. >helped out the utility of Dom/Obt S&B, it was the library cards, and >not really the kiasyd vampires. Ah, so a 6-cap with OBT/dom and a 7-cap with OBT/DOM who can bleed anyone and burn a blood for +1 bleed are not useful. I see. And Stone Travel. Inferior for both obt and myt is +1 stealth, superior MYT comes with a built in "cancel combat" if someone actually blocks you. Earth Swords is nice, free ranged damage, and anyone with OBT has access to Darkness Within... if you want to go the bruise-and-bleed route, or just have some bruise ready as a surprise two-card combo. If you've gone rare-trading, Basilisk's Touch is a very nasty card, especially combined with Arms of the Abyss -- S:CE, prevent, or die. Yeah, that must be some of that "below-average utility" I've been hearing so much about. >> Not all Flight cards are combat cards. example: Soar, Patrol. >> If you then change the wording to "may play cards requiring a Gargoyle", >> then you open up a whole new pile of loopholes -- do you really want the >> Baali to be able to recruit a Rock Cat? After all, Rock Cat is a "card >> requiring a Gargoyle"... > >If my Baali prey wants a rock cat, so that he can lose even MORE pool >(we're already at 5, 1 for the untap that turn and 4 for the cat.... >more still if we count the action to get flight or CI in the first >place) by all means. This is a foolish and short-sighted statement. Rock Cat is an extremely effective ally, and the Baali have NO shortage of means to gain pool, whether it be Minion Tap and then OBF/PRE votes with Voter Cap, or plain old Blood Dolls and OBF/PRE stealth bleed with Social Charm or Legal Manipulations. Also, please note that the particular action mentioned in this discussion would be "Concordance", which gives that same Baali +1 strength, Flight, converts all agg taken to normal, and grants an additional untap during his influence phase. This is eminently worth an action, even if all it provided was an extra untap. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Jukka Lindstrom" <prime_at_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > Lure of the Devil > (Unique?) Master > 3 Pool > Put this card on a non-infernal vampire controlled by any methuselah. > This vampire is now considered infernal. > > So this could really be used also as a nice hoser in some decks. This > way you could play get infernality for your non-Baali vampires too ;) > though would be quite costly. But you could also do harm to your prey > and you could make those True Faiths clogging your hand really useful > :). This is a neat idea. I would change it a bit though, maybe make it more like Golconda: Inner Peace Devil Made Me Do It Unique Master 1 Pool Put this card on a non-infernal vampire controlled by any Methuselah. This vampire is now considered infernal. If the vampire with this card belongs to another Methuselah, that Methuselah can burn this card by paying 3 pool at any time. How's zat? Cheers, WES

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes: > If > you've gone rare-trading, Basilisk's Touch is a very nasty card, > especially combined with Arms of the Abyss -- S:CE, prevent, or die. It's an expensive Claws that has to be played before range is determined (ok, opposing vampire burns one extra blood at superior). I don't see putting it into very many decks. -- Regards, Heikki

Heikki Poso <hp...@rock.helsinki.fi> wrote in message news:<ovy9jnk...@rock.helsinki.fi>... [ quoted text not captured ] ya but it burns war ghouls with one punch... and all the other nasty allies... and 3 of them (Kyasid) have auspex. look at the opponents' hand before you play it...

