[POLL, please vote] 2+ Lunatic Eruptions or XTC laced blood

The current rule about a minion having to perform 2+ mandatory actions, says that the minion gets stuck not being able to do anything, regardless of what these 2 mandatory actions are. So, basicaly even if both actions are the same action (allowed by different copies of the same card in play) the vampire gets stuck (e.g. a vampire wearing 2 XTC laced blood getting stuck not able to perform anything, which seems silly if you ask me) I personaly find this rule silly, when it is about 2+ lunatic eruption or 2+ XTC laced blood. 1. So, what would you like to happen (or should happen) when a minion has 2+ XTC laced blood or 2+ lunatic eruption ? a. get stuck b. perform the mandatory action and if untaps by any means, perform the 2nd mandatory action (of course when not in violation of the NRA rule, e.g. for 2+ XTC laced Blood mandatory hunt, freak drive, mand. hunt) 2. What do you think should happen when a minion has to perform 2 or more mandatory actions that are basicaly the same action ? a. get stuck b. not stuck I really would like to know your opinion, which i respect.

On 9 Nov 2004 17:10:47 -0800, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote: > 1. So, what would you like to happen (or should happen) when a minion > has 2+ > XTC laced blood or 2+ lunatic eruption ? I thought the 'hunt' enforced by different cards is still the same 'hunt'. So with two XTC-s, you simply need to hunt, thus satisfying both requirements, right? Hunt is a basic action. Other than that I vote a. > a. get stuck [...] > 2. What do you think should happen when a minion has to perform 2 or > more > mandatory actions that are basicaly the same action ? I'm with LSJ here (odd but still possible) - defining "basically the same action" is more trouble than the gain is worth. As a further notice, I'm pretty cool with the idea that ONE Lunatic makes you attack, and TWO Lunatics reduce you to a babbling idiot (well, at least making you incoherent enough to act). People will consider removing one LE if they have two... ;) So I vote: moot, as my previous vote prevents it from happening. ;) [...] > I really would like to know your opinion, which i respect. I'm sure this was not what you wanter to read, but I hope you don't really mind me "voting" here... ;) Not that, by the way, any number of positive votes would change anything. If every single VTES player would agree with you, there's still good ole' LSJ, who is quite a nut to crack. -- Bye, Daneel

On 9 Nov 2004 17:10:47 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) scrawled: >The current rule about a minion having to perform 2+ mandatory >actions, says that the minion gets stuck not being able to do >anything, regardless of what these 2 mandatory actions are. > > So, basicaly even if both actions are the same action (allowed by >different copies of the same card in play) the vampire gets stuck >(e.g. a vampire wearing 2 XTC laced blood getting stuck not able to >perform anything, which seems silly if you ask me) > > I personaly find this rule silly, when it is about 2+ lunatic >eruption or 2+ XTC laced blood. HINT: don't play the 2nd one. problem solved. >1. So, what would you like to happen (or should happen) when a minion >has 2+ > XTC laced blood or 2+ lunatic eruption ? > >a. get stuck yes. a. get stuck. >2. What do you think should happen when a minion has to perform 2 or >more > mandatory actions that are basicaly the same action ? define 'basically the same'. what if the vampire has a lunatic eruption, and also has some imaginary new card called 'angry mind' that makes him attack a minion controlled by his predatory at a 0 stealth mandatory action. is that the same action or not? what if it had exact same card text as lunatic eruption, but was a different card name? salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

Daneel wrote: > I thought the 'hunt' enforced by different cards is still the same > 'hunt'. So with two XTC-s, you simply need to hunt, thus satisfying > both requirements, right? Hunt is a basic action. Correct. See also an empty vampire with XTC-Laced Blood. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In message <c6a50f81.0411...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: > I personaly find this rule silly, when it is about 2+ lunatic >eruption or 2+ XTC laced blood. That's because you are stomping your foot and refusing to listen, much like a five-year-old child when told he can't have candy. Go look at Ector's thread for another example. Ector looks just like you to those of us out here who are SANE. Hint: Just because you find it silly doesn't mean that it actually IS silly. Perhaps it's the best of a number of inconvenient options. >1. So, what would you like to happen (or should happen) when a minion >has 2+ > XTC laced blood or 2+ lunatic eruption ? > >a. get stuck 2+ XTC laced blood force the same action -- the default hunt action. So of course the minion can hunt. 2+ Lunatic Eruption should get the minion "stuck", since he has to perform two different actions provided by two different cards in play. How is this so hard to grasp? >2. What do you think should happen when a minion has to perform 2 or >more > mandatory actions that are basicaly the same action ? You cannot accurately define "basically the same action" in such a way that you don't reduce it down to specific cards. When you have rulings that need to apply to specific cards, that is what RULINGS are for -- not general rules. Do you think this was maybe thought over a long time ago? >a. get stuck So this is of course my vote. Plus, I would like to vote: c. You're a Tool. > I really would like to know your opinion, which i respect. No you don't. You are receiving official statements from LSJ, along with reasoned explanations from him and many others, and you STILL feel the need to try, try desperately to show you're right -- now by adding a poll that has no place on this newsgroup and FURTHER disrupting the total lack of useful conversation taking place. The only appropriate way to write a general rule handling this situation is: "When a minion has more than one mandatory action he must take, he may order the actions as he pleases." And that rule would then allow a vampire with zero blood to do something other than hunt, which is contrary to the most basic tenets of V:TES and the World of Darkness; therefore that rule is inadequate. Since there are no other appropriate general rules, a general rule is clearly inappropriate. Now, you can stomp your foot and cry about it all you like, but all that ever got anyone in school was busywork -- so I'm going to give you some busywork. I want you to make a comprehensive list of EVERY possible "forced" action that can be taken in this game. Here, I will start it off for you: 1. Must hunt because vampire has no blood 2. Must hunt because XTC-Laced Blood is on vampire 3. Must rush prey because Lunatic Eruption is on vampire 4. ... 5. ... Let me know when you get done. When you get done, you will understand why what you are asking for is far more silly than the existing rule. Refuse to do this and you will be shown up as someone who isn't really interested in change, but instead is just a spoiled five-year old who wants attention. -- Derek a host is a host from coast to coast and no one will talk to a host that's close unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<z%mkd.3466$7i4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > Daneel wrote: > > I thought the 'hunt' enforced by different cards is still the same > > 'hunt'. So with two XTC-s, you simply need to hunt, thus satisfying > > both requirements, right? Hunt is a basic action. > > Correct. See also an empty vampire with XTC-Laced Blood. so, LSJ please clarify what happens: if a vampire has 2 blood and 2 XTC laced blood, does he hunt ? if a vampire has 2 blood, 1 lunatic eruption and 1 XTC laced blood, does he get stuck ?

salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<b5m3p0102jj67inmt...@4ax.com>... > On 9 Nov 2004 17:10:47 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) > scrawled: > > > HINT: don't play the 2nd one. problem solved. > The problem is, what happens if... it is a theoretical problem, it is not something i deal with in my everyday play... > >1. So, what would you like to happen (or should happen) when a minion > >has 2+ > > XTC laced blood or 2+ lunatic eruption ? > > > >a. get stuck > > yes. a. get stuck. > > >2. What do you think should happen when a minion has to perform 2 or > >more > > mandatory actions that are basicaly the same action ? > > define 'basically the same'. > what if the vampire has a lunatic eruption, and also has some > imaginary new card called 'angry mind' that makes him attack a minion > controlled by his predatory at a 0 stealth mandatory action. is that > the same action or not? what if it had exact same card text as lunatic > eruption, but was a different card name? > yes, i consider this the same action, a rush action.

"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message news:c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com... > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<z%mkd.3466$7i4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > > Daneel wrote: > > > I thought the 'hunt' enforced by different cards is still the same > > > 'hunt'. So with two XTC-s, you simply need to hunt, thus satisfying > > > both requirements, right? Hunt is a basic action. > > > > Correct. See also an empty vampire with XTC-Laced Blood. > > so, LSJ please clarify what happens: > > if a vampire has 2 blood and 2 XTC laced blood, does he hunt ? ? Yes, as above. > if a vampire has 2 blood, 1 lunatic eruption and 1 XTC laced blood, > does he get stuck ? Yes. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message news:c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com... > yes, i consider this the same action, a rush action. So "Enter combat with an ally" (Purity of the Beast) is basically the same (a rush action) as "Enter combat with a Follower of Set" (Radeyah's special). If both of these were mandatory actions, which would be done? What about "(D) Bleed at +6 bleed and +2 stealth and, if the bleed is successful, enter combat with a minion controlled by the target"? Is that the same? Where's the line? [ quoted text not captured ]

<snipped> At last, the ultimate spoiler has come from the upcomming anniversary set. Smudge, the Ignorer (ADV) Caitiff, 1 Cap Camarilla. If smudge burns a minion put a hamster: discipline from your deck, hand or ash heap on smudge. any capacity bonus granted by a hamster: disciplines are ingored by smudge. [Merged] > As a (D) action that costs 2 blood. Bleed at +6 bleed and +2 stealth and, if the bleed > is successful, enter combat with a minion controlled by the target" This MUST BE the text of Smudge the Ignored (ADV). Smiling Tom

In article <2veub9F...@uni-berlin.de>, "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >What about "(D) Bleed at +6 bleed and +2 stealth and, if the bleed >is successful, enter combat with a minion controlled by the target"? Make that an Assamite card and it's good to go. -- charles lechasseur - da...@novideospamtron.ca

"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> escribió en el mensaje news:c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com... > "Smiling Tom" <tma...@almadrava.net> wrote in message news:<2vf04uF...@uni-berlin.de>... [ quoted text not captured ] > haha, what about discipline skill cards ? would these increase > smudge's adv capacity, so he could become a 2 cap vampire and thus > being able to perform the "bleed at +6 bleed..." action that costs 2 > blood ? > Umpf. I forgot to add an anti-sanguine instruction line. Hope they take care of it during playtesting. That pesky word auto-correct... > even if his capacity cannot be increased, he can do the following: > put a hamster: fortitude discipline card on him, put Masochism on him, > enter combat, do 1 damage, get 1 damage (so, 1 counter on Masochism) > play taste, so after combat you have 1 blood on Smudge, adv and 1 > counter on Masochism!!! > No. Masochism counters can only be used to pay card COSTS (just like ankara citadel only halves costs of cards played) > YES!!!, then perform the D action that costs 2 blood... > > what about this ? awesome combo ???? :P Would be great if masochism wasn't as it is.

Jyhad_addict wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<2veub9F...@uni-berlin.de>... >>"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message >>>yes, i consider this the same action, a rush action. >> >>So "Enter combat with an ally" (Purity of the Beast) is basically >>the same (a rush action) as "Enter combat with a Follower of Set" >>(Radeyah's special). >> >>If both of these were mandatory actions, which would be done? > > none, the minion would get stuck. I rephrase what i have done and say: > "...if both actions were/mean to produce the same effect, then the > minion > is not stuck..." So it isn't just "rush action." OK. Now you're closer to the same page as the rest of us. > read my above comments. No, it is not the same. The 2 effects produced > (by this bleed action and e.g. by a lunatic eruption action) are not > exactly the same, so the effects are not the same. OK. Now you're on the same page. The effect of the Lunatic Eruption #1 is not the same as the effect of the Lunatic Eruption #2 -- one is keyed on #1 being in play and the other is keyed on #2 being in play. Consider the same effect but instead of "any prey's minion" it instead selected the target minion at the time the card was played. > The current rules say the following: > > 6. Minion Phase (CE rulebook, page 20) > > "..... > If a single minion has two or more different mandatory actions, then > he is "stuck" and cannot take any action (this does not prevent your > other minions from taking non-mandatory actions, however" > > So, please explain exactly what do you mean with this rule: > > 1st. Which mandatory actions are different and which the same ? > You say "... has two or more DIFFERENT...", so do you mean > that he is stuck when the mandatory actions are different, > but he is NOT stuck when the mandatory actions are not > different ? if yes, which mandatory actions are not different ? "Different" is well-ruled already (for Change of Target, et al.) e.g.: Action cards with different names are different actions. Actions provided by distinct cards in play are different actions. Actions with different targets (diablerize Bob vs. Diablerize Rob) are different actions. > give me an example. Why do two lunatic eruptions lead to 2 > different mandatory actions ? Does this happen, because the > "enter combat" action allowed by eruption is not a basic action, > like hunting is ? Because the action is provided by LE#1 vs. the other action provided by LE#2 (distinct cards in play). > 2nd. This rule says: "...this does not prevent your other minions from > taking NON-MANDATORY actions, however", so do you imply that they > are NOT allowed to take mandatory actions, if a minion is stuck ? No. The mandatory ones are already covered by the fact that you can (must) perform mandatory actions first, but multiple minions with mandatories can be handled in the order you choose. > ok then, if you want to avoid the "same type of action" formulation > and not narrow the aplications of the "new" ruling, if you finaly > decide to make this one, what about this: > > you can add the following text to the rules: > > "If both mandatory actions mean to produce the same effect (e.g. enter > combat via different lunatic eruptions in game) then the minion is not > stuck and must perform the actions as normal" "same effect" is problematic -- you don't address different requirements, costs, etc. > So, if the mandatory actions are 2 "enter combat" actions, he is not > stuck. You said he was in the ally/Setite example above (two "enter combat" actions). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

Jyhad_addict wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<2veu31F...@uni-berlin.de>... > >>"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message >>news:c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com... >> >>>LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message >> >> news:<z%mkd.3466$7i4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... >> >>>>Daneel wrote: >>>> >>>>>I thought the 'hunt' enforced by different cards is still the same >>>>>'hunt'. So with two XTC-s, you simply need to hunt, thus satisfying >>>>>both requirements, right? Hunt is a basic action. >>>> >>>>Correct. See also an empty vampire with XTC-Laced Blood. >>> >>>so, LSJ please clarify what happens: >>> >>>if a vampire has 2 blood and 2 XTC laced blood, does he hunt ? >> >>? Yes, as above. >> >> >>>if a vampire has 2 blood, 1 lunatic eruption and 1 XTC laced blood, >>>does he get stuck ? >> >>Yes. > > > So, you mean to say that if a "basic" action is enforced by 2 > different cards, it is practicaly the same action. like hunting. right > ? No. I mean that XTC-Laced Blood does not provide an action. It requires the performance of an existing action. > So, if there was a mandatory bleed action card and a minion had 3 of > these cards on him, he would still be able to perform a bleed, because > it would be the same action. (by bleed being a basic action) If XTC-Laced Pool said that "This minion must bleed", then he is free to make any bleed he likes (see also Spirit Marionette). If it said "This minion must bleed as a +1 stealth (D) action", then that would be providing its own (distinct) action. > But if a minion he had 2 cards on him, 1 enforcing a mandatory bleed > and the 2nd enforcing a mandatory bleed at +1 bleed ? what about this > ? i believe that this wouldn't be the same action and minion would get > stuck. correct ? Yes. If a minion had two XTC-Laced Pool each that said "This minion must bleed as a +1 stealth (D) action", the he'd be stuck. > if a minion had 2 cards on him, 1 enforcing a mandatory bleed and the > 2nd a mandatory bleed at +1 stealth ? get stuck i believe, right ? Any two distinct actions, yes. Two requirements to perform the same action ("must bleed" or "must hunt" for example) are merely redundant with each other. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: (doesn't matter) Got that list for me yet, kid? [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c6a50f81.0411...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: >> now by adding a >> poll that has no place on this newsgroup and FURTHER disrupting the >> total lack of useful conversation taking place. > >i never saw you disturbed by the "change-Protect-thine-own Poll", >what's so special about this poll that you hate ? Are you functionally illiterate, or do you just not pay attention? The last poll I responded to said in big letters "Polls are meaningless on a newsgroup; argument ad populum is NOT an effective means of determining what's right, or even what people really think, because most players don't read". It also pointed out that polls DISRUPT useful discussion, by adding a ton of noise to the already-complex signal-to-noise ratio. Go back and look for it. I'm not here to spoon-feed you. >Why does this poll have no place in this newsgroup ? care to explain ? Because it's ineffective, inaccurate (an appropriate place for a poll is a webpage with anonymous voting, real-time tracking, and duplicate-checking), ...and it is an attempt by you to BYPASS the concept of reasoned discussion. You've tried reasoning with LSJ, you were told "no", you were told why, and the arguments hold up. So now, since you can't argue anymore, you'll try for the "BUT THE MASSES ARE ON MY SIDE" approach, even when they aren't... (three responses, all disagreeing with you). AND YOU WON'T SHUT UP ABOUT IT. Nobody wants to read 2,000 posts by you a day where you continue to delude yourself that somehow LSJ doesn't understand what you're saying, and bitch about it. He understands perfectly well. He does not agree. He has told you why. You didn't agree with why. You complained. He explained further reasoning behind the "why". You didn't agree with that. But IT IS NOT YOUR DECISION TO MAKE. NOW ACCEPT THAT IT IS THE WAY IT IS AND MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:38:27 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Are you functionally illiterate, or do you just not pay attention? The > last poll I responded to said in big letters "Polls are meaningless on a > newsgroup; argument ad populum is NOT an effective means of determining > what's right, or even what people really think, because most players > don't read". Sure it said, and you of all folks should know, being the mouthpiece... :D > It also pointed out that polls DISRUPT useful discussion, > by adding a ton of noise to the already-complex signal-to-noise ratio. [snip rest] Okay, I can't resist being the flamebait. ;) There IS a point in knowing what other folks think, even if that's not utterly representative. I mean, that was my issue with the no independent antitribu clans stuff. I flamed poor LSJ's ass off, because I never got that even though my arguments were more solid, more people seemed to *prefer* the issue he finally chose. When it comes to preferences, logic is pointless. So my opinion in this case is that once Jyhad_Addict realizes that the problem he currently wishes to combat is either irrelevant or non-existant to most folks who share their view, he'll put the thing into the "preferences" box and concede any further discussion on the matter. The point of a usenet "poll" is probably more to invite forumites to contribute their opinions than to come up with a statistically significant result. Right? ... X-) -- Bye, Daneel

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:j9q6p0lk0snorbov9...@4ax.com... > In message <c6a50f81.0411...@posting.google.com>, > geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: >>Why does this poll have no place in this newsgroup ? care to explain ? > > Because it's ineffective, inaccurate (an appropriate place for a poll is > a webpage with anonymous voting, real-time tracking, and > duplicate-checking), ...and it is an attempt by you to BYPASS the > concept of reasoned discussion. I think I agree with you about all these points ("UH OH!") but even so, you're crossing the line telling people they "(have) no place on this newsgroup". There's nothing in the charter telling people they can't solicit opinions in the form of a poll if they want to. If folks try and use the results from such a poll to "prove" the rule should be changed, fine - flame away. But it they want to engage in this form of discussion, however misguided anyone else feels it is, let them. Vote with your feet and don't post. I think the fact that you feel compelled to respond to this person's posts proves that useful discussion can go on in the course of a poll thread. Or at lest, it could if the disgreements were posted in a less imflamatory way. Fred

In message <9IPkd.93054$bk1.22240@fed1read05>, "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> mumbled something about: >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:j9q6p0lk0snorbov9...@4ax.com... >> In message <c6a50f81.0411...@posting.google.com>, >> geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: >>>Why does this poll have no place in this newsgroup ? care to explain ? >> >> Because it's ineffective, inaccurate (an appropriate place for a poll is >> a webpage with anonymous voting, real-time tracking, and >> duplicate-checking), ...and it is an attempt by you to BYPASS the >> concept of reasoned discussion. > >I think I agree with you about all these points ("UH OH!") but even so, >you're crossing the line telling people they "(have) no place on this >newsgroup". There's nothing in the charter telling people they can't >solicit opinions in the form of a poll if they want to. You misstate me. The person has every place on this newsgroup, as long as he's talking about V:TES -- although frankly, I don't consider him to contribute anything but noise, but even V:TES-flavoured noise is appropriate here. But the poll? It really doesn't serve any useful purpose here, and would be better served on (see above). Newsgroup polls just don't actually produce useful information. Polls on a website produce only as much information as the people who read the website, but at least they have a better chance of being accurate. >If folks try and use the results from such a poll to "prove" the rule >should be changed, fine - flame away. But it they want to engage in this What, you didn't think he was going to do exactly this afterwards? >form of discussion, however misguided anyone else feels it is, let them. >Vote with your feet and don't post. I think the fact that you feel compelled That's just as effective at getting a message across as all the people who didn't vote in the recent election; ie, not at all. >to respond to this person's posts proves that useful discussion can go on >in the course of a poll thread. Or at lest, it could if the disgreements >were posted in a less imflamatory way. You know, people have been giving him reasonable arguments for some time now, and he's doing the foot-stomp, ear-plug thing. Clearly reasonable arguments are wasted effort on this guy. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: > Do you think that i have nothing better to do than look at your postings ? You carefully respond to each one, so... yes, I do. Where's that list? I don't see it yet. Oh, that's right, you weren't interested in addressing the problem, you were just whining. Beeeyotch. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<28q6p0hg8jn7c66ci...@4ax.com>... >> >> Got that list for me yet, kid? >> >yeah, i'll shove it in your ass next time i see you... Just make the list, please. We'll discuss whether you're remotely capable of delivery after you're done making the list. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:ni48p0lfe594he51u...@4ax.com... > In message <9IPkd.93054$bk1.22240@fed1read05>, > "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> mumbled something about: >>I think I agree with you about all these points ("UH OH!") but even so, >>you're crossing the line telling people they "(have) no place on this >>newsgroup". There's nothing in the charter telling people they can't >>solicit opinions in the form of a poll if they want to. > > You misstate me. If you mean I misquoted you, I did not. I went back and looked. If you mean I am misinterpreting the thrust of that particular remark, that remains to be seen. It may be that you only intended to say that 'jyhad_addict' had no place putting _this_ particular poll on the newsgroup for reasons having to do with what you felt was motivating him to do it. But it's sort of come out sounding like you feel that since all Usenet polls are worthless, therefore there's supposed to be some kind of rule that people must not engage in them. > But the poll? It really doesn't serve any useful purpose here, and > would be better served on (see above). Newsgroup polls just don't > actually produce useful information. Polls on a website produce only as > much information as the people who read the website, but at least they > have a better chance of being accurate. That's an opinion, though. You have the right to state it, of course. Just don't make it seem like your opinion has the weight of a newsgroup charter - meaning, people don't flamed for a breach of netiquette just because they choose to ignore your opinion. >>Vote with your feet and don't post. I think the fact that you feel compelled > > That's just as effective at getting a message across as all the people > who didn't vote in the recent election; ie, not at all. I suppose it makes it hard to tell the difference between apathy and antipathy for the poll. But if everyone just ignored them, they wouldn't get any traffic and they'd go away. If 'jyhad_addict' can get people to discuss his proposal that way and people want to do so, they're entitled. Looking over the thread, it looks like he's sparked a fair amount of discussion - but by a pretty narrow group of posters. I doubt he's sparked any traffic that wouldn't have happened in some other thread(s) anyway. Fred

