Poor Smudge + Purity of the Beast

Okay, Here's an odd corner case. I've got Smudge with two animalism master cards on him. I do not control the master cards however. The Methuselah across the table had a hand jam with the masters, and Smudge appeared to be the least likely to do damage with extra disciplines. Now that that's settled, Smudge takes a couple of Purity of the Beast actions. (Not during the same turn obviously.) My prey is less a couple allies and Smudge's capacity has returned to 1. My prey then ousts my cross-table "friend." He disappears, along with his two master discipline cards. Now it seems that Smudge has a -1 capacity. Huh? What happens to him? Is this possible? Other capacity reducing cards (e.g. Violet Tremain and Mind of a Child) have specific text that prevent a vampire's capacity from being reduced below zero. I'd guess the simple answer is that Smudge's capacity doesn't drop below zero for the same reason. The trick is that Purity of the Beast didn't cause Smudge's capacity to drop to -1, it was the ousted Methuselah. Anybody? Rob Grau rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu

[ quoted text not captured ] >Anybody? Hi, Rob. My take would be that, like negative hand damage modifiers, capacity is zero for all game considerations that check current capacity. However, if you try to get him back up to one capacity, say through the use of skill cards, you would need two skill cards to do so (he'd still be considered zero capacity after the first skill card was played). Vampires with zero capacity must hunt each turn, but a successful hunt nets them no blood. Thus, until you catch him up through capacity adding cards, Smudge is effectively caught in an infinite hunting loop. (Note, he's still an eligible blocker if you can untap him, or Wake) Regards, R. David Zopf guenh...@mindspring.com Atom Weaver and V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC

Robert F. Grau wrote: > Okay, Here's an odd corner case. > > I've got Smudge with two animalism master cards on him. I do not control > the master cards however. The Methuselah > across the table had a hand jam with the masters, and Smudge appeared to > be the least likely to do damage with extra disciplines. > > Now that that's settled, Smudge takes a couple of Purity of the Beast > actions. (Not during the same turn obviously.) My prey is less a couple > allies and Smudge's capacity has returned to 1. > > My prey then ousts my cross-table "friend." He disappears, along with > his two master discipline cards. > > Now it seems that Smudge has a -1 capacity. Huh? What happens to him? Is > this possible? > > Other capacity reducing cards (e.g. Violet Tremain and Mind of a Child) > have specific text that prevent a vampire's capacity from being reduced > below zero. I'd guess the simple answer is that Smudge's capacity > doesn't > drop below zero for the same reason. And still another capacity-reducing card - Wrath of the Inner Circle - has reminder text that "A vampire's capacity cannot go below 1". Violet's text is not stated as a reminder - just as a limitation on her ability. Likewise, but less so, Mind of a Child's text appears to be an addition to the effect - not a general reminder. No matter what, however, it is certainly true that a vampire's capacity cannot be less than zero by any means. Capacity, unlike stealth, intercept, hand damage, bleed, etc. is strictly a non-negative measurement. This is inherent in the concept of capacity. Whether or not it can be less than one is another matter. I'll put that on the list for RT review. Until then, treat the minimum as zero (except for Wrath of the Inner Circle). -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html

> No matter what, however, it is certainly true that a vampire's > capacity cannot be less than zero by any means. Capacity, unlike > stealth, intercept, hand damage, bleed, etc. is strictly a > non-negative measurement. This is inherent in the concept of > capacity. > > Whether or not it can be less than one is another matter. I'll put > that on the list for RT review. > > Until then, treat the minimum as zero (except for Wrath of the > Inner Circle). So "until then" adding another skill card to Smudge would increase his capacity to 1 or just to zero in the manner that R. David Zopf suggested in his message? Once again, Rob rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu

In article <369E0FD6...@eos.ncsu.edu>, Robert F. Grau <rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu> writes >Other capacity reducing cards (e.g. Violet Tremain and Mind of a Child) >have specific text that prevent a vampire's capacity from being reduced >below zero. I'd guess the simple answer is that Smudge's capacity >doesn't >drop below zero for the same reason. Not all of them. The Inner Circle one doesn't, IIRC. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net

> Now it seems that Smudge has a -1 capacity. Huh? What happens to him? Is > this possible? > > Other capacity reducing cards (e.g. Violet Tremain and Mind of a Child) > have specific text that prevent a vampire's capacity from being reduced > below zero. I'd guess the simple answer is that Smudge's capacity > doesn't drop below zero for the same reason. That would be my guess as well. Looks like Smudge goes hunting for a loooong time and gets to be Igo's new best friend. Noal McDonald Michigan Jyhad League -- DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors. -Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

[ quoted text not captured ] I see no such suggestion in R. David's post. But, for completeness, 0 (Smudge's old capacity) +1 (from the skill card) = 1. If the reduction is from Mind of a Child (the only capacity-reducing agent that stays in play and only affects the target while it is in play and can reduce a vampire's capacity below 1) and the Mind of a Child was played a a zero-capacity vampire ("reducing" him to zero), then the skill card would still bring his capacity up to one. Similar to the method of calculating stealth after Veiled Sight is played - you simply have to remember in what order the cards were played. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Hi, Rob. > My take would be that, like negative hand damage modifiers, capacity > is zero for all game considerations that check current capacity. > However, if you try to get him back up to one capacity, say through > the use of skill cards, you would need two skill cards to do so (he'd > still be considered zero capacity after the first skill card was > played). Vampires with zero capacity must hunt each turn, but a > successful hunt nets them no blood. Thus, until you catch him up > through capacity adding cards, Smudge is effectively caught in an > infinite hunting loop. (Note, he's still an eligible blocker if you > can untap him, or Wake) > > Regards, > R. David Zopf > guenh...@mindspring.com > Atom Weaver and V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC Erm... I would disagree. Vampires with a current blood of zero must hunt, yes. But that has nothing to do with capacity. A vampire by definition MUST have a capacity of 1 to even exist (if you apply logical WW rules, which I know is not always the case with VTES :) ). Anyway, I don't see how legally a vampire could be reduced below a capacity of 1 and still be alive. Makes absolutely no sense. I would say if a vamp can legally be forced below 1, then they're burned. My opinion only, of course :) -Paul [ quoted text not captured ]