In message <fc6a5b20.01122...@posting.google.com>, freakdrivr <freak...@ponymail.com> writes: >> > If >> > you've gone rare-trading, Basilisk's Touch is a very nasty card, >> > especially combined with Arms of the Abyss -- S:CE, prevent, or die. >> >> It's an expensive Claws that has to be played before range is determined >> (ok, opposing vampire burns one extra blood at superior). I don't see >> putting it into very many decks. > >ya but it burns war ghouls with one punch... and all the other nasty >allies... And if you're playing Lasombra cross-over with Kiasyd, you don't have many Claw options to hand. A Lasombra going into combat, using Camarilla vitae Slave/Vial for "myt", they can throw Basilisk's Touch for a good shot at sending them to torpor and inferior Darkling Trickery for maneuvering - both things which Potence isn't brilliant at. Disarm is possible, but you do run the risk of it not working if you get hit back for a lot, or if you go to torpor. And Burning Wrath is also expensive. A good option, I think. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3C2C661F...@white-wolf.com>... > Chris Berger wrote: > > My point is that all of these new game mechanics, which seem to have > > taken up a lot of ink in all those rules pamphlets, are extremely > > corner-case and barely effect the game at all. This could be said of > > the new clans and disciplines too, but that's another complaint > > altogether. My point in the above few rants was that I really hope > > that these mechanics are fleshed out. If we get some more options for > > using Flight (i.e. with some tha, Nos, pro, maybe VIS, some new > > allies, etc.), then my complaint, at least as far as it applies to > > Flight, will be unfounded. > > If we had designed each set without looking at the big picture, your > complaint would not have surfaced. > > So effectively you're complaining that the new mechanics have been > designed with an eye toward the future expansions. > No, I'm asking that a following set follow along where this one left off. Essentially, I am *hoping* that the new mechanics were designed with an eye toward future expansion. The "complaints" that you talk about are simply my justification for wanting that, because some people didn't agree. I think you're looking for whining where it isn't at, when I am simply trying to explain my reasoning for wanting future expansions to follow this one up. Also, I would hope that the design team doesn't look *too* far ahead, as that has been a downfall of previous CCG's at times. Even with Jyhad, we had hoped that the Independent vampires would be fleshed out in a set to come, and it took nearly 4 years and 2 changes of ownership before that happened. > That's your perogative, of course. > My part in this thread is ended. There is no suitable defense other > than "design". I'm assuming that means you won't read this response, but oh well. Are you reassuring me that these mechanics *will* be further explored, or telling me that the way in which they annoy me is exactly the way they were designed and so would I please STFU? As for why the Kiasyd are below-average utility, I'll reply to that in another post, although I doubt it will convince Mr. Ray, as nothing else has seemed to be able to in the past.

In message <5287ede4.01122...@posting.google.com>, ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Chris Berger) mumbled something about: >As for why the Kiasyd are below-average utility, I'll reply to that in >another post, although I doubt it will convince Mr. Ray, as nothing >else has seemed to be able to in the past. All I can say is this: From all the pre-release reports, the decks which consistently did best were Lasombra/Kiasyd affairs. In one specific pre-release, a Lasombra/Kiasyd S&B deck swept all three tables it played at, making excellent use of the MYT cards I mentioned in my reply to Shaun to either get free stealth, free intercept, or to avoid combat entirely. The shared disciplines between the Lasombra and Kiasyd are OBT/DOM, a combination which leads itself naturally to either stealth/bleed or bruise/bleed. The first of these is, in all its forms, the most effective means of removing pool from one's prey rapidly. The second of these is not too shabby either, although the quality of one's "bruise" is critical to how good the deck will perform. In my reply to Shaun, I discussed two of the obvious S&B vampires. I will also point out here that Marconius is surely a welcome addition to any Lasombra vote deck, as he provides yet another titled OBT/DOM vampire. Bartholomew's special lends itself immediately to a concept involving a Minion Tap and many Telepathic Counters, while the AUS/DOM/NEC frontier is certainly not lacking in minions and has not been explored fully yet. The Giovanni have shown that NEC/dom makes a perfectly good stealth/bleed deck, so I can't see how splashing AUS in for Revelations, Telepathic Counter, and occasional intercept could be a bad thing. Spirit's Touch/Earth Swords strikes me as an annoying two-card combo. Beatrice l'Angou is a bit of a puzzle, but she does have superior MYT and aus/dom/nec, so she could be included in a deck with Bartholomew or the other AUS/DOM/NEC vamps. And she's only a 5-cap, so I don't really expect TOO much. Including any of the Kiasyd in your deck also gives you access to two significant cards: Chanjelin Ward and Riddle Phantastique. Chanjelin Ward is non-unique and free, and giving your big guys extra defense against (D) actions is never a bad thing. Riddle Phantastique played by Bartholomew or Marconius will lock a single vampire down for a full third of the average game -- and this isn't even taking into account that after 4 turns, you may have drawn into another one to continue the lockdown. For 2 blood, a most excellent way to slow down an annoying predator's Beast or Jost Werner. I personally do not care for the Grandest Trick, but unblockable actions are, I suppose, never a bad thing -- I just see it being of very limited use. Spluttering randomly and making casual assertions will never convince me of anything. Including sideline commentary in other responses will merely convince me of some things totally unrelated to V:TES. [ quoted text not captured ]