In message <NlVkd.93109$bk1.17562@fed1read05>, "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> mumbled something about: >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:ni48p0lfe594he51u...@4ax.com... >> In message <9IPkd.93054$bk1.22240@fed1read05>, >> "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> mumbled something about: >>>I think I agree with you about all these points ("UH OH!") but even so, >>>you're crossing the line telling people they "(have) no place on this >>>newsgroup". There's nothing in the charter telling people they can't >>>solicit opinions in the form of a poll if they want to. >> >> You misstate me. > >If you mean I misquoted you, I did not. I went back and looked. If Then you are one blind bitch, Fred. I will now quote myself in my original response: "No you don't. You are receiving official statements from LSJ, along with reasoned explanations from him and many others, and you STILL feel the need to try, try desperately to show you're right -- now by adding a poll that has no place on this newsgroup and FURTHER disrupting the total lack of useful conversation taking place." I will highlight the relevant phrase: "a poll that has no place on this newsgroup" Look, Fred, don't waste my time if you're going to be silly enough to make claims that you went back and looked when you OBVIOUSLY DID NOT. >him to do it. But it's sort of come out sounding like you feel that since >all Usenet polls are worthless, therefore there's supposed to be some kind >of rule that people must not engage in them. Well, do you typically encourage people to do things that are worthless? There is no rule, nor should there be one, really; there's too many rules in this world anyway. But it should be common sense, honestly. >> But the poll? It really doesn't serve any useful purpose here, and >> would be better served on (see above). Newsgroup polls just don't >> actually produce useful information. Polls on a website produce only as >> much information as the people who read the website, but at least they >> have a better chance of being accurate. > >That's an opinion, though. You have the right to state it, of course. >Just don't make it seem like your opinion has the weight of a newsgroup >charter - meaning, people don't flamed for a breach of netiquette just >because they choose to ignore your opinion. No, I'm flaming him for three reasons: 1) He's a dumbass who got his answer, got his explanation, got a second explanation, and didn't STFU when the explanations didn't agree with what he wanted to happen 2) He posted the poll ONLY as an attempt to generate an ad populum argument to support his nonexistent case 3) He tried to use a USENET poll as worthwhile information My opinion in this instance has exactly as much weight as it needs to, based on simple common sense. >>>Vote with your feet and don't post. I think the fact that you feel compelled >> >> That's just as effective at getting a message across as all the people >> who didn't vote in the recent election; ie, not at all. > >I suppose it makes it hard to tell the difference between apathy and >antipathy for the poll. But if everyone just ignored them, they wouldn't >get any traffic and they'd go away. If 'jyhad_addict' can get people to >discuss his proposal that way and people want to do so, they're entitled. You know, people try that on webforums too, and that's why webforums are typically filled with useless crap. "Just ignore it and it'll go away" is not a valid solution to most problems larger than a bumblebee. >Looking over the thread, it looks like he's sparked a fair amount of >discussion - but by a pretty narrow group of posters. I doubt he's sparked >any traffic that wouldn't have happened in some other thread(s) anyway. Well, that's sort of my point. He's not generating any new useful traffic; just the same old crap about how he refuses to get it. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1oa8p09ccrd97apu8...@4ax.com... > In message <NlVkd.93109$bk1.17562@fed1read05>, > "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> mumbled something about: > >>"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>news:ni48p0lfe594he51u...@4ax.com... >>> In message <9IPkd.93054$bk1.22240@fed1read05>, >>> "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> mumbled something about: >>>>I think I agree with you about all these points ("UH OH!") but even so, >>>>you're crossing the line telling people they "(have) no place on this >>>>newsgroup". There's nothing in the charter telling people they can't >>>>solicit opinions in the form of a poll if they want to. >>> >>> You misstate me. >> >>If you mean I misquoted you, I did not. I went back and looked. If > > Then you are one blind bitch, Fred. Thank you, kindly, ma'am. Perhaps I am. Still... > I will now quote myself in my original response: ... > Look, Fred, don't waste my time if you're going to be silly enough to > make claims that you went back and looked when you OBVIOUSLY DID NOT. I was looking at precisely the snippet you quoted, ("...by adding a poll that has no place on this newsgroup...") so obviously I did. Those words sure look to me that they match what I said. I'm confused what the hell you're disputing. Mind you the "they" in my original paragraph up there at the top meant polls, not people. Looks like you may have thought I meant the latter. If so, I apologize for not being more clear. >>him to do it. But it's sort of come out sounding like you feel that since >>all Usenet polls are worthless, therefore there's supposed to be some kind >>of rule that people must not engage in them. > > Well, do you typically encourage people to do things that are worthless? > > There is no rule, nor should there be one, really; there's too many > rules in this world anyway. But it should be common sense, honestly. All right. Fair enough. Fred

geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) wrote in message news:<c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>... > salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<b5m3p0102jj67inmt...@4ax.com>... > > > > define 'basically the same'. > > what if the vampire has a lunatic eruption, and also has some > > imaginary new card called 'angry mind' that makes him attack a minion > > controlled by his predatory at a 0 stealth mandatory action. is that > > the same action or not? what if it had exact same card text as lunatic > > eruption, but was a different card name? > > > > yes, i consider this the same action, a rush action. and to avoid misunderstandings, i cosider this "basicaly the same" action, meaning practicaly the same action. To avoid further misunderstandings i no longer use the term "same action, or basicaly the same action, e.t.c." but the formulation "different mandatory actions that mean to (or are to, can't decide which is best to suggest) produce the same effect. e.g. a hunt and an action to move 1 blood from the blood bank. With the difference among "mean to" and "are to" being e.g. none in some cases and great in some others (e.g. when festivo dello estinto is in the game, a sabbat minion with 2 mandatory actions to take, 1 being a hunt and the other an action to move 1 blood from the blood bank, can take any of the two if the "mean to" is used in the new rule i am suggesting, he can't if the "are to" is used). So, i have finaly decided to come to the following suggestion: The existing rules for mandatory actions at the CE rulebook, section 6: Minion phase, page 20 state among others: "If a single minion has two or more different mandatory actions, then he is "stuck" and cannot take any action (this doesn't prevent your other minions from taking non-mandatory actions, however)" So, my suggestion is to add directly under this a sentence-rule with the following text: "If all the different mandatory actions mean to and are going to produce the exact same effect, then he is not stuck and must take the actions"

Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:<opshbc3o...@news.chello.hu>... [ quoted text not captured ] i just asked for people to vote, so i can know what other people think. I din't want to say something like "Masses are on my side" and stuff like this. This is Derek's speculation, who is a complete imbecile if you ask me.

> > > So, if the mandatory actions are 2 "enter combat" actions, he is not > > stuck. > > You said he was in the ally/Setite example above (two "enter combat" > actions). They do not mean or are going to produce the exact same effect, so the minion is stuck. Exact same eefect is mean to and is going to be produced by e.g. 2 lunatic eruptions on the same minion. Anyway, i feel it is time that this thread ends. Thanks for your time, i guess i'll get back to my lunatic eruption deck and carry on making my prey's minions stuck. I don't have a practical problem with the rule, i can use it on my advantage. My complaints were theoretical, maybe in the future my point of view becomes more appealing.

"Smiling Tom" <tma...@almadrava.net> wrote in message news:<2vh1u2F...@uni-berlin.de>... > "Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> escribió en el mensaje > news:c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com... > > "Smiling Tom" <tma...@almadrava.net> wrote in message > news:<2vf04uF...@uni-berlin.de>... > > > No. Masochism counters can only be used to pay card COSTS (just like ankara > citadel only halves costs of cards played) > Would be great if masochism wasn't as it is. Yeah, i know. I remembered this detail some minutes after i had posted. So, i posted a correction, but has not appear yet.

> > Consider the same effect but instead of "any prey's minion" it > instead selected the target minion at the time the card was played. > then according to the addition of the rule-sentence i am suggesting, the effects meant and going to be produced would not be exactly the same and thus the minion would get stuck. note that in my suggestion, the effects that all cards mean to and are going to produce must be EXACTLY the same. So, "mean to" refers to "generaly" and "are going to" refers to practicaly. So, in your above example, the "mean to" condition is surely not met, so the minion gets stuck.

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<28q6p0hg8jn7c66ci...@4ax.com>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: > > (doesn't matter) > > Got that list for me yet, kid? > > -- Derek > If you are married, i pitty your wife who has to deal with you every day. Additionaly, i am sure that you have voted for Bush. Don't ask me why, but i am sure of it. Prove me wrong, i'll really like to see that.

geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) wrote in message news:<c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>... > "Smiling Tom" <tma...@almadrava.net> wrote in message news:<2vf04uF...@uni-berlin.de>... [ quoted text not captured ] > haha, what about discipline skill cards ? would these increase > smudge's adv capacity, so he could become a 2 cap vampire and thus > being able to perform the "bleed at +6 bleed..." action that costs 2 > blood ? > > even if his capacity cannot be increased, he can do the following: > put a hamster: fortitude discipline card on him, put Masochism on him, > enter combat, do 1 damage, get 1 damage (so, 1 counter on Masochism) > play taste, so after combat you have 1 blood on Smudge, adv and 1 > counter on Masochism!!! > > YES!!!, then perform the D action that costs 2 blood... > > what about this ? awesome combo ???? :P i mean it could be done if there was a card with such a text, as Smudge could not use the Masochism counter to pay for an action allowed by text of his special ability, but only for a card played.

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kq48p0thgikg02mc9...@4ax.com>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: > > > Do you think that i have nothing better to do than look at your postings ? > > You carefully respond to each one, so... yes, I do. > > Where's that list? I don't see it yet. Oh, that's right, you weren't > interested in addressing the problem, you were just whining. Beeeyotch. > Look where the sun don't shines and you will see the list... bi-a-tcch.

"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:<NlVkd.93109$bk1.17562@fed1read05>... [ quoted text not captured ] Thanks for your support about my rights in this group. Anyway don't bother trying to reason with Derek, as it seems that he has some "personal" problem with me for reasons i am not aware of. Maybe he is angry about our previous "confrontation" in the "deals" thread, where he was spiting poison and lies against me. My point of view, is that he likes offending people and having an offensive attitude, just to feel superior.

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ni48p0lfe594he51u...@4ax.com>... > In message <9IPkd.93054$bk1.22240@fed1read05>, > "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> mumbled something about: > > >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > You misstate me. The person has every place on this newsgroup, as long > as he's talking about V:TES -- although frankly, I don't consider him to > contribute anything but noise, but even V:TES-flavoured noise is > appropriate here. > this is just your opinion and if you think you can contribute to the vtes more than me, by offending people (like me) just for fun then you are horribly mistaken. > > What, you didn't think he was going to do exactly this afterwards? > are you some kind of prophet ? or just a silly person ? i vote the latter. seriously, i just wanted to see what other people thought. You imagine things and you twist things around, just to avoid admiting that your words were words of anger and not of a civilized person. It seems that you are not man enough to admit it. Get real, you are ridiculus to imply that you know the future and what i was about to do next... Look my late postings in the "Poll" thread and you will see. But you won't admit it anyway, because you... the great Derek as you see yourself, can never be wrong... right Derek ? > You know, people have been giving him reasonable arguments for some time > now, and he's doing the foot-stomp, ear-plug thing. Clearly reasonable > arguments are wasted effort on this guy. > you are not in a position to judge if the arguments were wasted. You are so selfish. Mind your own business, if the people who gave me the reasonable arguments wanted to treat me the way you treated me, then they would have done so. But they didn't and you did, because you are a bitch and you want to offend people to feel superior. You are the one who wants attention, something you have accused me of. Bottom line... Mind your own business and stop pretending to be the police of this group. Treat me with respect and i'll treat you with respect. If you don't, then please don't bother answering any of my future threads or talking about me and i will do the same. You know what, i have better things to do than offend people or get offended. Obviously you don't, so stop pissing me off and go get a life!

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: >Thanks for your support about my rights in this group. Certainly, you can post a poll in the group. Historically, however, across many news groups, people posting newsgroups with a subtext that this is how things should be do very badly. However, when you seem to have a lot of trouble understanding what the current rules mean, as people are repeatedly having to explain them to you, campaigning for change seems to be foolhardy at best. You would do significantly better if you spent more time and effort understanding the detailed ramifications of the current ruleset *before* campaigning for change. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though! EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.

> Additionaly, i am sure that you have voted for Bush. Don't ask me why, > but i am sure of it. Prove me wrong, i'll really like to see that. What the fuck is wrong with voting for Bush? Don't you live in Greece? Do I comment on your fucking election in your fucking country. You want to bitch about who is the President of the USA then fucking get a job in the USA apply for citizenship and fucking vote. Otherwise tough shit, we get to determine our own leaders in this country. You get to determine who are the leaders in your fucking country. Fuck You,

Skip the politics, please. Flames are bad enough without throwing politics in for a truly content-free environment. If someone brings up politics, ignore him. If you respond to part of a post that has a political statement (jibe, endorsement, whatever), snip it (and optionally include a note that politics don't belong here). Now back to the apolitical flames... [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: (snipped... still doesn't matter) Hey kid, where's the list? I see you really DIDN'T care to try to support your case... Guess you're just another whiner. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: >> >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >> You misstate me. The person has every place on this newsgroup, as long >> as he's talking about V:TES -- although frankly, I don't consider him to >> contribute anything but noise, but even V:TES-flavoured noise is >> appropriate here. > >this is just your opinion and if you think you can contribute to the >vtes more than me, by offending people (like me) just for fun then you >are horribly mistaken. I have already contributed more to this game than you or many people here will ever know, ...and I have certainly contributed more than you yourself ever will. Now go make your list, come back, and we'll see if you can finally understand. I personally see you as just a spoiled-brat kid who doesn't have any real comprehension of the effort or thought process required to produce a quality game; instead, you want to stomp your foot and cry big tears when you don't get your way. Don't like it when I treat you like a child? Don't act like one. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <DTWkd.93126$bk1.62081@fed1read05>, "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> mumbled something about: >>>>>I think I agree with you about all these points ("UH OH!") but even so, >>>>>you're crossing the line telling people they "(have) no place on this >>>>>newsgroup". There's nothing in the charter telling people they can't >>>>>solicit opinions in the form of a poll if they want to. >>>> >>>> You misstate me. >>> >>>If you mean I misquoted you, I did not. I went back and looked. If >> >> Then you are one blind bitch, Fred. > >Thank you, kindly, ma'am. Perhaps I am. Still... Still what? Look at your own quote. >I was looking at precisely the snippet you quoted, ("...by adding a >poll that has no place on this newsgroup...") so obviously I did. Those >words sure look to me that they match what I said. I'm confused what the >hell you're disputing. It's basic grammar, Fred. Let's look at your quote again. >I think I agree with you about all these points ("UH OH!") but even so, >you're crossing the line telling people they "(have) no place on this >newsgroup". There's nothing in the charter telling people they can't "They" is a pronoun. When confronted with a pronoun, one searches for the nearest matching antecedent noun to determine exactly what the aforementioned pronoun refers to. The nearest antecedent is "people", and you don't mention "polls" at all prior to using "they" -- so clearly, you meant "people". Or at least, that's what the paragraph reads. >Mind you the "they" in my original paragraph up there at the top meant >polls, not people. Looks like you may have thought I meant the latter. >If so, I apologize for not being more clear. Fred, as a speaker of English, how exactly am I supposed to know you're referring to the polls themselves, instead of people? You never even mentioned the polls. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: >Look where the sun don't shines and you will see the list... bi-a-tcch. That's right... keep dodging the issue, keep dodging the facts. Run, little boy, run faster, maybe you can get away from the truth. Produce a list, or admit you were wrong. [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@cox-internet.com (XZealot) wrote in message news:<607fd93.04111...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] thanks, you are a true Zealot, mr. Xzealot. note: i never made a political statement, or said anything bad about President Bush. I have just predicted that Derek has voted for Bush. Is that bad ? Fuck you too.

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: >Fuck you too. As an additional helpful note, if you want to campaign for change, posting irrelevant, leading and provocative statements of no relevance at all - whilst also doing nothing to further your cause - is probably unhelpful. [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@cox-internet.com (XZealot) wrote in message news:<607fd93.04111...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] yeah, i love you too. So, i'd like to dedicate a song to you. Megadeth - Captive honor (Countown to Extinction 1992) Madness comes and madness goes An insane place, with insane moves Battles without, for battles within Where evil lives and evil rules Breaking them up, just breaking them in Quickest way out, quickest relief wins Never disclose, never betray Cease to speak or cease to breathe And when you kill a man, you're a murderer Kill many, and you're a conqueror Kill them all...Ooh...Oh you're a god! ...... jyhad addict

[ quoted text not captured ] norm why would a class guy like you react in such an inapproriate way like this. so most europeans would have prefered mr. kerry, so what. altough it´s not our business, it does affect us. the way he manhandels the economy hurts everybody around the world. and about the US not interfering with forgein elections and accepting the results, you might wanna think about that again. ;-)) stefan (who thinks president bush just won because some democrats want ms rodham in 08)

No, seriously. Take the political stuff elsewhere. And leave it there when you get it there. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:36:55 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > No, seriously. > > Take the political stuff elsewhere. > > And leave it there when you get it there. That's why I generally disapprove of off-topicness. But some people think that there is such a thing as a "VTES community" and feel the necessity to share their thoughts or feelings on non-related topics. Politics will be among those thoughts. -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > That's why I generally disapprove of off-topicness. But some people > think that there is such a thing as a "VTES community" and feel the > necessity to share their thoughts or feelings on non-related topics. > Politics will be among those thoughts. Ohh, don't *make* me post the FAQ again... Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

> > "Smiling Tom" <tma...@almadrava.net> wrote in message > news:<2vf04uF...@uni-berlin.de>... > > > Smudge, the Ignorer (ADV) > > > Caitiff, 1 Cap > > > Camarilla. If smudge burns a minion put a hamster: discipline from your > > > deck, hand or ash heap on smudge. any capacity bonus granted by a > > > hamster: disciplines are ingored by smudge. > > > [Merged] > > > > As a (D) action that costs 2 blood. Bleed at +6 bleed and +2 stealth > > > > and, if the bleed > > > > is successful, enter combat with a minion controlled by the target" > > > > Umpf. I forgot to add an anti-sanguine instruction line. Hope they take care > of it during playtesting. That pesky word auto-correct... Revelation of the Sire would work pretty well too. :)

