Overall impressions with HttB?

Most of us are still figuring out the good cards to come from the set as well as obtaining the cards to build a deck. However, there are quite a few of us who have glazed over the new card lists, obtained some cards, and pondered not only what can we do with the new set, but what of it is viable at tournaments. Yes, there are some new cards that will be decent and others that will be even better for their in-clan members. There are bound to be cards you use for wallpaper as well. And the distribution is debatable by some although I have not found it to be horrible if you by from separate sources and/or draft and trade. So all in all is there a good taste in your mouth? For me the answer is yes as I have been aching for more bloodlines support and viability. Even better still are the starters (great job guys!). My disappointments are minor. Necromancy didn't get much and I wanted to see more viable vampires for some of the clans. As far as Bloodlines changing the tournament scene I don't think it will have a huge impact or at least not the one some people were hoping for. I think Kiasyd will see a resurgence, Daughters have some hot new votes if they can get them off, Ahrimanes have some good cards and could pop up here and there at a final table, and I fully expect to see Baali take a few tournament wins. Daimonion seems to have gotten some of the best cards. Beyond that I think As the Crow and some other stuff is nice, but I don't see much changing in the long run.

RoddPrime wrote: > Daimonion seems to have gotten some of the best cards. The entire set is clearly a thank-you to Damnans for hosting the EC. /humor Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html Please attend my qualifier! http://members.cox.net/vtesinlv/

Kevin M. wrote: > RoddPrime wrote: >> Daimonion seems to have gotten some of the best cards. > > The entire set is clearly a thank-you to Damnans for hosting the EC. > /humor > > Got a "heh" out of me. best - chris

I like the set. Going to buy a bunch of starters.

[ quoted text not captured ] I haven't seen all the cards but there are some things that I am happy to see. - Ron Spencer is great!!! With all the talk of "bad" art on the group I thought I'd mention that Ron Spencer has made new art for V:tES. - I had thought that all the new vamps were going to be group 6, so it was great to see that Ahrimane and Kyasid have new group 4 vampires (Do Daughters have a new group 4 vamp?) This will make it a little easier to construct group 4 decks of these clans, especially the Ahrimane who seemed to get shafted with the disciplines not meshing well. Kyasid had the same problem to a lesser extent but with a 6 cap with all three clan disciplines at superior unlife is good for them too! And that is not to mention the new Kyasid 6 cap having the ability to give you extra master phase actions! These new vamps are good news for those of us without enough of the group 2 bloodline clans but plenty of the first laibon set(What was it called?). - I like the new clan cards too. For example, I like that Ahrimane now have a path. I don't know if I'll use it but it is there. - I like the melpominee votes that I have seen. Lily Prelude is a great pain vote. And another vote lets you blood up vamps and gives you a one shot combat ends! - The starters are good too. I think good choices were made on the reprints. It is good that deflection was reprinted, if for nothing else than we will stop hearing the "please reprint deflection" gripe! Overall I like the set (at least what I've seen). I think it might be more common to see someone using Sayshilla or Muricia in decks instead of old group 2 Daughters or Ahrimane, like Howler. And definately we will see new Kyasid decks. -Andy

[ quoted text not captured ] > -Andy- Piilota siteerattu teksti - > > - Näytä siteerattu teksti - Groaning Corpse goes a long way to making samedi combat viable, not only is it very good card on itself (par with carrion crows), but it also makes several of the old,seldom used, thanatosis combat cards much better. For example, Withering, Compress, and Rigor Mortis all work well together with it. Now if only they would have some way around s:ce, though I suppose you could always use Tangine and IG. I agree with the person above about ahrimanes also, the new 5 cap ANI spi vampire, and the 2 cap ani spi vampire who are groups 4 and 5 will be awesome boost to group 4 ahrimane crypt, I will probably change my old crypt to 2x both of the new vampires, 2x Gentha Shale, 3x Effie Lowery, and 3x Muricia which gives really nice crypt with almost all superior animalism, and you got that new Vision Quest to make it much easier to get superior spiritus on all of them. New Moon Sigil is also really good, and Ears of the Hare makes ahrimanes not have to rely so much on raven spies for blocking stealthy people.

> (Do Daughters have a new group 4 vamp?) Yes they have. Evil Jensen Cap 6 with interesting special PRE FOR mel and 2 outferiors >This will make it a little > easier to construct group 4 decks of these clans, especially the > Ahrimane who seemed to get shafted with the disciplines not meshing > well. Kyasid had the same problem to a lesser extent but with a 6 cap > with all three clan disciplines at superior unlife is good for them > too! And that is not to mention the new Kyasid 6 cap having the > ability to give you extra master phase actions! Cap 6 with OBT, DOM, MYT and additional master phase for taping him - Isanwayen (group 4) and cap 8 The Arcadian (OBT, DOM, MYT, for, chi and nice special). Both bloodlines was easy to construct on group 4. Group 4 for ahrimanes was the only reasoneable group for gun based wall/combat. AFAIK there is no bloodline such as Kyasid there is Kiasyd bloodline. > - The starters are good too. I think good choices were made on the > reprints. It is good that deflection was reprinted, if for nothing > else than we will stop hearing the "please reprint deflection" gripe! Lot of people still waits for reprints of obtenebration based combat - arms of the abyss and entombment. Personally I'm disappointed by lack of this cards. > Overall I like the set (at least what I've seen). I think it might be > more common to see someone using Sayshilla or Muricia in decks instead > of old group 2 Daughters or Ahrimane, like Howler. And definately we > will see new Kyasid decks. I'm not going to write about DoC because I poorly know this bloodline (I don't play them and I played only once against them). 4 group of ahrimanes was already played. Personally I play only this group. The big advantage of this group are 2 wampires with ANI, SPI. In 2nd gropup only Howler have both this disciplines at superior. About Kiasyd: Tinglestripe is weak (if it would be gun it would be awesome for dragon breath rounds but in this build earth swords seem to be much better combat for mytherceria) Ravager is nice but I'm not sure how unblockable hunts can be core of deck archetype. Gremlins is nice card but with current crypts with Govern the unaligned being much better than Gremlins I don't think that it will change much in Kiasyd decks. If someone will dig the heels in making deck around it ok. but it will be generally worse than Govern based deck. Fearie Wards: Most of the action directed at a player are bleed actions. I don't see how ending such action could be better than redirecting it. Scarlet lore sounds to be the only card upon which can be created new archetypes. I can imagine deck that uses it to gather permanent intercept (abbot, sport bike), combat (Ivory Bow, Black metamorphosis, Kevlar vest) or utility (palatial estate, heart of cheating). It sounds to me like nice fun deck but nothing especially outstanding. Draven is unique and Symposium can be played only once per game so they should not have any significant influence on deck archetypes.

On 7 helmi, 15:49, Satrapa <jedrzej.komorow...@gmail.com> wrote: > Fearie Wards: Most of the action directed at a player are bleed > actions. I don't see how ending such action could be better than > redirecting it. Obedience gets occasionally played *just* for the rush defense. Imagine if it also worked against Sense Dep and bleeds. The Mind Numb- effect isn't that bad either. Sure, it's 2 blood, but at least Marconius can get some mileage out of his special now.

"RoddPrime" <rodd...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:348196ee-3a32-4593...@b35g2000vbc.googlegroups.com... > So all in all is there a good taste in your mouth? New Moon Sigil - just because Ahrimanes in lingerie are hot!!!

"Satrapa" <jedrzej.k...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:d5f9d17f-e6dc-4a1b...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com... > Gremlins is nice card but with current crypts with Govern the > unaligned being much better than Gremlins I don't think that it will > change much in Kiasyd decks. If someone will dig the heels in making > deck around it ok. but it will be generally worse than Govern based > deck. I disagree - bleed with stealth built in it *always* super-nice! It's basically an inferior Dominate Kine for free. (Granted, inferior Dominate Kine is kind of iffy - but that's because you pay 2 blood for it.) Fred

"Satrapa" <jedrzej.k...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:d5f9d17f-e6dc-4a1b...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com... > Fearie Wards: Most of the action directed at a player are bleed > actions. I don't see how ending such action could be better than > redirecting it. At superior, the bleeder doesn't untap next turn. Hello?...

I'm stunned by how awesome this set is. It really feels like all of the headiness of the original Bloodlines set enhanced by 8 years of evolving this game. True Brujah feel like a completely new clan, with retooled combat options Outside the Hourglass and Pocket Out of Time, and Summon History opens up everything to them. Ahrimanes- What can I say, the rich got richer, a +2 transient intercept card and a +2 stealth card? AND Blessing of Beasts? The DAI, Malefica and Striga cards mean all of the old Baali need to be rethought with the new tricks. Shatter the Gate can be really, really powerful. Removing them requires a 6+ cap and the edge, not going to be too many opportunities. This is a good alternate pool loss for them and I would say it's like a mini Week of Nightmares. Tend the Flock is simply pure power, especially when you have Cybele or Huitzipochtli. Kiev circle is the best Blood Brothers circle yet. Chicago was already fantastic, and these guys are cap 4! A lot of brutal new combat cards too. I read the criticism for Three's a Crowd but I don't really understand. Blood Brothers grapple are really, really unstoppable in a fight now that they have a set range card, AND it gives a press, basically like giving superior POT for grapple. This is the card that they needed to put them over. The Salubri, !Salubri and Nagaraja are just plain cool. !Salubri get really huge pushes, probably 2nd to True Brujah. Anu Dippy is the new Lin Dinh Tho- goes in every deck. Congrats, everyone now has access to DOM/ NEC. Asguresh is brutal for gun combat. Serenna is like the lovechild of Matthias and Grita Kircher, although too bad she's Group 6. Gargoyles work very well with Tremere/ !Tremere now. Brick by Brick gives a maneuver at outferior. Voices of the Castle is really what Gargoyles and VIS should be about. Chaundice is a wall. Research and Development creates new deck design space. Dabbler and Cavalier are very playable archetypes- Dabbler is great card design. Those are the highlights for me. Low points- well, some bloodlines didn't get much- Harbringers didn't really get anything new except Blessed Resilience, OBE didn't get anything except the weird DEM helper, although yeah that's decent to build a funky deck around. Samedi got stranger but not really stronger, although Samedi are already quite good. Same with Kiasyd. The bloodlines that really needed help (True Brujah, !Salubri, Blood Brothers) got it in generous portions, and the ones that were already doing fine (Salubri, Samedi, Kiasyd, Harbringers) didn't get too much. Ahrimanes seem to be the only surprising exception- I can't believe they got such a powerful boost. Great set- one of the best ever.