>ya but it burns war ghouls with one punch... and all the other nasty >allies... >and 3 of them (Kyasid) have auspex. look at the opponents' hand >before you play it... Actually, you'll need a little something else to burn the War Ghoul, since they can prevent a damage each round. But your main point still stands... =) Halcyan 2

> Devil Made Me Do It > Unique Master > 1 Pool > Put this card on a non-infernal vampire controlled by any Methuselah. This > vampire is now considered infernal. If the vampire with this card belongs to > another Methuselah, that Methuselah can burn this card by paying 3 pool at > any time. > I think that the following one would be better, and more apropriate as for WOD background: Apostate master cost: 3 pool Put this card on a ready vampire that is not a Baali. This vampire is now infernal, independant, is considered to be a baali instead of his former clan, and gains basic Daimoinon. If this vampire already had Daimoinon it gains Superior Daimoinon. This card costs 2 less pool if played on one of your vampires and you control a ready infernal Baali. If this card is played on a vampire you do not control, it's controler may discard a master card to burn it as it at the end of this master phase A bit verbose I know, but I'm just an average gamer, not a card game designer. Anyway this card works similar to feral spirit, and represents the way Baali corrupt other clan's vampires. It can be played on oponents vampires, making true faith more usefull, but it comes with a built in sudden reversal. It is costly unless you are already on the road for corruption. It also makes you independant, something that opens some extra options, but removes all your titles. And as oposed to similar cards, it doesn't increase the vampire's capacity. Antoni Ten AKA Imhotep Servant of the Temple of Set in Valencia, Spain

Chris Berger wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3C2C661F...@white-wolf.com>... > > Chris Berger wrote: > > > altogether. My point in the above few rants was that I really hope > > > that these mechanics are fleshed out. If we get some more options for > > > using Flight (i.e. with some tha, Nos, pro, maybe VIS, some new > > > allies, etc.), then my complaint, at least as far as it applies to > > > Flight, will be unfounded. > > > > If we had designed each set without looking at the big picture, your > > complaint would not have surfaced. > > > > So effectively you're complaining that the new mechanics have been > > designed with an eye toward the future expansions. > > > No, I'm asking that a following set follow along where this one left > off. Essentially, I am *hoping* that the new mechanics were designed > with an eye toward future expansion. The "complaints" that you talk > about are simply my justification for wanting that, because some > people didn't agree. > > I think you're looking for whining where it isn't at, when I am simply > trying to explain my reasoning for wanting future expansions to follow "Complaint" was your term. I just followed suit. I'm not looking for whining, I assure you. > this one up. Also, I would hope that the design team doesn't look > *too* far ahead, as that has been a downfall of previous CCG's at > times. Even with Jyhad, we had hoped that the Independent vampires > would be fleshed out in a set to come, and it took nearly 4 years and > 2 changes of ownership before that happened. Leaving options open isn't "looking too far ahead". It's just leaving options open. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<95tp2usldnmrpjilq...@4ax.com>... > In message <5287ede4.01122...@posting.google.com>, > ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Chris Berger) mumbled something about: > > Spluttering randomly and making casual assertions will never convince me > of anything. Including sideline commentary in other responses will > merely convince me of some things totally unrelated to V:TES. > Spluttering? My, someone's in the mood for macho posturing today. Okay, if you want my reasoning on this one, I'll see if I can explain it. I warn you that, from the replies I've elicited in this thread alone, it's pretty apparent that I'm not so good at explaining my thought processes. Anyway, and this is gonna be a very long post... You say that Kiasyd are good for Lasombra S&B, even that the 2 clans together makes a very competitive deck. Assuming that's true (I don't really think the Kiasyd are that great, even in these decks, but I'll go into that later), then they can make 1/2 of a decent deck. Considering that many clans can make competitive decks using only themeselves and no other clan, I think that this already makes them below-average. Just because a clan is of below-average utility, doesn't mean it's useless. When I say below-average, I just mean that more clans have *more* utility than have *less* utility. Malkavians