On 12 Nov 2004 15:51:40 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) wrote: >If you are married, i pitty your wife who has to deal with you every >day. >Additionaly, i am sure that you have voted for Bush. Don't ask me why, >but i am sure of it. Prove me wrong, i'll really like to see that. rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad FAQ Contents: 1. What is this newsgroup for? 2. How do I set up an account? 3. Why is the group called rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad? 4. Why can't I post trades or sales here? 5. Where can I post trades or sales? 6. How do I behave as a model newsgroup citizen? 7. What does this abbreviation mean? 8. What are clan newsletters? 1. What is this newsgroup for? rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad is an unmoderated usenet discussion group dedicated to the discussion of the collectible card game Vampire: The Eternal Struggle (VTES). rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad can be read and posted on through any usenet capable newsreader program or on the web at http://groups.google.com. Appropriate topics of discussion include, but are not limited to, strategy, deck design, game design, game balance, tournament announcements and reports, and pretty much anything else related to the playing of VTES. By virtue of the group's original charter, posts about trades, auctions and sales of VTES cards are not allowed in this group. The group was created in 1994. The original charter of the group is as follows: Discussion of the trading card game "Jyhad". Topics will include the rules of the game, strategies for playing the game and information about the various cards and expansions sets for the game, as well as other topics deemed to be specific to Jyhad. Postings regarding sales, auctions, or trades of Jyhad cards are not permitted in this group, as they belong in the companion newsgroup r.g.?.marketplace. The original charter is archived at: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=rec.games.deckmaster-reorg-RESULT%40uunet.uu.net 2. How do I set up an account? Instructions for using google groups or configuring outlook express to read the newsgroup can be found at: http://www.thelasombra.com/how_to_access_newsgroup.txt If your isp does not carry rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad, and you do not like using google groups, visit http://news.individual.net/register.html for other ideas for access to the newsgroup. 3. Why is the group called rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad? When VTES was originally released, it was called Jyhad. Its name was changed to Vampire: The Eternal Struggle not too long after. No one has ever gone through the effort to start a new group called rec.games.trading-cards.vtes. 4. Why can't I post trades or sales here? The original charter of the group prohibited it, presumably to avoid the group being flooded with trade/sales/auction posts, making the actual discussion of the game difficult. There are many other avenues for trading/selling/buying cards online. 5. Where can I post trades or sales? Originally, a specific newsgroup for this was created (rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.misc). Currently, that newsgroup is mostly (although not completely) full of sales posts and e-bay auctions, with very little actual trading (although if you look a lot, you might find some VTES trading occasionally). Most trading seems to be done on specific trade websites (like the Communal Haven at http://www.communal-haven.com , The Succubus Club at http://www.succubusclub.net , or http://trade.mahasamatman.com/VTES/ ) or on the yahoogroups VTES trading listserve ( VTES_T...@yahoogroups.com ). There are many places to find cards to buy on the web, such as e-bay and http://www.TheLasombra.com/cardtrader.htm (which has a list of links to many other sales sites). 6. How do I behave as a model newsgroup citizen? rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad is an unmoderated newsgroup. This means that there is no one who specifically exists to make sure the place runs smoothly, and that everyone needs to police themselves and their neighbors. To this end, here are a few pointers on how to get along with everyone nicely on the newsgroup: A. Lurk before you post. If you are new, watch the newsgroup for a few days/weeks before you jump in with lengthy discussions/arguments. You'll get a sense of how folks behave and interact, which is handy. B. Stay on topic. We are all here to discuss the game VTES. There is a lot of latitude as to what this means, but if you are posting messages that aren't even remotely related to VTES, you are probably not doing what you should be. The occasional completely off topic personal announcement (births, deaths, marriages, whatever) comes up, as we are a community, and these are usually greeted with good humor or appropriate response, but you should probably shy away from starting lengthy discussions about your favorite video game, movie, or other interests. The occasional off topic post is generally tolerated by the group as a whole, but if someone regularly goes way off topic they will usually be called on it and asked to stop. C. Quote relevant text that you are responding to. If you are writing a follow up to someone's post, quote the important parts that you are responding to--either sentences or paragraphs. Many newsreaders will quote and indicate quoted text for you, but if you can't figure out how to do this, you can, at the very least, use >> or << marks at the beginning and ending of the quoted text. Standard procedure is to place a quote in your message, and then follow it with your response. No one likes it when people "top post" (quote an entire message, and then just put your response at the top of the post) or "me too post" (quote an entire message, and just put at the top or the bottom "I agree!" or something). If you are going to put the effort into responding, make it worth everyone's time to read it. D. Try and use appropriate punctuation and spelling. You are here trying to communicate with other people, and maybe even defend an argument. While no one will generally attack you for the occasional typo/misspelling, run-on sentence, or dangling participle, people like to see an attempt to use capital letters, correct spelling, and punctuation. Generally, if you write without these things, your messages will be ignored. E. Title your posts correctly. People like to be able to sift through posts by title, so make sure your title is appropriate. It is also nice, if you are starting a thread of a type that comes up a lot, you put a tag at the start of your title in brackets. Some of the common tags are [DECK] for a deck post, [REPORT] for a tournament report, [TOURNAMENT] for a tournament announcement. 7. What does this abbreviation mean? rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad, being a discussion forum with a specific focus (VTES), tends to refer to the same things over and over again, and to this end, there are many common acronyms or abbreviations that you might come across. Some of the more common ones include: Clans: Most clan names are shortened to some abbreviation (Bru = Brujah; Tre = Tremere, etc.), but there aren't really hard fast rules. Anti-Clans: Often, antitribu clans will be abbreviated with an "!" at the start of the name (!Bru or !Brujah for the Brujah Antitribu). It is some math shorthand that someone decided was a good way to indicate antitribu clans. Disciplines: Disciplines are abbreviated as the first three letters of that discipline, either in all lower case (for the inferior version) or all capital (for the superior), i.e. POT is superior Potence where pot is inferior Potence. CL: Card Limit. Often preceded with a number (4CL). VTES does not use a per card card limit (i.e. your deck can consist of, like, 90 of the same card if you really want), but the occasional discussion of card limits comes up (and usually ends in flames). S:CE: Strike: Combat Ends. IG: Immortal Grapple PTO: Protect Thine Own SC: Succubus Club DotB: Drawing out the Beast PF: Pulled Fangs TB: Thoughts Betrayed NRA: No Repeat Actions LSJ: L. Scott Johnson, the official Net Rep/Rules guy VEKN: Vampire Elder Kindred Network, the official player's organization. A great deal more of newsgroup specific terminology can be found at: http://www.thelasombra.com/lists/abbreviations.txt and http://www.thelasombra.com/terminology.htm 8. What are clan newsletters? The VEKN organizes official Clan Specific strategy newsletters that are posted on a semi-monthly basis on this newsgroup. They are also archived on the web at http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/newsletter/nl_clan.html and http://www.TheLasombra.com/ClanPages/ as well as many other web locations, as well as being available as a mail based list serve. This FAQ is created and maintained by Peter D Bakija (pd...@lightlink.com) with support from Jeff Thompson. Last updated 5.3.04.

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:28:55 +0100, Stefan Ferenci <a95+NO+58+NO+60no@SP+.unet.univie.+AM+.ac.at> wrote: >norm why would a class guy like you react in such an inapproriate way >like this. so most europeans would have prefered mr. kerry, so what. >altough it´s not our business, it does affect us. the way he manhandels >the economy hurts everybody around the world. and about the US not >interfering with forgein elections and accepting the results, you might >wanna think about that again. ;-)) >stefan (who thinks president bush just won because some democrats want >ms rodham in 08) rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad FAQ [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <opshgjtg...@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> mumbled something about: [ quoted text not captured ] Politics is the bane of civilized discussion and reasoned discourse. Nothing useful comes of a discussion when politics enters it, or when people resort to political attacks in an attempt to prove completely unrelated points. Trust those of us who have seen it before -- you DO NOT WANT political discussions on this newsgroup. For an example of what it does, I refer you to rec.gambling.poker, where over 50% of all messages and posts are political rants and meaningless arguing. No, really. Go read rec.gambling.poker RIGHT NOW, and see just how worthless political discussions can make a newsgroup. Do not respond to this message until you have read rec.gambling.poker. I am not trying to tell you not to respond; I am not trying to shut you up; I am saying that you do not understand, you CANNOT understand, until you see the horrendous waste of space and time that political discussions take up -- TO NO PURPOSE. Nothing ever changes as a result of these arguments except that more hatred is spread, something this country and the world cannot afford right now. There are newsgroups specifically for politics for a purpose. That purpose is to keep all that crap away from us, so that we can talk about V:TES. Same with the comp.os.advocacy stuff -- so we don't have to be interrupted with C64 v. Amiga, or Mac v. PC flamewars constantly, because those threads will take over and RUIN a group. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:32:51 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> That's why I generally disapprove of off-topicness. But some people >> think that there is such a thing as a "VTES community" and feel the >> necessity to share their thoughts or feelings on non-related topics. >> Politics will be among those thoughts. > > Politics is the bane of civilized discussion and reasoned discourse. > Nothing useful comes of a discussion when politics enters it, or when > people resort to political attacks in an attempt to prove completely > unrelated points. I agree. I've seen the destructive power of a political debate. I also think that politics is completely inappropriate on this board. I guess what I really wanted to say in my previous post is that (i) as soon as we start talking about non-VTES stuff we are bound to hit topics that are inappropriate for a board dedicated to discussing VTES, and (ii) some such topics are highly sensitive and as such bound to ignite endless flamewars that risk the integrity of VTES discussion. Admittedly, there are some extremely flammable subjects, like politics. So I guess where I'm getting at is that I agree with you. I strived for brevity and apparently only succeeded at failing to attain clarity. -- Bye, Daneel

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:06:21 -0500, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: > Daneel wrote: > >> That's why I generally disapprove of off-topicness. But some people >> think that there is such a thing as a "VTES community" and feel the >> necessity to share their thoughts or feelings on non-related topics. >> Politics will be among those thoughts. > > Ohh, don't *make* me post the FAQ again... I wanted to post something witty but I decided against. So please assume that I posted something witty regarding the topic, and laugh accordingly while the topic is being dropped. If you do not desire to assume that I wrote something witty, then please note my intention of doing so. -- Bye, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] ? Sorry, I don't understand where you're going with that. If you're agreeing, then why add to the noise? If you're disagreeing, say so. But do it in email. Or on dev.null [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<ByuDSYJR...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: > >Fuck you too. > > As an additional helpful note, if you want to campaign for change, > posting irrelevant, leading and provocative statements of no relevance > at all - whilst also doing nothing to further your cause - is probably > unhelpful. you are right, i apologize.

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<upjdp0lcjk0d0tkun...@4ax.com>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: > > >Look where the sun don't shines and you will see the list... bi-a-tcch. > > That's right... keep dodging the issue, keep dodging the facts. Run, > little boy, run faster, maybe you can get away from the truth. > > Produce a list, or admit you were wrong. > about what ? i have already agreed with LSJ on the matter (i have brought up) in another thread. I never had a problem with admiting that i am wrong, when i am. On the contrary it seems that you are the one who sees yourself as Mr. Right and we all know that Mr. Right can never be wrong, right Derek ? So, i'd suggest that you should get real for your own sake, arrogance is not your friend it is your enemy. You are 7 years older than me, but you act like a small child. Anyway, now that we have become very good friends, how about a trade ? are you capable of driving a hard bargain ? i am curious... if you'd like to give it a try email me at geo...@for.auth.gr, as that is not a matter that concerns the group.

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<H6GCQ6Rz...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: > >Thanks for your support about my rights in this group. > > Certainly, you can post a poll in the group. Historically, however, > across many news groups, people posting newsgroups with a subtext that > this is how things should be do very badly. > > However, when you seem to have a lot of trouble understanding what the > current rules mean, as people are repeatedly having to explain them to > you, campaigning for change seems to be foolhardy at best. > just this rule. My comprehension of the rules is almost complete. Don't take my word on it, it will be proven in my following postings. I just didn't know what exactly was "same action" ruled to be, as i am in the game just for 2 years and that had slipped my attention up to now. I am quite certain that my comprehension of the current ruleset is way above the average 2-year player. > > You would do significantly better if you spent more time and effort > understanding the detailed ramifications of the current ruleset *before* > campaigning for change. Never meant to do such a thing as campaigning for a change. So please think again before declaring me a V:tes renegade or rebel :P I just wanted to know what people believed about the certain subject. my mistake if it was taken as such an effort. I have seen a previous poll about "PTO.. e.t.c.", so i thought that polls were meant to just "investigate" what other people think. Something that i value and respect. I never meant to campaign for a change. If my intentions were to start a campaign for change in Vtes, then it would have dealt with more important matters and not with just a card (lunatic eruption). I believe this is easily understood.

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BDBCDE9D.1AD76%pd...@lightlink.com>... > Daneel wrote: > > > That's why I generally disapprove of off-topicness. But some people > > think that there is such a thing as a "VTES community" and feel the > > necessity to share their thoughts or feelings on non-related topics. > > Politics will be among those thoughts. > > Ohh, don't *make* me post the FAQ again... > that's not in my intentions. Though it would be fun to add a counter that will count how many times you have posted it.

Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:<opshgjtg...@news.chello.hu>... [ quoted text not captured ] Well, if there is no such thing as a Vtes community, then we should create such a thing. Though, i agree that off-topic subjects should be kept low.

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<ByuDSYJR...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: > >Fuck you too. > > As an additional helpful note, if you want to campaign for change, > posting irrelevant, leading and provocative statements of no relevance > at all - whilst also doing nothing to further your cause - is probably > unhelpful. as i have said, i apologize for the bad language. But maybe you should have directed a comment like this to Xzealot as well. As he was the first to provoke me and use that kind of language to me. But you haven't, so should i dare think that Xzealot is your friend and thus you don't want to direct such a comment to him ? or did you just forgot to ? note: i have never campaigned for a change, i have just discussed a possible change.

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<XbJld.902812$Gx4.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > No, seriously. > > Take the political stuff elsewhere. > > And leave it there when you get it there. seriously, never intented to make a political statement and never made any. seriously, if you think that me believing that Derek Ray voted for Bush is a political statement of any kind, then please explain to me why you think such a thing. Again, if you are curious what reasons made me believe that Derek voted for Bush, just ask me. seriously, if you think that mentioning the first 11 lyrics of Megadeth's song "captive honor" is a political statement of any kind, please explain to me why. And if indeed is, then blame them for the statement and me for liking their music and lyrics so much to not be able to resist mentioning them in this group. As for no particular reason, this song came to my mind when i saw Zealot's posting, in which he so vividly demonstrated his class.

> >That's why I generally disapprove of off-topicness. But some people > >think that there is such a thing as a "VTES community" and feel the > >necessity to share their thoughts or feelings on non-related topics. > >Politics will be among those thoughts. > > Politics is the bane of civilized discussion and reasoned discourse. > Nothing useful comes of a discussion when politics enters it, or when > people resort to political attacks in an attempt to prove completely > unrelated points. > > Trust those of us who have seen it before -- you DO NOT WANT political > discussions on this newsgroup. Besides only the primodonnas and above get to vote anyway....

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<5i8fp0944lec8is6f...@4ax.com>... > On 12 Nov 2004 15:51:40 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) > wrote: > > > >If you are married, i pitty your wife who has to deal with you every > >day. > > >Additionaly, i am sure that you have voted for Bush. Don't ask me why, > >but i am sure of it. Prove me wrong, i'll really like to see that. > > > rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad FAQ > still not proven wrong, so what does this show ? that i am very good at making predictions. Still i have never made any political comment, just a prediction. I admit that me saying these things are not a pretty sight, but what Derek and Zealot have said about me are an even worse sight. Thanks for replying to my posting with the group's FAQ, it really helped. if you want to help Derek and Zealot as well, then you may want to reply to their postings, in which they use offensive language to offend me and they did that first, with the Gentleman's FAQ. But of course you would never do that to a friend of yours, right ? Anyway, i am willing to stop flaming, as it is something i do not enjoy doing, provided that Derek stops offending me without provocation as he is doing since the "deals" thread. And Zealot realizes that by mentioning a politician's name is not an act of "bitching" about U.S.A.'s president as he accused me of doing. Additionaly, i realy didn't like him calling my country a "fucking" one, but no problem as it is no real problem when someone is using such means to prove, i really don't know what, that he is supperior i guess ? this is where i laugh and wonder... can i expect anything different from a guy who proudly pronounces himself as X-Zealot ???? quite frankly, no. Yes i am out of topic, i know. But what can i do when anyone offends me and my country for no reason ? respond and that i have done. So, can you please add to the FAQ a question of mine ? Q: is my prediction of Derek voting for Bush a political statement ?

Stefan Ferenci <a95+NO+58+NO+60no@SP+.unet.univie.+AM+.ac.at> wrote in message news:<41975d95$0$12646$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... [ quoted text not captured ] Spoken like the true Champion, i bow before you. Ooops, you made a political statement.... You know what that means, you get the FAQ posting delivered by the Lasombra, while Zealot gets a friendly tap on the back. (not to mention Derek who has repeatedly offended and provoked me for no serious reason, his back MUST really hurt from all those friendly taps) Maybe you shouldn't have said that, he (Zealot) may start calling your country a "fucking" one, too as he has done so for mine (Greece). George from Greece (who wants to remind Mr. Xzealot who has called Greece a "fucking country" that when Greeks in their "fucking" country were creating civilization and democracy his country was non-existent)

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<89cfp0dfeoldq6fe6...@4ax.com>... > In message <opshgjtg...@news.chello.hu>, > Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> mumbled something about: > > > For an example of what it does, I refer you to rec.gambling.poker, where > over 50% of all messages and posts are political rants and meaningless > arguing. No, really. Go read rec.gambling.poker RIGHT NOW, and see > just how worthless political discussions can make a newsgroup. > completely agree, but what about offensive behaviours for no serious reason like yours towards me ? can a behaviour like this ruin a group if it is adopted by the majority of the users ? Finaly, i want to note that i have never made any political statement in this group. I dare anyone who thinks otherwise to quote this imaginary statement of mine and tell me why it is a political statement and what it means.

X_Ze...@cox-internet.com (XZealot) wrote in message news:<607fd93.04111...@posting.google.com>... > > Additionaly, i am sure that you have voted for Bush. Don't ask me why, > > but i am sure of it. Prove me wrong, i'll really like to see that. > > What the fuck is wrong with voting for Bush? Don't you live in > Greece? Do I comment on your fucking election in your fucking > country. You want to bitch about who is the President of the USA then > fucking get a job in the USA apply for citizenship and fucking vote. > Otherwise tough shit, we get to determine our own leaders in this > country. You get to determine who are the leaders in your fucking > country. > > Fuck You, I guess calling my country a "fucking" one shows your class. I just want to remind you, that when the people of my "fucking" country built "The Parthenon" (5th century BC), so we can have 1 extra master phase action every turn for the one time cost of 2 pool, your country was non existent and was created some 2000 years later. So please spare the "fucking country" stuff and show some respect, as i show for your country.

On 14 Nov 2004 17:19:39 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) wrote: >if you want to help Derek and Zealot as well, then you may want to >reply to their postings, in which they use offensive language to >offend me and they did that first, with the Gentleman's FAQ. But of >course you would never do that to a friend of yours, right ? I have spoken with them in person. They are well aware of the behavior seen as useful. They are also aware of how their behavior is unhelpful. If you would like to talk about the game, please do so. Personal attacks are getting you nowhere. There is no evidence that Derek is eligible to vote in the United States. ------------------ ------------------ ... and now for something completely different. http://www.thelasombra.com/variants/story_time.txt Alternate tourney format (non sanctioned): In some way, encourage/force players to use the Clan Novel characters in their crypts. Throw out extra Victory Points for re-enacting scenes from the novels. gomi no sensei: Fatima al-Faqadi burns Ambrosio Luis Moncada using Eruption of Vitae: +2 VP. The Little Tailor of Prague uses Fleshcraft on Victoria Ash: +1 VP. Burning either Chantry Elder (Rebekka or Justine) with a Garrote: +1 VP. A Toreador below 5 capacity burns a Gangrel above 7 capacity in combat: +3 VP (aah! it's Leopold!) You control Hesha Ruhadze, Ramona, Khalil Ravana, and Powerbase:New York for 3 turns without any of the characters entering torpor: +1 VP. Victoria Ash becomes Prince of Atlanta while you control the High Museum of Art: +1 VP. Peter Oh: Pier 13 Baltimore is burned using an Arson or Bomb +1 VP (Extra VP if a Ventrue below 4 does the burning). Fatima Hidden Lurkers in a combat between Lucita and Talley. +2 VP Moncada manages to assist in the influencing (via GtA or Enchant Kindred) Talley, Domingo de Polonia and Sascha Vykos +3 VP Tap and Burn a War Ghoul or have a Sabbat Vampire use Rampage to burn the High Museum of Art +1 VP Anatole diablerizes the Prince of Atlanta. +2 VP Lucita burns the Archbishop of Miami in combat +1 VP Theo Bell burns Peter Blaine in combat +1 VP A Methuselah with a ready Sabbat Vampire takes control of Powerbase Washington DC or Pier 13 Baltimore from a Methuselah with a Camarilla vampire. +2 VP Andrew 'Wes' Weston: While you have Sasha Vykos in play, steal your prey's Parmenides as he is played... but find some way to *not* give him back. Have Hesha create an Embrace(e) and then use a Wooden Stake on her... while another player tries to diablerize her with Khalil Ravana, block with Ramona. While you control Moncada and someone else controls Lucita, torpor her and then Graverob her so she is now on your side. While controlling Victoria Ash and the High Musem of Art, have a party and invite all the other signature characters. Jeroen Rombouts: Having a Malkavian with superior Protean burn a Lasombra Bishop (resp The General and Sebastian): +4VP Khalil diablerizes a Progeny/ Embrace made by a Ventrue Prince: +2VP Lucita beats the crap out off Talley the Hound but he survives: +1 VP A Nossy with cap below 5 tries to play stealth (min +3) and Anatole manages to block: +3 VP A meth. controlling one of the Lasombra Archbishops destroys the High Museum of Art:+1 VP while controlling Sascha Vykos: an additional VP with a War Ghoul: 2 additional VP David Hammond: Calebros brings Hesha out of torpor: 1 VP A Nosferatu vampire with a capacity less than 4 burns a sabbat vampire using a flamethrower: 1 VP A Sabbat vampire burns the above Nosferatu: 1 VP Any vampire destroys Pier 13: Baltimore using a bomb: 1 VP Reyda Siddiki: From the giovanni clan novel only, so playable with those Giovannis on the table. A meth plays "masquerade endangered" on a hunting action fom Chas or Isabel Giovanni = 1VP any meth discards a "frenzy" as a master out of turn to make Chas fail a political action = 2 VP any vampire surviving combat against Chas by playing at least 3 celerity cards = 1 VP drawing out the beast played on Chas = 1VP The mausoleum and Mob connection stay in play till end of game = 1 VP Chas recruits Ghoul retainer = 1VP Chas plays "Tortured Confession" = 1 VP Giovanni acceptance played = 1 VP if referendum called, 1 additional VP if vote passes. Giovanni segregation put in play = 1 VP Isabel Giovanni plays "Summon soul" = 1 VP Ambrogino, Isabel and Chas hit the table = 1 VP Any Nosferatu playing "Dirty Little Secrets" = 2 VP

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<nejdp0l89km8cdqtg...@4ax.com>... >> > Fred, as a speaker of English, how exactly am I supposed to know you're > referring to the polls themselves, instead of people? You never even > mentioned the polls. > Because he is now telling you so. So, is there a particular reason that you are still arguing with him ? or do you just want to prove that you are right for one more time ?