On 7 helmi, 19:06, Dai <jiazhouhuaq...@gmail.com> wrote: > Low points- well, some bloodlines didn't get much- Harbringers didn't > really get anything new except Blessed Resilience, + Shaal Fragment (equipment, +2 hand size, stealable). > OBE didn't get > anything except the weird DEM helper, + Penitent Resilience (Skin of Night or Seduction) and Gift of Sleep (+1 stealth or cancel a combat with an ally). > although yeah that's decent to > build a funky deck around. Samedi got stranger but not really > stronger, although Samedi are already quite good. Same with Kiasyd. Marconius with Eternal Vigilance (and The Rack?) will love Faerie Wards. I think inferior Domain of Evernight + superior Outside the Hourglass for 2 aggravated damage before range is determined deserves a special mention. Both cards are highly playable on their own, both in offensive and defensive combat decks, which makes it even better.

On Feb 6, 9:47 pm, RoddPrime <roddpr...@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes, there are some new cards that will be decent and others that will > be even better for their in-clan members. There are bound to be cards > you use for wallpaper as well. And the distribution is debatable by > some although I have not found it to be horrible if you by from > separate sources and/or draft and trade. I dunno if the distribution is anything other than totally reasonable. Yeah, the commons tend to come in big chunks (i.e. the same 3 or 4 commons are always together in a given pack), but me and a buddy opened a box, and we ended up with about 5 of each common, all the vampires, and a good distribution of rares with few (if any) duplicates. > So all in all is there a good taste in your mouth? For me the answer > is yes as I have been aching for more bloodlines support and > viability. Even better still are the starters (great job guys!). My > disappointments are minor. Necromancy didn't get much and I wanted to > see more viable vampires for some of the clans. What isn't to like? A lot of strong new cards, lots of new vampires to work with. Seems totally solid. > As far as Bloodlines changing the tournament scene I don't think it > will have a huge impact or at least not the one some people were > hoping for. The Daughters seem on first glance to have gotten the best power boost--Lilly Prelude is kind of insane. As is the ability to be unblockable. The Samedi got a good combat boost from Groaning Corpse (although I don't necessarily see that improving them as a clan all that much). The Kisayid got good defense. I like a lot of the gargoyle upgrades (Voice of the Castle or whatever and As the Crow). The Baali look like they will be downright scary. Wider View is going to help bloodlines clans be a tad more competitive, as it helps crypts made of 4-5 different guys work a lot better. > I think Kiasyd will see a resurgence, Daughters have some > hot new votes if they can get them off, Why couldn't they get them off? They have presence and mel gives them stealth. And they can be unblockable in any number of ways. And can Freak Drive. -Peter

As a player who doesn’t ordinarily play any Bloodlines, I’ve found a few interesting cards that I’m very happy with in how they open up general play: 1) Wider View – as already discussed at length, opens up crypt choices somewhat 2) Momentary Delay – useful bite for bruise/bleed decks, can get more out of an action 3) Mind of the Wilds – finally an effective way to run ranged combat and avoid getting stopped by combat ends cards, I’d despaired of Grab’s being the only way to run combat in a Combat Ends heavy metagame. Probaby only works with a bruise/bleed ranged combat option to encourage blocking. 4) Joumlon’s axe – melee decks gets some help against Grab combat 5) Hunger Moon – adds some potency to strategies involving cards such as Society of Leopold by preventing the hunt

[ quoted text not captured ] Rush cards are directed at minions not player so the only "rush" that might be prevented with F.W. is bleeding with bruise :P >At superior, the bleeder doesn't untap next turn. Hello?... Is it that much better than loss of your preys pool? About Gremlins: I'm a big fan of Govern the Unaligned. It lets you bleed with a single card for 3 (just under Archon Investigation), lets you bring more vampires into play and sometimes bloat. Gremlins uses the same slot but either needs 1 additional card to bleed for 3 or bleeds for less. About Domine Kine most likely I'm wrong but I thought that people take this card for superior effect and inferior is used only to utilize this card if superior cannot be used or player is going all out with bleeds (at least I used it always in this way). IMHO Kiasyd have accest to one of the best stealth cards in game (often with great ways to utilize their in other ways - maneuver/ cancel grapple or intercept) built in stealth isn't as important as how much card modifies bleed.

Satrapa wrote: > On 7 Lut, 15:29, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On 7 helmi, 15:49, Satrapa <jedrzej.komorow...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Fearie Wards: Most of the action directed at a player are bleed >> > actions. I don't see how ending such action could be better than >> > redirecting it. >> >> Obedience gets occasionally played *just* for the rush defense. >> Imagine if it also worked against Sense Dep and bleeds. The Mind Numb- >> effect isn't that bad either. Sure, it's 2 blood, but at least >> Marconius can get some mileage out of his special now. > > Rush cards are directed at minions not player so the only "rush" that > might be prevented with F.W. is bleeding with bruise :P well if the rush wasn't directed at the player (as well as the minion), then they wouldn't be able to block with other minions, by the rules on D actions. So your statement cannot be correct. D actions against you exclusively (bleeds, etc), AND cards you control (locations, minions), are ALL D actions against you. And also against whatever it is they are against, obviously. So a Bum's rush is both a D action against you (allowing you to play cards that say 'only usable during a D action against you' etc) and against that minion (for cards that say 'only usable during a D action against a minion you control', etc). -- salem (replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)

On 8 Lut, 07:18, Dragar <amnon_ko...@yahoo.com.au> wrote: > As a player who doesn’t ordinarily play any Bloodlines, I’ve found a > few interesting cards that I’m very happy with in how they open up > general play: > 1) Wider View – as already discussed at length, opens up crypt choices > somewhat Sure. > 2) Momentary Delay – useful bite for bruise/bleed decks, can get more > out of an action Require big caps, i'm unsure if it will be played much, but certainly helpful for some archetypes. > 3) Mind of the Wilds – finally an effective way to run ranged combat > and avoid getting stopped by combat ends cards, I’d despaired of > Grab’s being the only way to run combat in a Combat Ends heavy > metagame. Probaby only works with a bruise/bleed ranged combat option > to encourage blocking. Great card for the tzimisce. Works good with grapple. > 4) Joumlon’s axe – melee decks gets some help against Grab combat It's UNIQUE, that mean, you can have one in play. Hardly help for melee decks. If it would be not unique, and have some kind of dnr and lack of cold iron - sure, it would help melee combat in general. Now it does not help much. > 5) Hunger Moon – adds some potency to strategies involving cards such > as Society of Leopold by preventing the hunt It could be neat in some blood denial decks, perhaps it's even better than restricted vitae, and goes well alongside it.

I don't like the set overall. I was looking for improvements to Samedi and Gargoyles. On vampires and library cards, I just didn't see it. I don't like any of the new gargoyles. There is no reason to use group 3-4, 4-5, or 5-6 when Ublo Satha and Ferox are so much better in group 2. Yes, I like As the Crow and Voices of the castle, but I don't think they got enough cards (or reprinted enough) to make gargoyles a viable option. Brick by Brick is basically a copy of Stone Quills and didn't really change anything. Dive Bomb would be nice, but it suffers the Slave problem. Lead Fist is totally unnecessary given the gargoyles have flight and potence that do the same thing. The Samedi got absolutely crapped on. Their cost to clan discipline spread remains at .85 and makes them really hard to play. Toy is an absolute waste of space who should have been a viable vampire. Pressing the flesh is terrible. Olid Loa is terrible. Decompose is terrible. Stiff Contempt is terrible Yes, under my skin is good, but they already have plenty of stealth Yes, I think Off Kilter is cute. Yes, groaning corpse is the new carrion crows Compare the stuff above to: Kiasyd who got 3 count em...3 vampires with all 3 in clans at superior. Gremlins - Free Kine Dominance Great Symposium - more bloat/crypt management Faerie Wards (a card so overpowered I can't believe I got laughed at when I suggested something similar in the forums) Scarlet Lore Or cards like Ears of the Hare or Death Seeker. I just didn't see many cards I would use or anything that inspires me to make new decks.