make an effective S&B all by themselves. FoS can make one, although it's better with Baali (and is not as effective as Malks), and they can make Corruption decks much more easily. Ventrue, Toreador, Brujah, all have multiple decks they are effective in, all by themselves. The Kiasyd may be good *with* Lasombra in one type of deck, but if we assume that that's about it, then they're a one-trick pony. If Brujah were only good in a combination Brujah-Toreador vote and bruise deck, then I would say that Brujah had below-average utility. That leads us to the decks they are good in. Beatrice is mostly useless for Lasombra, and IMO so is Bartholomew, with only inf obt and dom at 8. They can both be good for dom/aus/nec decks, but I'll get to that in a bit. Marconius is nice at 9, but it's been said before that Lasombra doesn't need any big vampires. They have suberb big vamps, but are in need of weenie support. At 9, they have Francisco Domingo, Antonio Delgado, and Alvaro. All but Alvaro have DOM OBT POT, all are Archbishops, Alvaro and Francisco both (basically) have +1 bleed, and Alvaro and Antonio have semi-decent special abilities. Marconius has DOM OBT MYT pot, +1 strength (probably useless in this deck... I use potence for Thrown Gates, personally - I suspect that the most efficient way to do this deck is to either skip potence or only use it for the maneuver) and is also an Archbishop. If you're *not* using MYT, then the Lasombra vampires are better by virtue of their special abilities/bleed, and because they benefit from Power Structure (among other things). It's my opinion that MYT isn't really worth *enough* as a discipline to outweigh the advantages of the Las 9 caps, but I'll get back to that. Kassiym is a 6 with dom for OBT MYT. He's actually decent for this deck, although Aurora has essentially the same disciplines plus pot and a moderately useless special. Here, I'd say that Kassiym is worth including in lieu of a 2nd or 3rd copy of Aurora, assuming that there are enough other decent Kiasyd to warrant adding any MYT cards. Julia Prima, as the lowest capacity vampire with DOM OBT, is a good inclusion even if you aren't going to use MYT, so she's in. Note, however, than she's a 7 - an awkward capacity which sits on the "TORIII Line" (the line between 1st turn vamps using Info Highway and 1st turn vamps using Zillah's Valley). There you have one good vamp for this deck, one average vamp, and one below-average vamp. Assuming you use them all, that's 3... a difficult number, since the inferior line of split-discipline cards are almost always much worse than the inferiors of the discipline's normal cards, which have a superior to boot. So to add in MYT, we really need to be able to use them. Luckily, the split line on MYT cards is better than most. You can double up on Julia or Kassiym, if you want, to make it 4. So here, we basically have 3 vampires who can sort of squeak into a Lasombra S&B deck, if we're not using too much potence. The Lasombra deck was hardly dominating before bloodlines, and so, while it might be better with Kiasyd, it's hard to say that the bloodline is *amazing* just because it's good enough to make up 25% of the crypt of a deck that was previously about average in strength. And the Kiasyd vampires aren't really much better than Lasombra vampires, so to say that the Kiasyd are the strength of the deck is kind of misleading. The other two vampires are decent for aus/dom/nec, but since there are no nec splits, and the aus splits on MYT cards are both quite weak, it's not going to be trivial to work them in. Also, the deck will likely have a tough time with playing clan cards at all, even with burn options. Now, as for the usability of the MYT cards... Absorb the Mind - good dom split, a little weak at superior MYT, not a bad card, but in a non-combat deck, I can see them getting squeezed out one-by-one for more useful cards. Aura Absorbtion - weak aus split, unusable by Lasombra, not very useful in a deck that isn't at least 1/3 to 1/2 Kiasyd (normally when you make a deck, you wouldn't include disciplines that only 4 vamps have, would you? Personally, I'd want at least 8 vamps to have the discipline, or 4-6 plus skill cards). Basilisk's Touch - like someone else said... expensive claws. Wouldn't be so bad if the Kiasyd were more of a combat clan. As it is, I can't see putting it into a deck. Darkling Trickery - weak obt split, good myt level - basically a Flash but R1, MYT is a gun hoser (blech) Earth Swords - I'd rather use Thrown Gate (or Sacrement of Carnage, but the real issue is the maneuver, not the damage) Folderol - weak aus split... myt/MYT is like Ecstasy without the awesome superior Steal the Mind - weak dom split, myt is pretty weak since it can be destroyed while you're still tapped from playing it, MYT will save you from bleeds for a little bit, but you still gotta keep Wakes in hand to protect the card. Stone Travel - at obt/myt, it's just average stealth. at MYT... well, I'd rather have the superior effect of Call of the Hungry Dead or Elder Intervention, personally, but still a pretty good card, I admit. All in all, the MYT cards are about average for a non-bloodlines discipline. However, since most disciplines have a lot more cards and can be played by a lot more vampires, the discipline as a whole needs to be well *above* average in order to be useful (because it won't be versatile, it may as well be powerful). I think it fails at that. In general, a below-average (not useless, but below-average) discipline, for a below-average clan.