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<06jdp09dbqsua5qlv...@4ax.com>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: > > >> >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > >this is just your opinion and if you think you can contribute to the > >vtes more than me, by offending people (like me) just for fun then you > >are horribly mistaken. > > I have already contributed more to this game than you or many people > here will ever know, ...and I have certainly contributed more than you > yourself ever will. Now go make your list, come back, and we'll see if > you can finally understand. > Just because you made it to The Lasombra's "Who is Who" does not mean that you have contributed shit for Vtes. If you want to make a point speak with facts. > I personally see you as just a spoiled-brat kid who doesn't have any > real comprehension of the effort or thought process required to produce > a quality game; instead, you want to stomp your foot and cry big tears > when you don't get your way. > > Don't like it when I treat you like a child? Don't act like one. > that is just your personal opinion based on your need to feel superior. It is you who are the spoiled-brat kid. I am 26 and able to think and behave like a 26 years old human being. You are 33, but you think and behave like a teenager.

Jyhad_addict wrote: > seriously, if you think that me believing that Derek Ray voted for > Bush > is a political statement of any kind, then please explain to me why > you think such a thing. Again, if you are curious what reasons made me > believe that Derek voted for Bush, just ask me. Ok. While I'm loathe to get involved here, really, now you are just being a wank. The statement of "I bet you voted for Bush", or whatever, is a very clear political statement, atributing whatever bothered you about Derek with behavior that would lead to voting for Bush. The political commentary is in no way thinly veiled. Mind you, I'm not continuing this political commentary here, I'm just pointing out that trying to claim that there was none is wildly disingenious. And really, this isn't a place for political commentary, as it makes a newsgroup useless. So if you are going to flame someone, do so without stirring up political hornets. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 9 Nov 2004 17:10:47 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) wrote: >The current rule about a minion having to perform 2+ mandatory >actions, says that the minion gets stuck not being able to do >anything, regardless of what these 2 mandatory actions are. > So, basicaly even if both actions are the same action (allowed by >different copies of the same card in play) the vampire gets stuck Changing rules which affect 4 cards has no value. Here is the list of cards which create mandatory actions. Cards which create mandatory actions. 1 Chain of Command (must bleed) 2 The Embrace (must hunt) 3 Lunatic Eruption (must enter combat) 4 Shock Troops (must hunt) 5 Spirit Marionette (must bleed) 6 Thin-Blooded Seer (must hunt) 7 XTC-Laced Blood (must hunt) The only one that is truly impacted by the current rule is Lunatic Eruption, (unless you Spirit Marionette or Chain of Command a minion that cannot bleed your prey because of other cards played). If you want to spend 4 blood and 2 actions to create a blocker with an effect that is less useful than Sensory Deprivation and much more easily removed by anyone on the table, go for it. Build the deck to do this, and be my prey. There is no reason to change a simple and effective rule for this one extremely cornercase situation. It is for reason's like this that Paralyze was removed from the game. There is too little effect in the game for the effort required to know about the change. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<89cfp0dfeoldq6fe6...@4ax.com>... >> In message <opshgjtg...@news.chello.hu>, >> Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> mumbled something about: >> >> For an example of what it does, I refer you to rec.gambling.poker, where >> over 50% of all messages and posts are political rants and meaningless >> arguing. No, really. Go read rec.gambling.poker RIGHT NOW, and see >> just how worthless political discussions can make a newsgroup. > >completely agree, but what about offensive behaviours for no serious >reason like yours towards me ? can a behaviour like this ruin a group >if it is adopted by the majority of the users ? There was a serious reason; you don't respond to reasoned argument (a number of people were demonstrating this, trying to reason with you) ...you only respond to verbal clubs to the back of your head. So I applied one. I think behavior like yours is much more likely to ruin a group; namely, that of being a complete tool. >Finaly, i want to note that i have never made any political statement >in this group. I dare anyone who thinks otherwise to quote this >imaginary statement of mine and tell me why it is a political >statement and what it means. This pathetic statement is exactly what I would expect from a five-year-old caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He removes his empty hand, shows it, and says "But I didn't take a cookie!". His parents will spank him anyway, and they'll do it harder for telling such an atrocious lie. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <8v2gp0l31mimagffn...@4ax.com>, The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about: >There is no evidence that Derek is eligible to vote in the United >States. ...Or that he is registered to vote in his current county of residence. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<06jdp09dbqsua5qlv...@4ax.com>... >> I have already contributed more to this game than you or many people >> here will ever know, ...and I have certainly contributed more than you >> yourself ever will. Now go make your list, come back, and we'll see if >> you can finally understand. > >Just because you made it to The Lasombra's "Who is Who" does not mean >that you have contributed shit for Vtes. If you want to make a point >speak with facts. Not all facts are available for public disclosure. Some will never be available to a person like you. Some things you wouldn't understand unless you were there. For example, you have only been playing for two years, and have no knowledge of what it was like to try to revive a game from the dead -- a game that had zero support from its publisher and manufacturer -- or to continue to support that game in hopes that it might BE revived, with no guarantees, no nothing... just the cards that were printed. >> I personally see you as just a spoiled-brat kid who doesn't have any >> real comprehension of the effort or thought process required to produce >> a quality game; instead, you want to stomp your foot and cry big tears >> when you don't get your way. >> >> Don't like it when I treat you like a child? Don't act like one. > >that is just your personal opinion based on your need to feel >superior. No, it's based on the fact that you're acting like a child. Do you really think so many are against you simply because some of them are my friends? You're a fool. My friends are the first ones to tell me when they don't agree with me, or when they think i'm being stupid... because they ARE my friends. >It is you who are the spoiled-brat kid. I am 26 and able to think and >behave like a 26 years old human being. I refer you to my cookie-jar analogy in a previous post. Statements like you made are the hallmark of a five-year-old mentality, as is the refusal to accept the voice of authority (the net.rep) when he gives you an official ruling, explanation, and RE-explanation... instead choosing to babble about "you find it silly". Hey, here's one for you, kid: nobody cares what you do or don't find silly, they care about the logic behind the rules and the rulings themselves. That logic was explained repeatedly, yet you refused to accept it, instead INSISTING that you were right; the act of a spoiled child. >You are 33, but you think and behave like a teenager. Plus, your math is faulty. Amusing. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c6a50f81.0411...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: >Anyway, now that we have become very good friends, how about a trade ? My collection is not available for sale or trade. I will dispose of it when and where I choose, under my own terms. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 14 Nov 2004 18:00:15 -0800, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote: > So please spare the "fucking country" stuff and show some respect, > as i show for your country. You should take it as a compliment. I mean, everyone would like to live in a fucking country, right? Pure, wild sex from dusk till dawn each and every day... ;) Isn't that paradise? -- Bye, Daneel

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: >Just because you made it to The Lasombra's "Who is Who" does not mean >that you have contributed shit for Vtes. If you want to make a point >speak with facts. No, the fact that Derek has contributed more than most of us to V:TES means that he has contributed to V:TES. And that's leaving out anything that might be hidden or unknown. Derek has contributed a HUGE amount. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though! EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: >> However, when you seem to have a lot of trouble understanding what the >> current rules mean, as people are repeatedly having to explain them to >> you, campaigning for change seems to be foolhardy at best. >> > >just this rule. My comprehension of the rules is almost complete. It's this rule you want to change that you clearly didn't understand. You need to understand it before you can understand the ramifications of changing it. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:02:32 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Some things you wouldn't understand unless you were there. For example, > you have only been playing for two years, and have no knowledge of what > it was like to try to revive a game from the dead -- a game that had > zero support from its publisher and manufacturer -- or to continue to > support that game in hopes that it might BE revived, with no guarantees, > no nothing... just the cards that were printed. On a sidenote, I was most enamoured with VTES during the years of its abandonement. [rant] Because the game was so complex that you could have an almost infinite number of variations for every clan, and every deck type. Because if something does not change, noone can be disappointed by the change (though the lack of change can admittedly disappoint some folks - but in VTES's case the replayability was exceptional to begin with). So what happened since WW took over? - Back then our playgroup was tight and had like 10 people. Now it is everything but tight and has like a hundred, and I see new faces every gaming occasion. (frankly, it's not even a playgroup anymore) - Back then a tournament had like 20 or so participants and we never knew about any player registry or rating something. Now our tournaments have like 50+ every time (70+ not being uncommon), making it irratinally hard to make the finals. - Back then we had the ugly Jyhad look and the colorful, yet still gothic- feel VTES look. Since (almost) everything that was printed in Jyhad was also printed in VTES, and since some people did not mind playing with the ugly cards, one could easily attain a harmonious aesthetic collection. Now we have ugly new cards, which do pose a problem, as more and more cards are not available in the pleasant VTES layouts. When I look at a "new look" hand, I feel disillusioned and consider it bland;but when I look at a mixed hand, I risk nausea. - Back then we had no crypt card groups. Now we have 4 and there may be more coming. etc.; I could go on and list all changes. So all in all, was the abandonment that bleak? I don't think so. White Wolf brought some very interesting rules and changes but for me the price is a tad bit too high. I might sound destructive, but I think that the game should have died again right after Bloodlines. A few years ago White Wolf was one of my favourite RPG publishing corporations. They had VtM, and VTES was based on that, plus their other gamelines were ingenious as well (Mage, Changeling, Wraith...). I still have shelves full of their old stuff. Then they take back VTES and release some very good expansions trying to hook the people onto the game again. Sabbat War was a success. It would have been fair to release an expansion with the new look and with the grouping rule to say "this is where we're going", but they didn't have the balls for that. Kind of like White Wolf saying "After Gehenna, we'll never release anything for *cough* this *cough* World of Darkness." Talk about fall from grace. [/rant] So, Derek, if you had a hand in any of this, then feel ashamed with the rest of those responsible. -- Bye, Daneel

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<0m5gp01fec8doc2t5...@4ax.com>... > On 9 Nov 2004 17:10:47 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) > wrote: > > >The current rule about a minion having to perform 2+ mandatory > >actions, says that the minion gets stuck not being able to do > >anything, regardless of what these 2 mandatory actions are. > > > So, basicaly even if both actions are the same action (allowed by > >different copies of the same card in play) the vampire gets stuck > > > Changing rules which affect 4 cards has no value. > > Here is the list of cards which create mandatory actions. > > Cards which create mandatory actions. > > 1 Chain of Command (must bleed) > 2 The Embrace (must hunt) > 3 Lunatic Eruption (must enter combat) > 4 Shock Troops (must hunt) > 5 Spirit Marionette (must bleed) > 6 Thin-Blooded Seer (must hunt) > 7 XTC-Laced Blood (must hunt) > > > The only one that is truly impacted by the current rule is Lunatic > Eruption, (unless you Spirit Marionette or Chain of Command a minion > that cannot bleed your prey because of other cards played). > > If you want to spend 4 blood and 2 actions to create a blocker with an > effect that is less useful than Sensory Deprivation and much more > easily removed by anyone on the table, go for it. > > Build the deck to do this, and be my prey. > i agree with that, but you don't build the deck around that. You just have the option to put a 2nd LE to each of your prey's minions, when it is just you and him i the game to get them stuck. Instead of removing them in order not to beat the hell out of them.

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:38:12 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Daneel wrote: >> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:36:55 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> >>> No, seriously. >>> >>> Take the political stuff elsewhere. >>> >>> And leave it there when you get it there. >> >> That's why I generally disapprove of off-topicness. But some people >> think that there is such a thing as a "VTES community" and feel the >> necessity to share their thoughts or feelings on non-related topics. >> Politics will be among those thoughts. > > ? > > Sorry, I don't understand where you're going with that. That is apparent from your response. > If you're agreeing, then why add to the noise? - to concur - to elaborate - to differentiate - to reciprocate > If you're disagreeing, say so. But do it in email. Or on dev.null Your remark has been noted. -- Bye, Daneel

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<o7Rld.20018$7i4....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > Daneel wrote: > > On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:36:55 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > > >> No, seriously. > >> > >> Take the political stuff elsewhere. > >> > >> And leave it there when you get it there. > > > > > > That's why I generally disapprove of off-topicness. But some people > > think that there is such a thing as a "VTES community" and feel the > > necessity to share their thoughts or feelings on non-related topics. > > Politics will be among those thoughts. > > ? > > Sorry, I don't understand where you're going with that. > > If you're agreeing, then why add to the noise? > > If you're disagreeing, say so. But do it in email. Or on dev.null I honestly agree. I just wish the matter closed and the flames between me and Derek extinguished.

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<8v2gp0l31mimagffn...@4ax.com>... > On 14 Nov 2004 17:19:39 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) > wrote: > > >if you want to help Derek and Zealot as well, then you may want to > >reply to their postings, in which they use offensive language to > >offend me and they did that first, with the Gentleman's FAQ. But of > >course you would never do that to a friend of yours, right ? > > I have spoken with them in person. > > They are well aware of the behavior seen as useful. > > They are also aware of how their behavior is unhelpful. > ok, fair enough. Thanks. > If you would like to talk about the game, please do so. > That's what i want. > Personal attacks are getting you nowhere. > yeah, i know. I really want all these to end now. > There is no evidence that Derek is eligible to vote in the United > States. > I don't understand what you mean by that, if you want explain, if not no problem. I just predicted that Derek voted for Bush, because from what i know, most of Georgia did. So chances were on my side for a prediction like this. ----------------- > > ... and now for something completely different. > > http://www.thelasombra.com/variants/story_time.txt > > > Alternate tourney format (non sanctioned): > > In some way, encourage/force players to use the Clan Novel characters > in their crypts. Throw out extra Victory Points for re-enacting > scenes from the novels. > > Interesting fun idea. Would like to discuss it in another appropriate thread if someone creates one.

> > Ok. While I'm loathe to get involved here, really, now you are just being a > wank. > > The statement of "I bet you voted for Bush", or whatever, is a very clear > political statement, atributing whatever bothered you about Derek with > behavior that would lead to voting for Bush. The political commentary is in > no way thinly veiled. > i just predicted that Derek voted for Bush, because he is from Georgia and from what i know (correct me if i am wrong) the majority of Georgia voted for Bush. It was just a strategic maneuver in the "war" between me and Derek that he started (in my opinion). So, by saying what i have said, i gave him something that he couldn't deny or confirm and something that he wasn't really sure what it meant. I never intented to make a political statement nor i ever did one. Anyway, i want to believe that all this "fighting" has now come to an end and thus we can leave this thread to die and talk about vtes in other ones. > Mind you, I'm not continuing this political commentary here, I'm just > pointing out that trying to claim that there was none is wildly > disingenious. > well if you think that me claiming that i have never made a political statement makes me disingenious, then you are welcome to believe so. It is not in my intentions to start a whole discussion to convince you. You either want to believe me or you don't. You are welcome to do any of these things. > And really, this isn't a place for political commentary, as it makes a > newsgroup useless. So if you are going to flame someone, do so without > stirring up political hornets. > > i agree.

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<0m5gp01fec8doc2t5...@4ax.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] as you can see in another thread of mine, i finaly agreed with this. However don't underestimate the use of this thing, as you don't have to build a deck around an idea like this. But, when you are left with only one other meth in the game (who has LE on all of his minions), you can simply put another LE on each minion to make them stuck. (provided that he is not playing with many minions). Then, as you say, you have created a blocker that cannot act and you only need a Gambit Accepted with no need to do anything else. Just sit back and drain him of his pool. Concerning the blood cost of the LE, it is not that much, you can get the required blood by just one hunt with Coyote in play. note: i don't want to continue this discussion, as i have finaly agreed with you. I just made some additional comments.

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes: > Here is the list of cards which create mandatory actions. > > Cards which create mandatory actions. > > 1 Chain of Command (must bleed) > 2 The Embrace (must hunt) > 3 Lunatic Eruption (must enter combat) > 4 Shock Troops (must hunt) > 5 Spirit Marionette (must bleed) > 6 Thin-Blooded Seer (must hunt) > 7 XTC-Laced Blood (must hunt) Nitpick: 8 Cry Wolf (must enter combat) 9 Triole's Revenge (must hunt) But it's easy to see why you forgot this last card. Requires a Brujah, can only target a Ventrue. Bleagh. *And* they misspelled Troile. -- hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience, iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey

Jyhad_addict wrote: > > > i just predicted that Derek voted for Bush, because he is from > Georgia and from what i know (correct me if i am wrong) the majority > of Georgia voted for Bush. > It was just a strategic maneuver in the "war" between me and Derek > that he started (in my opinion). So, by saying what i have said, i > gave him something that he couldn't deny or confirm and something that > he wasn't really sure what it meant. > I never intented to make a political statement nor i ever did one. > bullshit and if you are honest you would admit that you meant something along this lines: derek is a ? and president bush is also a ? therefore derek must have voted for president bush. even your reasoning is faulty since taking into account the voter turnout (i do not know the exact numbers for georgia) afaik derek was most likley a non voter (going by probabilities) your statement was political so accept your your slap by LSJ (he also slapped Norm, nobody is defending him, but since he is not complaining nobody needs to tell him that what he wrote was against the charta of this newsgroup) it愀 a shame that this personal flaming occurs in this newsgroup. because if you were as fortunate as i was and had the chance to meet norm and derek in person, you would know both are smart and nice persons and all you悲 say would be: forget our argument lets have beer ;-)) stefan

"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message news:c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com... > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<XbJld.902812$Gx4.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > > No, seriously. > > > > Take the political stuff elsewhere. > > > > And leave it there when you get it there. > > seriously, never intented to make a political statement and never made > any. > seriously, if you think that me believing that Derek Ray voted for > Bush > is a political statement of any kind, then please explain to me why > you think such a thing. You'll note that my statement didn't quote anyone or call anyone by name. "voted for Bush", in almost any context in November 2004, equals politics. If you refer to some apolitical vote for some apolitical Bush, please explain. In Email. Not to this Newsgroup. NOT TO THIS NEWSGROUP. > Again, if you are curious what reasons made me > believe that Derek voted for Bush, just ask me. Seriously. Take the political stuff elsewhere. This is my last post on the subject this year. Any (non-forged) post following up to this post (in any manner), or any (non-forged) post posted after 12:01 am EST (GMT-0500) Tue Nov 16, 2004 containing any political reference (including "not me" and "I agree") will earn the poster the inaugural spot in my brand new killfile. A shame, really. I dislike killfiles. Too medieval. So please, everyone, as a personal favor to me, leave the political stuff, and all OT posts, really, where they belong. > seriously, if you think that mentioning the first 11 lyrics of > Megadeth's song "captive honor" is a political statement of any kind, > please explain to me why. If it contains the phrase "voted for Bush", then there you go. If it doesn't, then the invocation is a non sequitur. But again -- that isn't the point. The point is that it doesn't belong here. And, unlike most OT drivel, the political OT drivel leads to far too much noise. For proof: see this thread. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<24egp0hvv3nuejkhs...@4ax.com>... > In message <c6a50f81.0411...@posting.google.com>, > geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: > > >Anyway, now that we have become very good friends, how about a trade ? > > My collection is not available for sale or trade. > I will dispose of it when and where I choose, under my own terms. > no problem, i just made you an honest suggestion. No need to start getting wild again.