> > I just didn't see many cards I would use or anything that inspires me > to make new decks. wow, I am wondering how you do that. There are many good cards to build new decks. Excluding vampires, what do we have: -> shattering the gates makes Baali wall looking good -> blessing of the beast opens new builds for Ahrimanes -> daughters of cacophony gets a great card to get past intercept and another against rush, choir decks have a good kill finally -> 2 new skill cards -> the horde and grotesque, a new BB circle -> speaking about BB, they get an in-clan frontal assault and a set range card -> summon history opens many combo decks -> Death seeker makes !salubri a good clan for combat, finally and that's just for the most obvious stuff... and yet I generally don't like new deck ideas

On Feb 8, 12:27 pm, yesferatu <yesfer...@gmail.com> wrote: > I don't like the set overall. > > I was looking for improvements to Samedi and Gargoyles. > On vampires and library cards, I just didn't see it. > > I don't like any of the new gargoyles. > There is no reason to use group 3-4, 4-5, or 5-6 when Ublo Satha and > Ferox are so much better in group 2. That depends on your clan: Chaundice is almost certainly better than Ublo-Satha for their respective clan; "I'm playing Tremere" is about the only reason you'd prefer to have U-S. Four points of prevention every combat is far, far better than one, easily making up for the one point in capacity. > Brick by Brick is basically a copy of Stone Quills and didn't really > change anything. > Dive Bomb would be nice, but it suffers the Slave problem. What problem? Nothing about Dive Bomb involves being a slave that I can see. > Lead Fist is totally unnecessary given the gargoyles have flight and > potence that do the same thing. > > The Samedi got absolutely crapped on. > Their cost to clan discipline spread remains at .85 and makes them > really hard to play. I dunno. I think you can build a reasonable 4/5 crypt with them in terms of discipline spread. And it's not like all the rest of the bloodlines are stellar when it comes to clan discipline spread (some are, some are also tough.) > Toy is an absolute waste of space who should have been a viable > vampire. > > Pressing the flesh is terrible. I disagree. Aside from the whole "my shambling horde with fortitude rushes you" angle, there's several allies where you often don't care about bleeding that'd be nice to get back into play for free - Carlton and Mylan spring to mind. And unlike Compel the Spirit, there's no 'since your last turn' clause. You can bring them back whenever later in the game you happen to draw the Pressing Flesh. > Olid Loa is terrible. Agreed. > Decompose is terrible. It's not great, but it has its uses, I think. "Can't use additional strikes" is actually pretty useful in my playgroup, for example, as there tends to be at least one deck in every game using those (or so it seems). > Stiff Contempt is terrible Best use I can see for this is with Troglodytia stacking it with Crocodile Tongue. Still not good. -John Flournoy

[ quoted text not captured ] Absolutely right. Samedi is the crappiest clan/bloodline with a lot of distance of the next. And after this expansion... it´s not to believe it but it remains the same. They were, are and be a death group for tournament play !!!

On 8 Lut, 19:27, yesferatu <yesfer...@gmail.com> wrote: > I don't like the set overall. > > I was looking for improvements to Samedi and Gargoyles. > On vampires and library cards, I just didn't see it. WTF ? > I don't like any of the new gargoyles. > There is no reason to use group 3-4, 4-5, or 5-6 when Ublo Satha and > Ferox are so much better in group 2. G4-5 VIS FOR tremere slaves are kinda cool. Those for !tremere are the only playable crypt for them, tupdogs aside. > Yes, I like As the Crow and Voices of the castle, but I don't think > they got enough cards (or reprinted enough) to make gargoyles a viable > option. > Brick by Brick is basically a copy of Stone Quills and didn't really > change anything. > Dive Bomb would be nice, but it suffers the Slave problem. > Lead Fist is totally unnecessary given the gargoyles have flight and > potence that do the same thing. Lead Fists are not unnecessary, you need one less discipline (only vis) and you have option to press. Setting range is nice, as is path in wall deck (my usual hatred toward paths aside). As the crow is very good, and voices is totally solid intercept/bleed reduction that allow them to block stuff, combined with their other toys actually. Slave mechanic is quite good actually. > The Samedi got absolutely crapped on. > Their cost to clan discipline spread remains at .85 and makes them > really hard to play. > Toy is an absolute waste of space who should have been a viable > vampire. Toy is Toy, he is good vampire on it's own, he might not be best samedi, but good !malkavian slave. > Pressing the flesh is terrible. > Olid Loa is terrible. > Decompose is terrible. > Stiff Contempt is terrible > > Yes, under my skin is good, but they already have plenty of stealth > Yes, I think Off Kilter is cute. > Yes, groaning corpse is the new carrion crows This is good stealth. Yes, it allow new strategies. Yes, it make their combat half decent. > Compare the stuff above to: > Kiasyd who got 3 count em...3 vampires with all 3 in clans at > superior. > Gremlins - Free Kine Dominance > Great Symposium - more bloat/crypt management > Faerie Wards (a card so overpowered I can't believe I got laughed at > when I suggested something similar in the forums) > Scarlet Lore > Or cards like Ears of the Hare or Death Seeker. Two in each groupings, get your facts right. Gremlins are nice, but there is govern the unaligned. Very good card. Faerie Wards are solid. Scarlet lore is cool. Both of those are solid. > I just didn't see many cards I would use or anything that inspires me > to make new decks. Gargoyle get a boost and Samedi get a boost. Samedi and thanatosis used to sucks, now they sucks less. Gargoyles are now strong.

Hey John, > That depends on your clan: Chaundice is almost certainly better than > Ublo-Satha for their respective clan; "I'm playing Tremere" is about > the only reason you'd prefer to have U-S. Four points of prevention > every combat is far, far better than one, easily making up for the one > point in capacity. > -Chaundice is an anti-slave, which is in the minority, and cost 1 more pool. She's not bad, but compared I prefer group 2-3 to group 5-6 and the set didn't do enough to alter that. > What problem? Nothing about Dive Bomb involves being a slave that I > can see. -Since gargoyles can't take directed actions unless their master is in play, the card is useless unless you have a Tremere/!Tremere. Typically, the gargoyle decks I have seen are slow and severely crippled by the slave mechanic. Adding another card which is limited by that mechanic doesn't really help. It's the same reason Stone Dog looks awesome on paper, but doesn't work in play. >it's not like all the rest of the > bloodlines are stellar when it comes to clan discipline spread -Actually, that is exactly what I am saying. Most of the other bloodlines do have a great discipline spread: Artiel is perfect for !Salubri: 6 for 6 Arishat is perfect for Baali: 6 for 6 Azrael is perfect for !Salubri: 5 for 5 Evil Jensen is pretty good for Daughters: 5 for 6 Fustuk is pretty good for gargoyles: 5 for 6 Greer Worder is pretty good for Kiasyd: 3 for 4 Harlan Graves is perfect for Daughters: 4 for 4 The Horde is perfect for baali: 3 for 3 Isanwayden is perfect for Kaisyd: 6 for 6 Janet Langer is perfect for Daughters: 3 for 3 La Viuda Blanca is pretty good for Harbingers: 5 for 6 Matthew is pretty good for Salubri: 6 for 7 I can't think of one gargoyle or samedi that I thought HAD to be in my next deck. I instead spend my time figuring out what I'd need to include to overcome their obvious weaknesses. The Samedi still have 1 vampire that has in clan disciplines at superior, he's a 9 cap and he's in group 2. One vampire with 3 superior is an 8 cap and doesn't even have necromancy. Molock is decent for the cost. > > Pressing the flesh is terrible. > > I disagree. Aside from the whole "my shambling horde with fortitude > rushes you" angle, there's several allies where you often don't care > about bleeding that'd be nice to get back into play for free - Carlton > and Mylan spring to mind. And unlike Compel the Spirit, there's no > 'since your last turn' clause. You can bring them back whenever later > in the game you happen to draw the Pressing Flesh. -that would be fine if they retained their abilities...but unless I read it wrong, they lose their abilities and become generic "zombies" with -1 bleed. I guess they could burn themselves and bleed with a force of will for 1. > > Decompose is terrible. > It's not great, but it has its uses, I think. "Can't use additional > strikes" is actually pretty useful in my playgroup, for example, as > there tends to be at least one deck in every game using those (or so > it seems). -Every time I saw it played, the vamps just burned the card during their untap phase. No, the set isn't horrible for everybody, but the clans I was hoping it would improve still have issues.

On Feb 8, 4:59 pm, yesferatu <yesfer...@gmail.com> wrote: > > The Samedi still have 1 vampire that has in clan disciplines at > superior, he's a 9 cap and he's in group 2. > One vampire with 3 superior is an 8 cap and doesn't even have > necromancy. > Molock is decent for the cost. > It would be nice if the Samedi had one 6 cap with 3 superiors. Heck, I'd settle for swapping nec or NEC for another in-clan. But that's because nec is the worst discipline in the game (tip of the hat to Raziel). =P Actually, though I'm sure there are some Samedi deck concepts that use nec, maybe for Shamblers, my concepts for them never use it and it's always a wasted discipline. > > > Pressing the flesh is terrible. > > > I disagree. > > -that would be fine if they retained their abilities...but unless I > read it wrong, they lose their abilities and become generic "zombies" > with -1 bleed. I guess they could burn themselves and bleed with a > force of will for 1. > Why wouldn't they retain their abilities? > > > Decompose is terrible. > > It's not great, but it has its uses, I think. "Can't use additional > > strikes" is actually pretty useful in my playgroup, for example, as > > there tends to be at least one deck in every game using those (or so > > it seems). > > -Every time I saw it played, the vamps just burned the card during > their untap phase. > Yeah, I'm with you on this one. Cards that go away so quickly without requiring an action to get rid of are not worth the action to get them. It will only hurt someone at 2 or less blood, and won't really hurt them enough considering the other nasty things you could do to them. Terrible. Olid Loa, though, I could see being somewhat useful. Unfortunately, it's played too late to really affect Raptors, and it'd be nicer if the other restrictions were anti-defense instead of anti-offense, but all in all, it seems reasonable to throw a couple of them in a bunch of decks. Stiff Contempt isn't too bad, considering Force of Personality requires a blood and superior for similar effect. Granted, it's not great, but not that bad. Groaning Corpses are obviously great. I still heart the trumpy Samedi combo of Hidden Lurker/Trap/Rigor Mortis/Withering. I at one point had a halfway decent deck that used that combo along with presence weenies (some of which had fortitude, which the Samedi also used) bleeding. I think I might try it again, as the Samedi *have* gotten a bit stronger since then, and Groaning Corpses might make it more viable.