> Anyway, and this is gonna be a very long post... And I appologise if I trim some of your arguemnts. > You say that Kiasyd are good for Lasombra S&B, even that the 2 clans > together makes a very competitive deck. Assuming that's true (I don't > really think the Kiasyd are that great, even in these decks, but I'll > go into that later), then they can make 1/2 of a decent deck. > Considering that many clans The Kiasyd are a BLOODLINE not a CLAN. they are there to support different decks. With inclan DOM/OBT (although not as common as I'd like) they support Lasombra S+B very well. <snip the rest of the comparison of them to a clan> > That leads us to the decks they are good in. Beatrice is mostly > useless for Lasombra, and IMO so is Bartholomew, with only inf obt and > dom at 8. They can both be good for dom/aus/nec decks, but I'll get > to that in a bit. Both these vamps bring a touch to a lasombra toolbox deck, or even an AUS/OBT intercept deck... They also work well toghter, and can make an interesting Kiasyd (almost) only deck. > Marconius is nice at 9, but it's been said before that Lasombra > doesn't need any big vampires. They have suberb big vamps, but are in > need of weenie support. At 9, they have Francisco Domingo, Antonio > Delgado, and Alvaro. All but Alvaro have DOM OBT POT, all are > Archbishops, Alvaro and Francisco both (basically) have +1 bleed, and > Alvaro and Antonio have semi-decent special abilities. Marconius has > DOM OBT MYT pot, +1 strength (probably useless in this deck... I use > potence for Thrown Gates, personally - I suspect that the most > efficient way to do this deck is to either skip potence or only use it > for the maneuver) and is also an Archbishop. If you're *not* using > MYT, then the Lasombra vampires are better by virtue of their special > abilities/bleed, and because they benefit from Power Structure (among > other things). It's my opinion that MYT isn't really worth *enough* > as a discipline to outweigh the advantages of the Las 9 caps, but I'll > get back to that. But, he's another unique titled vampire who has DOM/OBT and thus is perfect for the fatties Govern out fatties deck. NOTE: 3 10 caps with DOM/OBT now 4 9 caps with (dom)DOM/OBT. Add Gratiano and a few !Ventrue, and your in buisness. With this crypt mix the not being powerstructureable doesn't much matter any more. PS is more for an embrace deck... and since the deck doesn't use PRE, the inherant title is nice. I also switch out Entombs for Burning wraths to shake up the IG metagame once and a while... making pot/+1 str just fine. > Kassiym is a 6 with dom for OBT MYT. <snip> A good mid cap, sneaks, bleeds, does neat tricks. Makes Shadow Twins at superior. >Julia > Prima, as the lowest capacity vampire with DOM OBT, is a good > inclusion even if you aren't going to use MYT, so she's in. Note, > however, than she's a 7 - an awkward capacity which sits on the > "TORIII Line" (the line between 1st turn vamps using Info Highway and > 1st turn vamps using Zillah's Valley). Ahhh... but she is a Sabbat, and untitled, so no my Lasombra Vote deck has every unique vampire able to be Cardinal Benedicted. Sorry Talley but you aren't big enough. Plus the 7 cap is perfect for a GtU for three plus four transfers. I don't mind fodder vamps like her in my biggie vote deck (2 7-caps in the Lasombra one) because it relies on Zillahs, etc. to get out the first vampire only. > There you have one good vamp for this deck, one average vamp, and one > below-average vamp. Assuming you use them all, that's 3... a > difficult number, since the inferior line of split-discipline cards > are almost always much worse than the inferiors of the discipline's > normal cards, which have a superior to boot. Stone Travel at inferior is better than Shroud of Night inferior. (Path aside) I have found the Kiasyd to be a highly useful addendum to my Lasombra decks (the main focus being the vote deck.) I also look forward to using them to toolbox tricks people into oblivion. Cameron

In message <5287ede4.01122...@posting.google.com>, ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Chris Berger) mumbled something about: >You say that Kiasyd are good for Lasombra S&B, even that the 2 clans >together makes a very competitive deck. Assuming that's true (I don't >really think the Kiasyd are that great, even in these decks, but I'll >go into that later), then they can make 1/2 of a decent deck. >Considering that many clans can make competitive decks using only >themeselves and no other clan, I think that this already makes them >below-average. Just because a clan is of below-average utility, Except that many Bloodlines weren't intended to be played as individual clans, but instead as "support" vampires for other clans. Oddly enough, I actually think they could make a reasonably decent mono-clan deck. It would be a bit strange compared to the average S&B floating around out there, but it would have some advantages. >doesn't mean it's useless. When I say below-average, I just mean that >more clans have *more* utility than have *less* utility. Malkavians This makes sense, except that you go out of your way to compare a Corruption deck to an