In message <opshh0hb...@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> mumbled something about: >On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:02:32 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Some things you wouldn't understand unless you were there. For example, >> you have only been playing for two years, and have no knowledge of what >> it was like to try to revive a game from the dead -- a game that had >> zero support from its publisher and manufacturer -- or to continue to >> support that game in hopes that it might BE revived, with no guarantees, >> no nothing... just the cards that were printed. > >On a sidenote, I was most enamoured with VTES during the years of its >abandonement. I realize that some folks are stuck in a rut and scared of change. Sorry to hear you're one of those closed-minded souls. >Because the game was so complex that you could have an almost infinite >number of variations for every clan, and every deck type. Because if Leaving aside the patently-falseness of the "infinite number of variations" statement... adding cards made it less complex how, exactly? >something does not change, noone can be disappointed by the change (though >the lack of change can admittedly disappoint some folks - but in VTES's >case the replayability was exceptional to begin with). There were a number of problems with the game as it existed -- not the least of which being that if you wanted a playable game, you had to use a whole bunch of cards that didn't do what they said on the card. Some cards were still overpowered (Majesty inferior). Some clans were unplayable (Assamites) in a tournament format. Some deckstyles were unplayable ([name] multi-Rush) due to lack of vampires and cards. Many people didn't have the cards they needed -- Freak Drive was insanely rare, and went for a ridiculous amount of money. Because of White Wolf's involvement, think of how many more people have just this single card. I could go on and on, but just start with the list of Sabbat rares and Sabbat vamps, and keep going. >So what happened since WW took over? >- Back then our playgroup was tight and had like 10 people. Now it is >everything but tight and has like a hundred, and I see new faces every >gaming occasion. (frankly, it's not even a playgroup anymore) In other words, you've had a massive influx of new players, increasing the variety of people you play with and improving the gaming experience for most of them enormously. That sounds awesome, dude. I wish our 10 people could turn into 100. I'm pretty sure most people feel the same way. >- Back then a tournament had like 20 or so participants and we never knew >about any player registry or rating something. Now our tournaments have >like 50+ every time (70+ not being uncommon), making it irratinally hard >to make the finals. I have already addressed the issues with 70+ person tournaments in another post. However, what you're REALLY saying here is "the large number of people who joined the game have made it hard for me to win, because some of them are good". Excellent! I think it's great that new players are sticking around long enough to really get into things, to really become skilled at the game. >- Back then we had the ugly Jyhad look and the colorful, yet still gothic- >feel VTES look. Since (almost) everything that was printed in Jyhad was >also printed in VTES, and since some people did not mind playing with the Except that it was relatively difficult to obtain V:TES-backed cards (of the rares and uncommons you wanted), and many people flat-out refused to play with mixed-back cards (I refer you to The Doctor from recent months past). It was possible to cheat, and I'm sure some people did -- such that we had to have elaborately worded tournament rules about "mixed libraries". So, so untidy. >ugly cards, one could easily attain a harmonious aesthetic collection. Now >we have ugly new cards, which do pose a problem, as more and more cards In your opinion. Many people are pleased with the newest layout. >are not available in the pleasant VTES layouts. When I look at a "new look" >hand, I feel disillusioned and consider it bland;but when I look at a mixed >hand, I risk nausea. I suggest a Dramamine before play, if something so insignificant bothers you so. >- Back then we had no crypt card groups. Now we have 4 and there may be >more coming. Again, more variety to the game. Toreador with Fortitude. Malks that can do more than just bleed. Nosferatu that can vote -- and I mean REALLY vote, not just Minion Tap/5th-Tradition their four titles out and hope nobody else is playing titles as well. !Nosferatu that can be an intercept wall. Not to mention Bloodlines, of course, and all the new goodness THAT brought to the game. >So all in all, was the abandonment that bleak? I don't think so. White Wolf >brought some very interesting rules and changes but for me the price is a >tad bit too high. I might sound destructive, but I think that the game >should have died again right after Bloodlines. Sorry to hear you think that. Fortunately, there seem to be about 99 other people in your group who don't agree with you, and for them, I hope they have a great time playing. You, I think, should quit if you hate it so much. Bye! >So, Derek, if you had a hand in any of this, then feel ashamed with the >rest of those responsible. I will never feel ashamed for helping to produce so much fun for so many new players, and so many older players who faithfully stuck with the game through the abandoned years -- to give them new toys, fresh copies of old toys to play with, and a chance to really PLAY. The game was stultifying back then; what you think of as infinite variety was in reality extremely limited. Seriously, when you have to resort to something as complex and fragile as the Malk OOT Rush deck to come up with something new, don't you see the problem? Posts like this actually make me proud -- because while you may be a closed-minded, ignorant stick-in-the-mud, so many others AREN'T, and it's those others that are really playing and enjoying the game. You've surely heard the old adage "You can't please everybody", right? Looks like you get to be the not-pleased one this time around. Better luck next time, eh? [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<2mcgp0doh2h0l4n2e...@4ax.com>... > In message <8v2gp0l31mimagffn...@4ax.com>, > The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about: > > >There is no evidence that Derek is eligible to vote in the United > >States. > > ...Or that he is registered to vote in his current county of residence. > And there is no evidence that Derek is not a werewolf, but i believe he is a man, right ? This kind of arguments originate from ancient Greece's sophists, who had the ability through such tricky arguments to convince that the black is white and the other way around. Their time has passed, so please give me a break 'cause i am not buying. so do you mean to say that this is not a fact and that i was wrong ? i ask, because i suspect that i am right. If i am wrong, let me know. i have no reason not to believe you if you say such a thing.

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<utcgp01saiiavkqv2...@4ax.com>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: > > > Not all facts are available for public disclosure. > Some will never be available to a person like you. > Yeah, sure. I understand now why you can't talk about these facts, you were on a secret assignment to save V:tes and you have... congrats... > Some things you wouldn't understand unless you were there. For example, > you have only been playing for two years, and have no knowledge of what > it was like to try to revive a game from the dead -- a game that had > zero support from its publisher and manufacturer -- or to continue to > support that game in hopes that it might BE revived, with no guarantees, > no nothing... just the cards that were printed. > you and many others, among them my friends here in Greece, where 1 vtes booster is sold for 3,7euro ($4,66). Vtes boosters were not even sold in the city i live in, until i had started to buy and now 2 stores sell them. So, cut the crap, you are not the only one who contributed to vtes resurection. > > No, it's based on the fact that you're acting like a child. > no it is based on the facts imagined by your unimaginative brain. > Do you really think so many are against you simply because some of them > are my friends? You're a fool. My friends are the first ones to tell > me when they don't agree with me, or when they think i'm being stupid... > because they ARE my friends. > No, but your friends criticized me when i used unproper language, but they didn't do the same for you in public. I got a confirmation from The Lasombra that he has spoken with you (and xzealot) in private and told you that what you and i were doing is bad for the group, so i consider this subject a closed one. Additionaly, i didn't say that because there were some people who disagreed with me, actualy i post in this group to discuss. There were people who disagreed with me on the LE subject, but it was just you that personaly offended me for no serious reason. > > I refer you to my cookie-jar analogy in a previous post. Statements > like you made are the hallmark of a five-year-old mentality, as is the > refusal to accept the voice of authority (the net.rep) when he gives you > an official ruling, explanation, and RE-explanation... instead choosing > to babble about "you find it silly". > it takes one to know one. i can go on discussing one matter, providing additional arguments as long as i feel it is appropriate. If LSJ had fed up with me (by the time you burst in flames against me and offended me) he would have stopped answering my questions. But he didn't do such a thing. I quote him: "My time here is part of the duties as Net.Rep., so it is yours to spend (at least as long as I'm answering. If I stop answering a given thread, you'll know that you're overdrawn at the LSJ Time Bank :-)" So, as you can understand you had no right to offend me, basing your act on your estimation that my tenacity to support my case was out of line. LSJ had the authority and the free will to tell me to shut up, he wasn't in need of your "divine" intervention. Finaly, the subject ended with me agreeing with him, after he had explained to me some things i wasn't aware of. So, cut the crap about my tenacity on that subject. As i wasn't refusing LSJ's ruling, i was discussing and discussing has nothing to do with agreeing, but it has everything to do with disagreeing. When you agree is the end of discussion and that is what finaly happened. So please stop trying to justify your behaviour, 'cause you'll dwelve deeper in a discussion that is not in your best interest. > Hey, here's one for you, kid: nobody cares what you do or don't find > silly, they care about the logic behind the rules and the rulings > themselves. That logic was explained repeatedly, yet you refused to > accept it, instead INSISTING that you were right; the act of a spoiled > child. > wrong, i discussed. my answer above answers your fabricated false arguments. additionaly, i am happy that you don't care about what i do, i don't want you saying lies about me all the time. > >You are 33, but you think and behave like a teenager. > > Plus, your math is faulty. Amusing. > i am glad that i am able to amuse you... I am also glad that in Lasombra's "Who is Who" profile of yours, you say the following: "Sometimes I argue because I feel strongly about a point; other times I will play devil's advocate, or simply debate because a point needs debating" so, what is the case with me ? do you by any chance play the devil himself this time ? Finaly, one strange thing is that i agree with your following point of view: "I, along with several others, was one of the primary proponents of the "no card is worthless" theory, often taking my latest deck idea from what someone had said sucked the week before on the newsgroup" Though i haven't been able to find a realistic use for "Gird minions" and i consider one as realistic if it does not contain a million "if".

> > >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> stuttered something about: > >completely agree, but what about offensive behaviours for no serious > >reason like yours towards me ? can a behaviour like this ruin a group > >if it is adopted by the majority of the users ? > > There was a serious reason; you don't respond to reasoned argument (a > number of people were demonstrating this, trying to reason with you) > ...you only respond to verbal clubs to the back of your head. So I > applied one. > and who are you to make such a thing ? the google police ? you had no right to offend me and there was no serious reason. You ridicul yourself trying to convince me that there was a serious reason to offend me. > I think behavior like yours is much more likely to ruin a group; namely, > that of being a complete tool. > you think wrong. time will show who is right... > > This pathetic statement is exactly what I would expect from a > five-year-old caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He removes his > empty hand, shows it, and says "But I didn't take a cookie!". > i dare you to quote my statement and explain what exactly i stated. Do this or quit bitching.

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:38:49 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Because the game was so complex that you could have an almost infinite >> number of variations for every clan, and every deck type. Because if > > Leaving aside the patently-falseness of the "infinite number of > variations" statement... adding cards made it less complex how, exactly? I didn't actually _say_ it made the game any less complex. More cards means more options. But, more readily available power cards and more "officially supported" deck concepts means more powerful decks. More powerful decks -> less room for odd concepts. Meaning a certain reduction in viable deck strategies. In reality for VTES the options provided by more cards outweigh the reduction due to the aforementioned effect. The game clearly has more options now than it had 5 years ago (even a bit too many for my taste; I'm feeling overwhealmed by the rapid succession of expansions). Yet even when the game was "dead" I had no trouble assembling a new and intriguing deck every week. Nor did any other players I knew. For years. > There were a number of problems with the game as it existed -- not the > least of which being that if you wanted a playable game, you had to use > a whole bunch of cards that didn't do what they said on the card. Yes. > Some cards were still overpowered (Majesty inferior). > Some clans were unplayable (Assamites) in a tournament format. > Some deckstyles were unplayable ([name] multi-Rush) due to lack of > vampires and cards. Some cards are still overpowered (Succubus Club, Protect). The Assamites still basically suck at tournaments (though I made the finals with them once). Some deckstyles are getting harder and harder to play (like, a monoclan Sabbat G2-G3 deck with matching crypt card layouts). > Many people didn't have the cards they needed -- Freak Drive was > insanely rare, and went for a ridiculous amount of money. Because of > White Wolf's involvement, think of how many more people have just this > single card. I could go on and on, but just start with the list of > Sabbat rares and Sabbat vamps, and keep going. All because some rarities were mixed up (like Immortal Grapple, horrible as a rare, would have almost been fine as an UC, but then Sabbat sold out, didn't it). I agree that being able to get the cards needed to play is a clear benefit of having a publisher for the game. >> So what happened since WW took over? >> - Back then our playgroup was tight and had like 10 people. Now it is >> everything but tight and has like a hundred, and I see new faces every >> gaming occasion. (frankly, it's not even a playgroup anymore) > > In other words, you've had a massive influx of new players, increasing > the variety of people you play with and improving the gaming experience > for most of them enormously. > > That sounds awesome, dude. I wish our 10 people could turn into 100. > I'm pretty sure most people feel the same way. Yeah, well you're kind of right. It is a positive. Though new players do not always offer the same level of challenge/excitement as veterans do. I mean, experience alone is extremely important. Some new players I meet are outright ingenious, but most of them have no more talent than I did some 8 years ago, when I started playing. I'm sorry, but I generally prefer to play with more capable (experienced/talented) players. >> - Back then a tournament had like 20 or so participants and we never >> knew >> about any player registry or rating something. Now our tournaments have >> like 50+ every time (70+ not being uncommon), making it irratinally hard >> to make the finals. > > I have already addressed the issues with 70+ person tournaments in > another post. However, what you're REALLY saying here is "the large > number of people who joined the game have made it hard for me to win, > because some of them are good". Nay. 4 "bad" players can easily randomize the outcome of a table. Or, seating 5 "bad" players together will give the same 5 VPs as seating 5 veterans together. Go figure. It's numbers. >> - Back then we had the ugly Jyhad look and the colorful, yet still >> gothic- >> feel VTES look. Since (almost) everything that was printed in Jyhad was >> also printed in VTES, and since some people did not mind playing with >> the > > Except that it was relatively difficult to obtain V:TES-backed cards (of > the rares and uncommons you wanted), and many people flat-out refused to I did not perceive that phenomenon. In my local environment VTES was available plentiful (and Jyhad was kind of rarer). > play with mixed-back cards (I refer you to The Doctor from recent months > past). It was possible to cheat, and I'm sure some people did -- such > that we had to have elaborately worded tournament rules about "mixed > libraries". So, so untidy. Note that the possibility is not non-existant today. Jyhad-backed cards are still playable AFAIK. >> ugly cards, one could easily attain a harmonious aesthetic collection. >> Now >> we have ugly new cards, which do pose a problem, as more and more cards > > In your opinion. Many people are pleased with the newest layout. In your opinion. And many are not pleased with it at all. How about a poll? (kidding) Some people may think that the old layout is better. Some people may think the new is better. But few will think that mixing the two is any good. The best opinion will be "doesn't matter". Think about it. >> are not available in the pleasant VTES layouts. When I look at a "new >> look" >> hand, I feel disillusioned and consider it bland;but when I look at a >> mixed >> hand, I risk nausea. > > I suggest a Dramamine before play, if something so insignificant bothers > you so. Why do you have art on the cards? You could simply have big caps names and a textbox. Maybe just a set of large icons. The art is there to add to the mood and flavor. So is the layout, backgrounds, etc. >> - Back then we had no crypt card groups. Now we have 4 and there may be >> more coming. > > Again, more variety to the game. Toreador with Fortitude. Malks that > can do more than just bleed. Nosferatu that can vote -- and I mean > REALLY vote, not just Minion Tap/5th-Tradition their four titles out and > hope nobody else is playing titles as well. !Nosferatu that can be an > intercept wall. Not to mention Bloodlines, of course, and all the new > goodness THAT brought to the game. Yes, bloodlines is great. The other stuff - dunno. I'm really not that much impressed. I mean, Nossies may get more cards to vote, but G2-G3 Ventrue virtually have OBF as an in-clan, etc. It's kind of like upping the stakes for all, but the leaders remain. >> So all in all, was the abandonment that bleak? I don't think so. White >> Wolf >> brought some very interesting rules and changes but for me the price is >> a >> tad bit too high. I might sound destructive, but I think that the game >> should have died again right after Bloodlines. > > Sorry to hear you think that. Fortunately, there seem to be about 99 > other people in your group who don't agree with you, and for them, I > hope they have a great time playing. Yeah, you must've conducted a poll. ;) Were you to check our local boards, you'd see that almost everyone is displeased with the new layout in one way or another. The prime reason is having to mix the two types. > You, I think, should quit if you hate it so much. Bye! (Un)fortunately, VTES still remains one of the best and most balanced multiplayer CCGs. So if I want to play the game because it has good rules, I must tolerate the newfound lack of aesthetics. A lot of old timers I knew quit (partly) because of this issue. I occasionally stop playing for a while when I'm fed up. I think this could be better. ;( >> So, Derek, if you had a hand in any of this, then feel ashamed with the >> rest of those responsible. > > I will never feel ashamed for helping to produce so much fun for so many > new players, and so many older players who faithfully stuck with the > game through the abandoned years -- to give them new toys, fresh copies > of old toys to play with, and a chance to really PLAY. The game was The majority of old players did not need or desire a new layout. > stultifying back then; what you think of as infinite variety was in > reality extremely limited. Seriously, when you have to resort to > something as complex and fragile as the Malk OOT Rush deck to come up > with something new, don't you see the problem? Yes. Now we have Brinksmanship as a completely new ousting mechanism (along with the Slaughterhouse "Millstones" that so many players hate). For which you still need Master Cards and some way to pass Politics. > Posts like this actually make me proud -- because while you may be a > closed-minded, ignorant stick-in-the-mud, so many others AREN'T, and > it's those others that are really playing and enjoying the game. You've It seems that you are basically saying that "Whoever does not like the game the way it is now is not important, and the game was designed for the people who like it this way." Flawless and undeniable logic... > surely heard the old adage "You can't please everybody", right? Looks > like you get to be the not-pleased one this time around. Better luck > next time, eh? Well, shucks, thinking about pleasing people could have been an issue before changing the layouts... ;) Now it's just rant material. I don't think any new cards will be printed with the old layouts. -- Bye, Daneel

On 15 Nov 2004 06:05:50 -0800, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote: > Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:<2mcgp0doh2h0l4n2e...@4ax.com>... >> In message <8v2gp0l31mimagffn...@4ax.com>, >> The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about: >> >> >There is no evidence that Derek is eligible to vote in the United >> >States. >> >> ...Or that he is registered to vote in his current county of residence. >> > > And there is no evidence that Derek is not a werewolf, but i believe > he is a man, right ? He can't be a werewolf, because werewolves have these big, hairy paws and sharp claws that make them unsuited to play with small cards. He wrote a program once assessing the usefulness of hand size increasing and discarding master cards, so I say he is probably either an alien or an AI. -- Bye, Daneel

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Daneel wrote: > So what happened since WW took over? > - Back then our playgroup was tight and had like 10 people. Now it is > everything but tight and has like a hundred, and I see new faces every > gaming occasion. (frankly, it's not even a playgroup anymore) > - Back then a tournament had like 20 or so participants and we never knew > about any player registry or rating something. Now our tournaments have > like 50+ every time (70+ not being uncommon), making it irratinally hard > to make the finals. I'm completely flabbergasted that you consider this to be a bad thing. 100 players in your playgroup? 50+ at every tournament? If you don't want all those players, please ship them to the US! Matt Morgan

"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote > Q: is my prediction of Derek voting for Bush a political statement ? Yes idiot. Votes are only taken: 1) During Politcal Actions 2) During referendums 3) For Bloodhunts and (4) selecting which pizza. So far you've referred to (1) and possibly (2) don't push your big mouth to go for (3). Personally I'm going for (4) at this point. Georgoe - take a hint.