"yesferatu" <yesf...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:e0162581-bf46-484c...@o28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com... >> > Pressing the flesh is terrible. It's actually "Pressing Flesh" >> I disagree. Aside from the whole "my shambling horde with fortitude >> rushes you" angle, there's several allies where you often don't care >> about bleeding that'd be nice to get back into play for free - Carlton >> and Mylan spring to mind. And unlike Compel the Spirit, there's no >> 'since your last turn' clause. You can bring them back whenever later >> in the game you happen to draw the Pressing Flesh. > > -that would be fine if they retained their abilities...but unless I > read it wrong, they lose their abilities and become generic "zombies" > with -1 bleed. I guess they could burn themselves and bleed with a > force of will for 1. Card text: Pressing Flesh Action Require Thanotosis +1 stealth action. (Inf Than) Choose an ally that was burned from play. Move that ally from the ash heap to your ready region with this card and life equal to its starting life. This ally is a zombie instead of what it used to be, gets -1 bleed, cannot gain life, and may play cards that require basic Fortitude as a vampire. (SUP THAN) As above but with an additional life. I assume, "this ally is a zombie instead of what it used to be", meant the type of ally, e.g. mortal, hunter, mage, animal, etc. I see no text which states that the ally's card text is ignored. Did LSJ indicate that was the case? >> > Decompose is terrible. >> It's not great, but it has its uses, I think. "Can't use additional >> strikes" is actually pretty useful in my playgroup, for example, as >> there tends to be at least one deck in every game using those (or so >> it seems). > > -Every time I saw it played, the vamps just burned the card during > their untap phase. Great! Thanatosis has the first action which burns two blood or life off of a minion at inferior. I think I could build a deck around that. Fred

On Feb 8, 10:59 pm, yesferatu <yesfer...@gmail.com> wrote: > Harlan Graves is perfect for Daughters: 4 for 4 I don't rate him as a Daughter (for a guy with superior Fortitude he's pretty cheap). Inferior presence and inferior melpominee on a 4 cap? He's also a poor fit for his group, given that Hillanvale and Scout's Obfuscate make Group 6 the obvious choice for a Shattering Crescendo deck, and Graves contributes less than anyone to that deck, and has a harder time getting his actions through. Kevin Walsh

On Feb 8, 5:59 pm, yesferatu <yesfer...@gmail.com> wrote: > -Since gargoyles can't take directed actions unless their master is in > play, the card is useless unless you have a Tremere/!Tremere. > Typically, the gargoyle decks I have seen are slow and severely > crippled by the slave mechanic. Blink. Blink. Gargoyles are, for the most part, slaves. There are a few that aren't, but if you are using Gargoyles you are, for the most part, dealing with the slave mechanic. Which is one of the main features of the clan. That they are slaves. When you are making a Gargoyle deck, you are making a deck to deal with the slave mechanic. Which, generally speaking, isn't that big of a deal. Worst case scenario, your Gargoyle deck has a few weenie Tremere/!Tremere and a handful of Deflections and a few Conditionings in there. And this set comes with Wider View, which helps this particular situation considerably, such that I can't imagine that the slave mechanic is going to be remotely problematic in the long run. > Adding another card which is limited by that mechanic doesn't really > help. That is like saying "adding anything to the Gargoyles doesn't really help". There aren't many Gargoyles that aren't slaves. It is difficult to make decks that use Gargoyles and don't deal with a slave mechanic. So if you are making a deck to use Gargoyles, you make a deck to take advantage of the slave mechanic. Such that it isn't really an issue. Looking at what the Gargoyles *do* get in this set, they get two good ! Tremere slaves (Fustik and Chaundice) which they didn't have before, both of which have VIS FOR. That is a deck right there (a few each of the two of them, a handful of weenie !Tre with dom, and some Wider Views). They get a totally solid, cheap, non unique Tremere slave. Also a deck right there. They get a really good bleed reduction card. A card that steals other folks's torporized minions (Hmm. How are gargoyles going to get folks into torpor?) and turns them into a new gargoyle. They get a few wacky destructo cards like Jar of Skin Eaters and the one where the little guy blows up. The get Wider View which is *great* for making slave gargoyle decks go. They get a path of making card cheaper. They get a free Freak Drive. They get a ton of cool stuff. I mean, yeah, if you don't like dealing with the slave mechanic, don't play with the Gargoyles. But this set gives them a lot of cool stuff to mess with. And a good mechanism for making the slave mechanic vastly easier to work with. -Peter

Frederick Scott <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > Card text: > Pressing Flesh > Action > Require Thanotosis > +1 stealth action. > (Inf Than) Choose an ally that was burned from play. Move that ally > from the ash heap to your ready region with this card and life equal > to its starting life. This ally is a zombie instead of what it used > to be, gets -1 bleed, cannot gain life, and may play cards that > require basic Fortitude as a vampire. > (SUP THAN) As above but with an additional life. > I assume, "this ally is a zombie instead of what it used to be", meant > the type of ally, e.g. mortal, hunter, mage, animal, etc. I see no > text which states that the ally's card text is ignored. Did LSJ indicate > that was the case? Good question. If it doesn't lose its "other stuff", then could it become a non-imbued "monster" with access to Virtues (but not Conviction)?

On Feb 8, 8:19 pm, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > Good question. > If it doesn't lose its "other stuff", then could it become a non-imbued > "monster" with access to Virtues (but not Conviction)? I think you need to be an Imbued to play Virtue cards. Or powers. I think if you get Pressing Fleshed back to life as an Imbued, you get to be an ally with some life, -1 bleed, and probably a special ability printed on you. But no use of powers or virtues or convictions. I think. -Peter

I'm having a hard time following some of this thread, since I haven't seen all the cards, and WW has not yet added them to the database. Is there a full spoiler list somewhere I haven't found? Yesferatu wrote: > It's the same reason Stone Dog looks awesome on paper, but doesn't > work in play. You might also have noticed that Stone Dog costs 3 pool and requires an action to get into play. > I can't think of one gargoyle or samedi that I thought HAD to be in my > next deck. I can't think of any vampire in the game that I thought HAD to be in my next deck. > I instead spend my time figuring out what I'd need to include to > overcome their obvious weaknesses. Well sure. That's a part of building any deck, and the bloodlines are largely built around the idea that they have considerable weaknesses (slave, infernal, scarce, limited crypt options) in exchange for added abilities. The gargoyles have always been among the weakest clans in the game, mostly because their thematic effects are limited to combat and blocking. They don't have much in the way of forward pressure available, except what they get from their slave drivers. When you start building a gargoyle deck, you are always starting with the need to patch their weaknesses. > > > Pressing the flesh is terrible. It looks plenty good to me. You should reevaluate it based on a correct interpretation of the text. > -that would be fine if they retained their abilities...but unless I > read it wrong, they lose their abilities and become generic "zombies" > with -1 bleed. I guess they could burn themselves and bleed with a > force of will for 1. As noted, it doesn't say that. It says they become zombies and get -1 bleed and fortitude. It doesn't say that they lose any of their abilities. > No, the set isn't horrible for everybody, but the clans I was hoping > it would improve still have issues. The set doesn't appear to be horrible for anybody. It certainly didn't elevate two of the weakest clans in the game to tier 1 status, but that's also probably not what was intended. Jesse

I'm just saying that you don't see a lot of Samedi or Gargoyle decks, at least I don't. I was looking forward to this set because I was hoping it would make those clans more viable. Saying that those clans have always been weak proves my point. Some clans with marginal weaknesses (-1 intercept on daughters/ cold iron on Kiasyd) got huge bonuses while already disadvantaged clans are still weak. "I can't think of any vampire in the game that I thought HAD to be in my next deck. " If you're not picking must have vampires like: Joaquina for Ravnos Caliban for Tzmisce Dame Hollerton for Kiasyd Tomaine for Brujah I would say you really should be. I can't think of a reason not to put a vampire with all of their in clans at superior into every deck you build. I haven't seen anyone else who isn't crazy about the set, maybe it's just me. I just can't see buying a box or more for the 4 cards I'd want (As the Crow/Voices of the Castle/Path/Under My Skin). Do you see an Off Kilter deck taking Nationals?

http://rake.extra.hu/index.html http://rake.extra.hu/index2.html http://rake.extra.hu/index3.html

Just to reiterate... No Obfuscate No Fortitude No Necromancy Bad Thanatosis Am I the only person who is bothered by that?

On 9 Lut, 18:14, yesferatu <yesfer...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm just saying that you don't see a lot of Samedi or Gargoyle decks, > at least I don't. > I was looking forward to this set because I was hoping it would make > those clans more viable. You are lucky that you don't see a lot of Gargoyle decks, those are very annoying. > Saying that those clans have always been weak proves my point. > Some clans with marginal weaknesses (-1 intercept on daughters/ cold > iron on Kiasyd) got huge bonuses while already disadvantaged clans are > still weak. Maybe Samedi, Gargoyles are not weak. > "I can't think of any vampire in the game that I thought HAD to be in > my next deck. " > > If you're not picking must have vampires like: > Joaquina for Ravnos > Caliban for Tzmisce > Dame Hollerton for Kiasyd > Tomaine for Brujah Last 5 Ravnos decks in TWDA have 3 Joaquinas in 2 decks. Last 5 Tzimisce decks in TWDA have 7 Calibans in 4 decks, you have the point HERE. Last 5 Brujah decks in TWDA have 4 Dame Hollerton in 3 decks. Last 5 Brujah decks in TWDA have 0 Tomaine. As you can see, these vampires are not must have as you want them to be, and does not show even in decks from the grouping they "should". And Dame is not really good Kiasyd, lacks of superior MYT hurts, thats why she is seen most often as single copy vampire. Caliban is played often as Tzimisce often use all in clan disciplines, Tomaine is not really that good compared to other choices (and have sucky primogen title in vote deck), and successful brujah use presence most often. Joaquina is often throw away unique vampire, as most ravnos decks do not use all three in-clans and her special is not earth-shacking. > I would say you really should be. > I can't think of a reason not to put a vampire with all of their in > clans at superior into every deck you build. You use one discipline with splash of second, or you want titled vamp ? You want decent special ? You play weenies or high-caps ? There are multiple reasons to not put such vampire into deck, you know. > I haven't seen anyone else who isn't crazy about the set, maybe it's > just me. > I just can't see buying a box or more for the 4 cards I'd want (As the > Crow/Voices of the Castle/Path/Under My Skin). Your choice. > Do you see an Off Kilter deck taking Nationals? Off Kilter + Temptation/Enticement FoS with Alonso M. that use coroners contracts/wider view to bring that 1/2 Samedis that play Off Kilter ? Why not ?