S&B deck. The two aren't really similar in type or function, so you end up comparing apples and oranges to get your "below average" characterization. For example (and referencing another thread), I can make a vote deck using Tzimisce. It won't be as effective as a vote deck using the !Brujah or !Toreador, because the Tzimisce will have a harder time both passing their votes and gaining blood back onto their vampires. Does this make the Tzimisce below-average? No, it means you're trying to put a square peg in a round hole. To truly compare a clan's "utility", you need to focus on what the clan does best, and then see how that stacks up against what other clans do best. For the Kiasyd, it looks like that's being a supporting role in stealth/bleed or stealth/vote, with some freaky twists to either. >make an effective S&B all by themselves. FoS can make one, although >it's better with Baali (and is not as effective as Malks), and they >can make Corruption decks much more easily. Ventrue, Toreador, >Brujah, all have multiple decks they are effective in, all by And very few of those are stealth/bleed, meaning that those three clans are of "below average" utility in that aspect of the game. But again, this is a square-peg, round-hole thing and isn't truly representative of those clans. >themselves. The Kiasyd may be good *with* Lasombra in one type of >deck, but if we assume that that's about it, then they're a one-trick >pony. If Brujah were only good in a combination Brujah-Toreador vote >and bruise deck, then I would say that Brujah had below-average >utility. No, they would have below-average VERSATILITY, something entirely different. They would still be quite useful, though. >That leads us to the decks they are good in. Beatrice is mostly >useless for Lasombra, and IMO so is Bartholomew, with only inf obt and >dom at 8. They can both be good for dom/aus/nec decks, but I'll get >to that in a bit. > >Marconius is nice at 9, but it's been said before that Lasombra >doesn't need any big vampires. They have suberb big vamps, but are in >need of weenie support. At 9, they have Francisco Domingo, Antonio >Delgado, and Alvaro. All but Alvaro have DOM OBT POT, all are >Archbishops, Alvaro and Francisco both (basically) have +1 bleed, and >Alvaro and Antonio have semi-decent special abilities. Marconius has >DOM OBT MYT pot, +1 strength (probably useless in this deck... I use >potence for Thrown Gates, personally - I suspect that the most >efficient way to do this deck is to either skip potence or only use it >for the maneuver) and is also an Archbishop. If you're *not* using >MYT, then the Lasombra vampires are better by virtue of their special >abilities/bleed, and because they benefit from Power Structure (among >other things). It's my opinion that MYT isn't really worth *enough* >as a discipline to outweigh the advantages of the Las 9 caps, but I'll >get back to that. However, you're missing the other point here: a Lasombra vote deck often relies on sheer titled vampire power to pass its votes. Power Structure is nice, but it's even nicer to be able to do without it. Marconius adds yet another unique Archbishop to transfer out, meaning that a heavy Minion Tap deck can probably put 10 votes on the table -- Gratiano, two unique Archbishops, and Moncada. The crypt is much easier to construct -- 2x of each vampire and you're done. As well, every single vampire has OBT. If you want, you can trim out one each of the Lasombra Archbishops (I'd actually bag both Polonia, myself) and include Julia Prima and Kassiyim, giving you 85% chance of having a Kiasyd in your opening crypt -- which provides access to Chanjelin Ward and Riddle Phantastique, both of which are extremely useful for vote decks. Including some Cardinal Benedictions is never a bad option, and Julia is a legitimate target -- as is Bartholomew, who can be included instead of Kassiyim if you go that way. Having several other titled vampires standing next to Alvaro really makes his special shine -- there's nothing like Minion Tapping him for 6, then calling votes with Moncada, Alvaro, and Marconius, in each of which Alvaro abstains. Yes, Marconius could be any of the other titled vamps, but his very existence improves the crypt draw and allows you to focus your crypt on Alvaro while still being sure to get several other titled vamps. If you wanted to go this way, I'd use 4x Alvaro, 2x Gratiano, 1x Angelica, Moncada, Polonia, Delgado, Marconius, and Julia Prima. Here you're almost certain to get 3 unique titled vamps alongside Alvaro to bring out, while Julia's special will always turn out to be useful (and she will later become a Cardinal, as will Gratiano). >Kassiym is a 6 with dom for OBT MYT. He's actually decent for this >deck, although Aurora has essentially the same disciplines plus pot >and a moderately useless special. Here, I'd say that Kassiym is worth >including in lieu of a 2nd or 3rd copy of Aurora, assuming that there I wouldn't include Aurora in this vote deck, and I'd really lean away from Kassiyim. Both fall below the Cardinal line. >are enough other decent Kiasyd to warrant adding any MYT cards. Julia >Prima, as the lowest capacity vampire