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:23:01 -0600, Matthew T. Morgan <far...@eris.io.com> wrote: > I'm completely flabbergasted that you consider this to be a bad thing. > 100 players in your playgroup? 50+ at every tournament? > > If you don't want all those players, please ship them to the US! Sorry, I was trying to be objective. I listed the good and bad things in a mixed way. Having more players is GOOD! -- Bye, Daneel

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Daneel wrote: > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:23:01 -0600, Matthew T. Morgan > <far...@eris.io.com> wrote: > > > I'm completely flabbergasted that you consider this to be a bad thing. > > 100 players in your playgroup? 50+ at every tournament? > > > > If you don't want all those players, please ship them to the US! > > Sorry, I was trying to be objective. I listed the good and bad things in a > mixed way. You're forgiven. Now please ship those players over. Our regular night for play is Tuesdays, so if you could get them here by tomorrow night, that would be great. Thanks a bunch! Matt Morgan

Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:<opshh0hb...@news.chello.hu>... > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:02:32 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Some things you wouldn't understand unless you were there. For example, > > you have only been playing for two years, and have no knowledge of what > > it was like to try to revive a game from the dead -- a game that had > > zero support from its publisher and manufacturer -- or to continue to > > support that game in hopes that it might BE revived, with no guarantees, > > no nothing... just the cards that were printed. > > On a sidenote, I was most enamoured with VTES during the years of its > abandonement. ok, i was there from the beginning... buying jyhad box instead of M:TG's arabian nights booster box, b/c i liked this game better. i also played during the years of abandonment, as i'm sure most of our ancients did... that's why the game was revived: loyal player base. but though you're welcome to your opinion, it does seem like your feelings are exactly opposite to mine. > > [rant] > > Because the game was so complex that you could have an almost infinite and now, with more choices, it's even closer to "infinite." > number of variations for every clan, and every deck type. Because if > something does not change, noone can be disappointed by the change (though > the lack of change can admittedly disappoint some folks - but in VTES's > case the replayability was exceptional to begin with). > > So what happened since WW took over? more clans, more strategies, some well-intentioned card- and rule-fixing, and certainly, a small percentage of what might be seen as mistakes. what i think is a mistake might not be what you see as a mistake. but having a top-of-the-pyramid rule-guru has sorted out WAY more problems than it causes. perhaps you forget some of the probs associated with early vtes, including non-clarity, conflicting RTR rulings, and inaccessability (by comparison to today.) oh, and way more people into the game... promotion, which, in the abandonment years, was an unspoken heart-wish. > - Back then our playgroup was tight and had like 10 people. Now it is > everything but tight and has like a hundred, and I see new faces every > gaming occasion. (frankly, it's not even a playgroup anymore) > - Back then a tournament had like 20 or so participants and we never knew > about any player registry or rating something. Now our tournaments have > like 50+ every time (70+ not being uncommon), making it irratinally hard > to make the finals. oh, to have these problems... really, if you need a tightly-knit group, find 8-11 of these 70+ that also want that, and get together in a different dungeon than where everyone else is playing. enjoy libations and post-game activities of your choice. > - Back then we had the ugly Jyhad look and the colorful, yet still gothic- > feel VTES look. Since (almost) everything that was printed in Jyhad was > also printed in VTES, and since some people did not mind playing with the > ugly cards, one could easily attain a harmonious aesthetic collection. Now > we have ugly new cards, which do pose a problem, as more and more cards > are not available in the pleasant VTES layouts. When I look at a "new look" > hand, I feel disillusioned and consider it bland;but when I look at a mixed > hand, I risk nausea. > - Back then we had no crypt card groups. Now we have 4 and there may be > more coming. > etc.; I could go on and list all changes. don't mix card-groups. your aesthetics will be pleased. oh, wait, you must? why? answer: to create the deck you want/choose to make. you could make a perfectly good Jyhad-only deck, but you really want that powerbase montreal, and those 6 desert eagles in there... this complaint is disingenuous. i, too, think WW goofed when the background colors of the original clans/certain card types were changed. oops. ok. now i'm over it. it's not going to keep me from playing "classic" magic of the smith in the same deck with neighborhood watch commanders. > > So all in all, was the abandonment that bleak? I don't think so. White Wolf > brought some very interesting rules and changes but for me the price is a > tad bit too high. I might sound destructive, but I think that the game > should have died again right after Bloodlines. > > A few years ago White Wolf was one of my favourite RPG publishing > corporations. They had VtM, and VTES was based on that, plus their other > gamelines were ingenious as well (Mage, Changeling, Wraith...). I still > have shelves full of their old stuff. Then they take back VTES and release > some very good expansions trying to hook the people onto the game again. > Sabbat War was a success. It would have been fair to release an expansion > with the new look and with the grouping rule to say "this is where we're > going", but they didn't have the balls for that. Kind of like White Wolf > saying "After Gehenna, we'll never release anything for *cough* this > *cough* World of Darkness." > > Talk about fall from grace. > > [/rant] > > So, Derek, if you had a hand in any of this, then feel ashamed with the > rest of those responsible. i chose not to wait until the more "regular" posters got to you. you aren't "wrong" on an absolute scale. these are your opinions. but bothering to bait the whole company with words like shame and fall from grace, is just you, all about you. i've stirred shit with a stick often enough to realize that all you get out of it is a shitty stick. until time travel is possible, recalling the abandonment years with total devotion while finger-shaking at the last several years and the present (and the future) is pointless. host a CLASSIC night, where only jyhad/vtes1/ds and ah cards can be used. change the rules/texts back to then, and return to the innocence you seek. (haha) some thoughts from another old jyhadster -john sporemage

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote > > And there is no evidence that Derek is not a werewolf, but i believe > > he is a man, right ? > > He can't be a werewolf, because werewolves have these big, hairy paws and > sharp claws that make them unsuited to play with small cards. He wrote a > program once assessing the usefulness of hand size increasing and > discarding > master cards, so I say he is probably either an alien or an AI. Odds are alien, <gender unspecific>. AI's are soo temperamental Oh and evidence is he's not a werewolf in that werewolves are makebelieve in this universe and makebelieve beings have a hard time playing Jyhad effectively.

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:47:32 -0600, Matthew T. Morgan <far...@eris.io.com> wrote: > You're forgiven. Now please ship those players over. Our regular night > for play is Tuesdays, so if you could get them here by tomorrow night, > that would be great. Thanks a bunch! > > Matt Morgan ;) We're having the regular game night on wednesdays. So whenever you are in the region feel free to join us for a game. Or you could just come for the EC2005. Folks say Budapest is beautiful. (I'm biased, yes...) -- Bye, Daneel

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: >and who are you to make such a thing ? the google police ? You may wish to find out more about the medium you are using. Google are *not* Usenet. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though! EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.

On 15 Nov 2004 11:33:27 -0800, spinney99 <spore...@hotmail.com> wrote: > i chose not to wait until the more "regular" posters got to you. you > aren't "wrong" on an absolute scale. these are your opinions. but > bothering to bait the whole company with words like shame and fall > from grace, is just you, all about you. i've stirred shit with a > stick often enough to realize that all you get out of it is a shitty > stick. until time travel is possible, recalling the abandonment years > with total devotion while finger-shaking at the last several years and > the present (and the future) is pointless. I know. It's just this periodic outbreak. It is getting rarer and rarer though. Usually when I'm fed up I just skip for awhile, but sometimes there is this snap and I burst. I know nothing will change, it just feels good to assume, even for just as long as I'm writing a post, that we are talking about something our opinions really matter about. I'm not saying all WW is eeevil. In fact, from a logical POV they did far more good to the game than bad, even after Bloodlines. It's just my personal opinions, to which I guess I'm kind of entitled - and given this unmoderated board, I might as well disclose them. I might be right or wrong, in the general sense I kind of think it's sort of in-between. I think we can leave it at that. ;) -- Bye, Daneel

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Daneel wrote: > We're having the regular game night on wednesdays. So whenever you are in > the region feel free to join us for a game. Or you could just come for the > EC2005. Folks say Budapest is beautiful. (I'm biased, yes...) Unless I lose my job (improbable) or have a terrible time at the EC2004 (impossible!), there's a fair chance you'll see me at EC2005. Matt Morgan

h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid (Janne Hägglund) wrote in message news:<m3is87g...@nothung.homelinux.net>... > The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes: > > > Here is the list of cards which create mandatory actions. > > > > Cards which create mandatory actions. > > > > 1 Chain of Command (must bleed) > > 2 The Embrace (must hunt) > > 3 Lunatic Eruption (must enter combat) > > 4 Shock Troops (must hunt) > > 5 Spirit Marionette (must bleed) > > 6 Thin-Blooded Seer (must hunt) > > 7 XTC-Laced Blood (must hunt) > > Nitpick: > > 8 Cry Wolf (must enter combat) > 9 Triole's Revenge (must hunt) > > But it's easy to see why you forgot this last card. Requires a Brujah, can > only target a Ventrue. Bleagh. *And* they misspelled Troile. right, so Cry Wolf + LE = stuck

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<Yf0V5Gt0...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: > >> However, when you seem to have a lot of trouble understanding what the > >> current rules mean, as people are repeatedly having to explain them to > >> you, campaigning for change seems to be foolhardy at best. > >> > > > >just this rule. My comprehension of the rules is almost complete. > > It's this rule you want to change that you clearly didn't understand. > > You need to understand it before you can understand the ramifications of > changing it. yeah, so what. I now fully understand the rule. The rule that says: cry wolf + LE = stuck LE + LE = stuck

Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:<opshhyey...@news.chello.hu>... > On 14 Nov 2004 18:00:15 -0800, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote: > > > So please spare the "fucking country" stuff and show some respect, > > as i show for your country. > > You should take it as a compliment. > > I mean, everyone would like to live in a fucking country, right? Pure, > wild sex from dusk till dawn each and every day... ;) > > Isn't that paradise? hahaha, you are right. So, do you know where a country like this is on the map ?

Stefan Ferenci <a95+NO+58+NO+60no@SP+.unet.univie.+AM+.ac.at> wrote in message news:<41989d70$0$12646$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... > Jyhad_addict wrote: > > > > it愀 a shame that this personal flaming occurs in this newsgroup. > because if you were as fortunate as i was and had the chance to meet > norm and derek in person, you would know both are smart and nice persons > and all you悲 say would be: forget our argument lets have beer ;-)) > > stefan i agree, but this is up to them and not me. So, time will show if there are indeed such nice persons.

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<jfMb58uU...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: > >Just because you made it to The Lasombra's "Who is Who" does not mean > >that you have contributed shit for Vtes. If you want to make a point > >speak with facts. > > No, the fact that Derek has contributed more than most of us to V:TES > means that he has contributed to V:TES. > > And that's leaving out anything that might be hidden or unknown. Derek > has contributed a HUGE amount. maybe, but he still needs to learn how to behave, as he was first to offend me. Anyway, i am really bored of continuing this thread. Time will show who is right or wrong. Who wants to discuss vtes and who likes to go on flaming.

> Why do you have art on the cards? You could simply have big caps names > and a textbox. > > Maybe just a set of large icons. > > The art is there to add to the mood and flavor. So is the layout, > backgrounds, etc. The reason for art is so that the cards can be identified quicker. The human eye/mind identifies with pictures quicker and easier than it does with text. Granted, mood and flavour are part of the reason, because playing with text boxes would be bland, but the primary reason is identification. --> J

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<utcgp01saiiavkqv2...@4ax.com>... >> In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, >> geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: >> >> Not all facts are available for public disclosure. >> Some will never be available to a person like you. > >Yeah, sure. I understand now why you can't talk about these facts, you >were on a secret assignment to save V:tes and you have... congrats... Alternately, perhaps I just choose not to go into detail about my life to you. You know you're not entitled to know everything, right? >> Some things you wouldn't understand unless you were there. For example, >> you have only been playing for two years, and have no knowledge of what >> it was like to try to revive a game from the dead -- a game that had >> zero support from its publisher and manufacturer -- or to continue to >> support that game in hopes that it might BE revived, with no guarantees, >> no nothing... just the cards that were printed. > > you and many others, among them my friends here in Greece, where 1 >vtes booster is sold for 3,7euro ($4,66). Vtes boosters were not even >sold in the city i live in, until i had started to buy and now 2 >stores sell them. So, cut the crap, you are not the only one who >contributed to vtes resurection. Thank you for acknowledging my contribution, and thank you for agreeing that you weren't there and have no perception. >> Do you really think so many are against you simply because some of them >> are my friends? You're a fool. My friends are the first ones to tell >> me when they don't agree with me, or when they think i'm being stupid... >> because they ARE my friends. > > No, but your friends criticized me when i used unproper language, >but they didn't do the same for you in public. I got a confirmation >from The Lasombra that he has spoken with you (and xzealot) in private >and told you that what you and i were doing is bad for the group, so i >consider this subject a closed one. *snort* I don't think you read very closely, but I already knew that. Perhaps you should go back and read again. > Additionaly, i didn't say that because there were some people who >disagreed with me, actualy i post in this group to discuss. There were >people who disagreed with me on the LE subject, but it was just you >that personaly offended me for no serious reason. I refer you to my previous reasons. You're STILL being a tool, and so you keep hearing about it. >> I refer you to my cookie-jar analogy in a previous post. Statements >> like you made are the hallmark of a five-year-old mentality, as is the >> refusal to accept the voice of authority (the net.rep) when he gives you >> an official ruling, explanation, and RE-explanation... instead choosing >> to babble about "you find it silly". > > i can go on discussing one matter, providing additional arguments as >long as i feel it is appropriate. If LSJ had fed up with me (by the >time you burst in flames against me and offended me) he would have >stopped answering my questions. But he didn't do such a thing. I quote >him: George, I'll refer you to your own quote here. >"My time here is part of the duties as Net.Rep., so it is yours to >spend >(at least as long as I'm answering. If I stop answering a given >thread, you'll know that you're overdrawn at the LSJ Time Bank :-)" In other words, ...it's his job to answer you. > So, as you can understand you had no right to offend me, basing >your act on your estimation that my tenacity to support my case was >out of line. LSJ had the authority and the free will to tell me to >shut up, he wasn't in need of your "divine" intervention. I have never seen LSJ tell someone to shut up about on-topic posts. It is possible that he may be the only person here who does NOT have the authority to tell someone to shut up about V:TES, because he is the net.rep; again, it's his job to answer V:TES questions. Whether he wanted you to shut up is totally his business; you can waste your time asking him, but he likely won't answer (and I haven't spoken to him about the subject, because again, it's his business, not mine). I make my own decisions for my own reasons, not because I think LSJ needed "saving"; he is perfectly capable of saving himself. > Finaly, the subject ended with me agreeing with him, after he had >explained to me some things i wasn't aware of. So, cut the crap about >my tenacity on that subject. As i wasn't refusing LSJ's ruling, i was Yeah, it only took you what, a month to figure it out with someone holding your hand the whole way? >discussing and discussing has nothing to do with agreeing, but it has >everything to do with disagreeing. When you agree is the end of In other words, you refused to accept it and insisted that you were right. Thanks for admitting it. >> >You are 33, but you think and behave like a teenager. >> >> Plus, your math is faulty. Amusing. > > i am glad that i am able to amuse you... I am also glad that in >Lasombra's "Who is Who" profile of yours, you say the following: > >"Sometimes I argue because I feel strongly about a point; other times >I will play devil's advocate, or simply debate because a point needs >debating" > >so, what is the case with me ? do you by any chance play the devil >himself this time ? Well, the Lasombra finally did for you what I had really hoped you would do yourself, which is: make a list. IF you had done that, you would've learned for yourself that any general rule on the subject would affect exactly two cards: Lunatic Eruption and Cry Wolf. It is to be hoped that you would have realized at that point just how silly it is to make a rule for two cards out of 2,000. From there, you would have learned something about V:TES, where rulings come from, and why they are made instead of brand-new rules...; a lot more than you have learned by having someone spell it out for you. It's my opinion that you weren't making any effort to learn; instead you were making a lot of effort to argue by shouting that it was silly and repeating previously refuted arguments (witness the number of LSJ's posts that simply state "I addressed this in the other post"). I don't have much patience with people who aren't trying to learn while asking a question. >"I, along with several others, was one of the primary proponents of >the "no card is worthless" theory, often taking my latest deck idea >from what someone had said sucked the week before on the newsgroup" > >Though i haven't been able to find a realistic use for "Gird minions" >and i consider one as realistic if it does not contain a million "if". Weenie computer hack bleed (with optional Conditioning). Actually, any weenie deck, but the above uses it best of all. Typically, your prey will tap out if he thinks all your minions have to hunt next turn -- allowing you to obtain a nice, easy oust for the low cost of only 4 pool. How to arrange this? Just bleed and punch for 1 a lot. The 1-cap version does it best, but there are a number of ways to get a lot of your guys empty - one of them being if you've just played Conditioning on a previous bleed. -- Derek a host is a host from coast to coast and no one will talk to a host that's close unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead

In article <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, geo...@for.auth.gr says... > However don't underestimate the use of this thing, as you don't have > to build a deck around an idea like this. We'll come back to this statement; hold onto it. > But, when you are left with > only one other meth in the game (who has LE on all of his minions), First of all, you have to GET minimum 1 LE on "all of his minions". How many LE is that? at least 2-4, right? Now this unfortunate soul has to happen to be the last guy left in the game. How are you going to guarantee that? How are you going to guarantee him keeping all of his LEs throughout the game too? > you can simply put another LE on each minion to make them stuck. Ok, think about this. That's *another* 2-4 Lunatic eruptions. And the infrastructure to get them through unblocked, defend them against removal and keep blood on your vamps throughout this whole process. This starting to sound more like a "deck built around an idea" or not? (Not to mention you have to have enough LEs to draw them earlier on. So we're talking minimum 6, probably 8-10). > (provided that he is not playing with many minions). Then, as you say, > you have created a blocker that cannot act and you only need a Gambit To play Gambit, you need a VP already. Sure, maybe you can tack a powerbleed module onto 8 lunatic eruptions and maybe get a VP out of it. But then you have to be able to defend attempts to remove them and survive combat afterwards (not to mention the LEs grant a rush, which will eventually be able to be used against you). I'd love to see a decklist for this. -- -Snapcase

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:H6GCQ6Rz...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: >>Thanks for your support about my rights in this group. > > Certainly, you can post a poll in the group. Historically, however, > across many news groups, people posting newsgroups with a subtext that > this is how things should be do very badly. Huh? What has this to do with polls? I don't think you can consider it as "established" that "polls are bad", even if the opinion seems to be a popular one. I think a lot depends on the intent of the poll, what's getting discussed, and where the personality of the group is going to go with it. Just calling for people to post where they stand and why they feel that way seems to spark some useful discussion at time and this is exactly what Usenet is for. Yes, I know all the arguments against them and clearly I agree with them for the most part (why I almost never respond to them myself), but I just don't think it's helpful to trot them out every time someone wants to start a poll. I repeat, let them run their stupid poll, don't participate, and refrain from worrying about what they're intending to do with the results UNTIL they actually try to do something with the results (regardless of what you "know"). Such a policy will be much less likely to result in a long stupid thread full of bad-tempered people growling even if it doesn't communicate your disgust as effectively as it might. Er, if that matters to anyone. Fred

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<qbfip0t7buf7adq68...@4ax.com>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) mumbled something about: > > >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<utcgp01saiiavkqv2...@4ax.com>... > > Alternately, perhaps I just choose not to go into detail about my life > to you. You know you're not entitled to know everything, right? > right, it is your choice. Look, i am tired of fighting, it is first time i do something like this in here and i want to be the last. So, please help me. > > Thank you for acknowledging my contribution, and thank you for agreeing > that you weren't there and have no perception. > you are welcome. > > *snort* I don't think you read very closely, but I already knew that. > Perhaps you should go back and read again. > exactly what ? anyway... > > I refer you to my previous reasons. You're STILL being a tool, and so > you keep hearing about it. > anyway, i just want to ask you nicely to stop this whole fighting that goes nowhere. > > I have never seen LSJ tell someone to shut up about on-topic posts. It > is possible that he may be the only person here who does NOT have the > authority to tell someone to shut up about V:TES, because he is the > net.rep; again, it's his job to answer V:TES questions. > well, i am giving him this right concerning me. > > Yeah, it only took you what, a month to figure it out with someone > holding your hand the whole way? > it just took one posting, where he answered IN DETAIL and i got it. > > In other words, you refused to accept it and insisted that you were > right. Thanks for admitting it. > i was supporting my case with arguments, but please lets stop all this madness. > > Well, the Lasombra finally did for you what I had really hoped you would > do yourself, which is: make a list. IF you had done that, you would've > learned for yourself that any general rule on the subject would affect > exactly two cards: Lunatic Eruption and Cry Wolf. > i knew what the list included (except cry wolf who had slipped my mind, as Lasombra's too) but i didn't make it, as i didn't like the manner in which you asked me to. > > It's my opinion that you weren't making any effort to learn; instead you > were making a lot of effort to argue by shouting that it was silly and > repeating previously refuted arguments (witness the number of LSJ's > posts that simply state "I addressed this in the other post"). I don't > have much patience with people who aren't trying to learn while asking a > question. > i was trying to make a case and even learn if i had something to learn. As it appears, i had and so i did. Don't be that easy to judge and so short-fused. > >"I, along with several others, was one of the primary proponents of > >the "no card is worthless" theory, often taking my latest deck idea > >from what someone had said sucked the week before on the newsgroup" > > > >Though i haven't been able to find a realistic use for "Gird minions" > >and i consider one as realistic if it does not contain a million "if". > > Weenie computer hack bleed (with optional Conditioning). > > Actually, any weenie deck, but the above uses it best of all. > Typically, your prey will tap out if he thinks all your minions have to > hunt next turn -- allowing you to obtain a nice, easy oust for the low > cost of only 4 pool. > > How to arrange this? Just bleed and punch for 1 a lot. The 1-cap > version does it best, but there are a number of ways to get a lot of > your guys empty - one of them being if you've just played Conditioning > on a previous bleed. > interesting, thanks. If there is a card (one wof those that most people think that is worthless) that you'd like my opinion about a use, just ask :)

"carl" <ddca...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message news:<Bw6md.2496$9A.9...@news.xtra.co.nz>... > "Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote > > Q: is my prediction of Derek voting for Bush a political statement ? > > Yes idiot. > > i am through fighting with Derek or anyone else. So please cut the "idiot" crap when you talk about me, ok ? > Votes are only taken: > > 1) During Politcal Actions > > 2) During referendums > > 3) For Bloodhunts > > and (4) selecting which pizza. > (3) = (2), the Bloodhunt is a referendum without a political action... > > > Personally I'm going for (4) at this point. > good apetite :)

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<$8EsxO43...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: > >and who are you to make such a thing ? the google police ? > > You may wish to find out more about the medium you are using. > > Google are *not* Usenet. James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<$8EsxO43...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: > >and who are you to make such a thing ? the google police ? > > You may wish to find out more about the medium you are using. > > Google are *not* Usenet. fine, so what are you trying to say ? that in Google is not acceptable to provide arguments and disagree ? because that's what i was initialy doing... anyway...

Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:<opshiinl...@news.chello.hu>... > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:38:49 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Many people didn't have the cards they needed -- Freak Drive was > > insanely rare, and went for a ridiculous amount of money. Because of > > White Wolf's involvement, think of how many more people have just this > > single card. I could go on and on, but just start with the list of > > Sabbat rares and Sabbat vamps, and keep going. > so, true. And concerning Assamites they have been some steps to the right direction, but there is still need for some good cards. WW is careful about discipline cards released and i hope this will be the case in future expansions. e.g. no Protean card in Gehenna, as protean in my opinion is one of the most versatile and complete disciplines. Assamites, in my opinion, also (except of some ousting power) need one REALLY good combat card. As if you think of it closely, they don't have a combat card that is really that good. e.g. what Quietus combat card do you think is the best ? > > > > I have already addressed the issues with 70+ person tournaments in > > another post. However, what you're REALLY saying here is "the large > > number of people who joined the game have made it hard for me to win, > > because some of them are good". > > Nay. 4 "bad" players can easily randomize the outcome of a table. Or, > seating > 5 "bad" players together will give the same 5 VPs as seating 5 veterans > together. Go figure. It's numbers. > quality of players is an important issue, but this is not due to WW taking over and more players joining. 1 bad player can surely ruin a table with stupid play, but this is another issue. > > In your opinion. And many are not pleased with it at all. How about a > poll? (kidding) > yeah, i'll create one right away... thanks for the idea... :PPP (kidding, too) > Yes, bloodlines is great. i love this set, but there are certain problems with this set and SW. SW was a big set, who contained certain rares that if you gathered many of them you could use them for a powerful effect (Mind Rape, Warghoul, e.t.c.) But the fact that it was a big set and rare distribution problems was leading people to buy a lot of boxes to find the required rares. Ending up giving a lot of money and getting full of C, U, weak rares and can't be able to find the required amount of good ones made many people despair. Bloodlines was also a set, that contained rares that having a lot of made a serious impact in constructing good decks. there were also R1 cards. FN mythical R1 was and is also a problem. With Gehenna, WW seems that have changed this strategy. I believe this is good for the game and i hope it will continue to be this way. I congratulated WW for Gehenna when it was released and i bought it and i congatulate WW again. I have bought 5 boxes of SW and 5 boxes of BL and i still need rares from these sets. In 5 boxes of SW i found only 1 Warghoul and no Mind Rapes. Thank god there are singles sold in reasonable prices and i managed to obtain 4 more Warghouls and 10 Mind Rapes. Anyway, when Gehenna was released i immediately bought 2 boxes and loved the distribution. Yeah, i know it is a small set, but it is not only due to that. The distribution (if i can judge from these 2 boxes and 1 a friend of mine bought) is REALLY great. Additionaly, Gehenna rares are not required in great amounts and this is great. On the other hand, a lot of good and powerful commons, i can keep on going complementing this set. Bottom line: WW helped the game (in my opinion) and the path that seems to follow right now, is a good one. The only thing that i don't really like about the current state of things, is that WW seems to have selected a strategy of frequent set releases. In my opinion, this frequency should be set at 2 sets/year (at most), 1 set/year would be better in my opinion. But if it comes to 3 sets/year, then this won't be good. > > Yeah, you must've conducted a poll. ;) > i took care of that, don't worry ;) > > > You, I think, should quit if you hate it so much. Bye! > Yeah, i agree. Quit and don't forget to donate all your cards to me, right ? ;) > > Yes. Now we have Brinksmanship as a completely new ousting mechanism > (along with the Slaughterhouse "Millstones" that so many players hate). > good pool gain + Bleeding the vine (+ some suddens) can partialy solve the powerful-Master problem. George.

"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:<qwcmd.97262$bk1.72613@fed1read05>... [ quoted text not captured ] It matters to me, i acompletely agree. and given this opportunity i'd like to apologize for the part i had in creating bad-tempered people, but i was not the only one i had part in this. Anyway, this won't happen again.

In message <qwcmd.97262$bk1.72613@fed1read05>, Frederick Scott <dont...@mymail.com> writes: >"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message >news:H6GCQ6Rz...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... >> In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, >> Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: >>>Thanks for your support about my rights in this group. >> >> Certainly, you can post a poll in the group. Historically, however, >> across many news groups, people posting newsgroups with a subtext that >> this is how things should be do very badly. > >Huh? What has this to do with polls? I don't think you can consider it >as "established" that "polls are bad", even if the opinion seems to be a >popular one. The typical cry during arguments in which you are the "lone voice of reason" or somesuch is that "The lurkers support me in e-mail." This is generally intended to show that you are not, in fact, alone but are speaking on behalf of the oppressed masses who won't dare to speak out against the Evil Maintainers of the Status Quo. It may also help for you to note that I am *not* saying that polls are bad. Polls can be very good. As you said: >I think a lot depends on the intent of the poll which is - in fact - precisely what I said, giving a specific intent. People posting polls which are the result of a failed debate, and trying to establish that this is how things should be because the lurkers think it's true, historically do very badly. (Please note: This is not an absolute. "Historically" does not mean "In every case ever".) So I'm unsure why you post "Huh?" when you appear to have then re-posted just what I posted in the first place. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: >maybe, but he still needs to learn how to behave, as he was first to offend me. So? You can always not respond in kind, if you feel this is inappropriate behaviour, as opposed to your entirely clueless tantrums in this thread. If you ever wanted to make any sort of constructive change, your childish squealing has done more to dent that attempt than anything else I can think of. Here. Have a lolly. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c6a50f81.0411...@posting.google.com>, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: >James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<$8EsxO43...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... >> In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, >> Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: >> >and who are you to make such a thing ? the google police ? >> >> You may wish to find out more about the medium you are using. >> >> Google are *not* Usenet. > >fine, so what are you trying to say ? > >that in Google is not acceptable to provide arguments and disagree ? That you don't have a clue in what medium you're participating. There is nothing about here that means that you are "in Google". You happen to be using a service that Google provide to access a huge network that is *nothing* to do with them. They just happen to provide one (of thousands) of ways of accessing it. They also archive a lot of it. You would do well to find out more about the medium you are using. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] It isn't Greece? A former post suggested that. But if it isn't Greece, then I don't know *where* it can be. Shit, I'll have to continue searching. ;) -- Bye, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] Please tell me, can you reliably expect people to buy a card game that has lots of specific, different cards and no flavour art? Also note that even the normal, 52 a pack playing cards often have art on their cards. Plus, if you use the art to distinguish between cards, then what's the use of having more kinds of layout/art/whatnot for similar cards? This line of thought really seems to defeat the point. -- Bye, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, I look forward to meeting at the 2005EC, then. -- Bye, Daneel

On 16 Nov 2004 00:26:16 -0800, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote: > Assamites, in my opinion, also (except of some ousting power) need > one REALLY good combat card. I kind of agree. >> Nay. 4 "bad" players can easily randomize the outcome of a table. Or, >> seating >> 5 "bad" players together will give the same 5 VPs as seating 5 veterans >> together. Go figure. It's numbers. > > quality of players is an important issue, but this is not due to WW > taking over and more players joining. 1 bad player can surely ruin a > table with stupid play, but this is another issue. In my opinion a single "bad" player will - most likely - simply get ousted first. > Anyway, when Gehenna was released i immediately bought 2 boxes and > loved the distribution. Yeah, i know it is a small set, but it is not > only due to that. The distribution (if i can judge from these 2 boxes > and 1 a friend of mine bought) is REALLY great. Additionaly, Gehenna > rares are not required in great amounts and this is great. > > On the other hand, a lot of good and powerful commons, i can keep > on going complementing this set. Good points. > Bottom line: WW helped the game (in my opinion) and the path that > seems to follow right now, is a good one. The only thing that i don't > really like about the current state of things, is that WW seems to > have selected a strategy of frequent set releases. In my opinion, this > frequency should be set at 2 sets/year (at most), 1 set/year would be > better in my opinion. But if it comes to 3 sets/year, then this won't > be good. Agree about the set release frequency issue. -- Bye, Daneel

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:F4higrHj...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... >>I think a lot depends on the intent of the poll > > which is - in fact - precisely what I said, giving a specific intent. > People posting polls which are the result of a failed debate, and trying > to establish that this is how things should be because the lurkers think > it's true, historically do very badly. (Please note: This is not an > absolute. "Historically" does not mean "In every case ever".) > > So I'm unsure why you post "Huh?" when you appear to have then re-posted > just what I posted in the first place. I guess it's just that your post didn't make this point as clear as it could have if that was what your getting at. You did make an oblique reference to "people posting newsgroups with a subtext" but in the context it wasn't that clear you meant, "I don't mind polls depending on their intent." (It could have referred to other posts he'd made, for instance.) But even polls to test, "Hey, is anyone else having a problem with this rule? Am I crazy or what?" doesn't strike me as being automatically bad, either. Perhaps it could be started in a better way that doesn't push peoples' buttons about being disingenuous (whether intended that way or not). You have to accept the possibility that a bunch of people WILL tell you you're crazy. Fred

> Plus, if you use the art to distinguish between cards, then what's the > use of having more kinds of layout/art/whatnot for similar cards? I'm just telling you why there was art there in the first place. Can't remember where I read it though, it might have been in the original Jyhad rulebook... --> J

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<r7CZQrIv...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, > Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: > >maybe, but he still needs to learn how to behave, as he was first to offend me. > > So? > > You can always not respond in kind, if you feel this is inappropriate > behaviour, as opposed to your entirely clueless tantrums in this thread. > > If you ever wanted to make any sort of constructive change, your > childish squealing has done more to dent that attempt than anything else > I can think of. > > Here. Have a lolly. no thanks, i'll think i'll pass. Well that's your personal opinion and is full of shit if you ask me.

On 16 Nov 2004 00:26:16 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) scrawled: >e.g. what Quietus combat >card do you think is the best ? Silence of Death. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

In message <c6a50f81.0411...@posting.google.com>, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: >Well that's your personal opinion and is full of shit if you ask me. Watch how little change is made as a result of your squealing. Watch how the official rules authority has moved into threatening to kill-file people *because of you*. It may be worth noting at this point that I and others here have worked many times in the past towards making constructive changes in the rules- set of V:TES, so we may have some vague clue as to how to handle such things well and how to handle such things badly. You are handling things badly. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:23:09 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Any (non-forged) post following up to this post (in any manner), or any > (non-forged) post posted after 12:01 am EST (GMT-0500) Tue Nov 16, 2004 > containing any political reference (including "not me" and "I agree") > will earn the poster the inaugural spot in my brand new killfile. What is a "killfile", exactly? To layman ears it sounds unpleasently like "deathlist". Now, I'm pretty sure (or at least hope) that LSJ won't send assassins after me if I write some political reference. Not that I want to, I'm just curious what the repercussions of such action would be. -- Bye, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] A killfile is a file containing certain patterns (in this case, it would be a From: header line with a particular email address or username) that your newsreader references when downloading messages from your usenet server. Any message matching the pattern is silently removed/trashed before you even see the subject line or anything else about it. (You need a real newsreader to do this -- some newsreaders, and certainly all web-based interfaces to the usenet, do not have such a feature.) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<raFJoWgz$wmB...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <c6a50f81.0411...@posting.google.com>, > Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: > >Well that's your personal opinion and is full of shit if you ask me. > > Watch how little change is made as a result of your squealing. Watch > how the official rules authority has moved into threatening to kill-file > people *because of you*. > already apologized, this won't happen again. But surely all these things were not completely due to me, others contributed to this as well. > It may be worth noting at this point that I and others here have worked > many times in the past towards making constructive changes in the rules- > set of V:TES, so we may have some vague clue as to how to handle such > things well and how to handle such things badly. > > > You are handling things badly. i won't from now on. I will be more careful, but you also must be less short-fused and more polite to people in here. No need to provoke anyone.

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:07:07 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Daneel wrote: >> On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:23:09 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >>> Any (non-forged) post following up to this post (in any manner), or any >>> (non-forged) post posted after 12:01 am EST (GMT-0500) Tue Nov 16, 2004 >>> containing any political reference (including "not me" and "I agree") >>> will earn the poster the inaugural spot in my brand new killfile. >> >> What is a "killfile", exactly? To layman ears it sounds unpleasently >> like >> "deathlist". Now, I'm pretty sure (or at least hope) that LSJ won't send >> assassins after me if I write some political reference. Not that I want >> to, I'm just curious what the repercussions of such action would be. > > A killfile is a file containing certain patterns (in this case, it would > be a From: header line with a particular email address or username) that > your newsreader references when downloading messages from your usenet > server. Any message matching the pattern is silently removed/trashed > before you even see the subject line or anything else about it. (You > need a real newsreader to do this -- some newsreaders, and certainly > all web-based interfaces to the usenet, do not have such a feature.) Thank you very much! That's a cool function. I'll check my newsreader. No more sadism spam... -- Bye, Daneel

In message <c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>, Jyhad_addict <geo...@for.auth.gr> writes: > i won't from now on. I will be more careful, but you also must be >less short-fused and more polite to people in here. No need to provoke >anyone. It may be worth pointing out that if you expect people to be "less short-fused and more polite", yelling at them, telling them their opinions are shit and dragging in politics and then pretending that you were just doing it for some desire to make a prediction[0] is unlikely to help. I would posit that it is *you* who needs to be less short-fused and more polite. You may care to review the thread and see the points at which lots of people have provided simple, direct, helpful advice which you chose to ignore in favour of your childish antics. Go through the thread and see the points at which you started ranting, raving and being wildly offensive. Observe that I did not do similar. Additionally, if you find being told that you are behaving badly to be "impolite", consider how the rest of feel about your behaving like that in the first place. If you wish to avoid such happening again, rectify your own behaviour. Don't lecture those of us who already know how to avoid hysterical behaviour of the sort you have exemplified. [0] Which, if nothing else, makes you look simply foolish as it is clearly untrue. [ quoted text not captured ]

geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) wrote in message news:<c6a50f81.04111...@posting.google.com>... > Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:<opshiinl...@news.chello.hu>... > e.g. what Quietus combat card do you think is the best ? They all suck, but if I had to pick one: Thin Blood

> > > > quality of players is an important issue, but this is not due to WW > > taking over and more players joining. 1 bad player can surely ruin a > > table with stupid play, but this is another issue. > > In my opinion a single "bad" player will - most likely - simply get > ousted first. > possibly, but it is possible that before getting ousted, will ruin the game of the player sitting opposite him (in a 4 players table) by not being able to "hurt" efficiently the other guy's predator, or defend himslef efficiently against the other guy's prey.

salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<tr1mp0lsqbtsgq0mu...@4ax.com>... > On 16 Nov 2004 00:26:16 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) > scrawled: > > >e.g. what Quietus combat > >card do you think is the best ? > > Silence of Death. > AH rare! that gives you first strike and a maneuver for the cost of 1 blood. you can use Shadow feint for an equal and sometimes better effect. 1 blood for first strike undodgeable (CEL OBF) and it is a Bloodlines' U.

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@eris.io.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.041115...@eris.io.com>... > > Unless I lose my job (improbable) think again, 'cause i am hearing otherwise from your boss :P or have a terrible time at the EC2004 > (impossible!), i am not so sure about you having a good time at EC2004, given the fact that you will be without a job :P

On 18 Nov 2004 00:34:58 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] But with silence of death i get a maneuver. and i only need 1 discipline. and i get a maneuver. if you're playing a hand or melee weapon deck having a maneuver as a 'cherry on top' of a card you want to play anyway is...well, sweet. if i had any SoDs (heh), i'd be playing a Bazajet (Bajazet? you know the guy) and thetmes and weeny-ish qui guys with sengir and kali's etc. or just thetmes and IG and SoD (heh). [ quoted text not captured ]

jeff...@hotmail.com (Jeff Kuta) wrote in message news:<621dd332.04111...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I may have to agree on that one, but IMO they suck coz you can't win by using only one, two, or three types of quietus cards (not like dominate or presence). A combination of quietus combat cards will lead to a 45% chance of winning a game. That's why I use their outside disciplines such as auspex, presence, fortitude and dominate to give assurance for at least one VP. :)

salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ff5pp0l0v1mi2p7n8...@4ax.com>... > On 18 Nov 2004 00:34:58 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) > scrawled: > > >salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<tr1mp0lsqbtsgq0mu...@4ax.com>... > >> On 16 Nov 2004 00:26:16 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) > >> scrawled: > >> > >> >e.g. what Quietus combat > >> >card do you think is the best ? > >> > >> Silence of Death. > >> > > > >AH rare! that gives you first strike and a maneuver for the cost of 1 blood. > > > >you can use Shadow feint for an equal and sometimes better effect. > > > >1 blood for first strike undodgeable (CEL OBF) and it is a Bloodlines' U. > > But with silence of death i get a maneuver. and i only need 1 > discipline. and i get a maneuver. if you're playing a hand or melee > weapon deck having a maneuver as a 'cherry on top' of a card you want > to play anyway is...well, sweet. > if i had any SoDs (heh), i'd be playing a Bazajet (Bajazet? you know > the guy) and thetmes and weeny-ish qui guys with sengir and kali's > etc. > or just thetmes and IG and SoD (heh). > and you would terribly loose during tournament play. Don't get me wrong, i really love the Assamites, but they are weak. Quietus is a combat focused discipline without even having a great combat card. A card that gives you a maneuver and first srtike, cannot be compared with Horrid Form for example.

On 19 Nov 2004 03:04:35 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] what the fuck? what does winning tournaments have to do with the best quietus combat card? you're not going to win tournaments using quietus combat. so we can just ignore that right now. assumption: you shoot yourself in the foot and want to play quietus combat. question: what is the best quietus combat card? answer: (in my opinion) silence of death. poiting out all these things about how bad you'll go in a tournament and what non-quietus cards are better or how it's a AH only rare has nothing to do with the question that you posed. [ quoted text not captured ]

salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3811q0hm1igc3fkbq...@4ax.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Well, my question had a "secret" meaning as Derek would have pointed out if he was reading this thread. As Derek would said, i tricked you into answering that the best quietus card is Silence of Death, to prove that one of the most combat oriented discipline (Quietus) has as best card Silence of Death. While Protean has many better combat cards, Potence too, Vicissitude too, e.t.c. So, you can clearly see that Quietus needs one more great combat card. As, when most people play the Assamites, they like kicking some buts, but it is difficult when your best Quietus card is Silence of Death. So, maybe instead of leting out cards that give you +1 bleed against your prey, if a minion of your prey hunted last turn or recruited a goblin (irrelevant, but plain funny if you ask me), they could release a serious Quietus combat card. Don't you think that it will give an incetive to play the Assamites ? George

geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) writes: > As, when most people play the Assamites, they like kicking some > buts, but it is difficult when your best Quietus card is Silence of > Death. > > So, maybe instead of leting out cards that give you +1 bleed > against your prey, if a minion of your prey hunted last turn or > recruited a goblin (irrelevant, but plain funny if you ask me), they > could release a serious Quietus combat card. But Assamites already have exellent combat-related cards. Such as Clandestine Contract, Khabar: Honor and Provision of the Silsila. And then there are Obfuscate and Celerity cards: Disguised Weapon, Psyche!, Blur, Pursuit,... And the special abilities of Fatima and Tariq, perfect for one-man-show decks. Assamites have no trouble killing minions. Their Achilles' heel lies in: "We have killed the vamp. Now what?" -- hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience, iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey

On 22 Nov 2004 10:55:47 +0200, h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid (Janne Hägglund) scrawled: [snip] > Assamites have no trouble killing minions. Their Achilles' heel lies in: >"We have killed the vamp. Now what?" some special assamite or qui card that does pool damage when you toast a minion could be some sort of combat card that helps them oust people, i guess. [ quoted text not captured ]

h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid (Janne Hägglund) wrote in message news:<m3hdnig...@nothung.homelinux.net>... > geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) writes: > > > As, when most people play the Assamites, they like kicking some > > buts, but it is difficult when your best Quietus card is Silence of > > Death. > > > > So, maybe instead of leting out cards that give you +1 bleed > > against your prey, if a minion of your prey hunted last turn or > > recruited a goblin (irrelevant, but plain funny if you ask me), they > > could release a serious Quietus combat card. > > > But Assamites already have exellent combat-related cards. Such as > Clandestine Contract, Khabar: Honor and Provision of the Silsila. > And then there are Obfuscate and Celerity cards: Disguised Weapon, Psyche!, > Blur, Pursuit,... And the special abilities of Fatima and Tariq, perfect for > one-man-show decks. > all the cards you are mentioning are non-Quietus. I am talking about Quietus cards. So, by mentioning as great cards, cards that are non-Quietus, i believe you are strengthening my point. > Assamites have no trouble killing minions. Their Achilles' heel lies in: > "We have killed the vamp. Now what?" Oh yeah ? what about Animalism-Potence combat ? (DotB + IG) finaly, consider that you need a lot of cards to make your celerity-quietus combat to work. Anyway, i am not saying that Assamites suck in combat, so please don't drag me in this discussion, as it is a different one. What i am saying is that i would really like to see a new Quietus combat card (in Kindred most Wanted propably) that would strengthen their combat prowess. (e.g. a good close range hand strike that won't require a contract or something like this). George

geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) writes: > Anyway, i am not saying that Assamites suck in combat, so please > don't drag me in this discussion, as it is a different one. What i am > saying is that i would really like to see a new Quietus combat card > (in Kindred most Wanted propably) that would strengthen their combat > prowess. (e.g. a good close range hand strike that won't require a > contract or something like this). Okay. I read this: > > > As, when most people play the Assamites, they like kicking some > > > buts, but it is difficult when your best Quietus card is Silence of > > > Death. And I interpreted it as "It's difficult to kick butt, because Quietus sucks." Which I disagree with. Because Clandestine Contracts and superior Celerity kick serious butt. [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: >> Assamites have no trouble killing minions. Their Achilles' heel lies in: >>"We have killed the vamp. Now what?" > some special assamite or qui card that does pool damage when you toast > a minion could be some sort of combat card that helps them oust > people, i guess. I'm not sure what the original poster meant, but I percieve "kill" as something beyond torporing. Assamites can torpor minions just fine, but you can't just leave it there due to the presence of an inherent action that says "undo those 5 cards you just played with this cardless action that you can't block", and they've got that 0 point disad preventing them from doing the obvious followup. So they need extra things, like burning, Graverobbing, Anathema, Carvers, Torpid Blood, weenies to diablerize, etc. etc. And I don't think they need any more cards to generate pool damage from combat. All those cards are there. It's more a strategic problem such as is being discussed in the Rush thread, where demoralized players see a slim chance to come back later if they stop playing the game now. -- David Cherryholmes