"yesferatu" <yesf...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1d08c65b-2dd5-4e93...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] MAN, I wish you would quote! Outside of going and investigating threading, no one who sees this message could have a *CLUE* what the fuck you are talking about. QUOTE CONTEXT ALREADY!!!

On Feb 9, 12:14 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > "yesferatu" <yesfer...@gmail.com> wrote in message [ quoted text not captured ] What's there to quote? There are no new Necromancy cards in the set...there's already a post about that. Three clans in this set use it, yet there are no new cards. There are no new Obfuscate cards. There are no new Fortitude cars. The Thanatosis cards that were added weren't terribly good. You're caught up.

On Feb 9, 7:55 pm, yesferatu <yesfer...@gmail.com> wrote: > There are no new Obfuscate cards. You are incorrect on this point. Obfuscate got another +1 stealth for free at basic card. It went into my Anarch deck, which only has obf. Oh, and there appears to be a free Strike: Dodge at basic as well, which I don't think it had before. > There are no new Fortitude cars. Again, this is incorrect. There's a new Skin of Night, which also protects you from Flash Grenade. > The Thanatosis cards that were added weren't terribly good. > Pressing Flesh is superpowerful. Free Shambling Hordes with Fortitude? On, and there's Under the Skin for multi-action stealth, which looks pretty handy for Reanimated Corpse decks. And Groaning Corpse is pretty damn solid. Kevin Walsh

[ quoted text not captured ] What life would Shambling Hordes start with? 3 + the one given to it by Pressing Flesh? And how would that tech work? I mean the Shambling Hordes have to be burnt first. I would want to be bringing in quite a few of these guys. Further, Shambling Hordes requires you to remove yet another ally in your ash heap from the game. So you first have to burn the Hordes, discard another Hordes, and play Pressing Flesh to have it work just once, correct? That seems fairly hard to get more than one out in a short time. Perhaps I am missing some of the tech as I have never played with Shambling Hordes, but I have played with Reanimated Corpses. Card Text: Shambling Hordes [Ally] Ally [Necromancy] Necromancy [3 Blood] Zombie with 3 life. 0 strength, 0 bleed. [nec] When Shambling Hordes enters play, remove an ally or vampire in your ash heap from the game or burn the Hordes. The Hordes gets +1 strength for each life counter it has. It can never gain life; any life it gains goes to the blood bank instead. The Hordes can enter combat with any minion as a (D) action. [NEC] As above, with 4 life. Card text: Pressing Flesh Action Require Thanotosis +1 stealth action. (Inf Than) Choose an ally that was burned from play. Move that ally from the ash heap to your ready region with this card and life equal to its starting life. This ally is a zombie instead of what it used to be, gets -1 bleed, cannot gain life, and may play cards that require basic Fortitude as a vampire. (SUP THAN) As above but with an additional life. Card Text: Reanimated Corpse [Ally] Ally [Thanatosis] Thanatosis [X Blood] Zombie with 2 life. 2 strength, 2 bleed. [thn] Put X pathos counters on this corpse when it enters play. During your untap phase, burn 1 pathos counter. Remove the corpse from the game if it has no pathos counters. The corpse can play combat cards that require basic Fortitude [for] as a vampire. [THN] As above, but put 2 additional pathos counters on the corpse.

[ quoted text not captured ] Right...I was just looking that up. It doesn't work well with either ally. It's the same reason Reanimated Corpses and Shambling Hordes don't work well with Compel the Spirit. Their card text makes the tech too complicated to rely on. Obfuscate got another +1 stealth for > > free at basic card. It went into my Anarch deck, which only has obf. > > Oh, and there appears to be a free Strike: Dodge at basic as well, > > which I don't think it had before. -How is yet another obfuscate card with +1 stealth at basic a "new" card? -Isn't 1 stealth for free at basic the bulk of what Obfuscate does? You only already have 12 options from which to choose. -It's nice Obeah stealth, but I can't see how often the Obfuscate will get used by the 1 Salubri with Obfuscate. -The Strike: Dodge at basic is new. Fortitude: > > Again, this is incorrect. There's a new Skin of Night, which also > > protects you from Flash Grenade. -So now you only have 4 cards that do pretty much the same thing. -Again, it's good for Obeah, but there is no reason for any clan without it to use that card. -Was I asleep when the plague of Flash Grenades swept over the land?

On Feb 9, 4:38 pm, yesferatu wrote: > -Was I asleep when the plague of Flash Grenades swept over the land? Perhaps. How deep is your roster of Imbued players? Concealed Flash Grenades were the Imbued tech to beat in 2009. A card that ends combat and taps your opponent for an extra turn is mighty strong for Imbued.

"yesferatu" <yesf...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:0f0f2662-f730-44bb...@g28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com... > On Feb 9, 12:14 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > > "yesferatu" <yesfer...@gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:1d08c65b-2dd5-4e93...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com... > > > Just to reiterate... > > > No Obfuscate > > > No Fortitude > > > No Necromancy > > > Bad Thanatosis > > > > > Am I the only person who is bothered by that? > > > > MAN, I wish you would quote! > > > > Outside of going and investigating threading, no one who sees this message > > could have a *CLUE* what the fuck you are talking about. QUOTE CONTEXT > > ALREADY!!! > > What's there to quote? The context of what you're talking about. OK, let's review: you posted a message. And all that message says is, "No Obfuscate. No Fortitude. No Fortitude. No Necromancy. Bad Thanatois. Am I the only person is bothered by that?" ...like WHERE, man?!? In HttB? In the Httb library cards? In the HttB vampires? In all of Jyhad? In your underwear? WHERE? > There are no new Necromancy cards in the set...there's already a post > about that. Well, you didn't quote that post so people reading your post won't necessarily be aware of that point. You can't assume people who read your post have read every other post in a thread. Fred

[ quoted text not captured ] It will be totally worth it for Shamblers. If you can prevent damage to the Shamblers their hand damage will stay at 4. This is huge!!! With Compel and Shamblers you saved 2 blood, but always got the Shambler back at inf level so it was only a 3 life 3 str Shambler. It could act immediately, but not really worth including. Compel and Pressing Flesh doesn't work with Reanimated Corpse because you don't get any Pathos counters and instantly die. If you still don't like Pressing Flesh, that's fine. I'll trade for all of yours the next time I am in Madison. I wish it wasn't rare because I plan to play a bunch in a Samedi Shambler deck. Later, ~Rehlow

[ quoted text not captured ] Except they enters play with 0 life, by card text (cannot gain life). There is no other way than old recruit action for shamblers.

[ quoted text not captured ] Except you're wrong. It works exactly like Compel the Spirit.

On Feb 9, 6:18 pm, Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com> wrote: > Except they enters play with 0 life, by card text (cannot gain life). > There is no other way than old recruit action for shamblers. Compel the Spirit has always worked for Shambling Hordes, as does Pressing Flesh. http://preview.tinyurl.com/yhy43zd It's Heaven's Gate that can't be used with Hordes, but notice the textual difference in how that works compared to Compel and Pressing. John Eno

[ quoted text not captured ] I was wrong then, fine. So those new Samedi may prove to be decent alternative to usual shambling horde giovanni decks. Nice. That improve my argument about 'quietus is worst discipline'.

[ quoted text not captured ] Can someone point out a good use in a tournament deck for Pressing Flesh? I am not saying it is bad, but what I am saying is I see many other cards that could go in that slot. What I am also trying to imagine is the hot tech as it does seem like a fun card to use.

On Feb 9, 7:48 pm, RoddPrime <roddpr...@gmail.com> wrote: > Can someone point out a good use in a tournament deck for Pressing > Flesh? I am not saying it is bad, but what I am saying is I see many > other cards that could go in that slot. What I am also trying to > imagine is the hot tech as it does seem like a fun card to use. You are already playing Shambling Hordes ('cause Shambling Hordes decks are good in tournaments). Sideline in the new 5 cap Samedi with NEC. Now you can recycle some Hordes. And use a couple Veils for stealth... -Peter

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:b5162ddd-1f34-40ad...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Not to be a wet blanket but I usually find Hordes in graveyards to be useful for removing from the game when new Hordes come in. I suppose I could always Liquidate more than I do now. It sounds pretty wild-n-dicey, though. And if you're going to do this, it seems to me the odd Soak, Armor of Vitality, or whatnot would be called for to deal with damage. Fred

yesferatu wrote: > -How is yet another obfuscate card with +1 stealth at basic a "new" > card? Isn't 1 stealth for free at basic the bulk of what Obfuscate does? [ quoted text not captured ]

yesferatu wrote: > -How is yet another obfuscate card with +1 stealth at basic a "new" > card? Isn't 1 stealth for free at basic the bulk of what Obfuscate does? > You only already have 12 options from which to choose. Cloak the Gathering Domain of Evernight Faceless Night Into Thin Air (with a drawback) Lost in Crowds Spying Mission Swallowed by the Night And now Gift of Sleep. So I count eight -- and if I previously had a deck with all seven in there, fr.ex. four of each, I can now diversify even further, which helps. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html

[ quoted text not captured ] > imagine is the hot tech as it does seem like a fun card to use.- Dölj citerad text - > > - Visa citerad text - Perhaps a little far fetched but malk anti with Josette and escaped mental patient is something im tinkering with at home. The crypt selection for !malk in group 5-6 is to date somewhat limited though. Carlton van Wyk with fortitude is also nice.