with DOM OBT, is a good >inclusion even if you aren't going to use MYT, so she's in. Note, >however, than she's a 7 - an awkward capacity which sits on the >"TORIII Line" (the line between 1st turn vamps using Info Highway and >1st turn vamps using Zillah's Valley). However, a 7-cap is well within the "plain old transfer" capacity, since you can't count on Tomb, Info Highway, or Zillah's Valley to show up near the top of your deck. Since most of your vamps are butt-smoking-huge anyway, and Julia has no inherent votes, you probably don't want her out until later anyway. >There you have one good vamp for this deck, one average vamp, and one >below-average vamp. Assuming you use them all, that's 3... a >difficult number, since the inferior line of split-discipline cards >are almost always much worse than the inferiors of the discipline's >normal cards, which have a superior to boot. So to add in MYT, we >really need to be able to use them. Luckily, the split line on MYT >cards is better than most. You can double up on Julia or Kassiym, if >you want, to make it 4. So here, we basically have 3 vampires who can >sort of squeak into a Lasombra S&B deck, if we're not using too much OK, this is completely incorrect if you're talking about S&B. A Lasombra S&B deck could be composed of the following crypt: Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 22, Max: 30, Avg: 6.33) ---------------------------------------------- 2 Guido Lucciano dom obf OBT 5, Lasombra 2 Kassiym Malikhair dom for MYT OBT 6, Kiasyd 2 Talley aus dom OBT POT 6, Lasombra 2 Aurora Van Brande dom for OBT pot 6, Lasombra 2 Julia Prima aus DOM myt OBT 7, Kiasyd 1 Lucita cel DOM FOR OBT pot 8, Lasombra 1 Gratiano DOM obf OBT pot 8, Lasombra, Priscus ...which gives you 4 Kiasyd, all superior OBT, and 4 'old' vamps with DOM for Governing purposes. Since you're working with such big vamps, you're really going to need to chuck around superior Govern -- fortunately, you've got the stealth to make sure it happens. 85% chance of a Kiasyd and a DOM vampire who can Govern out part of your crypt. At this point, you're in pretty solid shape, though. Bleed decks will run headlong into Deflection. Plenty of stealth is available with Shroud of Night, Shadow Play, and Stone Travel. Chanjelin Ward is open for your use, and Riddle Phantastique can lock a vampire of your predator down for 3 turns. For combat defense, Darkness Within and Shadow Strike both provide a maneuver, while Oubliette and Shadow Body provide S:CE if you want to go that way. Eyes of the Night provides some light intercept with a maneuver (always convenient, as some actions just don't need to happen), and if you want, you can go the Darkness Within/Shadow Parasite route to slap people around. Obedience is never a poor choice if you include plenty of Wakes. >potence. The Lasombra deck was hardly dominating before bloodlines, >and so, while it might be better with Kiasyd, it's hard to say that >the bloodline is *amazing* just because it's good enough to make up I wouldn't say it was amazing, but I would certainly say it was a major boon (tee hee) to the Lasombra to get those particular mid-caps. >25% of the crypt of a deck that was previously about average in >strength. And the Kiasyd vampires aren't really much better than >Lasombra vampires, so to say that the Kiasyd are the strength of the >deck is kind of misleading. However, look at the above crypt WITHOUT the Kiasyd. Who do you substitute in their place? The 9-caps? Terrible option, as they take 3 turns to influence. The 4-caps? Ugh... Inferior OBT. As the crypt stands now, you have a perfect setup with NO need for skill cards or influence accelerators such as Info Highway or Zillah's Valley. This leaves you piles of Master space for all kinds of toys. The Kiasyd really are the strength of this deck ...not so much for who they are, but for who their very existence permits you to replace. >The other two vampires are decent for aus/dom/nec, but since there are >no nec splits, and the aus splits on MYT cards are both quite weak, >it's not going to be trivial to work them in. Also, the deck will >likely have a tough time with playing clan cards at all, even with >burn options. All you need to do is make sure you include 4 Kiasyd in the crypt, and you have an 85% chance of getting one in your opening draw. This will solve all the "clan card" problems. >Now, as for the usability of the MYT cards... >Absorb the Mind - good dom split, a little weak at superior MYT, not a >bad card, but in a non-combat deck, I can see them getting squeezed >out one-by-one for more useful cards. Darkness Within/Absorb the Mind -- maneuver to long, steal 1 blood total, and if you happen to find someone with a skill card, snag that too. Lasombra can play this as just a dodge at long range if you don't want to include Sewer Lids or Shadow Parasites. >Aura Absorbtion - weak aus split, unusable by Lasombra, not very >useful in a deck that isn't at least 1/3 to 1/2 Kiasyd (normally when >you make a deck, you wouldn't include disciplines that only 4 vamps >have, would you? Personally, I'd want at least 8 vamps to have the Absolutely. I'm almost guaranteed to get one