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:24:38 -0500, David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote: > I'm not sure what the original poster meant, but I percieve "kill" as > something beyond torporing. Assamites can torpor minions just fine, but > you can't just leave it there due to the presence of an inherent action > that says "undo those 5 cards you just played with this cardless action > that you can't block", and they've got that 0 point disad preventing > them from doing the obvious followup. So they need extra things, like > burning, Graverobbing, Anathema, Carvers, Torpid Blood, weenies to > diablerize, etc. etc. Well, they DO have obfuscate which hosts Sacraficial Lamb. For just one additional card you get an action that is in most cases far better than diablerie. I'm currently gazing at the Quietus combat cards and have to agree that Quietus, the supposed combat trump is a little iffy at best. All these "not usable during the first round" and "only usable at long range" (or close range, for that matter) clauses turn promising cards mediocre. Now, I absolutely love Flash + Blood Sweat, but that does not change a thing. Assamites are weak in combat because their discipline just does not deliver. What do Assamites need? This card: Name: Print me ASAP Type: Combat Requires: Quietus (+ Celerity) Cost: None Text: qui: Maneuver qui + cel: Srtike: dodge, or Maneuver, with an optional Strike: dodge. qui + CEL: As above, and if this minion uses the dodge supported by this card, he or she gets an additional strike. Or this: Name: I'm needed badly Type: Combat Requires: Quietus (oh yeah baby) Cost: 1 pool Text: qui: Strike: 1 aggravated non-preventable ranged damage. QUI: Strike: 2 aggravated non-preventable ranged damage. > And I don't think they need any more cards to generate pool damage from > combat. All those cards are there. Without trying to whine, I'd point out that generating pool damage from torporizing vampires is still far from being a bed of roses. You need at least as much setup for being effective in combat as you need for being effective with bleeds or votes, plus the extra needed to translate your efforts into partial VPs (=Pool Damage). > It's more a strategic problem such as is being discussed in the Rush > thread, where demoralized players see a slim chance to come back later > if they stop playing the game now. Yeah, and there's also the strategic problem of having a hand size of 7. You have a Rush, something to actually get you there, something to fix the Range, something to Hit Hard, something to avoid Hitback, something to get the blood back (okay, Taste), and you're at 6 cards out of a hand size of seven! You MUST drop portions in order to be competitive. You either circumvent the 'get your rush through' and 'avoid hitback' and go weenie, or you use an AR that more or less solves you 'Range' and 'Hit Hard' issues, (effectively going multirush), but you are pretty far from being able to rely on your midcaps (who are basically half of the clan for Assamites). -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > Well, they DO have obfuscate which hosts Sacraficial Lamb. For just one > additional card you get an action that is in most cases far better than > diablerie. Many of the best Assamites don't have Obfuscate at all, and you need OBF for SL to be useful for our purposes. Fire up your favorite deck building program and search, and you'll see that Fatima is the first real hitter who also can play SL. <snip Quietus card suggestions> > Without trying to whine, I'd point out that generating pool damage from > torporizing vampires is still far from being a bed of roses. You need at > least as much setup for being effective in combat as you need for being > effective with bleeds or votes, plus the extra needed to translate your > efforts into partial VPs (=Pool Damage). It's perfectly fine that you need at least as much set up to do pool via combat as via bleed. In fact, it *should* be the case that you need more set up or, at least, in the final analysis it should be harder. This is because while you are doing pool damage you are also removing minions. It would hardly be fair to expect rush or intercept combat to generate pool damage equivelant to a voting or bleeding deck. Now, I do think that the capacity to generate pool damage was too low for a long time, but that has been rectified. *The* design obstacle here is getting your prey to put three vampires on the table, and staying alive while they do it. Staying alive may be particularly difficult because the surest way to entice your prey into cooperating is to give them no hint as to your actual strategy, and this can leave you defenseless to whatever your predator is doing. So, that's a tough condition to satisfy, but let's just imagine you've done so, one way or another. Now, I don't want to get pie in the sky and postulate some dreamy perfect game for the combat deck, so let's just go with the two best sources of pool damage: Fame and Dragonbound. You hold both in your hand, and then you lunge with three rush actions forward, or perhaps three blocks (though that is more dependent on your prey's activity). Let's assume that each combat achieves a torpor, since ostensibly you've hurled your deck at exactly this, and in all probability they've not hurled their deck towards "never die in combat". So, all things being equal, it's not too stilted to say you win these fights. So, Fame in your master phase, three rushes, and drop dragonbound at the end, and what have we got? 3 from the fame, then 1 more from the fame in his untap that nobody can do anything about, then 3 more in his discard phase. 7 pool for starters is not too shabby, and he's already spent a reasonable sum in fielding 3 minions, and he's going to take 4 per turn after this. Your prey is now pinned down and hemhorraging to death. If you do exactly nothing more in his direction for the rest of the game, he'll take 4 per turn, and die. All you have to do is stay alive, so rushing backstream is perfectly sensible. Further, since your prey doesn't really require any more attention, you are unhooked to counter-rush anyone who attempts to rescue him, without letting up on your prey in any practical sense. While 4 pool/turn may not seem like a great number, you should really only have to guard his corpse for one to two turns before he's dead. Given that your deck also has the ability to erase minions, that seems like more than enough forward momentum to me. Again, I don't want to downplay the difficulty of maneuvering your prey into the position of having three minions, given the not unreasonable knee-jerk most players exhibit when they realize what they are facing, but once the criteria is satisfied it's pretty reasonable to say you can get them in 2 or 3 turns afterwards, and after that you just have to live. > Yeah, and there's also the strategic problem of having a hand size of 7. > > You have a Rush, something to actually get you there, something to fix the > Range, something to Hit Hard, something to avoid Hitback, something to get > the blood back (okay, Taste), and you're at 6 cards out of a hand size of > seven! You MUST drop portions in order to be competitive. You either > circumvent the 'get your rush through' and 'avoid hitback' and go weenie, > or you use an AR that more or less solves you 'Range' and 'Hit Hard' > issues, > (effectively going multirush), but you are pretty far from being able to > rely on your midcaps (who are basically half of the clan for Assamites). I advocate Short Chain Combat styles, personally, but I don't think you need to eat up a card slot in target acquisition. There are plenty of ways to pay some service to the goal without denting your deck construction too much, but in the scenario I outlined above, targets is targets. But generally, yes, the amount of card flow combat requires is one of its limiting factors. Design around it. -- David Cherryholmes

Daneel wrote: > Without trying to whine, I'd point out that generating pool damage from > torporizing vampires is still far from being a bed of roses. You need at > least as much setup for being effective in combat as you need for being > effective with bleeds or votes, plus the extra needed to translate your > efforts into partial VPs (=Pool Damage). There's also this discussion archived on www.thepathofblood.com, discussing the magnitudes of pool damage rush decks might generate and under what conditions. The link puts you on the right page, and you should look for The Scribe's post where he lays out some turn by turn progressions for various cards played by themselves and in combination. http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2A335AD9 -- David Cherryholmes

>What do Assamites need? This card: Some cards I'd consider first: Gate to Alamut Action Cost = 1b <qui>: D bleed with +2 bleed. <QUI>: +1 stealth action. Move three blood from the blood bank to a younger vampire in your uncontrolled region. Derision Reaction Cost = 1b <qui>: Only usable when you are being bled. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the one controlling the minion bleeding you. The acting minion is bleeding that Methuselah. <QUI>: As above, but do not tap this vampire. Enervating Mosaic Combat Cost = 0 <qui>: Strike: combat ends. <QUI>: As above, and untap this vampire. Yes, I'm being both serious and sarcastic. Once again - if all Assamites get is more offensive combat, at best, all you've created is an ubercombat clan. You make the game better by giving clans multiple solid options rather than one superoption.

On 23 Nov 2004 18:54:23 GMT, Curevei <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote: > Yes, I'm being both serious and sarcastic. Once again - if all > Assamites get > is more offensive combat, at best, all you've created is an ubercombat > clan. > You make the game better by giving clans multiple solid options rather > than one > superoption. Yeah, well you're right - in theory. In fact, WW agrees with you (FN had a bunch of cheap clones for the "top of the curve" Quietus combat cards, and then moved on to give other effects to the discipline). The problem is, Quietus is just not good enough for its primary use. I mean, Quietus is supposed to be this fearsome discipline that makes the Assamites the best fighters among the kindred, and a lot of cards support that cliché. Surely, the contract-related cards like Contract, Clandestine Contract, Khabar: Honor, Provision of Silsila are awesome. Any clan with two decent combat disciplines would become monsters simply thanks to those cards. Fact is, Quietus just isn't that good. The whole Assamites with Quietus thing is unwieldy. And I don't even want to go into their clan weakness. First, Quietus is almost unusable in itself. It's nowhere compared to Potence. Potence has quick maneuvers, Immortal Grapple, some good ranged strikes and all the hand damage in the world. The only thing Quietus combat has that Potence lacks is unpreventability - but then, Potence gets around everything except prevention, when Quietus can't beat anything else. Potence also stacks remarkably well. Further, you need maneuvers for the best Quietus applications. Good, for you have Celerity. Bad thing is, you must enslave a great combat discipline to be able to use Quietus properly. You waste an action, a Flash and a Blood Sweat only to need to play Psyche! and start all over again. Granted, Celerity is strongest when properly combined with either a combat discipline, or "Stuff That Does At Least 2 Damage", but Quietus is still one of the poorer choices. If Quietus had a card half as good as Carrion Crows or Immortal Grapple, I'd reconsider. But currently you have very little incentive to use Quietus cards in your decks (except for some acute cases of Assamitis). -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:<opshxowv...@news.chello.hu>... [ quoted text not captured ] There's always the option of playing a non- (or light-) combat Quietus deck. Blood deprivation works just fine, especially in an AUS/QUI deck. Smiling Jack and stuff to pester their hunts into a useless tapping exercise, combines with just enough combat to torporize the occasional vampire you block. Not everything can be Misdirected, after all. Add fortitude to taste - there's a crypt out there that supports it, I think. Trying to work with the 3 basic Assamite clan disciplines alone, on the other hand, seems rather pointless to me if you actually care about winning competitive games. Regards, Patrick Columbus, OH

Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:<opshxowv...@news.chello.hu>... [ quoted text not captured ] exactly!!!! so true... i am also saying these things for some time now. Giving a discipline versatility is good, but Quietus is still too weak to be compared with other combat disciplines. If you also consider that there are combat disciplines that are more versatile than Quietus and still have better combat cards than quietus, you can understand that Quietus needs, among other stuff, one powerful combat card. Try and compare Quietus to Protean... haha... let me laugh... So, when we Assamite-lovers are capable of openly saying that Silence of Death is not any more our best Quietus card, then we would be happy. Finaly, i will risk to make a prediction, that my thoughts, Daneel's thoughts and some more who agree with us, will come true with Kindred Most Wanted. It is true that WW made clear that had intentions to make Quietus more versatile with BH and Gehenna. But this was (in my opinion) due to many people complaining about Assamites having too little ousting power. I believe that WW will understand (not by me saying this, but by playing experience) that 1 more good quietus combat card is needed. As WW understood that there was no reason to release another protean card in Gehenna, as Protean is one of the most complete disciplines. Disciplines with such good cards, set high standards for the cards that will follow. This was not the case with vic, as Starvation of Marena was something that Tzimisce were lacking. So, Carrion Crows, free maneuvering with Chiropteran and Starvation from long range with a press... why not ? I am not saying that Starvation of Marena is a very powerful card that Tzimisce needed more than anything. I am just saying that it is a lovely new card, that does something useful, something that Tzimisce couldn't do. It is a nice card that you can easily include in your deck and play... Back to Assamites and the non-combat oriented cards that were released. Did that help ? The few cards that were not focused on combat ? i say yes, but truly yes only if combined with dom. (i am talking about deed the heart's desire, as Songs of the distant vitae i don't even want to comment on... I can't help it, i'll comment on SotdV, so i don't want to be harsh, but if you think that Assamite decks usualy have to be fast not to get ousted, you don't have the priviledge to sit back and wait for your prey to hunt or diablerize to use your fancy new Gehenna card. lets get serious, this is a card that does not REALLY help assamites) What Assamites really need, is some more vampires with dom and a great Quietus combat card, that can use at close range, without having to use 45 maneuvers. I say close range card, because Assamites do not lack good long range combat cards. Additionaly, they have enough tricky stuff they can use (Wave of Lethargy, Silence of Death, Veil of Silence, Shadow Feint), so i believe that a 1st round close range combat card would really help a lot. In addition to the above mentioned ways, it could help by simply reducing the combat cards Assamites would need to conduct a decent combat, so as to leave enough space for other discipline cards (dom, obf, aus, or whatever anyone feels that is helpful). George

sam...@hotmail.com (Patrick van der Reest) wrote in message news:<92081c66.04112...@posting.google.com>... > > There's always the option of playing a non- (or light-) combat Quietus > deck. Blood deprivation works just fine, especially in an AUS/QUI > deck. Smiling Jack and stuff to pester their hunts into a useless > tapping exercise, combines with just enough combat to torporize the > occasional vampire you block. Not everything can be Misdirected, after > all. Add fortitude to taste - there's a crypt out there that supports > it, I think. > > Trying to work with the 3 basic Assamite clan disciplines alone, on > the other hand, seems rather pointless to me if you actually care > about winning competitive games. > > agreed, but what me and Daneel here saying is not that Assamites doesnot have options. We are talking about Quietus as a discipline and not about Assamites in General. So, what about Quietus, do you agree with us that its combat prowess needs improving, compared with other combat disciplines ? George

h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid (Janne Hägglund) wrote in message news:<m3mzx8e...@nothung.homelinux.net>... > geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) writes: > > > Anyway, i am not saying that Assamites suck in combat, so please > > don't drag me in this discussion, as it is a different one. What i am > > saying is that i would really like to see a new Quietus combat card > > (in Kindred most Wanted propably) that would strengthen their combat > > prowess. (e.g. a good close range hand strike that won't require a > > contract or something like this). > > Okay. I read this: > > > > > As, when most people play the Assamites, they like kicking some > > > > buts, but it is difficult when your best Quietus card is Silence of > > > > Death. > > And I interpreted it as "It's difficult to kick butt, because Quietus > sucks." > > Which I disagree with. Because Clandestine Contracts and superior Celerity > kick serious butt. You said it, Clandestine Contracts and superior celerity (i imagine that you mean these in addition with weapons, khabar:honor, e.t.c.), not Quietus. Quietus only helps you kick butt with other Assamite cards and other disciplines. It doesnot kick butt, as it should. George

>> Yes, I'm being both serious and sarcastic. Once again - if all >> Assamites get >> is more offensive combat, at best, all you've created is an ubercombat >> clan. >> You make the game better by giving clans multiple solid options rather >> than one >> superoption. > >Yeah, well you're right - in theory. In fact, WW agrees with you (FN >had a bunch of cheap clones for the "top of the curve" Quietus combat >cards, and then moved on to give other effects to the discipline). I wouldn't say WW agreed with me. The greatest failure of FN was how much it didn't help elevate the Assamites because it printed a bunch of redundant cards to cards that weren't that useful in the first place. Compare with Ravnos and Chimerstry where the blood cost reduction effects catapulted the Ravnos, who were arguably worse than the Assamites previous to FN, into playability. Chimerstry's needs were addressed, Quietus's were largely ignored. Then, since, we've gotten Deed with no back up for it and Approximation of Loyalty which does similar things reducing the desire to stretch oneself to play with Deed. We've gotten Songs which is just sad in comparison to good cards in the game. To clarify, my point involved "solid" options not just more any old options. >The problem is, Quietus is just not good enough for its primary use. >I mean, Quietus is supposed to be this fearsome discipline that makes >the Assamites the best fighters among the kindred, and a lot of cards >support that cliché. Surely, the contract-related cards like Contract, >Clandestine Contract, Khabar: Honor, Provision of Silsila are awesome. Best fighters or best assassins? People have brought up this difference before. The two aren't the same. The best fighters in the (old) WoD would likely be considered the Brujah or Gangrel, depending upon whether you wanted explosiveness or staying power. CCG mirrors that reasonably well. >Any clan with two decent combat disciplines would become monsters >simply thanks to those cards. > >Fact is, Quietus just isn't that good. The whole Assamites with Quietus >thing is unwieldy. And I don't even want to go into their clan weakness. I don't recall saying anything besides how Quietus is the worst nonbloodline discipline in the game. I don't see any problem with constantly pointing out that their clan weakness is significant but isn't compensated for. It would have been interesting to see if !Assamites had any weakness, but I guess we will never know unless make your own storyline events have more influence than we'd currently estimate. >First, Quietus is almost unusable in itself. It's nowhere compared to >Potence. Potence has quick maneuvers, Immortal Grapple, some good >ranged strikes and all the hand damage in the world. The only thing >Quietus combat has that Potence lacks is unpreventability - but then, >Potence gets around everything except prevention, when Quietus can't >beat anything else. Potence also stacks remarkably well. Potence being a better combat discipline isn't something that would concern me. I don't see it being the relevant comparison. Potence doesn't do anything besides combat, a problem in itself, while ... Quietus is a signature discipline. Other signature or near signature disciplines include: Protean, Thaumaturgy, Chimerstry, Necromancy, Serpentis, Dementation, Obtenebration, Vicissitude. If you go down to comparing with single clans because for reasons that never made sense to me the !Assamites were never added to the game, you have Chimerstry, Serpentis, Obtenebration, and Vicissitude. Serpentis is weak; even with how good Temptation is and having a few other worthwhile cards, it's weak. Chimerstry is only a problem if you pay full price for it; if you don't, it's one of the best disciplines in the game. The last two were the new Proteans. And, that's the standard I'd put on a signature discipline - it shouldn't be too far away from Protean, a discipline some people consider the best or second best in the game. Protean is a great combat discipline (at least if you include defensive combat where it ranks #1), yet does all sorts of other things. It strikes me as a bit odd that Obt and Vic have gotten filled out so nicely when they started off better in the first place, while the indie signatures tend to get marginal cards (Chimerstry not so much). >Further, you need maneuvers for the best Quietus applications. Good, >for you have Celerity. Bad thing is, you must enslave a great combat >discipline to be able to use Quietus properly. You waste an action, >a Flash and a Blood Sweat only to need to play Psyche! and start all >over again. Granted, Celerity is strongest when properly combined >with either a combat discipline, or "Stuff That Does At Least 2 >Damage", but Quietus is still one of the poorer choices. The "Quietus is the long range combat discipline" concept that the AH designers seemed to be going for was kind of cute. It made the discipline stand out. But, hanging the discipline on that and then expanding upon it in FN rather than addressing real needs was flawed - yes. >If Quietus had a card half as good as Carrion Crows or Immortal Grapple, >I'd reconsider. But currently you have very little incentive to use >Quietus cards in your decks (except for some acute cases of Assamitis). Suppose that Quietus got a Deflection. Couldn't you imagine it seeing a lot more play than if it got a CC or IG? Anyway, I don't think we disagree much if at all on general philosophies, but I like building decks from disciplines and I want to like every discipline. The constant drive to make Quietus better at combat isn't going to make me like the discipline any more. Quietus is really some sort of blood manipulation discipline (even if all of the powers don't seem to, seem to be assassin powers a la ninjustsu). It has combat effects, sure, but vampire blood in the WoD is kind of powerful no matter how it gets used. I was thinking about what might get more interested in the discipline. You know, if it became *the* hunting discipline somehow, that could be interesting. Would have to have more Succulentlike effects rather than Foullike effects to make that worth doing, of course. Does seem like a challenge to get the cards to have a reasonable thematic element. And, how many spins can you do on taking advantage of hunting without the discipline seeming goofy? Or, I'm sure there are ninjutsuesque concepts that could be mined. Plus bleed might be simple to incorporate into cards thematically. Etc.