On 9 fév, 17:47, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: > Well sure. That's a part of building any deck, and the bloodlines are > largely built around the idea that they have considerable weaknesses > (slave, infernal, scarce, limited crypt options) in exchange for added > abilities. The gargoyles have always been among the weakest clans in > the game, mostly because their thematic effects are limited to combat > and blocking. but, it's the same in WOD. The gargoyles are kind of surnatural bodyguards and sentinels, it's a bit logical they are built to survive combat and defend thei trem/!trem masters. I think the way the gargoyles are represented in the game is quite accurate, and i would be upset if the next set gives us plenty of camarilla prince gargoyles. If i want to do cam politics with gargoyles, i have to make some effort. Why ? because, as you said, the clan itself is designed for combat and blocking. I can't see why it should be bad. > They don't have much in the way of forward pressure > available, except what they get from their slave drivers. When you > start building a gargoyle deck, you are always starting with the need > to patch their weaknesses. But why do you start with such an idea in your mind ? I always thought that the Slave trait is not a "weakness", but an advantage. I built slave gargoyle deck in the past, and i fully exploited this fact. Especially with the end of the old NRA rule, you can hunt / get blocked / slave combat / hunt again, or diablerie / get blocked / slave combat / attempt the same diablerie again. It's a huge advantage to be able to trump blockers with a minion able not only of resisting tough combat, but actually capable of disabling the blocker permanently. Instead of starting with the need to patch their weakness, you should start with the idea to maximize this advantage during the whole game. > The set doesn't appear to be horrible for anybody. It certainly didn't > elevate two of the weakest clans in the game to tier 1 status, but > that's also probably not what was intended. that's also what tend to i think, but i see that some people understimate puny cards like Off Kilter, which may (or may not ^^) become the new Haqim's law : leadership.

On Feb 9, 8:20 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > Not to be a wet blanket but I usually find Hordes in graveyards to be > useful for removing from the game when new Hordes come in. Oh, sure. But by mid game, you generally have more Hordes in the graveyard than you need. Being able to play a few for virtually free seems like a good plan. Especially if you mix in some Fortitude (which the Giovanni have a reasonable amount of these days). -Peter

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:a7673136-4453-4a9f...@a1g2000vbl.googlegroups.com... On Feb 9, 8:20 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > > Not to be a wet blanket but I usually find Hordes in graveyards to be > > useful for removing from the game when new Hordes come in. > > Oh, sure. But by mid game, you generally have more Hordes in the > graveyard than you need. Really? Why would that be? If you substituted more Hordes into your deck for each Pressing Flesh you are now proposing to play, wouldn't that result in consuming the Horde in your graveyard just the same? > Being able to play a few for virtually free > seems like a good plan. Well, that's probably the only upside: playing Pressing Flesh is cheaper than 3 Blood for a new Shambling Hordes (or less, given Charismas, Paths, etc.). The downside is that if you draw Pressing Flesh before drawing Hordes or when the graveyard is empty for whatever reason. If you draw Hordes in that situation, at least you can discard it and there will be one in the graveyard for the next draw. Not so Pressing Flesh. > Especially if you mix in some Fortitude (which > the Giovanni have a reasonable amount of these days). Right. That's your other upside. Fred

On 10 Lut, 16:15, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > "Peter D Bakija" <p...@lightlink.com> wrote in messagenews:a7673136-4453-4a9f...@a1g2000vbl.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Another upside is that those Hordes will strike for 5.

On Feb 10, 10:15 am, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > Really? Why would that be? I dunno--whenever I play a Shambling Hordes deck, I usually have, like, 18 in the deck (so as to draw them early and often) and if I play even 6 Hordes in a given game, I'm on fire. And I have a lot of discard tech (Dreams, Specialization which works great in this sort of deck) to get the extras out of my hands and into my ashheap. > If you substituted more Hordes into your deck > for each Pressing Flesh you are now proposing to play, wouldn't that result > in consuming the Horde in your graveyard just the same? I'm not talking, like, 50 Pressing Flesh or anything. Just, say, use the new 5 cap Samedi with NEC, thn, for, obf to play Shambling Hordes the regular way. And then having 2 or 3 Pressing Flesh in the deck to get a recycled free Horde that can play fortitude does not seem remotely out of the realm of something that could go in a competitive deck. -Peter

Reyda wrote: > but, it's the same in WOD. The gargoyles are kind of surnatural > bodyguards and sentinels, it's a bit logical they are built to survive > combat and defend thei trem/!trem masters. > I think the way the gargoyles are represented in the game is quite > accurate, and i would be upset if the next set gives us plenty of > camarilla prince gargoyles. If i want to do cam politics with > gargoyles, i have to make some effort. Why ? because, as you said, the > clan itself is designed for combat and blocking. I can't see why it > should be bad. You began with the word "but", yet I can't see how this is a contradiction of anything I've written. I agree that the Gargoyles are represented well in VTES, but that doesn't make them any easier to win with. If you don't understand why a clan designed to block and fight has a hard time winning, then I'd suggest you don't understand VTES very well. > > They don't have much in the way of forward pressure > > available, except what they get from their slave drivers. When you > > start building a gargoyle deck, you are always starting with the need > > to patch their weaknesses. > But why do you start with such an idea in your mind ? Because I don't want to lose without doing anything? Or maybe I was replying to the post I quoted? >I always thought > that the Slave trait is not a "weakness", but an advantage. I built > slave gargoyle deck in the past, and i fully exploited this fact. > Especially with the end of the old NRA rule, you can hunt / get > blocked / slave combat / hunt again, or diablerie / get blocked / > slave combat / attempt the same diablerie again. It's a huge advantage > to be able to trump blockers with a minion able not only of resisting > tough combat, but actually capable of disabling the blocker > permanently. Beleive me; I understand the slave mechanic. I wrote a few edititions of the Gargoyle newsletter back when LoB came out, and I played a variety of Gargoyle decks in both casual games and tournaments. While slavery has some advantages, I'd say that it still comes out negative in the balance. The Tremere and Gargoyles share no clan disciplines, and most of the tha outferiors on vis cards are terrible. You pretty much can't accomplish anything without both a Tremere and a Gargoyle in the ready region, so your early game is slowed to a crawl. Later on, if someone manages to knock out your slave drivers, you might be screwed. > Instead of starting with the need to patch their weakness, you should > start with the idea to maximize this advantage during the whole game. It doesn't really matter which of these you start with, so long as you remember to address them both. > > The set doesn't appear to be horrible for anybody. It certainly didn't > > elevate two of the weakest clans in the game to tier 1 status, but > > that's also probably not what was intended. > > that's also what tend to i think, but i see that some people > understimate puny cards like Off Kilter, which may (or may not ^^) > become the new Haqim's law : leadership. The internet exists so that overreacing lunatics can make their thoughts known to the world every time they have a nervous tic. I'm sure every card in HttB probably looks broken to someone, while someone else sees a great new pattern for his living room. Luckily, there is a way to settle these arguements, which is playing VTES. Jesse

On Feb 10, 1:15 pm, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: > The internet exists so that overreacing lunatics can make their > thoughts known to the world every time they have a nervous tic. I'm > sure every card in HttB probably looks broken to someone, while > someone else sees a great new pattern for his living room. And see card art, beauty, and beholding. > Luckily, > there is a way to settle these arguements, which is playing VTES. Correct. (Unfortunately, this doesn't apply to the art appreciation issue.)

On Feb 10, 3:15 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > Well, that's probably the only upside: playing Pressing Flesh is cheaper > than 3 Blood for a new Shambling Hordes (or less, given Charismas, Paths, > etc.). The downside is that if you draw Pressing Flesh before drawing > Hordes or when the graveyard is empty for whatever reason. If you draw > Hordes in that situation, at least you can discard it and there will be > one in the graveyard for the next draw. Not so Pressing Flesh. > Well, Samedi don't have a Path, so a card like Pressing Flesh, which gives them the ability to play Shambling Hordes for free with 4 life, instead of for 3 blood with 3 life, is pretty handy. I don't know that I'd put it in a Giovanni deck, but it's a hot card for Samedi. Kevin Walsh

LSJ wrote: > cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: >> The internet exists so that overreacing lunatics can make their >> thoughts known to the world every time they have a nervous tic. I'm >> sure every card in HttB probably looks broken to someone, while >> someone else sees a great new pattern for his living room. > >> Luckily, >> there is a way to settle these arguements, which is playing VTES. > > Correct. > > (Unfortunately, this doesn't apply to the art appreciation issue.) Unfortunately, it COULD apply, since people are complaining about some of the art to the point that they won't play with those cards. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 10 fév, 19:15, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: > Reyda wrote: > > but, it's the same in WOD. The gargoyles are kind of surnatural > > bodyguards and sentinels, it's a bit logical they are built to survive > > combat and defend thei trem/!trem masters. > > I think the way the gargoyles are represented in the game is quite > > accurate, and i would be upset if the next set gives us plenty of > > camarilla prince gargoyles. If i want to do cam politics with > > gargoyles, i have to make some effort. Why ? because, as you said, the > > clan itself is designed for combat and blocking. I can't see why it > > should be bad. > > You began with the word "but", yet I can't see how this is a > contradiction of anything I've written. you talk about flaw, weakness, i talk about advantage. hence the contradiction. do i have to add that english is *not* my first language ? > I agree that the Gargoyles are > represented well in VTES, but that doesn't make them any easier to win > with. If you don't understand why a clan designed to block and fight > has a hard time winning, then I'd suggest you don't understand VTES > very well. If you plan to play slaves alone, then you don't understand VTES much more and don't look clever either... > > > They don't have much in the way of forward pressure > > > available, except what they get from their slave drivers. When you > > > start building a gargoyle deck, you are always starting with the need > > > to patch their weaknesses. > > But why do you start with such an idea in your mind ? > > Because I don't want to lose without doing anything? Come on, mr i-know-vtes : you know that this clan is specialised in blocking and replacing another minion in combat. So why are you surprised that the clan has poor tools when it comes to going forward ? You want the clan to have everything to succeed in all departments ? Then maybe you want too much... > Beleive me; I understand the slave mechanic. good for you ! but if you can't find the beauty that comes out of a perfectly functionning trem/gargoyle deck, you probably miss something. > I wrote a few edititions > of the Gargoyle newsletter back when LoB came out, and I played a > variety of Gargoyle decks in both casual games and tournaments. While > slavery has some advantages, I'd say that it still comes out negative > in the balance. The Tremere and Gargoyles share no clan disciplines, > and most of the tha outferiors on vis cards are terrible. fortitude or potence are available in many groupings. Many visc / thau cards are actuallu better that what you are pointing. > You pretty > much can't accomplish anything without both a Tremere and a Gargoyle > in the ready region, Even if you assume i don't really know much of V:tes, i think you are just stating obvious stuff. Ran out of arguments ? > so your early game is slowed to a crawl. Later > on, if someone manages to knock out your slave drivers, you might be > screwed. oh, come on ? :p You mean, like i am in trouble in a vote deck if someone destroys my titled vamps ? ok, nice one, but where are the arguments, apart from "reyda know nothing of vtes and i, jesse, wrote newsletters" ? :)