of them out. I wouldn't make half the deck composed of those cards, but including 10-20 MYT cards? Certainly. By the way, there are 11 vamps who have AUS/DOM/NEC in some form, and 7 of those are 8-caps or less. >discipline, or 4-6 plus skill cards). Gotta work the odds better. =) >Basilisk's Touch - like someone else said... expensive claws. >Wouldn't be so bad if the Kiasyd were more of a combat clan. As it >is, I can't see putting it into a deck. (shrug) I'm glad it's rare. It's a nasty effect, and a little bit easier to make "land" than Claws, but it's also not something you're going to want to do too often. A Lasombra/Kiasyd vote deck could have a field day by letting Marconius intercept actions and play BT/IG/Amaranth. >Darkling Trickery - weak obt split, good myt level - basically a Flash >but R1, MYT is a gun hoser (blech) > >Earth Swords - I'd rather use Thrown Gate (or Sacrement of Carnage, >but the real issue is the maneuver, not the damage) Plenty of maneuvers from OBT (haven't even touched Shadow Step yet), and a free 3R is nothing to sneeze at. >Folderol - weak aus split... myt/MYT is like Ecstasy without the >awesome superior MYT is like Ignorant Fatass -- reduce against ANY methuselah, not just yourself. It seems like a good card for Bartholomew to combine with his Telepathic Counters ("bleed me for 4, or don't waste my time"), or just for him to reach forward and dick around with your prey's bleeds. >Steal the Mind - weak dom split, myt is pretty weak since it can be >destroyed while you're still tapped from playing it, MYT will save you >from bleeds for a little bit, but you still gotta keep Wakes in hand >to protect the card. Dominate didn't have a "tap a minion" action before -- better rethink the "weak" there. "Tap a minion" actions are extremely underrated and invariably come as a huge surprise to someone who gets whacked with one while they were trying to leave a minion untapped to Deflect, Counter, or just to hang out and stop the one big bleeder. Even zero-stealth "tap that minion" actions are rude, as you, well, have to tap to stop it. Protecting the card... well, Darkness Within/Shadow Parasite works well if you're an intercepty sort, since you can save the Big Kaboom until you're sure it's going to land. And Arms of the Abyss provides a convenient combo to get out of the way of ranged strikes, while the occasional Taste will keep you able to play the SP. If you're using this card in the first place, you're intending to do some blocking anyway. So you already have plenty of Wakes. >Stone Travel - at obt/myt, it's just average stealth. at MYT... well, >I'd rather have the superior effect of Call of the Hungry Dead or >Elder Intervention, personally, but still a pretty good card, I >admit. Can't get those effects with OBT. =) >All in all, the MYT cards are about average for a non-bloodlines >discipline. However, since most disciplines have a lot more cards and Hm. I'd say they're well above-average, myself. They're just very focused on specific deck types, and not quite as versatile as, say, Soar. >can be played by a lot more vampires, the discipline as a whole needs >to be well *above* average in order to be useful (because it won't be >versatile, it may as well be powerful). I think it fails at that. In >general, a below-average (not useless, but below-average) discipline, >for a below-average clan. Again, I think you're doing the square-peg, round-hole thing here. Many of these effects aren't even available in other clans, much less in combo with Obtenebration or Dominate. Aura Absorption, for example -- intercept AND stealth for free, something the Giovanni have made great use of with Spectral Divination. But no other clan has a single card that can grant both intercept and stealth, and even the Giovanni have to pay a blood for theirs. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Oddly enough, I actually think they could make a reasonably decent > mono-clan deck. It would be a bit strange compared to the average S&B > floating around out there, but it would have some advantages. Funny you should mention that. I made a mostly mono-Kiasyd deck. It has Talley and Guido to round out the crypt (I only own 2 of each Kiasyd, and I didn't use the one with no obt). Bruse bleed, bruise is mostly OBT combat, with a little MYT thrown in. Enough intercept to defend myself (since I fight damn well, I opted to defend myself through combat instead of deflection/obedience) against all but dedicated S/B. First table, some poor design decisions kept me from doing very well, but I held my own on a very disgusting tables, and the fact that I went OBT combat with Kiasyd instead of Lasombra meant I wasn't contesting vampires with the two Lasombra decks on the table (One OBT/DOM S/B, the other OBT/POT/dom Bruise Bleed). That, alone, worked to a huge advantage. The second game, I won. Earth Swords was always a nasty surprise to my opponent, after seeing lots of Darkness WIthin, Shadow Parasites, and Shadow Strikes. When I have a bit more card selection, I think it'll be a pretty strong deck. I don't have enough MYT to build it around that discipline, but it's doing very well as it is. Fanboy