On Feb 10, 2:10 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > LSJ wrote: > > cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The internet exists so that overreacing lunatics can make their > >> thoughts known to the world every time they have a nervous tic. I'm > >> sure every card in HttB probably looks broken to someone, while > >> someone else sees a great new pattern for his living room. > > >> Luckily, > >> there is a way to settle these arguements, which is playing VTES. > > > Correct. > > > (Unfortunately, this doesn't apply to the art appreciation issue.) > > Unfortunately, it COULD apply, since people are complaining about > some of the art to the point that they won't play with those cards. ? Well, people could certainly do so. But, obviously, that will do nothing to settle anything as it relates to other beholders. That is, as stated, the "playing VTES" arena won't settle the art appreciation issue.

Reyda wrote: > you talk about flaw, weakness, i talk about advantage. > hence the contradiction. I think you're ignoring a lot of what I'm writing, as well as the context. Yesferatu was throwing a fit about how he didn't like the new gargoyle stuff and how he had to deal with major weaknesses to build a Gargoyle deck. I was pointing out that the Gargoyles' weaknesses are a thematic component of their development in VTES. Indeed, every clan or strategy has weaknesses, as well as strengths. Successful deck building requires that you keep both in mind. > do i have to add that english is *not* my first language ? Not really. You're doing fine. > If you plan to play slaves alone, then you don't understand VTES much > more and don't look clever either... Ummm. I don't plan on playing slaves alone, but there are still problems with Tremere + Gargoyle decks. That's why I enumerated those problems in the text that followed, which you quoted. > Come on, mr i-know-vtes : you know that this clan is specialised in > blocking and replacing another minion in combat. So why are you > surprised that the clan has poor tools when it comes to going > forward ? You want the clan to have everything to succeed in all > departments ? Then maybe you want too much... Again, I think you're just not really reading what I've written. I'm not surprised that Gargoyles have trouble going forward. I don't want them to succeed in all departments. Where did I write any of that? > > Beleive me; I understand the slave mechanic. > > good for you ! but if you can't find the beauty that comes out of a > perfectly functionning trem/gargoyle deck, you probably miss > something. I've tried pretty hard to build a perfectly functioning Gargoyle deck, and it's very hard to do. To repeat myself, I understand that there are benefits to the slave mechanic. A good player using a well built deck can take advantage of those benefits in a number of interesting ways, but on the overall balance, the slave trait is still a disadvantage, for the reasons I cited. > fortitude or potence are available in many groupings. Many visc / thau > cards are actuallu better that what you are pointing. The Tremere who have those disciplines are generally rather expensive and only have them at inferior until you get to the fatties. The only good tha outferior I can recall (ignoring any new cards) is the maneuver on Crawling Chamber. Do you have any other specific examples, or just more vague generalities? > > You pretty > > much can't accomplish anything without both a Tremere and a Gargoyle > > in the ready region, > > Even if you assume i don't really know much of V:tes, i think you are > just stating obvious stuff. Ran out of arguments ? I guess that's obvious stuff, but you seem not to understand that it is a disadvantage, which it is. > > so your early game is slowed to a crawl. Later > > on, if someone manages to knock out your slave drivers, you might be > > screwed. > > oh, come on ? :p You mean, like i am in trouble in a vote deck if > someone destroys my titled vamps ? No, I don't mean like that. When some of your titled minions get dunked in a vote deck, it doesn't necessarily take away your other minions ability to function. > ok, nice one, but where are the arguments, apart from "reydaknow > nothing of vtes and i, jesse, wrote newsletters" ? :) They were in the previous post. You should try reading it.

My overall opinions are thus(I've only seen 1 box, so I don't think I've seen all the vamps, and I definitely haven't seen all the rares): I'm overall not impressed with the vampires. There are some nice gems. The new Blood brothers are a little lame. Same goes for the group 5-6 samedi(group 4 morlock is pretty nice) The trujah: Well, I'm glad they're finally printing trujah that can play quicksilver contemplation fully out of the box... I think of all the clans, they have the best vamps for 5-6 Harbingers: Some cool abilities, but I doubt I'll be deserting group 4 any time soon.(By the way, that is Hugh's pic on Byzar, right?) Kyasid: Once again, an awesome group 4(Isanwayen, vanilla 6 cap all sups), and the Arcadian isn't half bad. group 6... meh, crappy discipline spreads, and a 5 pool barrens?? !Salubri:Uriel is a nice addition to group 3-4. I would consider Qawiyya(the red list with +2 strength)... except she's a 9 cap without all superiors(yeah, POT is nice... except no other !salubri have it) maybe a star vamp deck for her. Once again, group 6 seems to suffer from lack of coherent superiors, though a vanilla 6 cap isn't bad. Salubri:Uhh.. I've only seen 4 of them so far. The guy with +1 stealth hunting is sorta lame. maybe he goes in an Akunanse deck with his FOR abo... inferior obeah says you're prolly not doing real salubri things with him. Matthew, 7 cap... Matthias 7 cap. Hrm, +1 intercept, vs reducing the cost of normal masters. Matthias still wins unless you make a big expensive location deck(and I'd like to stick to group 4 for Guiallme Giovanni if I'm gonna do that). Nahum Enosh- Special isn't nearly as nice as Saulot, and with the new Obeah stealth, Obfuscate isn't as attractive. Inferior fort, no thaum... meh. Serenna the white is actually pretty cool. All superiors, and a really nice special(not quite as flexible as Saulot, but she's a 8 cap) I could see making a deck with her. Nagaraja: They're still completely a support clan. They're still pretty decent in and of themselves(although Jozz seems kinda lame, since he has to go in a build your own vampire/disciplineless combat deck to be useful) Ahrimanes: The 9 cap is cool... but the rest kinda suck.4 cap with a drawback and not even all in clan, No common discplines among the smaller guys.... kinda like the guruhi Daughters: Especially with the buffs to melpominee votes, I see no reason to budge from group 2 Baali:Holy crap... these guys are the only clan I think the vampires are all awesome. 3 vote oriented vamps, all with OBF PRE. The unnamed is scary in so many ways... awesome ways. Heck the generic Horde are pretty darn good too. The minion cards impressed me far more. Unlike the Laibon set, this set really seems aimed at shoring up the weaknesses in the bloodlines. All of the fighty bloodlines except Ahrimanes now have an easily accesable answer to S:CE. Ahrimanes got their comparatively lackluster spiritus intercept and stealth boosted. Gargoyles are now scary and blocky with Visceratica... at last. Obeah got another +1s and a seduction. And each has another use in case you didn't need it to get actions through. I'm not sure about lord of serenity yet. I'll try it out and see if I can defend it, but even the outferior recuing two vamps for 3 blood aint bad. Trujah got actual stealth, pre-range damage, and the best Revelations type effect in the game Baali(or infernals in general) got alot more stuff to block, fight and vote. I'm still not sure if the two new non-disciplines will pan out. They seem a little dodgy, like Aye and Orun, but the effects are big enough that it might be worth it. Govern down as a master action isn't half bad. Blood borthers: Set range to close with a press?? holy moly. Hive mind to govern and multi act is also hot, though I'm still a fan of unwholesome bond. Oh yeah... and a single card to give everyone a rush for the turn. I still don't know if rush will be competative... but damn! !Salubri: in addition to the obvious death seeker, more bleed reduction, and 2 more S:CE's(blissful agony is still cool, but a combo majesty and catetonic fear, and a combo Pentex+mirror image are pretty awesome) So yah. Vampire's were meh with a few gems... library cards were Awesome.

On 11 fév, 15:11, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: > Reyda wrote: > > Come on, mr i-know-vtes : you know that this clan is specialised in > > blocking and replacing another minion in combat. So why are you > > surprised that the clan has poor tools when it comes to going > > forward ? You want the clan to have everything to succeed in all > > departments ? Then maybe you want too much... > > Again, I think you're just not really reading what I've written. I'm > not surprised that Gargoyles have trouble going forward. I don't want > them to succeed in all departments. Where did I write any of that? then who wrote this below ?? O_ô On 9 fév, 17:47, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: > The gargoyles have always been among the weakest clans in > the game, mostly because their thematic effects are limited to combat > and blocking. To what i was replying : they can't be strong in all departments. If you want the gargoyles to bleed, vote and do lots of stuff outside combat, then you're asking too much. > I've tried pretty hard to build a perfectly functioning Gargoyle deck, > and it's very hard to do. To repeat myself, I understand that there > are benefits to the slave mechanic. A good player using a well built > deck can take advantage of those benefits in a number of interesting > ways, but on the overall balance, the slave trait is still a > disadvantage, for the reasons I cited. to which i would gave you the same reply : it's a disadvantage because you are seeing it as a disadvantage. For another player who play differently, it is a good thing ! > > fortitude or potence are available in many groupings. Many visc / thau > > cards are actuallu better that what you are pointing. > > The Tremere who have those disciplines are generally rather expensive > and only have them at inferior until you get to the fatties. The only > good tha outferior I can recall (ignoring any new cards) is the > maneuver on Crawling Chamber. Do you have any other specific examples, > or just more vague generalities? no, i can make a simple list : rockheart gives a dodge, scry the heartstone gives intercept at tha (which was the first card giving surprise 'cept to non auspex tremere like Masika St john ), stonequills inflicts 2R damage, which is quite good since not all vampires have blood to steal. Torporizing a low on blood vamp first round from the comfort of long range is always interesting. The tremere who share fortitude or potence with the gargoyles range from 4 cap to 10 cap : don't tell me that only fatties are usable. Skin of steel is ok at inferior, as is stunt cycle... > > > You pretty > > > much can't accomplish anything without both a Tremere and a Gargoyle > > > in the ready region, > > > Even if you assume i don't really know much of V:tes, i think you are > > just stating obvious stuff. Ran out of arguments ? > > I guess that's obvious stuff, but you seem not to understand that it > is a disadvantage, which it is. in many decks, when the main star is in torpor, the deck is in trouble. Please don't deny it :) Is there a real difference with the gargoyles and their masters ? Except the D action thingy, there is none. > > > so your early game is slowed to a crawl. Later > > > on, if someone manages to knock out your slave drivers, you might be > > > screwed. Like with any deck ! Except in this case, we have salve gargoyles which are designed to block D actions and to take the place of their masters in combat : Your worst case scenario (master in torpor) is just infinitely less likely to happen if you have a correct setup. :) > > oh, come on ? :p You mean, like i am in trouble in a vote deck if > > someone destroys my titled vamps ? > > No, I don't mean like that. When some of your titled minions get > dunked in a vote deck, it doesn't necessarily take away your other > minions ability to function. But having my princes in torpor makes me difficult to play Parity shift. Having my big independants in torpor prevents me from playing Reckless agitation. You know what i mean :) My other minions will certainly try to rescue their elders -exactly like a gargoyle would do... or, maybe not do, since The Chantry rescues my vamp automatically :) > > ok, nice one, but where are the arguments, apart from "reydaknow > > nothing of vtes and i, jesse, wrote newsletters" ? :) > > They were in the previous post. You should try reading it. I read them, and i didn't see anything worth changing my mind. Don't be fooled by my tone, i am here to talk and learn things. When you debate with someone about games, there is sometime this wonderful moment where the other person sheds a new light on something you thought you know : i am here because secretly i somehow like this moment. Sadly it did not happen there. But i am not despairing :)

On Feb 11, 11:49 am, "Reyda !" <rey...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 11 fév, 15:11, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Reyda wrote: > > > Come on, mr i-know-vtes : you know that this clan is specialised in > > > blocking and replacing another minion in combat. So why are you > > > surprised that the clan has poor tools when it comes to going > > > forward ? You want the clan to have everything to succeed in all > > > departments ? Then maybe you want too much... > > > Again, I think you're just not really reading what I've written. I'm > > not surprised that Gargoyles have trouble going forward. I don't want > > them to succeed in all departments. Where did I write any of that? > > then who wrote this below ?? O_ô > > On 9 fév, 17:47, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > The gargoyles have always been among the weakest clans in > > the game, mostly because their thematic effects are limited to combat > > and blocking. > > To what i was replying : they can't be strong in all departments. If > you want the gargoyles to bleed, vote and do lots of stuff outside > combat, then you're asking too much. Like he said, try reading what he wrote. "They're not good at X" =/= "They should be good at X, and they're not." - D.J.

[ quoted text not captured ] mmm... when someone telss you "X is weak, and has flaws", is it because he feels happy with it ? By reading him, i can't really figure he's telling "Gargoyles are the weakest clan, beside this they are slaves and that's cool"

Reyda asks: > then who wrote this below ?? O_ô > > On 9 fév, 17:47, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > The gargoyles have always been among the weakest clans in > > the game, mostly because their thematic effects are limited to combat > > and blocking. > > To what i was replying : they can't be strong in all departments. If > you want the gargoyles to bleed, vote and do lots of stuff outside > combat, then you're asking too much. Where in that quote do I suggest that the Gargoyles should be good at bleeding or voting? > to which i would gave you the same reply : it's a disadvantage because > you are seeing it as a disadvantage. For another player who play > differently, it is a good thing ! No, dude, it's a disadvantage because it really is a disadvantage. Like I keep saying, there certainly are positive aspects as well, but overall the slave mechanic makes it harder to build a competetively viable Gargoyle deck. If that isn't the case, why do we so seldom see Tremere + Gargoyle decks (other than Tupdogs) at tournament finals? > no, i can make a simple list : > rockheart gives a dodge, scry the heartstone gives intercept at tha > (which was the first card giving surprise 'cept to non auspex tremere > like Masika St john ), stonequills inflicts 2R damage, which is quite > good since not all vampires have blood to steal. Torporizing a low on > blood vamp first round from the comfort of long range is always > interesting. Scry the Hearthstone is a weak card because it only provides intercept on directed actions. Stone Quills is also subpar due to the blood cost. I can see dodging with Rockheart though, since it is otherwise a reasonably decent card. > The tremere who share fortitude or potence with the gargoyles range > from 4 cap to 10 cap : don't tell me that only fatties are usable. > Skin of steel is ok at inferior, as is stunt cycle... Yes, the smallest Tremere with potence is a 4 cap, and then all the others in his group are bigger. So if you want to use potence with your Tremere, you need to bring out a more expensive guy than you would if you were just using dominate and the odd outferior. > in many decks, when the main star is in torpor, the deck is in > trouble. Please don't deny it :) I'm not denying that. > Is there a real difference with the gargoyles and their masters ? > Except the D action thingy, there is none. Uhhh....they have totally different disciplines and abilities. > But having my princes in torpor makes me difficult to play Parity > shift. Having my big independants in torpor prevents me from playing > Reckless agitation. You know what i mean :) > My other minions will certainly try to rescue their elders -exactly > like a gargoyle would do... or, maybe not do, since The Chantry > rescues my vamp automatically :) If I am building a Prince deck, I will probably make it so that all or most of my guys are princes, or include Praxis Seizures or Justicar votes. If one or two goes down, I will still be able to play my game with the other guys. The nature of the slave mechanic forces you to include two very different types of vampires, one of which plays one set of cards, while the other plays another set of cards. This is a disadvantage. You might still like the Gargoyles. I do. But they have a disadvantage. > I read them, and i didn't see anything worth changing my mind. > Don't be fooled by my tone, i am here to talk and learn things. > When you debate with someone about games, there is sometime this > wonderful moment where the other person sheds a new light on something > you thought you know : i am here because secretly i somehow like this > moment. Sadly it did not happen there. But i am not despairing :) I'm not really trying to change your mind. I mostly just keep replying because you don't seem to understand what I'm saying, and think I'm saying something else. Jesse

Reyda again: > mmm... when someone telss you "X is weak, and has flaws", is it > because he feels happy with it ? I'm reasonably happy with the way Gargoyles are, though I wish I could win more games with them. I like them thematically, and I think they are well represented in VTES. I'm looking forward to trying out some of their new tech when I get more HttB. Yesferatu was complaining that they have a disadvantage, so I was addressing that. Then you came along claiming that they don't have a disadvantage, so I'm addressing that. > By reading him, i can't really figure > he's telling "Gargoyles are the weakest clan, beside this they are > slaves and that's cool" No. I really actually mean the things that I've already written. Stop trying to extrapolate, and just go with the explicit assertions. Jesse

On 11 fév, 20:56, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote: > Reyda again: > > > mmm... when someone telss you "X is weak, and has flaws", is it > > because he feels happy with it ? > > I'm reasonably happy with the way Gargoyles are, though I wish I could > win more games with them. I like them thematically, and I think they > are well represented in VTES. I'm looking forward to trying out some > of their new tech when I get more HttB. then, that's cool :)

Frederick Scott wrote: > "Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:a7673136-4453-4a9f...@a1g2000vbl.googlegroups.com... > On Feb 9, 8:20 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: >> > Not to be a wet blanket but I usually find Hordes in graveyards to be >> > useful for removing from the game when new Hordes come in. >> >> Oh, sure. But by mid game, you generally have more Hordes in the >> graveyard than you need. > > Really? Why would that be? If you substituted more Hordes into your deck > for each Pressing Flesh you are now proposing to play, wouldn't that result > in consuming the Horde in your graveyard just the same? > I think the major downside is, no one will have any hordes in their graveyard at all. unless they're playing the wrong game. In the ash heap, maybe... -- salem

"Salem" <kell...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4b77d7bc$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au... [ quoted text not captured ] Mercy for CRS sufferers, please!!!

On Feb 11, 4:34 pm, malcolmsprye <malcolmsp...@gmail.com> wrote: > Ahrimanes: The 9 cap is cool... but the rest kinda suck.4 cap with a > drawback and not even all in clan, No common discplines among the > smaller guys.... kinda like the guruhi The group 4 and group 5 vampire capitalised on the G4 Ahrimanes' strength, which was having easy access to superior Animalism. I can diversify my crypt further, or take the likes of Stick out of the deck. > Daughters: Especially with the buffs to melpominee votes, I see no > reason to budge from group 2 Two of the group 6 Vampires have Obfuscate, which makes group 6 the go- to group for Shattering Crescendo. Group 2 does appear to still be the best group for Vote decks and Choir decks, though. Kevin Walsh